Conference taveng::bagels

    I've been married to a "baptist",I guess, for 13 years, and were
    married in a reform synagogue in Hawaii. We don't have any kids,
    and I can't remember the last time I was in a synagogue.
    As for Israel, you are right. Your kids, and your wife for that
    matter, are considered "not jewish" and it will be so stamped in
    their ID cards. Furthermore your marriage will not be recognised.
    Your kids' brit etc...will have to be thoroughly analysed by a school
    of learned men who will decide that probably all of that is not
    according to the Halacha etc... . Should you decide to go to Israel
    your kids will also have some problems joining the Army etc...
    Appart from that you're OK :^)

re .0

    Though I am not in your situation.....
 I have made some interesting observations in this area that i would
like to share. In any mixed marriage there are many cultural, not
to mention theological differences that can create stress for
both partners. Most Jews do not exactly feel comfortable in a church,
especially with a Cross staring them down in the face. 
 Even if you agree to raise the children Jewish, I am sure the wife
must have some underlying hard feelings about not celabrating her
holidays, especially Christmas and Easter. If she didn't, and had
no feelings toward Christianity, then why did she not convert?
  Second, and this is a biggy- is the children. 
From there perspective they see divided parents. The real burden
of raising the children Jewish is now placed totally onthe fathers. 
How can one expect a non-jew going to a christian church to raise jewish
children and do a good job? As a Jewish father now, what type of
example are you setting for your children to follow? Is whats
important to you being communicated by example to them.? If not,
what will they be like/believe when they grow up?
  From my observations, in situations like this, the children tend
to grow up atheist, for have no strong feelings toward religion and
end up marring non-Jews. Of course these are just my observations and
I could be totally off the wall.


Neil

    Re: -1
    I beleive the stress and conflict you refer to arises, in my opinion,
    when there is a lack of mutual respect for each other. In my case,
    for example, I was always interested by the Far East, it's culture,
    history etc... . My wife is an open person and became interested
    in the same areas concerning Israel. The result is a harmonious
    marriage (13 years so far). For my part (being born Xmas day) the
    sight of a Xmas tree with my presents under it don't bother me a
    bit...the more there are the better I like it!      
    With reference "if she has no feeling why doesn't she convert"?
    Why should she convert and not you? I do not beleive that converting
    my wife will make her any more or less of a "nudnik" than she is
    already. If she wants to, fine. If she don't bring up the subject
    then she don't want to, and that's fine by me too.
    Should I have kids, they'll, hopefully, get a "correct" upbringing
    and when they're old enough they can decide what, if anything, they
    want to be. After all it's their life not yours.

    This issue is of concern to our family too.  My sister is marrying
    a non-jew at the end of May.
    
    The man has been around the family for a few years now, and I guess
    although I might feel more comfortable if Bill were Jewish, I'm
    happy she's marrying him, because I'm quite fond of him, and think
    as a person he's more worth marrying than alot of other people,
    including other Jews I've met.
    
    So I guess when it really comes down to marriage, if the worthwhile
    mate happens to be of another religion, let the important qualities
    guide you.
    
    /Eric

    re: .1
    
    Greg,
    
    I have just read your reply, being a newcomer to this conference.
    If you don't mind I'd like to ask you some additional questions.
    I'll explain my situation first.
    
    My girlfriend (a non-Jew) and I will be getting married within the next
    year. I was brought up in a Reform Synagogue but although I declare
    myself as Jewish, I don't have any particular associated religious
    beliefs. I suppose I am Jewish (and wish to remain Jewish) more for the
    tradition, customs etc than for the beliefs. My girlfriend is Church of
    England but again is probably as christian as I am jewish. The only
    time she (or I for that matter) go into a church is for a wedding or
    some other similar ceremony. The only times I have been in a synagogue
    since my Bar Mitzvah are again probably for weddings and possibly Yom
    Kippur. 
    
    Quite obviously we have both discussed where we would get married. I
    said a long time back that I didn't particularly want to get married in
    a church and therefore respected it if my girlfriend didn't want to get
    married in a synagogue. She didn't ever really declare any preference,
    but also had no wish to get married in a church, so we just seemed to
    settle for a non-religous Registry Office wedding. Then last week my
    girlfriend (prompted by just having seen the jewish wedding in the film
    "Private Benjamin" and also having watched "Fiddler On The Roof" a few
    months back) said she wouldn't mind being married in a synagogue.
    
