Conference taveng::bagels

    Israel has much to gain by prosecuting it's own people, if a crime
    was committed.  The two terrorists in question were beaten to death
    after the operation to liberate the bus had been completed; and
    there is the remote possibility that these two may have been
    passengers.
    
    Shin Bet or not, those who were responsible for covering this up
    must be made accountable.  The Likudnikim are all shitting their
    pants because Shamir was PM at the time of the incident, and ultimately
    the PM assumes all responsibility for security operations.
    
    Fred, the Jewish people have to reinforce our tradition of justice
    and responsibility.  Everytime an official steps out of line, and
    reverts to the law of the jungle as practiced by the terrorists,
    we actually lose in this battle.  Just because we are surrounded
    by wild animals doesn't justify animal behaviour on our part.
    
    By the way, according to the weekend edition of Maariv, Avraham
    Shalom might have resigned, but he will remain on in the job for
    several months longer due to "technicalities".
    
    David
    

    
    re: .0
    
    Fred,
    
    	It seems that the terrorists were not killed in the actual
    storming of the bus but during interrogation afterward.
    
    	There are photographs of one of the terrorists being led away
    from the bus by two Israeli soldiers and apart from being dazed
    he looks o.k..
    
    	There is also the possibility that higher ups knew about this
    and covered it up.
    
    David

    Here again is a perfect example of we ourselves being our own worst
    enemy.
    
    There does not exist a country today (US includede) that has not
    committed the most hideous of crimes in the name of national security.
    How many times has the CIA been mentioned in connection with
    assasinations, and subversion, and aiding rebels, and etc. etc.
    
    Has anyone ever even suggested that the head of the CIA resign because
    of these actions?
    
    Why should terrorists be given any rights at all? The allogation
    that these might have been passengers is absurd and idiotic. What
    about the rights of all the people all over the world who have suffered
    due to terrorists? 
    
    How many people, today, resist from traveling due to terrorists?
    What about their rights to move freely?
    
    All this bullshit about rights is one big hipocricy.
    
    Cb.

    Re .2 
    
    Perhaps you missed the point I was trying to get across in my
    note. Your description of the situation, with the exception of the
    two terrorists being innocent bystanders, is probably very
    accurate. However, I see no reason why any Israeli should be
    prosecuted for the death of these two terrorists. 
    
    Re .1
    
    Should Israel pay reparations to the families of the terrorists?
    After all, their civil rights were violated. 
    
    			Fred
    

    Re -1 Kol a kavot

    re: .3 & .4
    
    No one is justifying the terrorists and their acts, not for one
    second was I.  But the point is that the operation was over, nigmar.
    Once the bus was liberated, the surviving terrorists were taken
    prisoner, and the standard procedure should be followed in dealing
    with prisoners-of-war(because that's what they are).
    
    Just because the terrorists revert to animal behaviour doesn't justify
    like action in kind, although a part of us feel that at gut level.
    When one side imitates the other, then there is no distinquishment
    between the two, and they become one.  One of the two pillars that
    holds Israel up(the other being U.S. aid), is that Israel is the
    only functioning democracy in the Middle East.  All the good things
    that distinguish Israel in this world spawn off that fact.  This
    is no idealism, just fact.
    
    I don't know about you but Zahal didn't teach me to shoot
    prisoners-of-war, just to secure them and hand them over to higher
    authorities.
    
    No Fred, I don't think the terrorists' families should be compensated
    for loss of civil rights, more that the passengers should be.  Maybe
    Israel should seriously consider the death penalty if we want to
    avenge our feelings.
    
    David
      

    Re .6
    
    Your right. Standard procedures were not followed. They should
    have been held for ransom first. 8-)
    
    >I don't know about you but Zahal didn't teach me to shoot
    >prisoners-of-war, just to secure them and hand them over to higher
    >authorities.
    
    Would you examine a chazir to see if it's kosher?
    
    			Fred
    

>    Re .6
    
 >   Your right. Standard procedures were not followed. They should
 >   have been held for ransom first. 8-)
    
 >    Would you examine a chazir to see if it's kosher?
    
 >   			Fred
  

Way to go Fred, you missed the entire point of my reply.  Your comment on
Chazirim isn't worth replying to.

