Conference taveng::bagels

I would be interested in this Christian-Jewish friendship org.

Michael

The weekly newspaper of the (R.C.) Diocese of Worcester recently published
2 or 3 articles discussing official condemnation of anti-Semitism. They also
had a review of the movie SHOAH. If you like, I'll see if I can dig them
up....

Dick

    	It's bound to happen sooner or later. The other week I've had 
        my first experience with overt anti-Semitism. Someone tried to 
        burn the mezuzah on our front door while I was at shabbos 
        services. Our Rabbi inspected it and boruch Ha'shem the scroll 
        was not damaged.
    
    	My first reaction was disbelief but slowly I began to feel 
        anger. I started to wonder what is it that this person is 
        trying to accomplish? Did he enjoy doing it? Does he think I 
        am going to hide under my bed in fear? I discussed these 
        questions and others with some members of our congregation. It 
        seems that burning and stealing of mezuzahs in our area of 
        Worcester is not uncommon. Just the other week someone threw  
        a rock through a window at the Yeshiva.
    
    	It is only since I have moved to Massachusetts that I have 
        experiences anti-Semitism. By comparison, I lived in Virginia 
        for over three years. In a county twice as large as Worcester 
        County we were able to scrape together only thirty families 
        for our shul. We met on a classroom that we rented from a 
        Lutheran Church. Even under those circumstances, not once did 
        I ever experience the slightest hint of anti-Semitism.
    
				Shalom,
					Fred

In September, someone had broken into our schul (Not too difficult 
really) and placed all the books and papers they could find in the
middle of the room and set them on fire.  Fortunately, someone
came in before the place set fire, but not in time to catch the
slimes who did it.  This was in my home town of Baldwin, Long Island.
I could not believe that in THIS area where about 70% of the town
area is Jewish that there would be such a thing.

Last week, there was a message written in the synagogue reading that
"next time i'll burn the whole place."

Michal

	    Where did the whole "Jews killed Jesus" myth come from in
	the first place?
			<_Jym_>

From:	ISWISS::CURTIS       "Dick 'Aristotle' Curtis"  5-DEC-1985 11:31


[From the front page of the 8 Nov 85 edition of "The Catholic Free Press",
published by the (Roman) Catholic Diocese of Worcester, Mass.]

	POPE SPEAKS OF SACRED, UNIQUE LINKS WITH JEWS

	VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul II spoke of a "sacred" link between
Catholics and Jews [on] Oct. 28, and said the Church was working to free its
teaching of "negative or inaccurate" presentations of Judaism.

	He also urged Catholics to reflect on the Holocaust.

	The Pope made his remarks to Catholic and Jewish representatives on the
20th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council's declaration, "Nostra Aetate"
["On Our Age/Century"], a document the Pople said was "epoch-making" in improv-
ing Catholic-Jewish relations. It also was the opening day of the 12th annual
International Catholic-Jewish Liason Committee meeting, held in Rome Oct. 28
to 30. 

	Jewish leaders afterward said they saw part of the Pope's talk as an
important response to their criticism of a recent document on Jews and Judaism.

	Catholics have a "sacred" and unique link with Jews, the Pope said,
built on their common spiritual heritage. Because of that relationship, the
Church is always prepared to make changes "in its attitude and ways of expres-
sion", he said.

	"Nostra Aetate" warned against anti-Semitism in Catholic preaching and
teaching.

	Pope John Paul said the Vatican's recently published document: "Notes
on the Correct Way to Present the Jews and Judaism in Preaching and Catechesis
in the Catholic Church" will "greatly help toward freeing our catechetical and
religious teaching of a negative or inaccurate presentation of Jews and 
Judaism."

	Several Jewish leaders had sharply criticized the document as inad-
equate in its treatment of modern Israel and the Holocaust.

	In his talk, the Pope made an apparent reference to these criticisms
when he said that the document said Catholics needed more theological reflec-
tion "to fathom the depths of the extermination of many million Jews during
the Second World War."

	Chief Rabbi Pynches Brener, co-chairman of the Interreligious
Affairs Commission of the World Jewish Council, said he was encouraged by the
papal talk, as well as the results of the first day of the interreligious
meeting.

	"Many of us felt that some statements in the 'Notes' meant we were
going to go in a different direction, or were taking a step backward. Today's
meeting made clear that we are going forward -- that was the message", he said.

	Rabbi Mordecai Waxman, chairman of the International Jewish Committee
on Interreligious Consultations, said the meeting provided "a positive state-
ment to the questions raised by the 'Notes' on the Holocaust." Rabbi Waxman had
been one of the strongest critics of the Vatican document when it was released
in June.

	But several Jewish leaders said they remained disappointed that the Pope
did not mention Israel. The Vatican does not have formal diplomatic relations
with the Middle Eastern country, although the Pope has met with Israeli leaders.