    I noticed that you mention you are married to a baptist and got married
    in a reform synagogue. Did you have any problems arranging a marriage
    ceremony for what was to become a mixed marriage in a synagogue. I can
    forsee that I would have problems if I went to an orthodox synagogue
    but this is likely anyway as I'd prefer a reform synagogue because of
    my background. Also how much "learning" of Judiasm did your wife have
    to do, if any at all.
    
    I was going ask you these questions via VAXMail but thought that there
    may be others in this situation and so have resorted to VAXNotes. 
                                                                     
    Thanks for any information you (or anyone else) can give me.
    
    Greg Mendelsohn,		Basingstoke UK.
    
    PS. as an aside does anybody know of any reform synagogues around
    Basingstoke England.
    

    Re: .5
    
    See 283.1 
    
    Gale (also interested in the rest of the answer to .5)

    I married a non-Jew.  In fact, I was the first Jew she had ever
    met (or more correctly, the first person she had ever met whom she
    knew to be Jewish).  We were married by a Reform rabbi, but not in
    a synagogue.  The wedding was in my parent's living room.
    
    My parents belonged to two shuls, one Orthodox and the other
    Orthodox/Conservative (men and women sat together but the services
    were orthodox).  I did the whole Sunday School, Hebrew School
    shtick as a kid and went to Saturday morning services regularly
    until high school.  By the time I was ready to get married,
    however, I hadn't been to shul in over ten years.  I was probably
    about as unobservant a Jew as you are now and Gail was about as
    Christian as I was Jewish.  The parallels (and lack of parallels)
    here are clear. 
    
    When we decided to be married, we thought we would have a Justice
    of the Peace perform the ceremony.  When I called my parents (long
    distance) to tell them that their son was finally going to get
    married (I was going to turn 31 soon), my father suggested doing
    it in Columbus (where they lived).  He said he would make the
    arrangements and we agreed with the condition that it happen in
    one week and be low key.  He arranged for us to be married by a
    rabbi: 
    
    For the Reform rabbi to marry us, my father had to go to the
    Orthodox/Conservative rabbi and ask his permission to have the
    Reform rabbi marry his son.  The Reform rabbi required Gail and me
    to meet with him for an hour to discuss the implications of what
    we were doing, and if he was satisfied with the results of the
    discussion (whatever that really meant), he would agree to perform
    the ceremony, naturally leaving out the Haray At (how do you
    transliterate that?). 
    
    We used my father's tallis from the old country to make the chupah
    and had about a dozen people attending the wedding (about six more
    than we wanted).  The service was really nice and we were both
    glad that it happened the way it did.  But then, we're not the
    partying types and didn't want a big bash. 
    
    Epilogue:  (not related to question of being married by a rabbi)
    
    Eleven months later our first child was born.  Gail took an
    interest in Judaism, spent about a year studying with a
    Conservative rabbi in Ann Arbor (I had gone back to school), and
    then converted shortly after the birth of our second child.  Both
    children were converted at the same time as she. 
    
    Our house is a Jewish one.  Our children (6 and 4) seem to have a
    strong Jewish identity.  I even feel more Jewish than I ever had
    before, largely because of Gail.  
    
    We never really thought that there would be any problems stemming
    from the mixed marriage, though having kids makes you think about
    things in a very different light.  I'm really happy that Gail made
    the choice she did (I never even hinted at the possibility; I
    wanted it, but I wanted it to come from her). 
    
    Personally, I think it is important to sit back and try to be
    honest with yourselves about what is and and is not important to
    both of you.  We didn't really know and we went ahead and got
    married because it seemed right.  Fortunately, it was. I wish the
    two of you the same happiness Gail and I have had. 
    
    Sid

    To try and answer your question Greg...
    My wife and I got married nearly 15 years ago in Honolulu, Hawaii
    in a reform synagogue (we did not have a civil ceremony). As far
    as I can remember, we went to the rabbi, said we wanted to get married,
    arranged for a date and appart from substituting something along
    the lines of the Lord G*d of Israel to the Lord or some equivalent
    for my wife the ceremony was celebrated. Women and men were not
    separated nor was my wife required to learn anything particular.
    When I investigated going back to Israel some years back, I of course
    found out that the ceremony was invalid and most people made such
    a big deal of it that it wasn't worth the hassle of putting up with
    the religious intolerance that is, unfortunately, so prevalent by
    such a vocal minority at home; however that is another subject.
    I hope that answers your question, if it doesn't or you want some
    more details please mail me at either SHIRE::GREG or MOSSAD::GREG
    
                           Greg

    From a non-husband/wife relationship point of view:
    
    My roommate and I are kinda a "mixed household" in that Jonathan
    converted and is an observant Jew (we keep a kosher house, he prays
    every morning with t'fillin, and doesn't travel on shabbot).  I'm
    mostly non-practicing, was never bar-mitzvah'd, and have only been in
    temple for occasional family weddings, bar-mitzvahs, and funerals.
    Strangely, we met at Reform Temple with a very large mix of orthodox,
    conservative, and reform congragants (lead by a very progressive woman
    rabbi). 
    
