Conference taveng::bagels

	I'll bite.

	Tough I am only 1% sure of what it is you want to
	hear about, I am always willing to ramble.

	You are dating a Jewish Man, eh ?  Have you met
	his parents ? (I'm assuming they are living).  Worse
	yet, does he have a sister ? 8-}

	About 80% of my girlfriends, past and present, were
	Gentiles.  I am not sure about everyone else, but
	perhaps I can offer a unique view from the 'other' side.

	Let er rip...

    There has been a great deal of debate is recent years over "who
    is a Jew."  I will provide some background information, keeping
    personal bias to a minimum.
    
    Halacha (normative Jewish law) recognizes a person as Jewish if:
    	- his mother is Jewish, or
    	- he converts with a ceremony including:
    		- immersion in a "mikvah" (ritual bathhouse);
    		- circumcision (males only; if already circumcised,
    		  a ritual bloodletting is performed);
    		- acceptance of the commandments as personally binding.
    
    Over the past two centuries, the Reform movement has accepted persons
    as Jewish if:
    	- the father is Jewish, or
    	- a conversion, possibly lacking some of the above components,
    	  is performed.
    Orthodox-affiliated Jews have not accepted the above changes, and
    do not recognize the person in question as Jewish.
    Conservative-affiliated Jews are split on the issue.
    
    Re JFJ:  According to the halacha, a Jew -cannot- cease being Jewish.
    A Jew who accepts Christianity is behaving contrary to G-d's will,
    and will probably be ostracized by the Jewish community, but he
    is -still- a Jew, with the attendant obligations.  A Gentile who
    joins JFJ does not thereby become Jewish.
    
    I do not Not NOT NOT want to start a discussion of this
    here; just to let Gale know what she's getting into.
    

    I have an interesting (I think so) philosophical insight into Judaism.
    
    LAW LEADS TO LOVE...
    
    One major difference between Judaism and many other religions is its
    approach to religious practice.  Many other religions would have you
    begin with some basic beliefs, and hope that belief will lead to
    action. 
    
    For instance, you may be called upon to believe in "Love your
    neighbor...," but you must figure out how to do that on your own.
    Although you may be offered some guidance in ways to do this, what is
    important is that you act in some way on "love your neighbor..." every
    day.
    
    Judaism takes a different approach.  Rabbis from talmudic times
    (over 1800 years ago) to the present find principles stated in the
    Torah, and turn each one into several, perhaps hundreds of laws
    for us to follow.
    
    Consider the command to "Honor your father and your mother."  Rabbis
    have discussed this at great length, and have recorded hundreds
    of laws and customs telling us how to honor our parents.  They tell us:
    -  One should not call one's parents by their first names (unless
       it is necessary in the context of conversation)
    -  What we should do if a parent directs us to disobey a Jewish
       law (the issue is: is it more important to observe the law, or
       to honor your parents)
    -  When and how to correct our parents when they've said something
       that is incorrect.  If the error is made in public, it is improper
       to publicly embarass our parents.  The rabbis suggest a specific
       way of tactfully correcting the error...
    
    Well, I think you get the idea.  The point is this:  We are sometimes
    criticized for having so many laws.  It is a Jewish "belief" that love
    for others and love of/reverence for/fear of G-d will grow out of
    having and following laws, not necessarily the other way around.
    
    Comments welcomed.

    Re: .1
    
    Most of the questions I have, I know what they are, but don't know
    how to phrase them...
    
    To ramble on a bit...
    
    I know there are different types of Jewish faith, just as there
    is different types of Baptist faith, what do you see as the difference,
    what do you (as a responder) like about each aspect of the differences?
    
    How are holidays handled in mixed friendships/dating/marriages that
    you are aware of?
    
    What are some of the most sacred customs that I need to be aware
    of so I don't maybe cook something for dinner that I should not,
    when I invite him (or any one) over for dinner?
    
    What are some things that in your faith and upbringing that are
    the most important and dearest to you?
    
    If I do ever meet his parents, is there something special I should
    know, not know, do or not do (and no, he only has another brother
    - sorry 8-)...)
    
    Does this help with a starting point?
    
    GLK

    There are many good books on the meaning and practice of Judaism,
    which are excellent introductory reading. I can give you the names
    of some of these if you like.
    
    I also strongly recommend that you talk to some converts to Judaism.
    This is so that you get a perspective of what is required, should
    you choose that route. They may also give you some insight into
    the relationships they have had to build with the Jewish families
    they are entering.
    