			PLACE OF ISRAEL

	"We feel that the Church must address itself to the question of Israel
because it is central to Jewish theology, its self-understanding and the 
creative response to the Holocaust," Rabbi Waxman said.

	In his talk, the Pope told the Catholic-Jewish group that "a firm grasp
of Catholic tradition and Catholic theology is certainly necessary" in order to
"understand our documents correctly".

	Rabbi Waxman said he thought the Pope's remarks were aimed at him and
other critics of the "Notes". But he said that such documents should avoid mis-
understandings by using clear language.

	"You need statemnets which are self-explanatory, not those that need
more commentary", he said.

	In a short talk to the Pope, Rabbi Waxman said Catholic-Jewish rela-
tions had improved tremendously since 1965 and had "encouraged Jews everywhere
to feel that there was a new spirit in the Christian world".

	But he added: "We have noted with distress, lapses from time to time
into the old and repudiated language by some Catholic authorities."

	Also on Oct. 28, Cardinal Johannes Willebrands, president of the
Vatican Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews, said the "Notes"
were an important step forward in Catholic understanding of the Holocaust
and the significance of Israel to Judaism.

	"For the first time the Catholic Church, at the highest level, has
told its catechists, its preachers and its teachers to consider the religious
link of the Jewish people with the land of their fathers as well as the exis-
tence of the State of Israel in the context of international law, and to try
to understand the meaning of the Holocaust", the cardinal told the liason
committee.

	From the Catholic viewpoint "there is no question of turning back,
but only of going forward", he added.

	"Anti-Semitism is perhaps [!] still alive", he said.

	"But it becomes every day more difficult to have it linked with
official, approved Catholic teaching", said the cardinal, a member of the
liason committee.


	- - -	- - -	- - -	- - -	- - -	- - -	- - -	- - -

	CATHOLICS, JEWS AGREE ON STUDY OF HOLOCAUST

	VATICAN CITY -- A group of Catholic and Jewish leaders meeting at the
Vatican has agreed to undertake a joint study of the Holocaust and its theo-
logical implications, said a statement released by the group last week. [around
the first of November -- Dick]

	The decision, part of a "program of action" announced by the group,
came two days after Pope John Paul II said Catholics should reflect more deeply
on the Holocaust, the extermination of several million Jews in Europe during
World War II.

	It also followed criticism by some Jewish leaders, who said the Vatican
had dealt inadequately with the Holocaust in a recent statement on Jews and
Judaism.

	The group, the International Catholic-Jewish Liason Committee, said
other joint initiatives would include:

	- Working to overcome "indifference, resistance and suspicion" about
Jewish-Catholic dialog.

	- Combatting "tendencies toward religious extremism and fanaticism".

	- Clarifying theolgical concepts used in both communities.

	- Coorperating in common action for peace and justice.

	The statement was made at the end of the three-day meeting in the
Vatican.

Re .5

During the years after Christ's death there was a strong competition especially
in Rome between Christianity and Judaism.  Romans were abonding their
polytheistic religion and moving towards monotheism.  The "Gospels" or 5
books written about Christ's life were written during this period the earliest
written about 87 years after thedeath of Christ.  The first of these was
fairly friendly towards the Jews but as time went on the later versions written
during the time of strong competition for the Romans became more hostile
towards the Jews and blamed them for the death of Christ.  This is the story
that has been carried down.

	    It has been admonishingly pointed out to me which passage in
	what is called the New Testament is interpreted as blaming "The
	Jews" for Christ's death.  I was startled that this passage has
	been interpreted that way.
	    Apparently it was when Pilate, with the aid of armed Roman
	soldiers, got a group of people to call for Christ's crucifixion
	so that he (and, of course, Rome) could wash his (and their)
	hands of the affair.  One would think that only the gullible
	would fall for such a ploy.  Even if one did fall for it, it
	makes no sense to blame "The Jews" for the acts of a few.
	    By parental decree, I went to Christian churches as a child.
	As I recall it, the point of that whole scene was to show how
	imperfect people are.  Not Jews, people.  Christ used to hang
	out in Israel, so it only makes sense that the people there
	would be Jewish.  Are we to believe that there was some kind of
	affirmative action policy to ensure that the condemners be a
	representative sample of the human race?
	    Finally, I believe one of the main points of Christianity
	has something about Christ dying willingly for the sins of
	everybody else.  Thus, it makes no sense for a Christian to
	blame "The Jews" for it; and it makes no sense for anybody else
	to care who did it!

			<_Jym_>

Heard last night by a visitor of my housemates:

	"The Jews make a fortune off of Xmas."

Right.

