Conference tallis::celt

>     It took the RUC, whose Mountpottinger Road Barracks is less than a
>     minute away, almost 20 minutes to respond. While at the scene the
>     RUC showed a callous disregard for both Peter and his mother
>     Nancy; they told her he only suffered superficial wounds and
>     wouldn't bring her to the hospital or get her a taxi.

  Now there's a British paramilitary police force you can trust.

>     Speaking to AP/RN, on Tuesday, 11 June, hours after receiving the
>     news that her brother had been taken off the life-support machine

  Fancy that, the RUC said it was only superficial.  

                       Mark  

Mark,

I could ask whether there is independent evidence to support the claims made
in this article.

I could ask why you have chosen to print this rather than say anything about
the equally revolting punishment beatings carried out by the IRA

I could even ask why you have chosen to go on about this rather than tell us
why my dancer penpal was injured by a bomb planted by people you appear to 
support.  And while at it, ask about the other over 200 people who were 
injured in the same inhuman attack.

But I shan't - I'll let your own choice of subject matter speak for itself.

//alan

From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: 
clari.world.gov.politics,clari.news.conflict.misc,clari.world.europe.british_isles.uk,clari.world.europe.british_isles.uk.n-ireland,clari.news.conflict,clari.world.europe,clari.world.europe.british_isles
Subject: Masked gang 'crucifies' Belfast man
Keywords: international, US government, non-usa government, legal, violent crime, politics,
political extremists, fighting
Organization: Copyright 1996 by United Press International
Message-ID: 
Lines: 26
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:00:34 PST
Location: Great Britain, Ulster
ACategory: international
Slugword: ulster-violence
Threadword: ulster
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 246/0; Id: a7450; Src: up; Sel: nl--a; Adate: 3-27-N.A; Ver: 0/1
Approved: [email protected]
Xref: news.clark.net clari.world.gov.politics:2885 clari.news.conflict.misc:4500
clari.world.europe.british_isles.uk.n-ireland:340 clari.news.conflict:27688 clari.world.europe:995
clari.world.europe.british_isles:2757



    BELFAST, Northern Ireland, March 27 (UPI) -- An IRA punishment squad
    ``crucified'' a Belfast man by tying him to a fence and driving metal
    spikes through his arms and legs, the Royal Ulster Constabulary said
    Wednesday. 

    The attack took place in broad daylight in the largely nationalist Turf
    Lodge district in west Belfast.

    After abducting the victim, a gang of masked men gagged him, handcuffed
    his wrists behind his back and tied him to a garden fence before
    driving spikes through his knees and elbows, police said.

    ``I have never seen anything like it. He was crucified,'' said a woman
    who helped treat the 18-year-old victim. ``Who could do anything like
    that?'' 

    Constabulary Superintendent Ian Williamson described the incident as
    ``an absolutely horrendous assault.''

    He blamed the IRA for the attack and more than 30 other in west Belfast
    over the past year. Hours earlier a man had his hands smashed with
    hammers in a similar attack in Strabane, 80 miles west of Belfast. 

    Before its cease-fire in August 1994 the IRA ``policed'' nationalist
    areas of Northern Ireland by ``knee-capping'' people accused of
    misconduct, shooting them in the knees and elbows. 

    But after the declaration of the cease-fire, which ended with a bombing
    Feb. 9 in London, the punishment squads switched a variety of weapons,
    including sledge hammers, iron bars and concrete blocks, used to smash
    the victims' limbs. 


    -- For our announcement about news from UPI and AP, see our posting in
    clari.net.announce, or see our web page (http://www.clari.net).  Return
    to my Page

    And Mark used to defend the fact that the IRA had to police their own
    communities because the RUC wouldn't.....
    
    The Sinn Fein/IRA, now there's a nice paramilitary police force...NOT!
    
    Shaun.

    Can anybody find that story in an independant source?
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Don't be silly Charley!
    
    Laurie.

    I wonder why.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Alan,

>I could even ask why you have chosen to go on about this rather than tell us
>why my dancer penpal was injured by a bomb planted 

  Alan, I have plenty of family living in London.  I don't want to see
  any of them hurt in this war either.  

  I entered this note, so you can see the viciousness of the Loyalist that
  your Government supports.  Are these the people you really want to
  remain part of Britain?  Would you want these folks living in your
  community?  Have you seen these nuts in their bowler hats, with Irish
  accents, thinking they are more British than the Queen herself?  Did you
  listen to Paisley's diatribe about American George Mitchell?  These are
  the folks John Major and the Tory's have allied themselves with.