    For most practical purposes, I "converted" as we now light candles on
    Friday night, say the prayers, and for the most part keep an observant
    household.  However, I don't keep kosher outside the house and travel
    on shabbot.  So far, it's worked out rather well.  We both dread the
    spring cleaning prior to getting ready for Passover, so we're using the
    opportunity to move to a better apartment.
    
    The only problem we've kinda put off is how to raise the cat [We're
    waiting until he's old enough to make the choice for himself.  He
    enjoys shabbot with the incense, candles, and canned cat food, so we
    think he'll make the right choice...] 
    
    Michael Vilain

    PS: You have no idea of how hard it is to get kosher food in San
    Francisco.  At least, Los Angeles had lots of stores. 

    Hi,  I am a Jew and I'm going out with an Episcopalian.  We
    have thought of making our relationship more permanent.(Still
    can't say the word)
    
    Surprise, my family would not be happy.  Does anyone
    have any experiance about how to deal with this kindof
    problem?
    
    Amy(only here till Aug 14)
    

    Not knowing your family, it is real hard to say.  I've seen situations
    where the family has said "Not good, we are not happy, but it is
    his choice, so we will make the best of it", and situations where
    the family has said "kaddish".
    
    You have the following options:
    
    You can discontinue your relationship, and thus not make it permanent.
    
    You can convert, or otherwise get your family to disown you and
    thus get off your back.
    
    She can convert, which, depending on the family and the situation
    may or may not make them happy, may or may not make her happy, and
    may or may not make you happy.
    
    You can get (watch this, I can use the word) married, and weather
    the familial unhappiness, with neither of you converting.  Be warned,
    if you plan to have (get this word) children, you may face the problem
    all over again.
    
    Now that I've given you all the negative stuff, I can tell you that
    it can work out.  The easiest way to tell when you are over the
    hump is when your mother stops questioning your judgement and starts
    hinting that she wants to be a grandmother.
    
    I've been through it.
    
    		Paul
    

I went through it (both marriage and divorce) and had absolutely no
problems with either side of the family.

There was a seminar on this at Harvard Hillel last year.  The one
thing I remember strongest was that you had better figure out what
you intend to do about children *before* you are married.
The college rabbis have a lot of experience with intermarriage.
If the non-Jew doesn't want to convert, you'd be better off
discussing your situation with a Reform rabbi.

Martin.

    Everyone seems to make the assumption that the reason people get
    married is to have children, and then gets excited about what religion
    (if any) the children will be, rather than considering the people
    marry also for companionship and lots of other reasons.
    
    Very, very few Reform rabbis will perform a mixed marriage ceremony.
    Since people know that we belong to a Reform schul, several people
    have asked us if we know of any rabbis who will do this, and we
    don't; our rabbi certainly doesn't (I have heard that there is a
    reconstructionist schul near Boston somewhere that does, but I don't
    know anything about it).  But no one said that a religious marriage
    ceremony is necessary: if religion is central to your life, you
    probably end up marrying within your own religion, and if it isn't
    than it may not matter to you so long as the ceremony has the elements
    that you want it to have (though it may offend or shock some relatives,
    or whatever).
                 

    Was going to say essentially the same thing.

    If you are [not referring to Amy, but the collective 'You']
    getting married and are trying to find a Reform Rabbi
    who'll do it, then I think you had better think again
    about getting married and why it is so important to 
    you about having a Rabbi perform the ceremony. 

    Go to a JP and then have a great honeymoon!

I have been married for almost 13 years.  I am Jewish; my husband is an
agnostic, but was baptized Methodist, was an Episcopalian altar-boy, and was
taken into the Presbyterian church when in high school because his family
moved to India!  What a mish-mash!  I am more traditional than religious, and
have been so since my father died 15 years ago.  Peter and I were married by
the Cantor from Temple O'bai Shalom (in Brookline, MA), who happens to be
a Justice of the Peace.  It was both a non-religious and a religious ceremony.
It was non-religious because there were no religious trappings; however,
the whole ceremony, while a civil ceremony, was from the bible.  For instance,
in repeating the vows, I was asked to say to Peter, "I am to my beloved as
my beloved is to me".  It was a beautiful ceremony, and I don't feel "less"
married because it was a civil ceremony.

