Conference tallis::celt

    
                                                                  
    EDITORIALS - Monday, June 17, 1996 
    
    Savagery and Lies 
    
    That the bombing in the centre of Manchester's shopping
    district took no lives is perhaps the only scrap of comfort in a
    black day's work by the Provisionals. There is no credit to the
    bombers in that. Rather does it go to the men and women of
    the Manchester police, rescue and medical services who
    worked heroically, first to evacuate the area as the bomb
    ticked to detonation and then in the aftermath, among scenes of
    horrific devastation.
    
    This abhorrent act has mutilated, injured and traumatised
    hundreds of innocent people. It has also annihilated any
    lingering hope that perhaps, behind the posturing, the
    Provisionals had put in place a defacto ceasefire. Taken
    together with the belated admission from the IRA that its
    members murdered Det Garda Jerry McCabe at Adare, this
    latest outrage confirms that the prospects for Sinn Fein's early
    participation are remote indeed. Their paramilitary comrades
    have gone so far beyond the pale of civilised behaviour that
    even a renewed declaration of a ceasefire would now be of
    dubious value.
    
    What this means for the leadership of Mr Gerry Adams is yet
    to be determined. A fortnight ago, buoyed up by a strong
    electoral performance, Mr Adams's desire to be at the
    negotiating table appeared likely to turn the tide in favour of a
    new ceasefire. But the murder at Adare and Saturday's atrocity
    in Manchester must cast the most grave doubts over the
    effectiveness of his authority within the so-called republican
    "family". Perhaps the Sinn Fein/IRA axis failed to appreciate
    that its electoral success represented a high water mark for its
    political influence. But it can hardly doubt the depths of
    revulsion which have been excited by the violence, the lies and
    the duplicity since then.
    
    It may also be that in years to come, the historians will identify
    the days of June 1996 as the time when Sinn Fein/IRA finally
    created between themselves and the many others who are
    endeavouring to shape a new settlement, a divide which would
    remain unbridgeable for many years. There is only a certain
    distance that society can go to accommodate a small minority
    which believes it can resort to violence to have its way. And
    there is only a certain extent to which people will suspend their
    critical faculties. Do the leaders of the IRA expect us to believe
    that the gunmen of Adare would have been disowned had they
    succeeded in diverting a quarter of a million pounds into their
    coffers - as in previous robberies - and if the incident had not
    ended in death and injury for two gardai? 
    
    There are glimmers of optimism, notwithstanding the
    unwillingness of Sinn Fein/IRA at this time to put an end to the
    savagery of bullet and bomb. The talks process, for all its
    procedural chaos, has begun. Those who are participating
    know that if they fail, if negotiations collapse, the initiative
    reverts to the paramilitaries. The goal of a new, negotiated
    settlement, endorsed by the great majority of the people who
    live on this island, remains an attainable one. The Tan�iste, Mr
    Spring, has said firmly that the process of negotiation must
    continue and will not be blown off course. And it was surely
    heartening to hear Mr David Trimble affirm his conviction, in
    the wake of the Manchester attack, that the underlying impetus
    of events is towards peace and not towards another 25 years
    of violence. 
    
    The slim hope also exists that the Manchester outrage may
    represent not a renewal of such attacks but perhaps a last fling
    for the bombers before a renewal of the ceasefire. It has been
    common knowledge that IRA bombing units have been in place
    in Britain for months past, waiting for a suitable moment and
    opportunity to strike. Analysts for both governments are
    unwilling to rule out the possibility that we may be at the end of
    a period of violence rather than the beginning. It is a time to
    hope for the best but to anticipate the worst.
    
    
                                 � Copyright: The Irish Times
                               Contact: [email protected] 
    
    

    On a personal note, I would add two to the list of casualties
    in last Saturday's outrage -- the IRA and Sinn Fein.
    
    And the injuries sustained?
    
    Feet.. loss of.. due to gunshot wounds.
    
    It is clear to me that Gerry Adams has lost the ear of the IRA's
    controllers. Gerry Adams is one of yesterdays's men.
    
    I remember the split in the ranks of the then reformed IRA in the early
    '70s. Official and Provisional.. the Stickies and the Provies emerged
    after some brutal gun fights in the streets of Belfast. Later, the INLA
    emerged from the putrid belly of the Provies.
    
