Conference taveng::bagels

    
    
    	Long letters from LOTS of EMPLOYEES is a good
    	way to start.
    
    

    I too have come across the problem.  There is no easy answer because
    when I talked to the person who had scheduled the course (and he
    was very apologetic) he told me that several Jews had known about
    the course schedule and didn't say anything.  We need to also educate
    our brethren in key positions to speak out.  The Non-Jews would
    appreciate the assistance.  My own manager (a Non-Jew) rescheduled
    a district wide managers meeting because it confliced with Pesach.
    A person known to be Jewish was part of the scheduling that meeting
    but what the team didn't know was that the person had effectively
    renounced Judaism.

    Yes, more awareness is the only answer.  European DECUS last year
    or the year before (I think) was scheduled across Rosh Hashanah.
    Several people I knew who went had interesting tales to tell of
    disappearing for part of DECUS to attend services; so many of them
    in fact that part of the services (this was the year European DECUS
    was in the Netherlands) were done with an English translation.
    
    I once got a note of apology from a wine tastings mailing list I
    am on - they had rescheduled some tasting that was first held on
    Yom Kippur, after noticing too late that they had effectively excluded
    a bunch of their usual attendees.  So, It's not just DEC...

    	I believe the answer is for someone ( do I see a show of hands
    ) to write an article to 'Digital This Week' each year stating the
    following:
    
    "The following is a list of Jewish Holy days in which Symposiums,
    meetings and conferences which might require the presence of Jews
    should not be scheduled.
    
    		enter the dates here"
    
    I would realy like to add the following: "You may schedule these
    events on December 25."!!!

    Re. 0:
    
    You could always relocate to DEC Herzlia - we have the problem 
    under control :-)

Yup, I ran into a VMS Internals course in ZK starting on Rosh Hashana.

You're not going to get people in Nashua (or New England) very sensitive to
the problem by themselves.  They need a calendar to help. 

By the way *I* need a calendar for help.  When we were living in the
Washington D.C. area, my wife and I would regularly do lap swimming at the
JCC in Rockville, MD.  Going there was an education for us (not having very
traditional backgrounds).  We knew all the major holidays, or so we
thought... 

    I agree that we should begin by writing to the member of the IDECUS
    organization that we either know best or who represents our internal
    organization on the committee and letting them know how we feel
    about their scheduling of IDECUS on Passover. All in a constructive
    manner, of course. The members of the IDECUS organization are listed
    on page ii of the symposium announcement. As an example, I sent
    the following:  
    
    "I was very sorry to see that the Spring IDECUS was scheduled to
    coincide with the first two days of Passover. I will not be able
    to attend as a result, and I am sure that there are many others
    who will be similarly affected. Passover in the Jewish calendar
    is similar in relative significance to Christmas in the Christian
    calendar.
    
    To facilitate your planning for future IDECUS or similar events,
    I would be happy to check future potential dates for conflicts with
    major Jewish holidays."
    
    Let's get those cards and letters coming in folks!

    Try to pass to the different organisators the following calendar
    
               		  1986	    1987	 1988	     1989	
    
    Pesach     		24/4-1/5   14-21/4      2-9/4       20-27/4
                         
    Shavuot             14-14/6     3-4/6       22-23/5      9-10/6
    
    Rosh Hashana        4-5/10     24-25/9      12-13/9     30/9-1/10
    
    Yom Kippur            13/10      3/10         21/9        9/10
    
    Sukkoth             18-24/10   8-14/10      26/9-2/10   14-20/10
    
    Simhat Tora         25-26/10   15-16/10      3-4/10     21-22/10
    
    This will allow them to get a better planning.
    
    Gerard

    Bravo!  A long overdue calendar.
    
    I would edit it before distributing to supervisors.  On this side
    of the Atlantic, we write MM/DD/YY; 88.8 is European style, DD/MM/YY.
    Otherwise, your colleagues may think you've given them a Jewish
    calendar!!
    					--- the Nomad
    

    RE: 88.9
    
    I am happy to see that you can understand the European style. We
    in Europe have a nice thought "New England is not the world. Think
    International."
    
    Oh sorry I forgot in Israel they are also using, as the rest of
    the world minus US and few other country the format DD/MM/YY.
    
    BTW don't forget that the holiday start the eve before.
    
    Gerard
    

RE: .8

Shavuot in 1986 is wrong.  I don't have a calendar handy.