                       Mark
  
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

            An Phoblacht/Republican News � Thursday 13 June 1996

                       [An Phoblacht/Republican News]

                  RUC collude with loyalists in mob attack

     BY LAURA FRIEL

     THE RUC ATTACKED and abused Catholic residents during a loyalist
     mob attack on a nationalist enclave in North Belfast. ``Get off
     the streets you Fenian bastards'' shouted one RUC officer among
     the ranks of baton-wielding, riot-clad, members of the Divisional
     Mobile Support Unit (DMSU.)

     The RUC arrived at the scene as a loyalist mob attacked
     nationalist homes with bricks and bottles in the Alexander Park
     area. Alexander Park consists of three main streets in a tiny
     nationalist enclave on the edge of the loyalist Tiger's Bay. The
     vast majority of residents are young women, lone parents and their
     children. The area has been the focus of repeated sectarian
     attacks by loyalists over a number of years, particularly during
     the Orange marching season.

     In the early hours of Sunday, 9 June, a mob attacked the homes,
     throwing bricks and bottles, and breaking windows. Earlier, the
     residents had been taunted by a group of men drinking on the
     streets in the loyalist area on Saturday afternoon. A residents `
     spokesperson pointed out to the RUC a number of men who had
     attacked their homes but the RUC made no attempt to arrest any of
     them. Instead the RUC turned their backs on the loyalist mob and
     attacked nationalist residents as they tried to defend their
     homes.

     The RUC confronted residents, beating them with batons and
     ordering them to clear the streets. One young woman, who remains
     in hospital, sustained serious head injures after being batoned by
     the RUC. She was also repeatedly kicked by the RUC as she lay on
     the ground. Her husband who attempted to protect her, was also
     batoned.

     In another sinister incident, a silver Ford Sierra, which had been
     driving up and down the area all night, pulled up and one of the
     occupants shone a torch into the face of a resident. ``Fenian
     bastard'', he shouted, ``bang, bang...we're coming back to shoot
     you all.'' A mother of six was also forced to flee from her
     Mountcollyer Street home after a gang of loyalists told her they
     were coming back to burn her out.

     Commenting on the attacks, Sinn F�in's Gerry Kelly said there was
     clear evidence that loyalists in North and East Belfast were
     involved in a well-organised series of sectarian attacks. Kelly
     said one of Sinn F�in's recently elected representatives had
     received a number of threatening phone calls from a person
     representing the UVF. ``At this sensitive time I would call on
     nationalists to be particularly vigilant.''

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Contents Page for this Issue
     ------------------------------------------------------------------
                   Reply to: An Phoblacht/Republican News

    RE:       <<< Note 1589.8 by NETRIX::"[email protected]" "Mark Holohan" >>>

>>  I entered this note, so you can see the viciousness of the Loyalist that
>>  your Government supports.  Are these the people you really want to
>>  remain part of Britain?  Would you want these folks living in your
>>  community?  
    
    I entered an earlier note in this stream so you can see the viciousness
    of the Sinn Fein death squads you [appear to] support. Are these the
    people you really want to remain part of Ireland? Would you want these
    folks living in your community?
    
    There's a major difference between my note and yours. Mine came from
    Clarinet news, a respected and independent news agency. Yours is
    uncorroborated emotional claptrap from a terrorist organisation's
    propaganda rag. When you get it independently verified we might pay
    some attention to it. In the meantime, you should bear in mind PP&P
    6.54 and stop promoting your ideology on Company property, systems and
    networks.
    
    Get a life.
    
    Laurie.

re .9

>  I entered this note, so you can see the viciousness of the Loyalist that
>  your Government supports.  Are these the people you really want to
>  remain part of Britain?  Would you want these folks living in your
>  community?  Have you seen these nuts in their bowler hats, with Irish
>  accents, thinking they are more British than the Queen herself?  

Mark,

   every community has extremists as a part of it. I don't judge the 
community on the basis of them. From my experience in visiting Northern 
Ireland I've found the people there to be pleasant and open, possibly slightly 
more so than in some other parts of the U.K. If the majority of these people 
wish to remain a part of the U.K. then they should do so. On the other hand if 
a majority should express a wish to leave the U.K. this should also happen. I 
guess that this is where we differ.

                        
 

    I think you hit the nail on the head there (Mr Cheethamd ?), the
    difference being that one believes in democracy and the other has total
    disregard for law, order, society and fellow human beings - such a
    person could be considered as a social misfit.
    
    Shaun.

    .9
    
    Can anybody find that story in an independant source?
        
        
    CHARLEY

Re 1589.11         

> If the majority of these people 
> wish to remain a part of the U.K. then they should do so. On the other hand
> if a majority should express a wish to leave the U.K. this should also
> happen. I guess that this is where we differ.
                        
