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Conference taveng::bagels

Title:	BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest
Notice:	1.0 policy, 280.0 directory, 32.0 registration
Moderator:	SMURF::FENSTER

Created:	Mon Feb 03 1986
Last Modified:	Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1524
Total number of notes:	18709

148.0. "Yesterday's Wall Street Journal article - Comments?" by 15748::MAGENHEIM () Thu Jun 19 1986 11:49

The following appeared in the 6/18/86 issue of The Wall Street Journal, and is
reprinted without their permission.

"[4mDangerous Split[0m:  Religious Discord Rises Among Israeli Jews, Spurs Intense 
		  Debate
			---------------------
Ultra-Orthodox Try to Force Their Own Views on All And Stir Up a Backlash
			---------------------
		    Crucial Issue:  Who Is a Jew?
			---------------------		
			  by Gerald F. Seib

JERUSALEM - Henry Tobias moved to Israel to feel comfortable among his people,
the Jews.  Instead, he finds himself under attack by Jews.
	His crime: He put in the window of his little Jerusalem pharmacy an
innocent-looking ad for sunglasses that pictures men and women together in
smiling, cheek-to-cheek poses.
	Ultra-Orthodox Jews living nearby judged the ad promiscuous, even though
Mr. Tobias had carefully papered over the body of one woman and even the lips of
another.  The Ultra-Orthodox have spray-painted the shop's windows twice and 
telephoned threats to torch it.  "I didn't come to Israel to be persecuted by
my fellow Jews," snorts Mr. Tobias, a thin, intense South African who came here
seven years ago.  But he has given up and removed the offending ad.

Hottest Issue

Mr. Tobias is caught up in the hottest social issue in Israel today: the rapidly
escalating tensions between religious and secular Jews.  Religious Jews have
been throwing their weight around, trying to close movie theaters and soccer
stadiums on the Sabbath, burning down bus stops that carry ads with what they 
consider racy pictures of women, and even trying to tighten the definition of
who is a genuine Jew.  A violent backlash has developed among less-religious 
Jews, many of whom discern a threat to the very religious freedom that initially
drew them to Israel.
	As the debate graphically illustrates, not only the Islamic states are
grappling with religious fundamentalism.  In many ways, Israelis are conducting
a gut-level debate over just what kind of Jewish state Israel ought to be.  That
debate could even affect Israel's international position; the activism of 
Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jews alarms and angers many of America's moderate Jews,
who give Israel vital political and financial support.
	"This is an issue that has wider implications," says Ze'ev Chafets, an
Israeli author and consultant.  "It's roots aren't just local or national but
international."

Street Violence Possible

	Tensions are running high both in Tel Aviv, where secular Jews have set 
fire to an ultra-Orthodox synagogue and attacked a religious school, and here in
Jerusalem, where some residents can envision an eruption of religious-secular
street violence.  The Israeli cabinet has been holding emergency meetings to try
to defuse the tensions, and it is clearly worried.  Yesterday, Foreign Minister
Yitzhak Shamir, the leader of the right-wing Likud Bloc in the current coalition
government, warned that a "civil war" might develop unless a dialogue began
immediately.
	Public-opinion surveys by Hanoch Smith, a prominent Israeli pollster, 
disclose how deeply emotions are running.  In his latest poll in Jerusalem, 44%
of the residents surveyed termed religious-secular tensions the city's biggest
problem.  Only half as many cited Jewish-Arab tensions, the second most 
prominent issue.
	Nationwide, more than 50% of those interviewed in another poll said that
the power of ultra-Orthodox Jews is growing and that they don't like the trend.
(Jews are classified as Orthodox, Conservative or Reform, according to their
adherence to ancient religious laws.  The most extremely religious are called
ultra-Orthodox.  Ultra-Orthodox men wear black coats and hats, even on blazing
summer days, and some oppose even the existence of Israel because they believe
a true Jewish state can be established only by a coming Messiah.)