    Sorry for the typo. Shavuot 86 is 13-14/6 or 6/13-14.
    
    Gerard
     

    I suggest the following dating scheme:
    
    13-15 Apr 86, as an example.
    
    This is in the same vain as the international dating, but includes
    the month in letters rather than numbers. When used in this format,
    no one can mistake the interpretation of the date. I beliee that
    this form is used extensively by the military in the US.
    
    The monthly abbreviations are;
    Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, May, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec
    
    Jack

    Here is my attempt at a calendar. Dates supplied are from the Jewish
    Directory and Almanac, which has calendars of each year up to 2001
    (for those of you who really like to plan ahead!).

    
        		1986	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991
    			----	----	----	----	----	----
    
    Purim		25 Mar	15 Mar	3 Mar	21 Mar	11 Mar	28 Feb
    	14 Adar
    
    Pesach (8 Days)	24 Apr	14 Apr	2 Apr	20 Apr	10 Apr	5 Apr
	15-22 Nisan

    Shavuot (2 Days)	13 Jun	3 Jun	22 May	9 Jun	30 May	19 May
    	6-7 Sivan
    
    Rosh Hashana(2 Days) 4 Oct	24 Sep	12 Sep	1 Oct	20 Sep	9 Sep
    	1-2 Tishrei

    Yom Kippur		13 Oct	3 Oct	21 Sep	9 Oct	29 Sep	18 Sep
    	10 Tishrei
    
    Sukkot (8 Days)	18 Oct	8 Oct	26 Sep	14 Oct	4 Oct	23 Sep
    	15-22 Tishrei
    
    Shemini Atzeret	25 Oct	15 Oct	3 Oct	21 Oct	11 Oct	30 Sep
    	22 Tishrei
    
    Simchat Torah	26 Oct	16 Oct	4 Oct	22 Oct	12 Oct	1 Oct
    	23 Tishrei
    
    Hannukah (8 Days)	27 Dec	16 Dec	4 Dec	23 Dec	12 Dec	2 Dec
    	25 Kislev
    
    
    All holidays start the night before the dates indicated.
    
    I hope this is of use in your planning.
    Jack

I know this is dangerous, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it would 
be useful to be able to tell people planning meetings and courses 

	1. Which holidays mean that people may have to leave early to attend 
	   a service at sundown, and

	2. Which days are going to be a particular problem for most Jewish 
	   people.  

I know the second one is partularly hard, since the range of observance 
probably covers the spectrum, even within DEC.  

Let's try to avoid an "any-real-Jew-ought-to" war.  Here is my first cut.
Please suggest switches or additional days in each category (signified by 
the line), if appropriate:

Assume virtually all Jews will not be at work on:

    First day of Rosh Hashana
    Yom Kippur

Assume many Jews will not be at work on:

    Second day of Rosh Hashana

    ________________________
    

Assume most Jews will wish to leave early the eve of:

    Rosh Hashana
    Yom Kippur
    First two nights of Passover

    -------------------------

Assume most Jews will wish to leave early the eve of:


    -------------------------


Some Jews will leave early the eve of, and/or be out:


    -------------------------

    [This is where I really need help, since I am not from a traditional 
    background.  Please fill in both the holiday and the number of days.]


If we can't get a recommendation from *this* notes file, how can your
j-random manager ever begin to make real plans.

Thanks,

Alex

	I am wondering if this has been mentioned in HUMAN::DIGITAL.

	Hit P 7 or SELECT.

	

    With all these rules, it probably belongs in NOVA::EXPERT (systems).
    
    Don't press KP7 or SELECT.

Not much progress in three years...IDECUS 1989/ 25,26,27 April overlapping
end of Passover.  Rumor has it that they have box lunches with matzah as
their recognition of the holiday...

   We had planned to participate and show off some of our Hebrewized
   products as part of the International Engineering booth.  We had 
   to cancel when we heard the dates.  The relevant people were told 
   exactly why we cancelled.

    Yes, it screwed me up too.  Guess DEC struck out across the board
    this year with DECworld and IDECUS.
    
    Re:-1
    
    Too bad Alan, I would have loved to have seen the Hebraisized S/W.
    
    David 

My 1990 Weekly Minder calendar claims that Passover 1991 will start
on Mar. 30.

On the other hand, note 88.14 says...
    
