Conference taveng::bagels

    <set flame on>
    If that's true, then maybe Gore Vidal was right.
    <set flame off>
    
    (Vidal wrote an allegedly anti-Jewish article in The Nation recently,
    which noted that formerly-liberal Jews like Norman Podhoretz and
    Midge Decter have become rabid anti-Communist conservatives lately;
    he attributed this to their desire to get support for Israel out
    of America's right wing power elite which will do anything if you
    say it's anti-Communist.  Podhoretz' rebuttal was syndicated in
    newspapers nationwide.  There's been some discussion in usenet
    net.religion.jewish, but I don't really think we should carry it
    on here.)

    RE: .0 and .1
    
      I don't understand. What's the problem if it's true?
    
                                                             Andy
    

    RE. .2
    
    The problem is that the only thing this argument can be based on
    is pure old Red-baiting.  "The African National Congress has Communist
    Connections".  Big deal.  They have the right to seek help anywhere
    they can, and the "Communist" nations have taken the high road and
    given it to them.  Certainly the US-led bloc hasn't!
    
    I don't know why it's in the ADL newsletter, if in fact it is, but
    if it is, then Gore Vidal's reasoning is validated.  Jewish
    publications are printing right wing red-baiting idiocy, and hoping
    to cultivate support from that faction.  I find it sickening.
    
    I won't comment on the chumminess between the South African regime
    and certain important factions in Israeli politics, but I find that
    sickening too.
    
    (Whatever happened to the good old Worldwide Communist Jewish
    Conspiracy?  ;-] )

    Re .2       
    
    Andy, I simply can't understand your choice of Gore Vadal as a
    mentor. Perhaps you feel the author of the great American literary
    classic "Myra Breckinridge (sp)" must definitely be an authority
    on American Israeli foreign policy.
    
    Here is a short excerpt from the article.
    
    >"Over the years, Poddy has, like his employers, the A.J.C., moved
   >from those liberal positions traditionally occupied by American
   >Jews (and me) to the far right of American politics. The reason
   >for that is simple. In order to get Treasury money for Israel
   >(last year $3 billion), pro-Israel lobbyists must see to it that
   >America's "the Russians are comming" squads are in place so that
   >they can continue to frighten the American people into spending
   >enormous sums for "defense," which also means the support of
   >Israel in its never-ending wars against just about everyone. To
   >make sure that nearly a third of the federal budget goes for the
   >Pentagon and Israel, it is necessary for the pro-Israel lobbyists
   >to make common cause with our lunatic right. Hence, the virulent
   >propaganda." 
    
    In short Vidal is saying that the current anti-Communist tide that
    is sweeping the country is only a Jewish plot to get funds for
    Israel. That's a new one. I always thought all Jews were
    Communists. 8^) 
    
    What Gore Vidal chooses to ignore is the inhumane treatment of
    Soviet Jews by the Communists. If this is right wing politics, so
    be it. 

    				Fred
    

    No, Fred, that's ME, not Andy, who's allegedly using Gore Vidal
    as an authority on foreign policy!  Don't blame Andy!
    
    I believe you've misinterpreted him, though.  He did NOT say that
    anti-Communist lunacy is caused BY pro-Israeli lobbying.  He said
    that some supporters of Israel -- Poddy and Midge, to be specific
    -- have jumped aboard the existing red-baiting bandwagon in order
    to curry favor for the cause.
    
    In .1, I followed up by saying that if Andy's question in .0 were
    accurate, then it would follow that some of the ADL people were
    following Poddy and Midge onto the fringeoid bandwagon.
    
    The situation concerning Soviet Jewry has NOTHING to do with this.
    My grandpa left the Czar's Russian Empire because they didn't like
    Jews.  The Soviets claim to have fixed the problem.  They haven't;
    they just lie about it by their denials.  It's this insane "Well
    the Russians like them so the MUST be evil" us-vs.-them mentality
    that's at the root of so many US foreign policy failures (i.e., 
    Lebanon, Nicaragua, South Africa).
          fred

    I seem to recall the ADL coming up with some trash in trying to
    pin charges of anti-semitism on Nicaragua, which they couldn't verify
    in the end. To say the least, they've come way down in my estimation.
    
    So what if the ANC is receiving aid from the east bloc?  I don't
    see the U.S. or any other western country giving them aid.  Oliver
    Tambo meets with the British foreign ministry, and they tell him
    to cease using violence, what about the violent system of white
    rule in South Africa which is perpetuated and tacitly supported
    by the west?
    
    Re: Israel's relationship to South Africa, you have to keep in mind
    that there are 120,000 Jews still living there, and Israel is walking
    on egg shells in regard to the safety and security of the kehila
    there.  The easiest thing would be for the Jewish community to pick
    up and leave, then there wouldn't be any conflicting interests
    involved.  What I suggest is that all sales in military and technical
    items cease, as far as general trade goes, well the last figures
    I saw were actually miniscule(somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
    
    As far as Norman Podhoretz ande Midge Dichter are concerned, they
    know their tuchus from their face as far as the third world is
    concerned.
    
    David
    

    Please excuse my ignorance of the situation. I've never read anything
    by Gore Vidal or the ADL Magazine either. I was only looking to
    find out if the information printed in the ADL was factual in relation
    to the situation in South Africa.
    
    
                                                       Andy
    

    No need to apologize Andy.  Those of us who are active in this file
    will use any excuse to jump into debates.  I've never seen the alleged
    article by Gore Vidal either.
    
    David