Basic Split

	From its beginning, Israel has been home to both highly religious Jews
and secular Jews, who strongly identify with their Jewish heritage but don't 
scrupulously follow religious laws.  Today, tensions between the two camps are
rising because two broad trends are in conflict.
	On the one hand, Israel has rapidly become a more modern country, 
complete with homosexual bars, pornographic magazines and nonkosher restaurants
open seven days a week.  At the same time, religious Jews have acquired new
political leverage that inspires them to push for a religious "revival" against
such changes.  Israel's small religious political parties today can swing the
balance of power in the country's factionalized coalition governments; so,
mainstream politicians are catering to their demands.
	"There is a sense of a return-to-Judaisn movement that is gaining 
ground," says Yitzhak Peretz, Israel's interior minister.  "It isn't a mass
movement, but it's gaining.  And this has caused some sense of alarm among the
secular community."
	Mr. Peretz himself is a symbol of growing religious activism.  An ultra-
Orthodox rabbi who became interior minister when his small religious party
joined Israel's main parties in a "national unity" government in 1984, Mr.
Peretz is obviously far more concerned with the spiritual than the material
world.  Upon learning that a visitor to his office is from The Wall Street
Journal, he asks with a quizzical look what Wall Street is.
	Mr. Peretz helped bring the religious-secular tensions to a head several
weeks ago when he led the religious community's fight to block the introduction
of daylight-saving's time this summer.  Religious leaders complained that, by
pushing clocks ahead an hour, daylight-saving time would delay the end of the
Jewish Sabbath, which officially closes at sundown Saturday.  And that, they
argued, would unduly tempt religious Israelis to drive cars or dally in other
activities deemed unacceptable on the Sabbath before sundown.
	But polls showed that a vast majority of Israelis wanted the longer
summer days that daylight-saving time would bring.  Whole factories and 
communities threatened to adopt daylight-saving time even if the country didn't.
Finally, the issue was settled by the Israeli cabinet; under a compromise,
daylight-saving time was begun but at a later date.
	Many Israelis think that they see other signs that religious Jews aren't
content to practice their brand of Judaism themselves but want to spread it
around Israeli society.  Streets in Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods
long have been closed to traffic on the Sabbath in deference to ultra-Orthodox
feelings, and secular Jews tacitly understand that any car venturing in is fair
game for stoning.  Even fire trucks are said to have been attacked.