    I would also encourage talking to couples of "mixed" marriages.
    They  can give you a good insight into the special requirements
    in their relationships.

    I do not want to discourage you, but you should understand all the
    ramifications of your relationship from the beginning, particularly
    if your "significant other" has a family who thinks that non-Jews
    are not appropriate mates. I speak from experience.
    
    If I can be of more assistance, let me know.
    
    Jack
    CURIE::GOLD

Gale,

I'm not sure the replies so far are exactly what you are looking 
for;  possibly that's because Judaism is such a big topic.  Maybe 
you could give us a little more direction.  

In particular, I am thinking that it might be helpful to tell us
more about the background of your Jewish friend -- is he
American-born?  is he observant of Jewish law?  is his family?  

By these questions I do not mean to imply that an observant 
person is "more Jewish" than a non-observant one.  Being Jewish 
is a binary condition -- either you are or you aren't.  (Yes, I 
know this can be disputed, but I don't want to get into that 
here.)

What I do have in mind is that knowing more about your friend's 
background can help others predict the kinds of culture clashes 
you may experience.  For example, if your friend is not very 
observant, you may have few problems and your shared American 
culture may be the overwhelming influence.  You both like 
cheeseburgers?  bacon and eggs?  movie dates on Friday nights?  
Fine, no problem.  Perhaps there may be a bit of uneasiness
around Christmastime, especially if this is an important holiday
for you and your family, and your friend is not comfortable taking 
part in Christmas parties/dinners/family gatherings/gift 
exchanges/tree-trimming sessions, etc.

If your friend is somewhat more observant, things get a little 
more interesting.  If your friend is very observant, things get 
extremely interesting (also extremely unlikely, since he probably 
would date only Jewish women).

Despite the interesting tidbits you may pick up in this note 
file, I think the best way to understand more about your friend's
cultural and religious background is to do some reading and ask
him questions as you go.  One of the first concepts you encounter
is that there are (at least) three schools of thought in Judaism:
Orthodox, Conservative and Reform.  In level of observance these
compare, extremely roughly, to Catholic, Presbyterian and
Unitarian.  You get the idea. 

The point I want to make is that your friend's "cultural set"
is highly influenced by his background, and that you have to know
something about it before you can learn any more about it.  This
sounds circular, but it does make sense.  For example, you
shouldn't read up on Orthodox Jews and then assume your friend
would want you to don a wig and buy two more sets of dishes, if
his own background is Reform. 

I have a good list of books for background reading;  I will try
to remember to bring it to work tomorrow and pass it on. 

In your note, you mention that taking the "Introduction to
Judaism" class is not a possibility at this time.  This is
something you may want to consider for later, if your
relationship becomes more serious. The advantages of taking a
class are that the teacher (a rabbi) explains customs and
observances, and that the class discussions can be enlightening,
since many of the students are in a situation similar to yours. 
Some attend with their Jewish partner.  Judaism does not actively
seek converts, so there is no pressure in the class to commit to
conversion. 

One thing to be aware of, though, is that the three "schools of
thought" offer their own series of classes.  So, you would get a 
slightly different view of things depending on which type of 
class you attend.  (Again, here's more reason to know more about 
your friend's background.)  You register in a class through a
referral from a rabbi.  I believe that any rabbi you ask can
steer you to an appropriate class. 

In any case, I hope your quest is an interesting and satisfying 
one.  I would guess that your Jewish friend is pleased by your 
interest.

/Joyce

PS I would be happy to talk with you, if you like.  You can reach me at
LOGIC::DESMARAIS.

    Ahem, just a small suggestion, if I may. Have you tried talking
    to him about your interest? I mean when I dated my wife I didn't
    go to a Shinto temple nor did I immediately take up martial arts...
    
    

	
	
	And you like sushi nonetheless ?

	8-}

First, three books for general background:

1. What Is a Jew? by Morris Kertzer

   "A guide to the beliefs, traditions and practices of Judaism
   that answers questions for both Jew and Gentile."

2. The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism, by Dennis Prager and
   Joseph Telushkin

   "Written for the educated, skeptical and searching Jew, and for the
   non-Jew who wants to understand the meaning of Judaism.  There are
   questions on the foundations of religious beliefs, the distinctiveness
   of Judaism, and practical questions about living a Jewish life."