We have no children, but do have an ecumenical household and celebrate both
Jewish holidays and Christmas, and I light candles on the Sabbath.  If we
were to have children, we agreed that they would be brought up Jewish, because
religion is more important to me than to Peter.

I really think the most important thing to keep in mind is that this is your
marriage, not your family's.  More families bring undue stress and conflict
on marriages, but it especially is true with mixed-marriages.  

My family loves Peter because he is the kindest, gentlest, most caring man.
It wouldn't make any difference what religion he was, just who he is.

Regards,

    My husband (whose family is Congregationalist with leaning toward
    Meher Baba) and I (Jewish more culturally than religiously, but
    with an increasing involvement in Judaism and Israel due to a brother
    who made Aliyah and married a nice Orthadox Finnish Jewish girl)
    were married by the same cantor (mentioned in -.1) from Temple Ohabei 
    Shalom  --- it was a beautiful and very meaningful service, with much Jewish
    influence.  As in the previous reply, I felt the ceremony was religious
    although not strictly 'Jewish'.  I was very happy with it, and am
    very happy with the resulting marriage as well!!   

    I am going to place a proverbial fly in the ointment and then duck
    all the barbs. If two folks of different religions (me being Jewish
    will assume a marriage if 1 jew and one non-jew) and "decide" not
    to have kids, I guess its "ok". But where I start to loose
    understanding is when kids are added to the equation. For example,
    Its passover (and just by coincednece happens to be Easter). You've
    been keeping passover and are now on your way to granny's house
    (the non-jewish granny) for a ham-and-bread-and-all-that-stuff
    easter dinner. 1) How does one reconcile this 2) how do you
    explain it to the kids.
    
    I could go on with christmas/hanukah...... Now I admit i was/am
    lucky. My parents are both jewish, my wife is jewish etc, etc so
    I have never REALLY had to deal with it, so my feels and understanding
    are obviously and admittedly biased.
    
      (ok "ill start ducking the barbs now)
    
    
        jeff wolf

    Is is too late for barbs???  I share many wonderful things with my
    husband, including our religion, goals and much love and respect.  We
    also share ambivalence and downright confusion about whether or not to
    have children.
    
    Without tackling any of the more difficult questions raised in -1, why
    if it is "ok" for people to intermarry, is it not "ok" where children
    are involved?
    
    I don't understand this very prevalent attitude that somehow expects
    something to come from nothing:  that from something that doesn't
    matter can come something that does matter.
    
    If there is no value in something for parents, how can the arrival of
    children assign a meaning to it?
    
    If you can "explain" to yourself, you can "explain" to your children. 
    I think the problem comes because people do things (and I don't mean
    intermarriage here, but many things of a religious and secular nature)
    with which they are not altogether comfortable but don't feel compelled
    to explain it until someone (usually a child) asks them to.  It isn't
    that the problem didn't exist but that it wasn't being addressed.
    
    Why do so many people skip to the children issue when discussing things
    anyway?  In my opinion, if you have something worked out between
    yourself and your spouse (a monumental task, or is it just ME?) then
    the rest is cake...
    
    

>    Is is too late for barbs???  I share many wonderful things with my
>    husband, including our religion, goals and much love and respect.  We
I don't agree with .17.  However, I can see the point.  When you are making
a decision without regard to children, it is simply a matter of what you can
live with.  Not what you can fully explain or rationalize.

Once you bring children in it, you have to be able to explain your beliefs
at some level.  Children won't let you evade a question that you can evade
with yourself.  Also, adults make decisions to compromise for themselves
that they would not make for their children.  Take as an example the people
who quit smoking or moderate other bad habits with children around.

Working things out with your spouse is a monumental task compared to working
things out with your co-workers, siblings, maybe even parents.  It is a minor
task compared with working things out with your children.  Children spend
most of their time trying to understand the world; trying to make things
sufficiently rational for comfort.  If you don't address issues with children
they may eventually give up, but they won't necessarily be satisfied.

The other thing that seems to happen with many people is that parts of their
heritage that didn't seem important when they got married suddenly become
important again as they mold their childrens' experience and recall their own
childhoods.

What it really comes down to is that children can cause people to rediscover
value that they thought they had lost (or thought they had never had).

Gav