Big Demonstrations

	But now, religious Jews are holding big demonstrations to try to close
a movie theater in a secular neighborhood in a Tel Aviv suburb because it opens
on the Sabbath.  And some religious Jews recently protested about a new 
municipal pool near their neighborhood because men and women would be allowed
to swim together.  The city eventually set segregated men's and women's days
at the pool and built a barrier to hide it.
	Religious Jews also have tried to block meetings in schools between
Jewish and Arab children.  They complain that such encounters could lead to
Arab-Jewish marriages that pull young Jews away from their faith.
	As exasperating as such tiffs are, they aren't as serious as the growing
tendency of religious extremists to resort to violence or vandalism to make
their points - or the sign that secular Jews will strike back.  An alarming
example has been the attacks on almost 100 bus stops carrying swimsuit ads
showing scantily clad women.
	Several dozen ultra-Orthodox Jews have been arrested for spray-painting
or even burning down bus stops.  And, in a far more chilling sign of a secular
backlash, an Orthodox synagogue was set on fire.
	The ultra-Orthodox seem to consider arrest and sentencing for such 
activities more a cause for celebration that consternation.  On one recent
morning, when religious Jews were being sentenced for bus stop attacks, two
handcuffed young ultra-Orthodox men burst into a happy song as they were led
into a municipal court here.  "G-d is our king, and only to him are we slaves,"
they sang as friends joined in.
	One young spectator with the shaggy beard and long curled forelocks of
ultra-Orthodox Jews explained that the singing illustrates that religious Jews
like to defy man-made laws in defense of divine laws.  "There's a fight, a fight
between religious and nonreligious Jews," said the man, who identifies himself
only as Rabbi Abraham.  "Sometimes the fight just explodes."
	The fight is principally an Israeli affair, of course, but occasionally
it has distinctly American overtones.  Some extreme religious activists take
their spiritual lead from charismatic rabbis who live in New York and often
relay their teaching to Israeli followers by cassette recordings.
	Religious Jews are also crossing swords with an American Christian
church, the Mormons, which wants to build a religious center in Jerusalem.
Religious Jews are fighting to block it, saying the Mormons would use it to try
and convert Jews.
	For American Jews, though, the most emotional issue is an effort by
religious political parties to alter Israel's "law of the return," which 
establishes the right of Jews to immigrate to Israel and become citizens.
Religious leaders propose changing the law so that only those converted to
Judaism by Orthodox rabbis are considered truly Jewish - no those converted
by Reform or Conservative rabbis.
	The change wouldn't have much practical effect because only a few 
Jewish converts move to Israel annually.  But the symbolism would be far-
reaching.  To many American Jews, the change would amount to a declaration
by the Jewish state that America's Reform and Conservative rabbis somehow 
aren't fully qualified religious leaders.
	"It would imply that the state of Israel discriminates among rabbis 
in America and recognizes some rabbis and doesn't recognize others," says
Joseph Lapid, an Israeli poltician.  Battling back, Mr. Lapid helped form a
poltical party called the Liberal Center Party, which calls for combatting
religious "extremism."  The party recently ran a newspaper ad proclaiming 
that acts of religious extremism "antagonize the majority of the public and
are liable to lead to polarization and to endanger national unity."
	Even some leaders of the religious camp worry about how the tensions
harm the social fabric of Israel, a country formed to bring Jews together.
"I do hope the whole Israeli society will be more rational and understand
that we just can't afford the luxury of Jews fighting Jews," Interior Minister
Peretz says. "