3. Jew, God and History, by Max Dimont

   "Tells the 4000-year story of the Jewish people and their contributions
   to the history of Asia, Europe and America."

Next, two books to show the range of individual life-style and practice:

4. How to Run a Traditional Jewish Household, by Blu Greenberg

   "Describes the way a modern Orthodox Jewish household functions, with
   an emphasis on daily how-to information... Indispensable for all those
   wishing to understand better this resurgent, modern life-style
   anchored in ancient laws and tradition."

5. Liberal Judaism at Home -- The Practices of Modern Reform Judaism, by
   Morrison D. Bial

   "Shows how customary practices of Reform Judaism differ from those
   of traditional Judaism."

Finally, two pamphlets on a couple of the real basics:

6. The Sabbath -- Its Meaning for Modern Man, by Abraham Heschel

   "A profound, scholarly and beautiful meditation on the nature and
   celebration of the Seventh Day... The Sabbath represents a day of
   separation from space and the material things that fill it, a day
   of devotion to time and the eternity that fills it."

7. The Jewish Dietary Laws, by Samuel Dresner and Seymour Siegal

   "...their meaning for our time and a guide to observance."


Many of these are available in any public library.  They all can be ordered 
from the Israel Bookstore on Harvard St. in Brookline, Mass. (they take
phone orders).

So... keep us posted on your journey.  Shalom,
Joyce

    Re:-2
    ...love it Mr. Mahler, just love it!

	Then get your tuchus over here so we can
	get together to have some !

    This should really be a separate note, but just for your palate,
    I get it at home (sushi that is, of course) :^)

    See also 110.9 for a list of Jewish books.
    
    Jack

    Gale
    
    Answers to some of your questions, I hope.
    
    As far as serving meals. Eating pork or ham is offensive to some
    Jews, while others will eat it. It depends on how observant they
    are. Pig meat is considered not Kosher. So is mixing meat and milk
    based products. If you friend or his parents are observant Jews,
    they may eat only Kosher food. This will be a problem for you because
    not only must the food be Kosher, but so must the utensils to prepare
    it and the dishes you eat it from. In addition, the milk and meat
    serving utensils and dishes must be distinct and separate. What
    I am describing is the Orthodox View. You should check to see how
    flexible your company would be in regards to these principles.
    
    How Orthodox (which is the most observant form of Judaism) they
    are will also depend on how people observe the various Jewish holidays
    throughout the year. The holiest day of the year is Yom Kippur,
    or Day of Atonement. This follows 10 days after the Jewish New Year,
    or Rosh Hashanah. On Rosh Hashanah, Jews pray to G-D for forgiveness
    for the sins they have committed against G-D. They are also to ask
    forgiveness from people who they may have offended or wronged during
    the year. It is accepted that praying to G-D can only win you
    forgiveness for your sins against G-D. The only way to receive
    forgiveness for transgressions against man is from 
    the man you transgressed.
    
    On the tenth day after New Year, is the Day Of Atonement, or Yom
    Kippur (Pronounced yome key-poor, emphasis on poor). This is a fast
    day, where no food or drink may be consumed from sundown the evening
    before until sundown of the day of Yom Kippur( all Jewish holidays
    start at sundown the night before, and end at sundown). On Yom Kippur,
    it is believed, G-D writes into his book who shall live and who
    shall die during the following year. Jews spend the Erev (or evening
    before) Yom Kippur in Synagogue, listening to a special prayer called
    Kol Nidre (pronounced cole knee-dray). After a couple of hours,
    the people go home, to return early the next morning. The services
    extend nearly the entire day, with about a 2-3 hour break in the
    late afternoon. The Reform service is not as lengthy. Rosh Hashanah
    and Yom Kippur normaly take place in the September time frame, although
    they sometimes occur in October. The Jewish holidays occur on the
    Jewish calendar which is based on a lunar cycle. This does not coincide
    with the solar cycle of our calendar, and hence the Jewish holidays
    occur at different dates during the year of our standard calendar.
    
    The Sabbath (in Hebrew, Sha-bat, emphasis on second syllable) is
    observed from sundown Friday night to sundown Saturday. It is a
    day of rest, with no work to be done. Observant Jews do not turn
    on lights, spend money, write, cut things, etc. on Shabbat. Saturday
    morning, there are services held at Synagogue,(Shul in Yiddish), from
    about 9 AM until roughly 12 PM. The Reform service is slightly less
    lengthy. Tradition has it that there is a special dinner on Erev
    Shabbat, or Friday night. At this time there is a special service
    where Kiddush is said, which is a short prayer said over wine.
    Tradition also has the women of the house light Shabbat candles.
    The traditional bread served with the meal is a Chale, which is
    a braided egg bread.
    