Micahel

A certain amount of anti-Semitism can be explained by two facts:

1. Many people fear (and then hate) people who are different. (I've heard
that the psychology of the baboon can be summarized as "See the stranger,
fear the stranger, hate the stranger, kill the stranger." There exist people
who aren't far from that.)

2. The Jews (who "keep the faith", at least) are different from the non-Jews
around them.

For hominids to whom the above applies, y'all just happen to be an easily
distinguishable group. Of course, sewage like "the Jews killed Christ" gives
them something they can express in words.

I've heard occasional remarks similar to .9, and some of what was mentioned
in the SHOAH review. This sounds like envy to me: I haven't succeeded on
my own, so I'll get pissed off at those who have. If you encounter such a
person (and can stand it long enough to observe a while), it might be of
interest to see which groups (and how many) they slander in an off-the-cuff
fashion.

I may be wrong, but I have the opinion that, in most places, few bigots get
very far. I don't know whether this is because bigotry makes a person less
likely (or able) to accomplish things of substance and merit, or whether
a person who is doing much and satisfying himself is making himself less
fertile ground for the growth of bigotry.

Dick
 

     re .10:
     
     I'm not sure I agree with your contention that "few bigots get very
     far".  Hitler, Amin, the continuing line of South African leaders,
     segregationist politicians in the South, Knesset member Kahane
     -- they all reached a certain level of success, and they got there
     with popular support.
     
     For some reason, many people are just xenophobic, and bigots feed
     on such people.  
     
     --Don

Damn, you're right... I'd been thinking of the blue-collar type of bigot
("Archie Bunker" without a laugh track).

Dick

                               
I was raised in England, and grew up with the British version of anti-semitism.
One in a while the school down the road would come over to our Jewish high
school and beat the sh*t out of us.
Once in a while we'd fight back.
                               
Mostly British anti-semitism is far less overt. It is very subtle. But its
there. Jobs, clubs and similar activities are limited sometimes-- discretely.
Maybe lately its a bit better. After all, there are now so many other immigrants
to be picked on that a European Jew will be picked out second.

Interesting footnote.
In university in London I was friends [  :-)  ]  with an Israeli female.
She had been out of Israel for only a couple of years and had come face-to-face
with Anti-semitism. Boy ! she was in shock for weeks. I guess in Israel
you can get pretty insulated. 

Is this typical for Israelis in the Galut ?

    
    
    	On Donahue this morning, this subject matter was:
    
    	"Wanted Dead or ALive, Khadafy"
    
    	One caller had called in the middle and said:
    
    	"I am getting really angry at all these people
    	pointing their fingers at Khadafy when he is not
    	the one causing all the trouble in the world;
    	It is Israel, we should be fighting Israel.  
    	[	Crown Boo's  (From Miami)]
    	Really, didn't you hear how the Israeli's rounded
    	up 1500 old men and children in Beirut and machined gun
    	them to death !  Didn't you hear how they tied Women
    	down on crosses like Christ and slit their throats ?"
    
    
    

    RE: Jews bumped off Jesus bunch
                       
    I always thought that life got bad for the Jews after the Nicean
    meeting around 325 AD.  Jesus got promoted to god-status, thanks
    to Constantine, over the objections of the Christian community in
    what is now Lebanon.  The Egyptian Christians were the big pushers
    of the god-status which had adopted a lot of the Sun-god worship
    stuff.  This had the side *benefit* of promoting Jews to god-killers
    and about one hundred years later produced the Mary myth (I've
    forgotten the Pope's name that promoted her).
    
    Needless to say, running around with the tag god-killer wasn't much
    fun.

From:	GRAMPS::LISS  "Frederick R. Liss DTN 237-3649  12-Feb-1986 1309" 12-FEB-1986 13:20
To:	NONAME::MAHLER
Subj:	Please put this in bagels under anti-Semitism

Below is a message from Stan Glazer that was posted on net.religion.jewish
I'm sure it's of interest to the group.

			Fred

***************************************************************************

Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Path: decwrl!decvax!bellcore!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!hou2f!stan
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism in the USSR & PEPSICO
Posted: 9 Feb 86 19:51:26 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ


        The following article appeared in the February 1986 issue of
_A_NICKEL_STOGIE_ the in-house publication of the B'nai B'rith Hillel
Foundation at the University of Rhode Island.  It relates both to the
discussions on anti-semitism and to previous discussions about using
PEPSICO products.