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
148.1	See note #135	NONODE::CHERSON	Imagination tires before nature	`Thu Jun 19 1986 12:59`	7
	Anita, Refer back to note #135, and some of the later replies to it. By the way, the quote about Peretz not knowing what Wall St. is seemed fabricated and intentionally demeaning. David
148.2	very sad business!	CAD::RICHARDSON		`Thu Jun 19 1986 13:40`	15
	Without (I hope!) starting a flame-war here, I must say that this is all very sad. VERY sad. I particularly find the argument over the Law of Return very disheartening. Israel ought to be a land where all Jewish people can live in freedom from tyranny and coercion; you can be sure that the tyrants in question don't stop to inquire about details of people's religious practices... Not so, though, if we manufacture our own tyrannies from within our own ranks - who needs outside enemies then? Has anyone else been following the Shoshanah Miller case? Of course, as an American, I guess I shouldn't talk, either. This country is busy doing the same thing, except that it is the far-right Christian groups that are doing the coercion. The United States has an even more diverse population than Israel does, and much less historical reason to try to force uniformity. Very sad here too!
148.3	WASP Street Journal	GRAMPS::LISS	Fred - ESD&P Shrewsbury MA	`Thu Jun 19 1986 14:06`	109
	The article in the Wall Street Journal is biased trash intended to pander to the American business community. Mr. Seib paints the Ultra-Orthodox as villains who are trying to impose there will on innocent and non-militant secularists. This is simply not the case. >The most extremely religious are called Ultra-Orthodox. >Ultra-Orthodox men wear black coats and hats, even on blazing >summer days, and some oppose even the existence of Israel because >they believe a true Jewish state can be established only by a >coming Messiah.) The author is clearly ridiculing the orthodox. If this is a definition of orthodox Judaism then the Amish people of Pennsylvania must also be Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Mr. Seib seems to be insulted by the idea that Mr. Pretz did not know of the Wall Street Journal. Does this imply that there is something wrong with him? I can't blame him. I might get upset if someone asked me "what's DIGITAL?" >And some religious Jews recently protested about a new municipal >pool near their neighborhood because men and women would be >allowed to swim together. The city eventually set segregated >men's and women's days at the pool and built a barrier to hide it. Why did the secularists force this pool on one of the most religious neighborhoods? Are they totally insensitive to the community? The article failed to mention that the secularists forced a highway through one of the most religious neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Also the secularists, just for kicks, go for a joy ride through orthodox areas on the Sabbath, blowing their horns. It makes no difference to them that these streets are legally closed by the police. This article sounds like it came from a 1939 Nazi publication. As a realistic point of reference I'm including a posting from n.r.j written by an Israeli citizen. It mentions many items not talked about in the news. It appears to treat both sides equally. Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Path: decwrl!ucbvax!WEIZMANN.BITNET!VSHANK Subject: Ultra orthodox vs non-religious Posted: 18 Jun 86 06:21:05 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley > Also, I thought it was well known (at least among the readers of this > newsgroup) that orthodox Judaism views non-Jews as somewhat closer > to the animal kingdom than to Jews, no? > Yigal Arens > USC > [email protected] Whether I agree or not to above comments (which I don't) I think the readers of this forum should be aware of the recent incidents that have been occuring in Israel between religious and non-religious Jews. It started about a month ago when certain bus shelters were burned or blown up. After a while it was announced that Haredi (ultra- orthodox) people were burning them since they had posters of girls posing in Gottex and other brand bathing suits (that didn't cover much of their body). Two weeks later, the tactics changed. Burning bus shelters was considered too extreme so the alternative was to use black paint to cover over the scantily clad women. Two weeks ago, Haredi people in Bene Brak and Jerusalem were doing the black paint job by the light of day and in clear view of people in the street since they wanted to bring attention to the situation. From there things started to esculate. 23 Haredi were arrested. A bus shelter was burned. A group calling itself Achad - 'Irgun Chisul Dosim' (United Front for the Extermination of Ultra-orthodox) attempted to burn a shul in Tel Aviv. The message they delivered was - "for every bus shelter burned - we will burn a shul". The same night swastikas were painted on a shul in Jerusalem and a group calling itself Tanach - 'Terror Neged Haredim' (Terror against Ultra-orthodox) claimed responsibility. The following night 6 bus shelters at the central bus station in Jerusalem were burned. The next day, various shuls and yeshivots were firebombed and many sifra kodesh were burned. A Chevra Kadisha van in Jerusalem was stoned. Another bus shelter in Rishon LeZion was burned. The list is endless and every day brings another half dozen incidents from all over Israel. Poster