    
    
    This may or may not be of help to you. I have been rambling on a
    bit. It would take a lot more space to talk about more of the holidays
    and traditions. Are there some more specific areas you want answers
    to? 
    
    Please get in touch if I can Help.
    
    Jack

    Re: .6 (and some others along the way 8-)...)
    
    Thanks for the titles of the books, I shall check out the library
    and see if they have some of (or all of) the titles.
    
    To answer some of the questions, he is of the Reform Jewish Faith,
    and as much as I can tell, practicing his faith, but not as stict
    as some of the catogories in .6.
    
    I do and have and continue to ask him questions, as he does of my
    faith, but this conference gave me a chance to get other views,
    and to give him some relief to my continous onslaught of questions.
    We also are reading your answers together, so that gives us a chance
    to discuss more, and talk about the different views as they come
    up, and see where his view agrees or disagrees with yours (so far
    they seem to be running hand in hand 8-)...).  Plus, I thought if 
    I had the questions, maybe someone else out in DEC had the same 
    questions and this topic would be a good place to start getting some 
    of those answers.

    He does not keep a kosher house, but I still wanted to know about
    that custom becuase I am sure we will be visiting people who do,
    and I will then know what is happening.
    
    Another magazine I have been reading is one published monthly called
    "The Choosen People", which has also been given me an insight.

    Thanks again for all the answers and the answers to come...
    
    Gale
    

    Hi, Gale.
    
    I am married to a practicing Episcopalian.  In fact, I started another
    note in this notesfile about that very issue.  I don't know how
    serious you and your friend are, but I have some impressions about
    the situations you may encounter if and when you become more serious.
    
    Food:
    -----
    First of all, while the two of you are simply strong friends, I
    would not be overly concerned with issues around a kosher home,
    holidays, etc.  The fact that your friend is a member of the reform
    movement helps.  My suggestion about invitations to your home is
    to have your friend ask if there are any problems.  For example,
    my father was raised in the orthodox hasidic movement.  (Loosely
    equivalent to fundamentalist baptist in equivalent orientation).
    He became a more modern orthodox Jew probably around the time of
    WW2.  After the army, he married my mother, who had decidedly reform
    sentiments.  Their truce was that my mother could have pork in the
    house, but that he would not eat it.  I was raised conservative
    as a result (the so-called great compromise).
    
    Similar schizophrenic interpretations of kashruth abound.  You'll
    never sort it out.  My advice is to do the following:
    
    1) Forget about feeding the truly religious.  They technically
    shouldn't even enter your house (it doesn't have a mezuzha nailed
    to the door), let alone eat in it.

    2) Even though ALL THE FOOD IN YOUR HOUSE IS NOT KOSHER (remember
    that! Even if the label says Hebrew National it is essentially
    impossible for you to comply with all the laws, and the food will
    'become' treif (not kosher)), your guests will feel more comfortable
    if you observe a few simple rules - Don't mix milk with meat, don't
    serve Pork products or shellfish, and forget about Jell-o.

    Reform jews tend to believe that it is not necessary to eat kosher
    food, to a greater or lesser degree.  The problem is the question
    of degree.
    
    You could always cook for his parents at his house...
    
    If and when you decide to get married, you might want to contemplate
    a kosher home.  Advice: Consider if you can stand to eat out when
    you want non-kosher food.  Adopt the standards of your future
    mother-in-law if you decide to keep kosher.  She'll help; I guarantee
    it.  Forget about what anyone else thinks.  Once you've decided
    what you are going to do, don't ever cheat!
    
    Holidays:
    ---------
    
    Chanukah is a 'minor' Jewish holiday, made major by its relationship on
    the solar calendar to Christmas.  Keep this in mind.  If your friends
    family sends cards (ask him!), send one to them.  Buy a 'Happy
    Holidays' card. Try to avoid sending a Chanukah or Christmas card. 
    
    The big issue with holidays with my wife and I revolves around going
    to our respective worship alone.  We are both far from family here.
    Barbara has to go to/come home from Christmas worship by herself.
    I have a similar problem on Yom Kippur.  It gets depressing, and
    friends in the temple don't quite make up for it.  It's probably
    easier if you live near family.
    