"        		1986	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991
    			----	----	----	----	----	----
    
    
    Pesach (8 Days)	24 Apr	14 Apr	2 Apr	20 Apr	10 Apr	5 Apr
	15-22 Nisan
"

Does anyone know which date is correct? 

	Thanks.

    March 30 is the first day, April 5 is the 7th (for some the last, and
    for others the penultimate day, of the festival).

    I know this file has long been dormant but it is a subject near and
    dear to my heart and wonder if anyone has come up with any further
    suggestions for how to handle this.
    
    I have (stupidly) worked many Friday nights and rationalized that it
    was more important to safeguard my paycheck than to light candles with
    my husband and after all, he works on Friday nights so how observant
    are we REALLY?  I kept quiet, except for some grumbling when a sales
    rep was hired and forced to go to mandatory sales training on Yom
    Kippur, after all, he was married to a non-Jewish woman so he wouldn't
    be taken seriously for complaining, right?  And then when a major
    proposal meeting was scheduled for Rosh Hashanah, I did complain, but I
    dropped it when the sales rep apologized and said he couldn't avoid it
    since there were so many other (read: more important) people involved. 
    When the meeting was rescheduled because one of the other people also
    refused to attend I passed it off as more sexism than anti-semitism
    (nice choice we get to make when BOTH are so prevalent).  Then when a
    proposal effort slipped and I was told that it had to be done on the
    High HolyDays the following year I painstakingly explained that I just
    COULDN'T do it, that this was a holiday with a significance comparable
    to Easter and that I would work on Sunday to make up for having the
    audacity to take my own vacation time to pray in temple when they had
    this IMPORTANT project...and then I had to do MAJOR explaining when my
    counterpart volunteered to pick up the project since she is also
    Jewish, albeit non-observant.  I tried to explain to her that I respect
    her right to forego her upbringing and not celebrate the holiday, but
    that since there are so few of us and it is so difficult to gain any
    respect for our days of observance I would consider it a personal favor
    if she would support me on this.  NO LUCK!!!  
    
    I take vacation time and try to explain whenever the situation comes up
    and deal with the snide comments about how "lucky" I am to be Jewish
    because I have so many holidays.  Yeah, real lucky that NONE of them
    are recognized.  Volunteering to come in on Christmas or to hang around
    and work on an "official" work day like Good Friday when the office
    unofficially shuts down and everyone from managers on down goes home
    only makes my coworkers hostile and further alienates me from the
    people whose understanding I am trying to obtain.
    
    I finally decided to REFUSE to work on Saturdays or late on Friday
    nights, no matter what the project or how IMPORTANT it is, if it is
    truly important, maybe a little advance planning would be in order. 
    But it is very frustrating.  How does everyone else handle this?
    
    And as far as the "perks" like DEC100 and the kick-off meetings with
    virtually no kosher food options...well, sometimes I can request
    special arrangements but that is very inconsistent and depends on the
    cooperation of the person organizing the event.  Usually a can of tuna
    fish in my purse is my best bet.
    
    Oh well, enough rambling, I will probably be able to eat kosher meals
    while working all Summer, able to observe every holiday without taking
    vacaction time and not hear one single ignorant or prejudiced comment,
    because I am probably going to be TSFO'd, just thought I'd rant and
    rave a bit before then.
    
    Oh yeah, I was forced to change a reference in a document which I had
    typed in as "Acts of G_d", to include the "o" because my reasoning that
    it was omitted out of awe and respect wasn't deemed significant to
    counteract the confusion which might result.  I am still annoyed at
    myself for yielding to the pressure.  
    
    Take care,
    
    Sylvia
                                                                    

    The last day of the fiscal year (and each fiscal quarter) is always
    a Friday.  During my first year in sales, everyone was waiting around
    late friday afternoon, bringing in those last POs, etc.  By 6:30pm I
    knew that the year was over so I left to make my hour long commute so
    that I could make it in time for Shabbos.
    
    The next Monday, one of the Sales execs took me aside and scolded me for
    not staying around longer to support all the rest of the salepeople in
    their last minute efforts.  I told him I had to get home before
    sundown.  He then asked me whether I would have gone home if an order
    of mine were about to come in?  I told him that I would have arranged
    for someone else to process it if needed, but that Shabbos was more
    important.  He was speechless!  I think he finally believed me when I
    passed going to DEC100 because it was held on Shabbos.
    