Media - the owner of the bus shelters has started removing their bus shelters. In Rehovot, all bus shelters have been riped out of the ground and removed - leaving just an empty hole were once a bus shelter stood. All responsible parties (government and religious) have done very little to put a stop to this escalating violence. No city Rabanut or chief rabbi within Israel has come out against the acts that the Haredi have been doing. The police claim that there is a law in Israel that prohibits anyone from offending religious mores and values (although they are quick to add that that does not give anyone the right to burn a bus shelter). The #1 bus in Jerusalem that used to go through Mea Shearim no longer goes that route. Egged has stopped bus service to that area. The Arabs may have found the best way to eliminate Israel - leaving us alone!! Hank Rehovot, Israel
148.4	to see ourselves as others see us	DEREP::GOLDSTEIN	Distributed Systems Ideology	`Thu Jun 19 1986 15:24`	12
	Hank's n.r.j article is pretty good, from a Jewish perspective. I think the WSJ article reflects what we look like to the "outside world". The parallels with Khomeiniism are painfully obvious; it's just that Khomeini came to power while the haredi simply weild disproportionate influence due to the Israeli political system. Fred, your syllogism is wrong re the black coats; the article didn't say that people who dress that way _are_ ultra-Orthodox, just that the ultra-Orthodox do dress that way. As may others (i.e., Amish). Of course, I haven't seen any Mennonite churches in Israel! Very sad state of affairs. fred
148.5	Don't cry "Wolf!" with no Wolf	MINAR::BISHOP		`Thu Jun 19 1986 17:43`	17
	Mr. Liss, you should be careful not to overstate your case. I have read real Nazi writings from 1939 (in the library of Brown University, kept for historical purposes). The Wall Street Journal is utterly benign comparitively. While I doubt that Mr. Peretz has never heard of "Wall Street", I can believe that he misunderstood what the reporter said. The article tells the truth, even if it only tells part of the truth: the black coats are real, the stoning of cars is real, the tension and violence is real. It is reminiscent of the early days of the Iranian revolution or of the Moral Majority. I assume you are not saying that burning bus shelters because of the advertisements on them is a good thing? -John Bishop
148.6	It's still trash!	GRAMPS::LISS	Fred - ESD&P Shrewsbury MA	`Fri Jun 20 1986 14:06`	28
	I still say the WSJ article is trash and boarders on anti-Semitism. The purpose of this article is to portray Israel, in front of the American business community, as being controlled by a group of violent Orthodox fanatics. The article is condescending and refers to many stereotypes that Gentiles have of us. It is intended to set a mood or frame of reference from which businessmen and politicians will make decisions when dealing with Israel and the Jewish people. The WSJ has been very successful if a non-Jew can read this article and not find it offensive. If you want an unbiased account look at the AP news available through videotex. When the Orthodox burn a bus shelter the AP jumps on them. However, when the secularists burn a shul the AP gives them their share of lumps. { - { { / \ __________ { { { { \ <***FLAME!!!!* (_)________) ==> {{{{{{{{{ +++ ___________ / \+ O (_)_________) O \\|\|/ __\|_______ _______\|__ (_)\|_______))______\|__) =====\|===============\|====== T T
148.7	ongoing stories ain't news	DELNI::GOLDBERG		`Fri Jun 20 1986 17:29`	6
	I agree with .6. Most newspapers love this stuff; they run it with glee, to demonstrate that Israeli society is not perfect. From a journalistic point of view, this stuff just is not news and never deserves page 1 treatment. Watch Curtis Wilkie in the Boston Globe. He spent some time in Lebanon and obviously made some friends there. He loves to run such stories.
148.8	Good luck	ZEPPO::BANCROFT		`Mon Jun 30 1986 12:45`	6
	From a descendent of one of the lost tribes (Scotland). Relax, look at it from the long view. In a few years Isreal will not be Jewish, but Islamic. The Arabic population of Isreal is having kids at such a faster rate than the Jewish, that they will shortly be in the voting majority. In a democracy, that rather settles it. Gluck auf.
148.9	no problem. duck soup. lots of precedents.	DELNI::GOLDSTEIN	Distributed Systems Ideology	`Mon Jun 30 1986 16:04`	21
	RE -.1 : Many of us notice this problem. Of course, there are two semi-obvious solutions: a) return the West Bank and Gaza to Arab sovereignty (with security guarantees). Then the Arab population won't be Israeli anymore. There will be some Arabs within Israel proper, but most will no doubt choose to live elsewhere (if it is a reasonable territorial compromise). Many in Israel's Labor movement, and on the left, support this idea. b) establish a permanent system of Apartheid, where the Arabs are deprived of citizenship and perhaps made to live in special zones whose residents don't get rights. This is closer to the status quo, and is favored (though they use euphemisms) by many on the right, such as the Likud movement. See how easy it is? Mind you, neither's perfect: "b" has led to a tad bit of unrest in Azania/S.A., while "a" reminds me just a bit of the situation in Ireland, where that "lost tribe" is a majority in their little province but territorial bounds like that always upset the people whose homes are on the "wrong" side of the line.