Conference taveng::bagels

    There has never been a restriction on whether you had passed through
    a Conservative or Reform conversion, this is at the crux of the
    issue of "who is a Jew".
    
    I am not a convert, but when I made Aliyah I was asked to produce
    a document(a "mismach") that I was a Jew, and the generations of
    my family were Jewish.  The reason for this was solely in the mind
    of the petty clerk at the office of the interior ministry in Afula.
    In fact a girl from England accompanied me and also applied for
    citizenship, she received it without having to prove her Jewishness.(a
    strange term touse I admit).
    
    Well my parents had to go to the Vaad Harabonim her in Boston, and
    get this mismach.  Needless to say it was a giant pain in the ass.
    
    David 

    I listened to Kol Yisrael agian. Apparently the Interior Minister
    want s to put the word Convert on the identity cards of all converts
    to Judaism. The cabinet is to debate this shortly.
    
    What is the identity card used for? Is it like our drivers licenses;
    used for indentification only, or is there some other use?
    
    I don't know what the Interior Minister's motivation is, but he
    sure will upset a lot of people with this ruling if it passes!
    
    Jack

> What is the identity card used for? Is it like our drivers licenses;
> used for indentification only, or is there some other use?

It is used, for exmaple, when you wanna get married, or (le'havdil) get
burried --- see 103.24

    Hi,
    
    I have no sources but I'm sure that I've been told that it is wrong 
    to refer to the fact that someone is a convert to Judaism. 
    
    Can anyone help fill me in please?
                                  
    
    Malcolm   				IOSG::LEVY    or    LEVY@A1@THRINT
    
    
    

    I don't know what authority you cite.  I do know that there is a move
    to call those who have converted to Judaism "Jews By Choice."  In the
    view of those who use this term (specifically, the Rabbi at my shul in
    Bridgeport, CT) it more accurately describes the nature of such people. 

    I've been off-site for a few days, so I'm trying to catch up with
    all this.  If the interior ministry goes ahead and decides to include
    the reference to conversion, then they should keep in mind a practice
    used by the Nazis during the '30's.
    
    According to my father-in-law, who left Germany then, the Nazis
    altered every Jew's passport to include a "middle" name.  This "middle"
    name was either Isaac or Isidore, therefore the intent was to
    definitely identify the person as a Jew.
    
    Mr. Peretz (interior minister) should remember this practice before
    endorsing the current proposal.  One other fact that he should keep
    in mind, is that American Jews, whether converts or not, are not
    exactly beating down the door to make Aliyah.  Intentionally making
    problems for a convert who wishes to become a citizen is an act
    that defies the very soul of Zionism.
    
    When I lived in Israel I knew many Jewish converts who made Aliyah,
    and to the best of my knowledge, they're still there and I'm back
    here.
    
    David

    If you stab him, does not the Jew bleed ?

    Really, this is kind of silly, isn't everyone a Jew ?

re:  .4

>    I have no sources but I'm sure that I've been told that it is wrong 
>    to refer to the fact that someone is a convert to Judaism. 
>    
>    Can anyone help fill me in please?


	One (not the only) reason:  One does not refer to the fact that
	someone has converted to Judaism in a similar way that one
	doesn't mention that so-and-so is a baal tshuvah, etc.
	
	Why?

	An illustrative example: "Oh, I remember so-and-so before he became
	religious.  He and I used to go out and eat clams and oysters 
	and chase women on Friday nights."

	That could be a totally true statement. However, that sort of statement
	is called "speaking loshon hora", i. e., categorically saying something
	about someone else which IS true but not necessarily complementary,
	so to speak (or worse...). You can see the implications.

	(This doesn't have to be nearly as extreme as the case 
	I made up above. And I'm not implying that saying something about
	someone else which is NOT true is "ok".  That's another subject...)

	There are a fair amount of halacha on this subject.  There are
	a number of good books in English on it as well.

/don feinberg    

    Re. 6.
    The passports (or other identification papers) of women, were altered
    to specify SARAH as a middle name.

    Re: .6
    
    It was really sofistication.  My passport in the USSR just simply
    and modestly said right below my name:  "Jewish".  And no guessing.
    
    Leo

>                          . . . My passport in the USSR just simply
> and modestly said right below my name:  "Jewish".  And no guessing.

Here in Israel, in my ID card, right below my name, I have "Jewish" as well.
Others may have "Arab" for example. One of my friends has "Holland" (Dutch)
under his name.

    Is there a difference in treatment of those who are "Jewish" and
    "Arab" in their ID's?  I am talking about official attitude, from
    the authorities, since I understand that the public in general may
    have their likes, dislikes and just outright prejudices.  Are there
    laws agains racial or national discrimination?  And if yes, how
    effective they are?  In the USSR all people are equal, somehow 
    Jews always have problems within the system.
    
    I am not planning Aliah, but do I want to visit Israel!
    
    Leo 

Let me try to explain (facts not opinions):

o  There are no (and never intended to be) "official discriminations".
   *Basically* we are all equal (I'm not refering just to Jews vs. Arabs,
   but to the subject in general).

o  There ARE differences in treatment of those who are "xxxx" and those
   who are "yyyy", mostly when xxxx=Jewish. The differences are in two
   main categories:

   -  Security. Some jobs (involving national security etc.) are offered
      to "xxxx" much more than to "yyyy", if any. Another side of this
      subject is the service in the army.

   -  Laws handled by the religous authorities (i.e., marriage etc.) may
      be handled by different OFFICIAL authorities for different "xxxx"
      or may cause a lot of difficulties when conflicting with that ID
      data field.

o  Laws agains racial or national discrimination, ahmmm, this is a very
   sensitive subject these days in our "Knesset". They haven't been able
   to pass such law for months now, mainly because of the rejection by the
   religious parties.
 
>  I am not planning Aliah, but do I want to visit Israel!

   Hope you can make it. Note that everything said here was not intended
   to criticize, just to explain.

   Nitsan

    (Back to the subject of several replies ago...)  I don't know if
    it is officially considered incorrect or not, but I think it is
    UNFAIR to someone to constantly point out that so-and-so is a convert
    (Jew-by-choice, or whatever); it labels the person as being
    "different".  I remember having one woman pointed out to me several
    times at the schul my husband used to belong to when he lived in
    Conencticut) as the "only successful convert" the rabbi there claimed
    to have converted (he was a little old man in those days; this was
    an orthodox synagogue, of course).  Poor lady!  I would rather have
    had her introduced to me as "Mrs. So-and-so" rather than simply
    labelled, as if she had any choice over who her mother was.