    Some of the Jewish holidays are fun to celebrate.  I like Purim
    myself.  Passover seems to generate interest from non-jews curious
    about the probable content of the last supper.  I've heard it said
    that non-jews should not be invited to a Seder.  I irreligiously
    suggest that you ignore that rule.
    
    I usually go to Christmas at my wife's father's house.  It's fun.
    I give gifts, get a stocking, etc.  My wife ascribes religious
    overtones to the function; I don't.  If you miff anyone while attending
    the other person's services it is usually helpful to ask a lot of
    questions.  At worst your presence can be then transformed into
    an intellectual exercise.

    Marriage:
    ---------
    Dare I talk about it?  If you do decide to marry a Jewish man, you
    may find that you have never met one of the sides of your relatives
    and in-laws.
    
    Barbara and I paid for our own wedding.  We found a neutral corner
    (a VFW hall in Cambridge).  We had a Rabbi, because my wife said
    she found nothing to argue about with Jewish Custom, and I couldn't
    get past the part about Jesus.  Good luck finding a Rabbi, unless
    you decide to convert.  If you decide to take the plunge, let me
    know, and I'll give you the names of the only two Rabbis in N.E.
    that I could find who would perform such a ceremony.  Both of them
    cost an arm and two legs.  I think 'dual officiation' looks like
    the marriage of the Hatfields and McCoys, myself.  And the negotiation
    over the text ought to be in a Twilight Zone episode.
    
    With all that, my wedding still looked like a scene from 'Annie
    Hall'.  Ask Joyce Desmarais; she fiddled while I...
    
    If I had to do it over again, I'd get a Justice of the Peace.

    Before you decide to take the plunge, make sure you understand what
    you are getting into.  My wife believes in her religion and I believe
    in mine.  The pressure from both religions to change this starts
    instantly the moment they discover this fact.  The claim is that
    Jews don't encourage conversion, and that marriage to a Jewish man
    is not sufficient reason to be converted.  Those Jews who legitimately
    believe it will merely disaprove/try to break up your marriage as
    opposed to the others who will actively try to convert you.  For
    their part, the Episcopalians started asking my wife what would
    happen if one of our unbaptized children died in childbirth.  How
    did SHE feel about condemming a child to limbo for all eternity?
    
    It's not fun.  And, it doesn't end, either.  The Christians tell
    my wife that my children are to be denied the kingdom of heaven
    (or words to that effect).  The Jews call my children mamzerim
    (bastards) and refuse to admit them to Israel under the law of return,
    or even for that matter acknowledging my marriage.  It's enough
    to make you want to become a Unitarian.  I thought about it, but
    didn't like the churches apparent politics.
    
    I recommend that you make a STRONG effort to evaluate each others
    religions emotionally to see if either of you are willing to embrace
    the beliefs of the other, and if this turns out to be true that
    you do so.  For you, you might wish to take one of the courses offered
    by various synagogues as preparation for conversion.  Mostly the
    course consists of 'How to be a Jew' lessons.  No one will pressure
    you to convert in these courses.  They may pressure you not to.
    I spent a lot of time talking to the members of my wife's church
    with as open a mind as possible before deciding that I could never
    be anything but Jewish.  They were fairly subtle in their conversion
    attempts, and I found it easy to deflect them.  You'll get most
    of the pressure from your own family and religion.

    Children:
    ---------
    
    Oy Vay.  I have two.  A reform rabbi circumsized my son (rough
    equivalent to baptism).  My daughter went through a ceremony.
    My wife and I agree to raise my children as Jews.  Still, to many
    Jews my childen are not Jewish as the heredity passes with the mother.
    There are pages of discussions about this in Jewish religious text.
    I don't know what to tell you.  I haven't convinced myself that
    I'm taking the right course.  Read through this notes file and you
    will find much discussion over the issue.  
    
    Advice:  Nothing in this world will irritate you as much as the
    idea that your childen are imperfect.  Decide what religion you
    want them to be, and stick to it.  Ignore the critics.  I bet G-d
    is far less picayune than religious leaders would have you believe.
    