I totally agree with you. The trouble is that the NI problem is not as 
simple as that. You see, in the past when it was suspected by the British
Government that a majority of the population of NI may want to leave 
UKOGBANI (based solely on the fact that they were catholic) then they changed
the border to exclude some predominantly catholic areas to ensure a unionist
majority. This has happened on several occasions.

When was the last time the border changed?

Dave

1645 AD ??? Just before the potato famine.

    Re .15
    
    I don't have that information to hand but some of the noters in here
    who know more about Irish history than I do may be able to supply the
    answer quicker than I could look it up.
    
    Re .16
    
    The partition was only set up early this century (1926 ?) so moving it
    during the potato famine (which was 1845-1849, NOT 1645) would have
    been pretty difficult.

    Simon,
    
    Is that last note supposed to be funny? I don't get it.
    
    Mike
    
    

>                   -< Is the date of the last one relevant? >-


I was wondering if you could substantiate your allegation.  
Seems like you can't.

Dave

    The Government of Ireland Act (1920) set up the partition.

>    The Government of Ireland Act (1920) set up the partition.

I'm aware of that, but your allegations concern NI thus can only cover the 
period since it first started to exist.

Dave

    Eddie,
    
    	I would agree that the present border was set up to ensure a
    Unionist majority in N.I. I don't believe that 1n 199x we can
    completely understand the motives for the partition. I know that the
    historical record exists and have actually read some of it, what I'm
    trying to get at is that the "mind set" of the participants in those
    events would be alien to us now, which is just a long way of saying
    that the past is a different country.
        And what all the ramblings in the last paragraph are leading up to
    is that the present inhabitants of N.I. are exactly that, i.e. they
    live in the present situation. I don't believe that it is helpful to
    say that wrong, by our present standards, decisions were made nn years
    ago, now let us force some more decisions, which are wrong by present
    standards, upon the people affected.
    
                          Dennis (Mr Cheethamd) 

Re .22

Dennis,

You have made a very good point. It would be wrong to force a decision on 
the current inhabitants of NI and I totally agree with the concept of 
majority rule. The $64,000 is "where do you draw the lines to seek the 
majority you desire?" The Irish Nationalists believe that the majority
of the Island of Ireland should be the one which decides on matters of
Unity with UKOGBANI and the Unionists believe it is their little corner
(20% of the popluation of the Island) which should decide this. I'm sure
every noter in this conference realises that this is the crux of the NI
problem.

Suppose there was one town on the NI side of the border in which the 
majority of the people believed they should be part of the republic.
Should that town be allowed to leave UKOGBANI and join the republic? Would
the remaining residents of NI be happy with this scenario?

Suppose that in the above scenario it was not a town but an entire county
which wanted to leave. Do you think that the remaining residents would stil
be happy ? - I don't think they would like this idea one bit. I think the
residents of the whole of NI would want to vote on whether to let one town
join the republic and it is the same idea on a larger scale - that of the
whole island - that they so vehemently oppose.
    

    .23
    
    >who decides...?
    
    The people of the internationally recognised country of Northerh
    Ireland.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Eddie,
    
       I appreciate the validity of the points that you have raised. I
    guess that my response is that the status quo has some value and a good
    reason must be found for changing it, hence I feel that the present
    border has some legitimacy and that the inhabitants of the Republic
    should not be in a position to force the inhabitants of NI to join the
    Republic, although they should probably have a veto on them joining if
    this was requested. 
        
        The problems of towns and counties is more difficult. I guess my 
    feeling is that if a given political entity, be it town or county, 
    can demonstrate that a majority (simple majority or some weighted number,
    not sure) wishes to leave the U.K. and join the Republic, and if this
    is physically possible, i.e. shares a border with the Republic, this 
    should be considered. I don't believe that making any body of people 
    members of some structure or keeping them as members of such a structure 
    against their collective will can be justified or successful 
    
                                  Dennis

    I see your point Eddie. I have to admit that I look forward to the day
    that the peoples of Ireland as a whole can unite and thus the Island of
    Ireland is unified. To take your example, i would be sympathetic towards
    a counties claim for unification but then NI would then consist of only
    five counties..or even four counties..etc. Given that the majority of
    each secseeding (sp?) country would be Nationalist, the Unionist
    majority in the remaining counties would therefore dramaticaly increase -
    perhapps even to a point where any hope of further unification is
    postponed for another god knows how long.
    
    For this reason, I can't see how chipping at the boundaries of NI will
    aid the goal of toal unification.
    
    Shaun.