    ___Av 
    
    

    	When I was at Interop in Washington last month, I paused in front
    of their giant sign advertising future shows to copy the dates into my
    appointment book.  I noted that Fall Interop 94 (in Atlanta) is
    scheduled in direct conflict with Yom Kippur, which is Wednesday night
    and Thursday of that week.  This will have the effect of freezing a
    large majority of Jews out of being able to participate in the show,
    which runs Wednesday-Friday, in any meaningful way.  

    	I have sent e-mail to Interop, Inc., and have not yet heard back
    from them, telling them that this is comparable to planning a show
    during a week when Xmas falls on a Thursday.  They simply wouldn't
    think of doing *that*, now, would they?  I also sent them a copy of the
    list of holidays through 1999.

    		David

Don't think this only happens to observant Jews; it happens to Christians, too.
There is a strong anti-religious sentiment in the U.S., and it's growing.

The week before Holy Week my secretary (Bryna) sent out a request to schedule
a two hour meeting.  I told her that I was available at any time on Monday
or Tuesday, and any time until 4 PM on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.

She called me back and told me that the only time she could schedule the
meeting was 3-5 on Thursday.  I told her that I had an obligation to leave
at 4:00; she decided to schedule the meeting anyway and let the other people
continue the meeting without me.

/john

re last few notes

A small story on a relevant line.

In 1937 my father arrived in England as a young penniless refugee from Nazi 
Germany.   

Wishing to study at the University of London, he was required to
undergo entrance exams in English and Mathematics at the University. He went 
to the appropriate office about 3 months before the due dates, and discovered
to his chagrin, that the Mathematics exam was scheduled for the first day of 
Succot (Tabernacles).   When he protested to the person in charge, he was 
told that on no account could the date be changed, maybe if he had told them 
two years in advance when the Univ. calendar was compiled....   Unwilling to
lose a year's studies just because the exam was scheduled on a day that fell
on the first day of Succot when he would not write, he asked what could be done.

The only choice was to take a special exam which was normally intended for
people who had been ill on the day of the regular exam.   The catch was that 
this privilege cost the small fortune of 37 shillings and sixpence, the
proverbial "arm and a leg" in those days.  This was to cover the costs of 
a different exam to be set and printed, and for the special invigilator who 
had to be present during the exam.  With no alternative, my Dad scraped 
the money together taking loans from various people.

On the appointed day, he turned up at the University and was ushered in to a
large hall with just one desk.   An old man shuffled in to the room and said
to him "You must have been very sick to be taking the exam today".  After my
father explained to him the reason why he was taking the special exam,  the
old chap replied "Isn't amazing, 3000 years after the Israelites were in booths
in the desert, there are still people today who remember that and celebrate
Tabernacles.  Good luck."

Well, to cut a long story short, my Dad passed the exam and received a few 
weeks later in the mail a letter with a short note stating that "Professor
Sykes understands that the special exam was taken for religious reasons,
and waives his invigilator's fee which is returned herewith".

It just goes to show, that if you are willing to stand up for your beliefs 
and principles, and able to explain them, there are people out there who 
will respect you for it and act accordingly.

Jonathan Wreschner 

    How you start off makes it easier or harder.  In my case, the first
    time a  holiday came up I simply told my manager that I would be out
    certain days (the first and seventh days of Pesach) and that I planned
    to work longer hours the week before to get my work done in advance.
    Ever since then, that has been my approach and I've never run into a
    problem (although now I've gotten to the point where I have so much
    vacation time accruing that I send my supervisor a memo several months
    in advance, specifying the days I plan to take off).
    
    Granted, the kind of work I do makes it easier to be flexible, but I
    think it is more the attitude I communicate.  That is, I make a point
    of not asking or being confrontational or arguing; I simply tell the
    appropriate person what I am doing and why.  (E.g. "I will be out on
    May 26, which is the Jewish Shavuot holiday.")
    
    Aaron

A friend who works for Interop tells me that there is no conflict with
94 Atlanta and Yom Kippur; they say that the meeting is over before Yom
Kippur and that the supposed conflict is being used by their competition
to bash them.

/john

Well, Ole Jacobsen at Interop, who told me last week when I saw him in SFO
that Interop was over before Yom Kippur, appears to be misinformed; he just
sent me the dates and it does seem to last all week; I replied with the
date for Yom Kippur that David Ofsevit posted; we'll see what Ole has to
say (but I think he's in Europe at the moment, so I don't know how much
time he'll have for electronic mail, etc.)

/john