    Jews For Jesus:
    ---------------
    
    The CONCEPT of a Christian adopting Jewish custom and law sounds like a
    good idea to me (screams from the audience are duly acknowledged).
    Jesus was an observant Jew, as far as I know. The problem that I have
    with Jews for Jesus is that I think the name is an oxymoron.  Those
    that call themselves Jews today do not worship Jesus as the messiah.
    Doing so dissociates you with every Jewish sect (save the JFJ's
    themselves, about whom we are talking).  Either all the Jews in
    the world are wrong, or the JFJ's are.  Considering the lopsidedness
    of the votes on the issue, even if the JFJ's are correct they ought
    to adopt a different and less confusing name.  The Christians did.
    
    To me, Jews for Jesus are really 'Fundamentalist Christians attempting
    to worship according to Jewish custom.'  As far as I am concerned, they
    have a right to.  But I don't think of them as Jews. 
    
    Note also that I have an additional problem with Jews for Jesus
    specifically.  I suspect without proof that they have the unexpressed
    goal of converting Jews from the faith.  I further suspect without
    proof that they do not have a similar goal for Christians.  I believe
    based on my religious training (which is altogether too weak for
    a fair analysis) that they are misinterpreting the Torah.  And I
    detect a very strange political twist to their sermons which I cannot
    reconcile with religion or my own political beliefs.  
    
    I therefore recommend that you stay away from this group, even though
    the basic concept sounds interesting.  In my opinion, it should
    be appealing to Christians to worship according to Jewish law and
    custom, and a Jew who accepted Jesus as his savior (therefore ceasing
    to be a Jew) would easily be able to reconcile continuing his Jewish
    form of worship with the teachings of Jesus.
    
    But please keep in mind: I have very little knowledge about this
    issue and it is very emotional.  If you consider this route, talk
    at length with religious leaders from all the groups.  Make your
    own opinions.

    I'm a maven, you're a maven...
    
    One of the things you will discover is that you have a
    disproportionately large number of religious discussions with your
    legitimately curious friends and relatives.  The problem is that
    the member of the 'other' faith is usually held up as an expert
    (meaning of the word maven), and of course most of us are just getting
    by in religious knowledge.  I suggest that the member of the faith
    that is not on the 'hot spot' so to speak, deflect these situations.
    You can feel quite awkward as defender of your religion when you
    aren't sure about the issues, let alone the answers, believe me.
        
    I have more; but I suspect I've already aggravated enough people
    in this file to keep us all busy for a while (I hope not).  Also,
    I have other things to do now.  But, I'll try to put in some more
    later.
    
    Have Fun,
    Harris.

    Re .14
    
    Jack, did you say a two or three hour break on Yom-Kipur
    afternoon? Last year I can remember only a half hour break. 
    
    And for shabos, even though nobody does any malucha (work,
    as defined in the Torah) the events of the day can leave you
    exhausted. Walking home or to a friends house for a *big* lunch,
    walking another six or eight blocks to the men's or women's
    Torah study group, walking back to shul for mincha and ma'ariv
    (with study of the oral tradition in between) and finally back
    home again for havdala can take quite a bit of energy.
    
    On the other hand, its not all work and no play. Yesterday
    evening we celebrated Lag B'Omer. Did anyone out there ever
    celebrate Lag B'Omer in a Lubovitcher shul? It's late in the
    afternoon and I still have the remnants of a hangover.

                             Fred
    
    			Why_are_these_key_clicks_so_loud!
                                                            

    
    
    Gale,
    Hi, I would like to offer to you my two cents. I am not
    going to get into what the Jewish faith is all about. The previous
    notes have done an excellent job of that. What I would like to
    point out is that if you or your prospective spouse covert, it
    is going to provide a potential source for confict.
    
    If you become Jewish, you will have to give up your christian
    traditions(maybe) and beliefs. How will you raise your children?
    What ever you do, it is most important that you truely believe
    your doing the right thing and are united in this. Many couples
    I have seen that have two sets of religions do not stay together
    very long(there are exceptions). 
      What will your parents/family
    think? This is important if you have a close relationship-will
    this effect it?
     Is your spouse-to-be willing to take the leadership
    role in religious matters, or are you( after you convert and not
    to knowledgable in these areas), going to assume the role? 
     
    These are just some questions to ponder.
    
    Neil
    
    
    

    I saw an interesting book at the Harvard Bookstore (not the Coop,
    altho they might carry it too) about intermarriage in the Jewish
    community by Egon Mayer.  Mayer is a professor of sociology at 
    Columbia University.  He writes about the results of surveys of
    intermarried couples, comparing the situation of couples in which
    the non-Jewish spouse converts to couples where the non-Jewsish
    spouse don't, for instance.   He also discusses at length the 
    influence of the spouse's relationship with their parents, the
    differences in the intermarriages of raised-reform, -conservative,
    and -orthodox Jews, and on and on.  
    
