Conference taveng::bagels

Re: .0

   I feel that the question you're raising does, indeed, come 
down to Orthodox vs. Conservative vs. Reform.  However, out of 
respect for your request to exclude that issue from this note, 
I'll only address a few points that come to mind:

  TERMINOLOGY:  It's REFORM not _Reformed_.  I'll assume you are 
using the latter term out of ignorance, rather than malice.  I've 
found that, when one sincerely wants to understand how a group of 
people feels/interacts/behaves/etc., it is best to refer to them 
as they refer to themselves. I myself to not belong to the Reform 
movement, but I understand the semantic distinction to be one of 
continuing process ("Reform") vs. an event that has already occurred 
("Reformed").  Surely any even cursory study of the history of the Reform 
movement in this country will show that there have been 
significant changes in attitudes and practice.

  ON MAMZERUT:  On what do you base your contention that two Jews who 
marry in a civil ceremony _a_priori_ have mamzerim for children?
My understanding is that the state of mamzerus (illegitimacy) 
only obtains when the child is a result of a forbidden sexual 
relationship (e.g., adultery, incest).  Can you cite a p'sak 
(ruling by a respected authority) on this?  In response to my 
question of needing a _get_, I got a lot of mail regarding just 
what makes _kiddushin_ ( a lawful Jewish marriage, requiring the 
bill of divorcement).  One of the points made was that, according 
to some authorities, a civil marriage is not _kiddushin_, but that 
does NOT mean that the children are mamzerim.

  ON CONVERSION:  I have met several people who went through the 
conversion process with Reform rabbis.  All of them were quite 
aware that their conversion might not be acceptable in the eyes 
of all rabbis.  I'm sure there are exceptions, just as there are 
some Orthodox rabbis whose conversions are not considered 
"kosher" by the Israeli rabbinate.  However,  the Reform movement 
seems to be (quite vocally) aware that conversions are not 
accepted by the Orthodox.

	I'm glad that you emphasized where you are coming from.  
I don't understand why the Rabbi of your shul didn't make the 
conversion problem clear to the father of the boy you mentioned 
well before the Bar Mitzvah day, to allow the father to do 
something about it.  (If he did, but the father didn't do 
anything, I apologize; however, I would then wonder 
where the father's head was at, to be hurt to not be 
called up).

 I would like to see a note about the 
differences between the Lubavitch and other Orthodox trends 
(e.g., Modern Orthodoxy, Young Israel, etc.)


Bobbi

p.s.  Am I the only woman reading this notesfile?

On reform conversion:

My wife has recently become a Jew by Choice with our reform rabbi.  
We were informed that the conversion might not be accepted by some 
orthodox rabbis, and given several options as to how we wished to proceed.

Fully understanding the possible ramifications, my wife chose to 
forgo the mikvah (she was *very* pregnant at the time), but she did 
appear before a bet din.  Others we met during the course of study we took 
had different options/requirements, depending on the rabbi.

Len.

re: 0,1    Mamzerut

Bobbi is correct; a Mamzer is the result from illicit relations. The Talmud
discusses the matter quite extensively and there is an arguement whether all
punishable illicit relations produce a Mamzer even if the punishment is only
a negative commandment punishable by whipping (Malkot) or perhaps only
illicit relations punishable by death (either from G-d (Karet) or from the
courts (Mitat Bet Din) produce a Mamzer. The final law (Psak) is according 
to the latter view.

At any rate, a Jewish man and woman who were married in a civil marriage 
do not come under either of these categories.

Cb.
 

re .1

No, Bobbi, you are not the only woman reading this notes file, just one of the
most visible ones.  Keep it up; you're doing a great job (along with the rest
of you writers!).  I'm really learning a lot here.

Jill

Some notes on conversion...

I went through conversion about 2 1/2 years ago.  The classes I 
attended were sponsored by Conservative synagogues.  My husband, who 
was at that time my fiance, was brought up Reform (his father was 
Orthodox and his mother Reform).  

My husband had no problem in accepting my conversion, once he got over 
the fact that one minute I was Catholic and the next Jewish, but his
mother did!  Our rabbi had to talk to her to convince her of the
conversion. Luckily, the rabbi has a son-in-law who converted to
Judaism, and since he fully accepted the son-in-law, my husband's
mother decided I was OK, but grudgingly. (In fact, when I was
introduced to his mother and we told her we were engaged, all she did
was object because I was not Jewish, so I guess being accepted
grudgingly is better than nothing.) 

