Conference taveng::bagels

This would be the first I have ever heard of a company
respecting Jewish holidays.  I, for one, would like to have
off on Yom Kippur as I hate being at work when I should be
in shul. 
	Let me know by MAIL what happens in your situation.
Mike

I used to work for Datapro Research at one time, part of McGraw-Hill.  
Their policy was (and still is as far as I know) to allow Jewish employees
up to three days off with pay for Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

I have never worked on the High Holidays, and I have worked in some
rather oppressive places (before DEC, and even the Board Shop in DEC 
qualifies). 

Only once was I ever forced to use vacation days in order to take the 
Holidays off.

What I have found is that usually your Manager has the power to grant 
you the days off, if he/she wants to. NOTE: This is NOT OFFICIAL DEC 
(or any other Company's) policy! [As was quite properly explained to me 
at Raytheon, there are many third-world religions with 40-50 holy days 
per year. A company can Not legally allow the practices of one religion 
and deny another religion. Unfortunately, Christian holidays have been 
given legal holiday status by our governments and are thus not looked 
upon as an exception.]

Personally, I average 45-50 hours per week, work on Saturdays/Sundays, 
anytime that it is necessary to get the job done (all on salary, of 
course). Therefore, I feel that I am entitled to a favor now and then, 
but I do not abuse the privilege. It's the old story of "one hand 
washes the other". Now, if you are employed as an hourly person and 
paid for overtime, you might have a larger problem convincing your 
manager that he should be given a special "favor".

Good luck,

Len

I've been with DEC for 13 years and have never worked on
Rosh Hashonah or Yom Kippur, nor have I counted them as
vacation.

On the other hand, I'm a programmer and work strange hours,
and DEC doesn't seem to care when I work as long as I get my
work done on time.

In the almost nine years I have spent with DEC I have always taken off
for the holidays. Whether or not I have to use vacation time seems to be
at the descretion of my manager. 

			Shalom,
				Fred

What year is it ?

Mike

			5746

Thought so... last year I guessed 5745 and was on target, but
I always forget... shame on me I know...
But it was such a long time ago since I ate that apple....(%^})

Mike

Back to taking days off... I find that succot is the most problematic of
all, because "everyone" has heard of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, but 
no-one has heard of Succot.  Same problem with Shavuot and the last days
of Pesach (people think I'm nuts when I try to explain about 8-day holidays,
hol hamoed, etc.). It's like I'm really stretching their credibility to the
limit.    So what do I do??  I don't count the holidays that my manager 
understands to be holidays (R"H, Y"K, first days of Pesach) as vacation
and don't worry about them at all.  With the rest, I try to make sure that
I actually put in at least 40 hours, by working late and coming in on Sundays.

Most of my time at Dec, I've been doing work that didn't necessarily require
my presence during office hours, so people haven't had much of a problem
with this.  A couple of times, I chose to forego the hassle of resentful
coworkers, suspicious management, and sacrificeing my Sundays, and took
a couple of vacation days.   There are no official DEC policies on all this,
so your best bet is to be sincere about giving DEC an honest day's work
for your paycheck, be on friendly terms with your manager, and wing it.
I do feel that I am to some extent imposing on the company with my meshugas...
Decus's are often a problem, and I am very grateful that people have been
willing to schedule my talks around them (I'm going to be spending R"H this
year in Cannes, and giving all my talks on Wed and Thur.  I'll have to miss
a couple of sessions which I really should be at, and I don't feel good about
that. )  Wanna hear a good one? There's a 3-rd party software house 
(called, of all things, Software House) that is owned by frum Jews.  They
have a yearly conference, at which I spoke last year.  Well, they invited
me back this year.  What's the date they invited me for?  Yom Kippur, of
course.

Sometimes this all makes me think how much easier it would be to work in
Israel.  Only one day of Yom Tov, and you don't have to make special 
arrangements to take it off, either!