    As I say, if you are interested in the topic, get a copy of the
    book.  As I recall, his surveys and studies showed that the strongest
    correlating factor to having a 'successful' intermarriage (as defined
    by a non-biased sociologist, not a theologian, and as defined by
    his subjects, the intermarried couples)  was to have the non-Jewish
    spouse convert.
    
    Gale, I'm afraid we're getting more serious about all this than
    you need at the moment (unless things have progressed very fast,
    hmmmmm?)  It sounds to me as though you are more interested in Judaism
    than your boyfriend is (which is not terribly surprising, or shocking).
    That's certainly a legitimate interest, and if you start reading
    the books mentioned in some of the other notes, you will be able
    to start sorting out your questions.  Also, remember that not everyone
    who contributes an answer to a notesfile, even with the best
    intentions, is necessarily an expert on the subject!  Good luck.
    
    Kathy
    
    have the non-Jewish spouse convert to Judaism

    I just wanted to let you know I am still here and reading...
    
    The one good thing about all of this is that yes, Bob says I am
    making him learn more and appreciate the stuff he did learn, and
    if I don't watch out, I may know more that he does 8-)... but...
    if I am going to be involved in his life - no matter which level,
    I'd like to know about the side of him I really didn't understand,
    but am learning about quickly...
    
    And yes, Michael, after this weekend, I can say I have met his parents
    8-)...
    
    Again many thanks to everyone... Not only are your answers educating
    me, it gives us a chance to read together and talk and learn more,
    becuase not only do we discuss his religion, and its views as expressed
    here, but we also look at the other side of the coin also (my views)...
    
    Gale

    Hi,
    
    	More questions (yes, I could ask him, but I want to surprise
    him too, so I CAN'T ask him or it won't be a surprise!)
    
    	The Jewish holidays are fast approaching, I see the cards in
    the stores.  What exactly are they, what should one do, not do?
    Should I buy those cards in the stores and send them to his parents?
    
       Is there anything special I should know about this time of the
    year?
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Gale

    re.21
    Gale;
    	Beware of Jews who invite you over for Yom Kippur lunch.

    More questions....
    
    Tis the holidays.... here I am still dating, and now have Hanukkah
    upon me.... what can I do special for him???  What are the customs???
    
    There is a custom involving candles I know, but he doesn't follow
    that custom, so what can I do???
    
    any enlightment to the full jewish HYanukkah customs and being would
    be appreciated...
    
    thanks again for coming to my rescue!
    
    Gale

       This is not one of the major holidays (unlike Christmas, for
       Christians). So, how about treating him to homemade potato
       pancakes with apple sauce or sour cream? 

    SORRY, I AM VERY NEW AT ANSWERING AND HIT THE WRONG KEY.
    IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTIONS , YOU WILL FIND THE BOOK IN ANY JEWISH
    BOOK STORE.  THE NAME IS "THE JEWISH BOOK OF WHY" AND THE SECOND
    JEWISH BOOK OF WHY"  YOU CAN PURCHASE THEM SEPARATELY OR AS A PAIR.
    IT HAS AN ANSWER TO ANY QUESTION YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT TO ASK
    ANYONE.  GOOD LUCK!
    LIBBY GANS
    

    I am still learning, and still dating the same person; but now that
    its been over a year, all the first time seeing things have been
    answered...
    
    Another book I got was "The Jewish Peoples' Almanac", which was
    nice also.
    
    G

Gale,

You might want to take a look at:

Seasons of Our Joy - Arthur Waskow (I think)
The Jewish Catalogs


I don't remember the authors of either of the latter.  The "Jewish Catalogs"
run in the vein of "The Whole Earth Catalog".  They cover a wide area of
information.  They serve as pretty good do-it-yourself books for holiday
observances and practices.

"Seasons of Our Joy" covers all of the holidays.  It describes observance
and history of the holidays.

L'hitraot,
Gavriel

    Thanks...
    
    Since its now been over a year and a half since Bob and I have started
    dating, I am learning a LOT... (especailly about Jewish parents!)
    [said with only a half smile!!!]....
    
    Is still nice to learn new things, and Bob says he has learned more
    with me learning then when HE was learning!!!!

    
    I'll see if I can find what you have recommended also...
    
    Gale