I went before a Bet Din, and about a week after that, went to the 
mikveh.  As far as I know, since I've gone to the mikveh, my 
conversion is acceptable to most, except maybe Israel.  The other 
converts and I were made _very_ aware of the fact that Reform
conversions are not totally accepted.  During our classes (my husband 
was required to attend with me), we went to a lecture about conversion 
and met a young woman converting to Orthodox Judaism.  Her conversion 
was going to take 3 years or so.  In comparison, my conversion took 
about 6 months.  

We are members of a Conservative shul, and have not made public my 
conversion, though I'm sure that many people know about it.  Our 
marriage ceremony took place at this shul and was done by our rabbi, 
who also guided my conversion.  Our reception was also held there and 
we served Kosher food.  

We hope that what we did will make things not too difficult for any 
children we may have, and expect our children to be accepted as Jews, 
though one never knows about the future.

A few months ago, in THE JOURNAL, the newspaper of the Northshore 
Jewish Community, a rabbi wrote a series of columns on the problem of 
conversions and how they will affect the future generations.  For 
example, if a woman is converted by a Reform rabbi, she and her 
cildren are accepted as Jews by Reform Jews.  If she went to the 
mikveh, as some Reform rabbis offer the opportunity, then she and her 
children will be accepted as Jews by the Conservative, also, and 
maybe the Orthodox.  The problem seems to lie with the mikveh. 

If this woman did not go the mikveh, and her child was brought up as a
Jew, and this child decides to marry another Jew of either
Conservative or Orthodox background, then there is a problem.  The
child is not recognized as a Jew by the Conservative and Orthodox, and
must either go to the mikveh or marry elsewhere.  If this child
proceeds with the marriage without the mikveh (civil ceremony), then,
if female, the resulting children are not Jews in the eyes of the 
Conservative and Orthodox, but are Jews in the eyes of the Reform. 

In the future, more and more rabbis will be asking for proof of 
Jewishness in order to avoid this type of problem.

Would someone please explain "mikveh" for one of the interested goyim?

Thanks,
Jeff.

A mikveh is special pool (bath) of water that has been prepared 
according to Jewish law.  To go to the mikveh means that you ritually 
immerse yourself (nude), head to toe, in the water and recite certain 
blessings, depending on the occasion for the immersion.  It is a 
cleansing ritual.  In this area, there is a mikveh in Brookline, MA 
that I used.

As a convert, there had to be three witnesses for my immersion - a 
little difficult when you are female and the witnesses are male.  What 
happened was that a pious woman, who takes care of the mikveh, was my 
witness and held a sheet over the door so the rabbis could not see me. 
I had to immerse myself 3 times, and when I did it correctly, she 
nodded to the rabbis.  After each immersion, I had to recite a 
blessing, which the rabbis replied to.  When I came out of the mikveh, 
I was Jewish - sounds a little like magic, but, in essence, by 
immersing myself in the mikveh, I became reborn.  I would imagine that 
baptism somehow derived from this ritual.

    	Perhaps I was unclear in my original note. I am not saying 
        that a particular level of observance (Reform, Conservative, 
        or Orthodox) is intrinsically better than another. We each do 
        what we think is right. Observance of the Law, which does not 
        grow out of love of the Law, might as well not be practiced. 
        It is said that following the Mitzvos can be either a labor of 
        love or a millstone about your neck, depending on your frame 
        of mind. I know what is right for me. At the same time I have 
        no wish to impose what I think is right on anyone else.
    
    	My point is this. In most cases a persons level of observance 
        is a matter of choice. My own daughter considers herself 
        Reform. However, if she chooses to marry Orthodox there is 
        nothing to impede her. Now, look at the same situation three 
        or four generations from now. If the present trends continue 
        the gap between Reform and Orthodox may grow so wide that we 
        look at each other as different religions.
    
    	Again I will state that I am not trying to impose my views on 
        anyone else. I'm just supplying some food for thought.
    
    	               Fred
    

There are several questions here.