Kathy

Personal Experience:

You can work any of a thousand different deals with your manager.  In 
most cases it just involves making up the time in some other way.  I've 
always taken the days off, but only used vacation time when I had 
already accumulated the limit.  As with Stan, I am an engineer and am 
not measured on attendence records nearly so much as on meeting 
commitments.  I almost always work more than 40 hours/week, so I don't worry 
about the extra holiday I take off a couple of times a year.

As a Supv:

The above holds true for the people I supervise.  As long as they get 
the work done, I don't worry about the extra day here and there.


Of course, I'm not religous enough to worry about taking off pesach, 
etc.  You very well may have to take them as unpaid vacation.

 Hi guys:  I am a protestant,  but always curious about other cultures so
pardon my stupidity,  but could you explain what is the idea around 'Rosh
Hashana' and 'Yom Kippur'?

'Interested' Chilly.

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New year.
It lasts two days as opposed to the one day observed by many other cultures.
It is on this day that you ask forgiveness from G-d for your sins
and pray that you are entered into the Good side of the Book of life.
(Yep, there is a bad side.)


Yom Kippur is the Highest of the holy days.  It is on this day that
all Jews remember those who have passed on and try to resolve
our own internal conflicts (within ourselves).  On this day, nothing is
to be done.  You also do not eat from the previous nights sundown till
sundown on Yom Kippur.  You are to sit still and do absolutely
nothing all day and previous night.  Thought, in this day and age, it
is difficult to accept sitting still.  Most people spend the
day in Shul (Synagogue) and pray and then break the fast with a
Kaddish (ceremonial "feast") after the sundown.  This usually
consists of sponge cake and sweet wine. (Though I usually
go for a pizza....).

Well, since this note came up, perhaps there should be a note started
for every Jewish holiday...

Micahhel

	It's me, the "yenta", again.
                             
	First of all, thanks for all the advice. My manager has told me
	that Yom Tov won't be a problem. (I'm here two years and haven't
	had any problems yet).
                             
	Without getting long-winded, a good place to start for those interested
	in Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (or anything Jewish) is, of course,
	the Torah (Bible, Old Testament,etc.)

	Rosh Hashana -- Leviticus 23:23-25
			Numbers   29:1-6

	Yom Kippur   --	Leviticus 23:26-32
			Leviticus 16:1-34
			Numbers	  29:7-11

	Some MAIN concepts for Rosh HaShana are the blowing of the shofar
	(rams horn) and repentance. Yizkor (or the remembering of those
	passed on) is practiced on every Jewish Holiday, not just Yom
	Kippur. Rosh Hashana was really meant to be a one day holiday
	and the reason why it is kept as two days today (even in Israel)
	is a long story.

	Some MAIN concepts for Yom Kippur are repentance and prayer, brought
	about by abstention (no food + four other "Inuyim" or afflictions).
	By sitting around and do nothing, I hope you meant repenting! There
	was a special service done at the time of the temple with two
	goats, hence the modern term "scapegoats", of which the Jewish people
	are painfully aware.

	There are many, many laws and customs associated with Rosh Hashana
	and Yom Kippur. (I have never heard of the sponge cake and sweet
	wine, it was probably started by someone in your synagogue that
	didn't know what else to get.) If there is interest, we could
	probably post something appropriate for the upcoming holidays
	(something like the net.religion.jewish dvar torah). But the
	real place to look is a Hebrew book store or a knowledgeable
	Rabbi.

			dave

Wow, you are a "yenta" or maybe a "Mench" ?
I was half-joking about the sponge cake -- it is a very cliche' 
Kaddish offering in NY shuls...
                                      
I was triyng to keep it simple for those who are not Jewish as
the Yiddush and ritual explanations can get fairly complicated
and confusing... hence, "Sit around and do nothing".

Micahel

re .11, .12, .13
The biblical references to Rosh Hashana don't explain much about it at all
(in fact, they are positively confusing, since they say, "on the first day
of the seventh month...." what kind of New Year is it that happens in the
seventh month??  but that's a rathole down which I will not go. at present.)

Jews celebrate Rosh Hashana as being
  - the birthday of the world.  
  - a day of accounts
  - a day for turning to God 

  - the birthday of the world.  
	On the birthday of the world we re-acknowledge the creator
	as our highest king, and re-accept our responsiblity to obey
	his will.