                         PEPSI'S BITTER AFTER TASTE

        "Anyone who is sympathetic to Jews, Israel, or Soviet Jewery
should know about the Pepsico Company.  Pepsico products are sold in 148
countries and territories with 49 plants in Arab countries, six in the
USSR and none in Israel.  Pepsico is a major contributor to the Jews for
Jesus type college organization and is our nation's number one lobby
AGAINST [emphasis is mine] Soviet Jewry.
        "Pepsico's Chairman and CEO was the chairman of the US Chamber of
Commerce during one of the dirtiest battles launched by industry against 
Israel to `push through' the sale of AWACS to Saudi Arabia and
tanks to enable Saudi plane to reach Israel in addition to battle tested
air-to-air missiles.
        "Pepsico (which includes Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, Wilson Sporting
Goods, and the drinks Teem,Pepsi, Patio, Slice and Mountain Dew) [you
can now also add their latest acquistion Seven-up] was listed among the
larger contributors for `honorariums' to Rep. Paul Findley, who is
Arafat's spokesman in Congress."

Just in case my sentiments are not clear in my posting the above article,
my family does not serve Pepsi-Cola and we do support a complete boycott
Pepsico products.

                                        Stan Glazer
                                        AT&T-Bell Labs
                                        Holmdel, NJ
                                        hou2!stan

    

    Ah, Pepsico!  That reminds me of a little story I read someplace.
    Back after the '67 war, the Israeli soldiers moving into Quneitra
    (haGolan) found a Pepsi billboard.  As a sure sign of their victory,
    they replaced it with a Coke sign.
    
    In the Great Scheme of Things, Pepsi represents Arabs, USSR, WASPs,
    Republicans.  Coke represents Israelis, China, Hispanics, Democrats.
    Pepsi's lawyer back in the '60s was a fella named Dick Nixon.  
    'Nuff said.

    Re:  51.17
    
    It seems a strange mixture:  "Arabs, USSR, WASPs, Republicans".
    I always thought that the Rupublicans were the strongest opponents
    of the USSR and supporters of Israel.
    
    Leo

    Consistency is not intended.
    
    Democrats are at least as strong, in general, as supporters of
    Israel as republicans.  The latter, however, tend to favor mammoth
    (potlatch) military hardware expenditures as a way of showing off
    to the Russians, while the former prefer to pursue diplomacy and
    spend the money domestically instead.
    
    Raygun's foreign policy tries to paint the world in US vs. USSR
    terms.  It doesn't always map.  Democratic administrations have
    been more willing to view different issues separately.  Support
    for Israel is however viewed as non-Partisan.
    

    I am afraid that we are getting here into politica{ discussion which
    can be endless and have nothing to do with the subject "bagels".
    The only thing that I say to the pr{vious note is that I saw the
    "both sides of the barricade" and because of that I am a stong
    supporter of beeing strong before starting talking.
    
    Leo

            I know it's nearly two years since a note was entered on this 
        topic, but those of us who are fairly new have a lot to catch 
        up on ! I would just like to address a few points which I hope 
        will clear up a few misconceptions which appear to be floating 
        around.
        
        re.5
        
        The gospels only number four, not five. They are split into two 
        groups, the synoptic gospels and John's gospel. The three 
        synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke, are so called because 
        much of what is written therein was based on the same source 
        material. Mark's gospel, the shortest of the four, was written 
        by Mark, a follower of Peter (one of the twelve apostles). He 
        based his testimony on the teachings of Peter about his time 
        spent with Jesus. Matthew and Luke drew heavily on Mark's 
        account for their own, and included evidence from eye witness 
        sources too. The gospel of John was not based on Mark's gospel 
        and that is why it is not one of the synoptic accounts.
        
        re.15
        
        The Council of Nicea met to sort out many of the problems which 
        the early church was facing at the time. Many cults and fringe 
        doctrines were springing up (such as Gnosticism) and the Council 
        convened to put down guidelines which would draw the early Church 
        together. It thus decided to put down in writing as a statement 
        of faith, or creed, the basic teachings of the New Testament. 
        A result was the Nicene Creed which does talk of the divinity of 
        Jesus. However, this doctrine of Jesus' deity was not simply 
        dreamed up by the Council but was based on New Testament (and 
        arguably Old Testament) teachings to that end. Way before the 
        Council of Nicea, the Christians had accepted Jesus as G-d 
        incarnate, just as the early Christians were using the New 
        Testament which the Council endorsed as canon.
        
        
        Thanks for listening,
        
        Paul V

    
    RE .21
    
    	Unfortunately your statements create more misconceptions than
    they "clear up". Please reread .5, it is far more accurate than
    your statements.
    
    	Having studied the ancient texts and various interpretations
    of them I have personally reached the following conclusions;
    
    1. Never take anything you read at face value. Only fools do that.
    2. History, especially ancient history, is constantly evolving as
       new discoveries are made.
    3. Each group or religion will interpret a document to serve their
       best interests whether they be religious, political, etc.
    
    It is your right to state what you believe to be fact. However,
    people should be aware that many ancient history scholars see
    things differently than you do. :-)
    

    
    re .22
    
    My reference to .5 should be to .7 !
    Why is it more accurate than what I said ?
    How have I been unclear ?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul V