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Conference tallis::celt

Title:Celt Notefile
Moderator:TALLIS::DARCY
Created:Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1632
Total number of notes:20523

1622.0. "A double standard?" by NETRIX::"Bill Burke @MROmro.dec.com" (Bill Burke ) Wed Jan 22 1997 09:18

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1622.1An Evil StandardNETRIX::"Bill Burke @MRO.mro.dec.com"Bill BurkeThu Feb 13 1997 10:3115
From VNS News 2/13/97:

"A SOLDIER was shot dead and a woman civilian was injured when an Army
 checkpoint in Northern Ireland came under fire from an IRA sniper last
night."

How sad.  I sit here trying to picture this scenario, wondering what's going
through the sniper's mind as he/she lays waiting and pulls the trigger, what 
the IRA leaders in their heart believe they're accomplishing with this
violence.
I can't grasp any justification for such an act. 

My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
  
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
1622.2Tory unity is more important than peaceMKTCRV::KMANNERINGSThu Feb 13 1997 11:5916
    Bill,
    
    I'm afraid the IRA leadership have given up on the peace process and
    have no trust in John Major. The forces which always wanted to
    destabilise the peace process have won out. Now they are up to their
    usual hate producing tricks. Why in heavens name is Roisin McAliskey
    being treated as she is, with frequent strip searches  and the
    appalling threat that her baby will be taken from her after birth? She
    is on remand pending extradition and should enjoy the presumption of
    innocence. 
    
    There is still a strong desire for peace, but I am afraid we can expect
    atrocities in the coming weeks.
    
    ..Kevin..
             
1622.3Eamon WrightNETRIX::"[email protected]"Mark HolohanTue Feb 18 1997 12:3416
> "A SOLDIER was shot dead"

  That seems to happen to soldiers.  I think it's one of those side
  effects of a thing called war.

> How sad.  I sit here trying to picture this scenario, wondering what's going
> through the sniper's mind as he/she lays waiting and pulls the trigger,

  Ballistic coefficient, effects of altitude and humidy on drag,
  conceiling the muzzle flash, and wind effects (this is the biggy).


                          Mark
  
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
1622.4Here we go again....NEMAIL::HANLYTue Feb 18 1997 13:177
    Mark,
    
    I don't know how many people still have the energy to attempt to
    conduct a dialogue with you, but your comments and cavalier attitude
    displayed in the previous note are inhumane.
    
    Ken Hanly
1622.5I'm losing it!NNTPD::"Bill Burke @MRO.dec.com"Bill BurkeThu May 29 1997 02:0756
I believe Mark and my mother are from the same mold...and I can relate, but
not fully grasp or understand. 

Today, my mother is in a nursing home, age 83.  If I put a flame-thrower in
her hand, told her that the Queen of England was going to walk into her room
and , if she pulled the trigger, she would burn in hell forever - I guarantee
that she would pull the trigger! To her, it would be worth it.  I was brought
up with this headset.

My mother was in Ireland between 1914 and 1930.  Then, she came to America.
She had all the stories about the Black and Tans - killing, raping, shootings,
beatings, etc.  As I grew up, I understood how the English could be hated for
their atrocities. I understood how terrorism won out to win what today is
known as Ireland.  I have had empathy for the IRA over the years.  I loathe
John Major for ignoring the IRA cease fire.  I have been receptive to donating
to the IRA to help win back all of Ireland (but haven't been informed about
how to do it).

The arguments in this file about Ireland being analygous to the U.S. and
Canada (all part of the same island/continent) are bullshit. I believe Ireland
should be whole.  But, that is my programming.

It's crazy, but I can understand  (not be overly offended by) the approach of
the terrorist activities of blowing up public places - (with advanced
notification of the event (which minimizes the impact on innocent victims) -
but, somehow, I haven't been able to grasp the action of blowing away an
innocent soldier via sniping.  It's like the story my mother told me.  She was
from Bansha, Tipperary.   One Sunday morning, in the 1920's, the British
soldiers waited outside the church and shot dead the men in the village who
walked outside of the church after mass was over.  Sometime later, a British
soldier fell in love with one of the lassies in the village.  In an attempt to
show good faith, he went to mass with her one Sunday morning. When he walked
out of the church, he was shot dead.  I always wrestled with that event.  Was
it justice?  Was it really "an eye for an eye" or just another irrational act
of violence with no relationship to achieving a cause?

As I can't relate to the killing of the British soldier who was killed walking
out of the church with his Irish lassie, I can't relate to the sniping/killing
of the British soldier mentioned earlier in this note.  Somehow, both were
very innocent, and justice, or a cause, simply were not served.  But, I
believe Mark can relate, and support the event, and so could my mother.

I don't pretend to be the typical Irish-American.  I may be; I may not be; I
honestly don't know what's "typical".  I only know that I've been programmed
to believe that Ireland should be "whole", which means that it should
encompass Northern Ireland.  But, it's 1997, not 1922.  As Scotland may
achieve independence through negotiation, perhaps Northern Ireland will be
re-united over time with the rest of Ireland through a peaceful negotiation. 
Killing a soldier on the steps of a church in 1922 didn't make a difference -
and neither will sniping a Britsh soldier in 1997.

To those of you that don't appreciate my candid comments - tough shit.  I
prefer to be candid about my headset/programming, rather than "politically
correct" about the approach of terrorism as a means to an end.
  
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
1622.6After thoughts of the sniperBIS1::GOULDENMon Jun 02 1997 05:218
After thoughts of the sniper

A sleepless night?

A pang of conscience?

A lifetime to carry the deed....

1622.7Thoughts of the onlookerBIS1::GOULDENMon Jun 02 1997 10:219
    
    Thoughts of the onlooker
    
    Who payed the piper?
    
    A pang of conscience?
    
    Was it I .....
    
1622.8A cycle of violence treads a terrible pathBIS1::GOULDENMon Jun 02 1997 10:2635
    Note: 1622.3
    
    Puts the thoughts of the sniper as a clinical `scientific' way, apart
    from not giving the sniper any emotions fear etc, the other basic component
    conscienc is missing.
    
    Note: 1622.6
    
    Expresses the sniper conscience as revealed after the event.
    
    Note: 1622.7
    
    Expresses from the onlookers point of view. We are all `touched' by
    this act.
    
    It causes us to examine ourselves.
    
    Note: 1622.5
    
    Expresses it from his mothers point of view. She too has been touched
    by an act
    "Then, she came to America. She had all the stories about the Black and
    Tans - killing, raping, shootings, beatings, etc.  As I grew up, I 
    understood how the English could be hated"
    
    His mother expresses "hate".... bitterness,anger?
    
    But the noter in 1622.5 expresses "I can't relate..."
    
    The trouble is we do relate, we relate to it all, but we also known
    what troubles us.
    
    We known a cycle of violence treads a terrible path.