The distinction between what each branch recognizes as "law" varies
and from that lies the difference in observance more that just a
level of what is considered law.  Many of the "laws" are actually
traditions that are so accepted that they have come down as laws.
Also the question of by what authority does one interpet the laws
and what interpertaion does one accept.  The Orthodox does not
accpt any interpertation following the Mishnah other groups
feel that there is in fact new interpertations possible.  Many
of the interpertations were based on life then.  An example
is walking on the Sabbath.  The general rule is that one should
not ride but walk on the Sabbath.  In fact there is a prohebition
on how far one can walk from there home.  Then there is a way of
symbolically extending ones home so that one can walk further than
proscribed.  The final question is who you accept as an authority.
With no "pope" there is always a question of the interpertation
of the law.  Since no one can be sure what is exactly G-ds true
laws are since only G-d knows for sure then all is interpertation.

WS

An excellent book to read is
"The Jewish Book of Whys"

WS

Re: my registration (32.27) - I asked for book recommendations to enlighten
myself and my boyfriend, Les, who is Catholic... This "Jewish Book of Whys"..

...what types of topics does it cover?  Would it educate an under-educated
Jew?  Would it be of any value to a Christian who would like to know more
about my heritage?  Who is the author...

Any other book recommendations would be helpful, unless you feel this book
would cover all the bases..

Thanks.
Donna

Sorry about the delay in responding to your request for more
information regarding the "The Jewish Book of Whys".  Murphy's
law struck again.  we have been unable to find our copy. As soon
as we do we will let you know more about the book.  I will tell
you that the book is well written and easy to understand.  It is
a series of questions with very lucid answers.  If there is a
slant though the author claims to have none it might be a
Conservative view.  The book covers everyday life and the 
holidays.  The book would be very good for a non-Jew since
it takes an approach that a non-Jew might take.  "Why do Jews do
what they do and why?".  

I will follow up with the author and publisher as sonn as I can.

WS

I passed a Jewish Bookstore at lunch and got the information.

Title  The Jewish Book of Why
Author Alfred J. Kolatch
Publisher Johnathan David
ISBN 0-8246-0256-0

Price 12.95

There is now a Volume II.

WS

A note on Conversion. 

My wife who is a Jew By Choice, actually converted twice. The first time
was thru the Rabbi associated with the Hillel organization at the school
we went to. The second time was with the Rabbi from the shul we were going to
get married at. The only difference; the first rabbi and the other two witnesses
were reform, the second rabbi and his two witnesses were orthodox. They used
the exact same procedure, and even the same mikveh. Again, the only difference
was the affiliation of the rabbis. The only way we could get married at the
orthodox shul was by going thru the second conversion.

Books-

Another good book which describes many of the Jewish practices with a slight
orthodox bent, is called LIVING JEWISH. It briefly describes very many different
aspects of Jewish life and Jewish law. I do not know the author off hand,
but if anyone is interested, I can get it for you.

RE .5

< A few months ago, in THE JOURNAL, the newspaper of the Northshore 	>
< Jewish Community, a rabbi wrote a series of columns on the problem of >
< conversions and how they will affect the future generations.  For 	>
< example, if a woman is converted by a Reform rabbi, she and her 	>
< cildren are accepted as Jews by Reform Jews.  If she went to the 	>
< mikveh, as some Reform rabbis offer the opportunity, then she and her >
< children will be accepted as Jews by the Conservative, also, and 	>
< maybe the Orthodox.  The problem seems to lie with the mikveh. 	>

    Having similar experience to Linda, I would like to add my $.02.
    If you look in the Halacha Newsletter note you will see various
    statements which contradict the ones here.  I have also had more
    information from an Orthodox Rabbi (a friend of my wife's family).
    The problem is not just with the procedure (though that problem
    exists).  There is also a problem with the Rabbis.  A conversion
    requires a Bet Din (Rabbinic Court).  This can only be made up of
    rabbis.  Many, not all, Orthodox rabbis do not acknowledge the
    qualifications of non-Orthodox rabbis.  Therefore, even if the
    procedure were carried out perfectly, it is invalid because the
    people who performed the procedure were not rabbis.  My impression
    is that this is not the opinion of the majority of Orthodox rabbis
    (at least where Conservatives are concerned).  It is the opinion
    of a sizable and vocal minority.

    Does anyone know what the Orthodox arguments are against the validity
    of Conservative and Reform rabbis and what they insist on as the
    requirements for Orthodox simcha (ordination).  How about the Israeli
    Chief Rabbinate?

    Linda,

    Was your study and conversion here in Mass.?  If so, with Gerim Institute?

    Gavriel