David  

    It is not 100% clear that the entire episode had ended when these
    terrorists were killed. According to the testimony of some of the
    soldiers involved there was still the threat that a live bomb had
    been left by the terrorists, and force was being used to get
    information.
    
    Perhaps I am wrong, but I was always under the impression that POW
    status was only to be given to soldiers representing a bona fide
    army and in uniform of that army. A soldier caught without a uniform
    could be shot on the spot.
    
    It should be noted that since this particular incident there has
    been no attempt by terrorist groups to try anything similar in Israel.
    Now noone can say for sure this fact is due to the outcome of this
    episode, however it would appear that there does exist some
    relationship. 
    
    It seems to me that the Shin Bet is attempting to relay the message
    to the terrorists that they will not come out alive of any terrorists
    attempts on Isaeli soil. I believe this message is much more affective
    than instituting the death penalty.
    
    The Shin Bet's primary role is to insure national security. I'm
    certain that all decisions made are well thought out. We are not
    talking about a bunch of idiots. These are men and women who put
    their lives on the line time after time so that I can sleep peacefully.
    
    Even if one disagrees with my major premis, I still think he/she
    should not let this isolated (so far) episode taint the institution
    known as the Shin Bet.
    
    Cb.

    

    The Shin Bet still has the highest estimation in my opinion, probably
    the most effective unit in the defense estabilishment.  People put
    their lives on the line every day, at home and abroad, more often
    than the "uniformed" branches of the IDF.
    
    What irked me about this issue, and this discussion, was the assuming
    of a tone that seemed slightly alien to our character. If you believe
    that your country is always 100% correct in everything it does,
    than this naivete' will lead to disaster further down the road.
    When I said that I was an Aphikorus(one who questions) it wasn't
    just in relation to religion only.
    
    David 

    Re .8 
    
    >>Would you examine a chazir to see if it's kosher? 
    >>
    >>    			Fred
    >
    >
    >Way to go Fred, you missed the entire point of my reply.  Your comment
    >on Chazirim isn't worth replying to. 
    >
    
    OK David, let's try an American saying. "Let's give the two terrorists
    a fair trial. Then we'll hang them." Adolf Eichmann got a fair trial
    and then he was executed. I have no doubts that this August when John
    Demjanjuk goes on trial in Israel, he too will get a fair trial. I also
    have no doubts that he will be found guilty and executed regardless of
    how flimsy the evidence against him is. What's the difference? No
    blood?
    
    War is not fought by solders marching on the battle field in full
    dress uniform. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.
    
    			Fred 
    
    BTW - Don't take my remarks personally. They were not directed at you.
    I still feel that the Israelis were justified in their actions. 
    
    

The main thing the Shin-Bet people are blamed of, is not killing
those two terrorists (which is an argument by itself), but lying
in the formal investigations that took place later (how do you
say "vaadat-hakira" in English?).

An army officer was almost put behind bars because he was accused
of the story, while Shin-Bet people apparently lied to the highest
justice authorities in Israel...

As a final comment I would like to emphasize that we all agree how
important and difficult the Shin-Bet work is, and that the above
terrorists deserve an appropriate punishment. The "big" argument
here was "law and justice" vs. "risk security by more investigations".

What do you think?

Nitsan

    Either you have justice for all or justice for none. I do not believe
    there can be a compromise. It is against both our religious and
    political ideals.
    
    Fred, I understand your thought process, I think. Your argument
    of being in a war situation may not be totally applicable to this
    case. My understanding is that the terrorists were killed after
    the hostilities had ended.
    
    Even though they may have been tried, convicted and executed, the
    difference would have been that they would have a trial. Summary
    executions make us look as bad as the terrorists.
    
    I am all for taking a hard line with terrorists, and doing what ever
    needs to be done, but I believe we must preserve our laws, or we
    become no better than the terrorists.
    
    As for coverup and lying to investigators, I believe that the people
    responsible should be punished. There can be no excuse, in a free
    society, for government agencies to deceive duly appointed
    investigating committees. Telling the truth to an investigator does
    not jeopardize state security.
    
    Let me sum up by saying that I understand the temptation to do what
    Shin Bet did, but I can not condone it.
    
    This is just my view, and I am sure there are opposing ones. This
    station will make editorial time available for opposing views.
    