  - a day of accounts
	Kind of like Dec does Fiscal Year planning, we imagine the Almighty
	also reviews our actions of the past year, and 'plans' our
	fate and the world's fate for the coming year. 
	When we accept God as our king, we accept also that he is a just
	king who rewards goodness and punishes evil.
	Therefore, we know that when he decides the fate of the world,
	he judges our past actions. 

  - a day on which the gates of heaven are open to those who repent

	But he is a merciful judge, and provides us with opportunity to turn to
	him, to repent of our sins. The month before Rosh Hashana plus
	the ten days between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (lit. the Day of
	Atonement) are considered to be a time when God is especially
	receptive to penitents, is especially accessible to whoever
	seeks him, and is eager to forgive sins.

The shofar (ram's horn) is blown.  The other use of the shofar mentioned
in the O.T. is to call men to battle, and it 'is heard' when God presents
himself to the gathered assembly of Israel.  It's sound is meant to inspire
awe at God's presence, fear of his justice (and therefore to awaken repentance)
and a reminder of our duties to/contract with God ("for you are our
King and we are your subjects, you are our Father and we are your children,
you are our Sheperd and we are your flock, etc." free trans. from the liturgy.)

Rosh Hashana, therefore, is an especially "theological" holiday, unlike
other Jewish holidays which all have theological significance, but also
very often have obvious cultural/social significance 
(e.g., harvest festival, anniversary of
freedom, I would argue also the day of atonement). On Rosh Hashana we
are asked to accept these theological propositions about the nature of
God: that he is master of the universe, that he 'owns' evil as well
as good (=not Manichean), that there is no other God but him,
that he rewards good and punishes evil (=not
gnostic), that he is merciful. And others, I'm no expert.

On the social/cultural side, it !is! the birthday of the world, so altho
it's not treated as a frivolous occasion, it is an occasion for celebration,
it is a real holiday (in the colloq. sense of the word, as opposed to Holy-day).
It's the start of a new year, and a new chance to do what's right.  The
Rosh Hashana liturgy (and therefore, the length of Services) is fairly long,
but there is also time for festive family meals.  Some of the traditional
foods are:  honey, carrots  ==> we ask for a sweet year
	    pomegranates    ==> a fruitful, productive year (the pomegranate
	   			is a fertility symbol, I think because of the
				large number of seeds
	    fish heads (not everybody shares this custom, at least anymore)
			    ==> so that we may be like the head, and not 
				the tail, i.e., not be persecuted, or in want.
	    		    ==> also, fish being regarded as 'brain-food',
	   			so that we may be granted wisdom, or,2nd best,
				intelligence.
	    round challot   ==> challot are loaves of egg-bread, usually
				loaf-shaped [rectangular].  During this period
				they are baked round; like a circle which
				has no end, we ask that our lives not end
				in the coming year.
and there is a custom to avoid sour foods.  
				
May you-all be inscribed for a good year.

Kathy

Re 7.0

I've been with DEC for 10 years and have never worked on Rosh Hashana or
Yom Kippour. From an internal document named "YOU AND DIGITAL" valid in
Switzerland I am extracting the following sentence :

"Members of religious groups whose official religious feast days do not
coincide with Company's official holidays are allowed to attend religious
services."

Re 7.1

Before joining DEC I worked in four other company here in Switzerland and
I never got the problem of taking these days off. This has always been one
of my first request before signing for a job.

Shanna Tova

Gerard

It should be noted that in Massachusetts at least, it's a state law
that employees must be granted off-time for religious holidays, unless
their taking off would be a particular hardship to the business.  That
may not mean time off with pay, but they can't deny you the day.  I don't
know how many other states have the same law.

I once worked at a company which was wholly owned by Jewish people.  The
place was open for business on the Jewish holy days, as most businesses were,
but all Jewish employees were REQUIRED to take the days off, with pay, of
course.  Any Jewish employee who showed up for work on a Jewish holiday was
FIRED.  

Dave C.