    The Management
    

    nitsan:
    	vaadat hakira translates to board of inquiry.
    
    steve (former oleh-hadash)
    

    Re .12
    
    I think the word you are looking for, Nitsan, is "framed". In one
    of my earlier replies I said that unless information was being
    withheld from the American public there was no reason to prosecute
    any Israeli. Well, it turns out information was held back. It
    seems that the real reason for the investigation is not so much to
    find those responsible for the death of the hijackers, but rather
    who is responsible for the attempted framing of a senior army
    officer! 
    
    If this is the case then these individuals should be prosecuted to
    the fullest extent of the law. There is no excuse, especially in
    time of war, for anyone to take advantage of the situation for
    political gain. It only takes a few narrow minded individuals to
    undermine the efforts of the Israeli government. The acts of these
    people are equivalent to treason, even though they had no contact
    with the enemy.
    
    Below is a short quote from the AP.
    
    "TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) - A special newspaper supplement published
    Friday claims Shin Bet agents dragged two Palestinian hijackers
    from stretchers, beat them to death and then framed a senior army
    general for the killings."
    
     

    In reflecting back upon this whole discussion, I think that there
    was a problem of my speaking on one plane, while Fred and Chaim
    (and others) were on another.  Don't get me wrong, I understand
    from where they are speaking, there is a part of me that is right
    there also.  But what I objected to was the mode of thought that
    seemed a bit alien to our spirit.
    
    About 14 years ago(is it that long?!)I was present in Beit Shean
    when three terrorists were caught inside of an apartment building.
    They were killed, and afterwards some of the townspeople began to
    mutilate the bodies of the dead terrorists.  I'll never forget that
    scene, I walked away from it wondering who were more savage, them
    or us.  After all they were intercepted and killed, and that should
    be the retibution desired, outside of subsequently destroying their
    bases.
    
    Some of you misunderstood me, I never suggested that the terrorists
    receive due process of law.  I don't think prisoners-of-war are
    entitled to that, just let's not adapt someone else's behaviour.
    
    David 

    Re: .16
    
    I'm sure that your experience in Beit Shaan was very traumatic,
    however I don't think one can in any way ask himself who is more
    savage.
    
    The terrorists executed a cold blooded and pre_calculated plan.
    There's cannot be considered by any means a "crime of passion".
    The people who mutilated the terrorists bodies were motivated by
    momentary anger and frustration. Comparison? No way. Try for a moment
    putting yourself in their place. Try to imagine living a daily life
    under the stress and fear of a terrorist attack.
    
    Cb.

    re:-1
    
    I have, so what?  Stress doesn't give one the right to temporarily
    discard one's morals.  I used the same argument back then in trying
    to rationalize and explain the act in a letter to my parents.
    