Seems there is alot of controversy starting here about taking
the holidays off.  I see it as a pnembral situation:

	On the one hand, we can't work.
	So, should we get payed for the day ?

	Well, if we get the holidays off, then, I was told,
	every other religion should  get the same consideration.
	My answer was, sure, they should, why should it be
	just for the Gentile holidays that EVERYONE has off.
	
	If someone has a copy of the regulations from the
	personel handbook, could you enter it please.
	Are there any managers/supervisors reading this file ?

	Mike

I fail to see what's wrong with having eight days for Pesach (sp?) and Succot
(or is it 7?). Just consider "the TWELVE days of Christmas"!

I ought to say up front that I'm a Christian. My collegues include a couple
readers of this file. From the outside looking in, it doesn't bother me if
they want a couple days off for the holidays; I guess this is partly because
I happen to know that they're planning to be in shul, and not, say, at the
beach. (Besides, I can understand preparing for the Day of Atonement by
driving 4 to 6 hours.... :-) )

The Christians don't really have many times during the week when they might
prefer services and prayer to work. There's Christmas (which has been pretty
well ripped off by the secularists -- C.S. Lewis had a marvelous description,
masquerading as 'a lost work of Herodotus'), and Good Friday, and that's
really about it. For Catholics, there are several days (e.g., this Thursday)
that we're expected to attend Mass; but nobody is expected to "make a whole
day" of it.

An Anglican theologian commented that his daughter had a Jewish friend, and
that when she was out with that family and they stopped somewhere for tea,
she would ask of something on the menu "Can I eat this?" Dietary laws and
holy days set you apart from the masses, more so than for us (I remember
the relaxation of the old laws of abstaining from meat on Fridays -- BTW,
the Orthodox Churches still do). It's a whole lot easier to distinugish a
practicing Jew from the secularists, than to distinguish a practicing Catholic
or main-line Protestant from them (let's leave out the extremists).

One last question before closing this ramble: I heard somewhere that there's
a slight difference between the Catholic confessing his sins, and the Jew
asking forgiveness on the Day of Atonement. The difference was supposed to
be that the Catholic was asking forgiveness for what he'd done, and the Jew
asking forgiveness for what sins were in the future. Is this accurate?

Dick

    Wow!  I'm ASTOUNDED that anyone would even ASK to take the holidays
    off without using vacation time!  Every year, I take five non-vacation
    days (two first days of Pesach, two days of Rosh Hashanah, and Yom
    Kippur) as vacation days, which I spend in shul.  I always figured,
    that's the price you pay!  Maybe this spring I will see if I can
    do better.  I've always kind of resented that, because it would
    be nice to have more vacation time to vacation in, though it doesn't
    matter so much anymore now that I've been here ten years, and get
    a lot of time (though my husband only gets three weeks now, of which
    one week is instantly blown on holidays).

    For the record -- 
    
    "Kiddush" is a sanctification ceremony focusing on wine, or the
    (often elaborate) food served with it.
    
    "Kaddish" is a prayer said in memory of the dead and during public
    prayer services ("Yitgadal etc.").
    
    It would not be appropriate to "serve a kaddish."  Unfortunately,
    the two words are virtually identical in Hebrew.

    I have always taken the holidays (all 13 days of them) each year
    without pay.  I'm lucky to be able to afford to do that.
    
    My philosophy is that we're given a certain amount of vacation time by
    company policy, and it's up to each of us to determine how best to use
    it.
    
    And now, a story...
    
    The organization I work for does corporate support, and occasionally
    deals with angry customers who demand on-site visits or else they'll
    "throw DEC out of their computer room."  One such customer in the UK
    demanded an onsite visit right in the middle of the High Holidays. 
    
    I left here the day after Yom Kippur (Thursday) with the agreement
    (both with the customer and my manager) that I would not be working
    on Shabbat nor on Sukkot.  P.S. -- I met some very nice people at
    a Etz Chaim synagogue in Leeds.  The invited me into their homes
    for yontiff, and provided me with all my holiday meals.  They would
    even have given me a bed to sleep in, had I needed it!  (If you're
    going to Leeds and need a few names, let me know.)
    
    Dave