    David

Associated Press Wed 06-AUG-1986 09:09                        Israel-Shin Bet

                            By ALLYN FISHER
                        Associated Press Writer
   JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel's highest court today upheld the
presidential pardon given the head of the Shin Bet secret service
who allegedly ordered the 1984 killings of two captured Palestinian
bus hijackers.
   The three-judge Supreme Court panel also rejected appeals seeking
a commission of inquiry into allegations of a cover-up of the
killings, indicating that a police investigation into the affair was
sufficient.
   Chief Justice Meir Shamgar and Justice Miriam Ben-Porat ruled
that President Chaim Herzog was empowered to issue the pardon for
national security reasons.
   ``It has been decided unanimously to reject the appeals regarding
the investigation, and a majority has decided to reject the appeals
against the pardon,'' said the one-sentence decision Shamgar read to
packed courtroom.
   In a dissenting opinion, Justice Aharon Barak said Herzog had no
authority to grant a pardon before a suspect has been convicted and
when the nature of the crime is still unclear.
   In documents previously submitted to the court, Shin Bet chief
Avraham Shalom said all his actions were authorized by his
superiors, a statement that appeared to implicate Yitzhak Shamir who
was prime minister at the time.
   Shamir has denied any wrongdoing and said he did not authorize
the killings.
   The prime minister has sole authority over the Shin Bet. Shamir,
leader of the right-wing Likud bloc in the ruling coalition, is now
foreign minister, and is scheduled to trade jobs with Prime Minister
Shimon Peres in October under Likud's powersharing agreement with
Peres' Labor Party.
   The court's decision was welcomed by Likud legislator Dan
Meridor. He said the police probe would produce ``no political
consequences.''
   The court also upheld pardons for three other Shin Bet agents who
were accused of falsifying or withholding evidence during two
earlier inquiries into the beating deaths of the handcuffed
prisoners.
   Israel radio reported that eight more Shin Bet agents involved in
the affair will ask for a presidential pardon. The report did not
elaborate.
   The affair stems from the hijacking by four Palestinians of a
commuter bus from Tel Aviv to the occupied Gaza Strip on April 13,
1984.
   Israeli troops stormed the bus, killing two of the hijackers, and
were seen leading away two prisoners apparently unharmed. A later
announcement said the prisoners died of their wounds. Investigators
determined the two prisoners were beaten to death.
   The affair was twice investigated and surfaced again in May when
then Attorney General Yitzhak Zamir demanded a full-scale probe of
complaints by Shin Bet agents into Shalom's handling of the affair.
   The controversy split the nation between liberals and jurists who
insisted that no one stood above the law, and those who said a probe
would expose Shin Bet's anti-terrorist methods and hinder future
operations.
   Shalom submitted his resignation June 25 after he and three aides
obtained presidential pardon for any crimes that may have been
committed. Herzog's move effectively granting immunity from
prosecution before charges were submitted created a furor.
   Herzog declined comment on the high court decision and said he
would not respond, Israel Radio reported.
   No replacement for Shalom has been announced, and the veteran
agent remains head of the service.
   Left-wing Parliament member Yossi Sarid, whose appeal was
rejected by the court, said he was not disapppointed by the outcome
since the appeals forced the government last month to order a police
inquiry. ``That was our main purpose,'' he told The Associated Press.
   He said he believed the police probe could also uncover any
involvement by Shamir or ``the political level.''

	This discussion involves lot of sensitive issues, but I think the
problem can be reduced to very simple terms:

1.* We have laws, which apply equally to ALL citizens.

  * These laws state, among other things, that:

	- You don't kill unarmed enemies once you've caught them
		(this means ANY kind of enemy which drops his weapons
				and surrenders).
	- You don't lie to judges and other authorities.

  * Whoever breaks the law must be prosecuted.

2. Of course, we all agree that the nature of the crimes these terrorists
comitted against our people is particularly heinous, but our people has long
foregone spontaneous ways of punishment, and left judgement to courts (and I
mean long, long time ago).
   On the other hand, comparing Palestinian terrorists to Nazi criminals shows
a lack of sense of historic and moral proportion. We are here dealing with 
enemies which resort to criminal methods in an otherwise perfectly "normal"
state of war between two people that claim rights to the same land. The fact
that the target of their attacks is mainly our civilian population only shows
the difference between their moral standards and ours (a difference which many
of us are very proud to keep and defend).

3. Regarding the observation by Chaim (.9):
  > ...since this particular incident there has been no attempt by terrorist
  > groups to try anything similar in Israel. 

There's a word missing in this statement: 'SUCCESSFUL'. Attempts have been made,
but thanks to the IDF and the Shin Bet, among other factors, they have been
aborted. In our long fight for existence as an independent nation, we have 
inflicted many casualties to the enemy: terrorists, particularly, can be 
almost 100% sure they won't survive an encounter with our armed forces. However,
this fact has not had any effect in their overall readiness to perpetrate their
attacks (please refer to the facts when dealing with sensitive issues like this,
and understand that gut feelings which can be very justifiable at an individual
level are not so when we are talking about the moral behaviour of a nation and
its institutions).

	Sorry for the lengthy reply. 


		Shalom.
			Avi.

    See topic 977 for a discussion of the new MOSSAD book,
    now prohibited from publication (or sale?) in Canada and USA.
    
    Could anyone describe the nominal differences in function
    between Shin Bet, the MOSSAD, and any other Israeli intelligence
    and/or secret police organizations?
    

.21>    Could anyone describe the nominal differences in function
.21>    between Shin Bet, the MOSSAD, and any other Israeli intelligence
.21>    and/or secret police organizations?

The Shin Bet is responsible for domestic (Israel and the territories)
intelligence activities.  The Mossad is responsible for foreign (the rest of
the world) activities.  This is the same sort of division that exists between
the FBI and CIA.