    My guess is that now the IRA is showing signs of another split. Witness
    their most recent statement about the lack of "official sanction" for
    the so-called operation in the South of Ireland where one policeman
    was murdered. Something similar happened in my home town (Newry) about
    three months or so into the 17-month ceasefire. Then, there was no
    official sanction for an armed raid on the main Post Office. One
    postman was murdered, though of course, an official statement contained
    an apology to the family of the dead man. Some of the local volunteers
    had been running short of money... Christmas coming up and you know
    what it's like when you have kids.. eh? They're never satisfied with
    what they've got.
    
    One piece of information in the Manchester bombing episode disturbs me
    more than the rest of the disgusting saga, and that is the announcement
    by Loyalist paramilitaries that they are now ready to go on the
    offensive themselves. A purely protective gesture, you understand.
    Noblesse oblige.. etcetera. The whole thing smacks of hands rubbing
    together in glee at the prospect of a return to business as usual. The
    forces -- on both sides -- against a real and lasting peaceful settlement 
    have won the game, on points this time, I think.
    
    I hope I'm wrong.
    
    John 

    The Official IRA were known as 'Stickies' and the Provisional IRA as
    'Pinies'. Stickies stuck their IRA member badges on with chewing gum
    whereas the Provo's pined theirs on.
    
    Shaun@trivia

    John,
    
    I have to agree.
    
    I'm stricken by the irony of the whole thing.  For years the Loyalists
    have been saying don't talk because you can't trust the other side. For
    years, the US administrations have gone along with this line of
    reasoning until Clinton.  He trusts SF and invites Adams to the US. The
    result is alot of euphoria last year before Christmas and nothing else.
    
    Now, I'm not only blaming SF and the IRA.  Clearly Major is the one, in
    my mind, who fumbled this opportunity badly and played into the hands
    of those on both sides want the status quo.  
    
    But if the only goal of the Loyalists in these talks was to decommission
    the IRA, they've succeeded, or rather been handed success by the IRA,
    because I don't see any other recourse for either government but to
    come down hard on the IRA.
    
    This of course, will cause the Loyalists to wash their hands of any
    further talks and stumble back to their hardline, "Ulster Says No"
    positions of the past.
    
    I'm afraid this opportunity for a meaningful peace is gone.
    
    

    >Clearly Major is the one, in my mind, who fumbled this opportunity badly
    
    Sorry, but I disagree. IMO the only people who fumbled the opportunity
    were Sinn Fein/IRA - that is of course assuming they wanted the opportunity
    in the first place.
    
    
    CHARLEY

 Blimey are An Phlobacht/Republican News on strike?? Why haven't we heard 
 how this latest outrage was H.M.G's fault? Surely Adams' refusal 
 to condemn it , is just the work of the Loyalist spin doctors. When 
 in God's name are we going to get the truth?


 Stuart

  

    I think Mr 'Blind voice of Sinn Fein/IRA' is a little scared at the
    moment to comment....that or he's too busy telling tales like a little
    spoilt brat!
    
    Shaun.

    re: last two
    
    Why is it that you guys want so badly to hear from Mark? Don't you
    realize that all you will get is the same old story? I have seen
    countless entries to this conference critisizing his stance - and
    rightly so - so why can't you just let sleeping dogs lie as it were and
    stop trying to entice him to make statements that offend people.
    
    Gerry
    
    

    Mark who ?
    
    Shaun.

    Libya leader condemns civilian attack 
    
    By Martina Purdy 
    
    THE Libyan leader who helped to arm the IRA has condemned the
    Manchester bombing as an act which ``should not be
    supported.'' Col Muammar Gaddafi said if the IRA had carried out the
    attack, then it had set back the cause of Irish
    freedom. According to the official Jana news agency, Col Gaddafi said:
    ``Should it be confirmed that the IRA was behind the
    bombing which took place ... in Manchester, it would mean that the IRA
    deviated a great deal from liberating Ireland.'' The
    comments _ viewed by some observers as an attempt by Libya to have
    sanctions against it lifted _ were welcomed by the
    British embassy in Cairo. Last year, Libya answered a series of
    questions from Britain about its links with the IRA. The
    British government described this as a positive step towards complying
    with United Nations resolutions to renounce
    terrorism. Libya has been under a UN air embargo since 1992 for
    refusing to hand over two Libyans accused of the 1988
    Lockerbie bombing. ``The statement is very positive but it won't unlock
    the door to lifting sanctions,'' said one Western
    diplomat. Col Gaddafi marked the start of the IRA's ceasefire in
    September 1994 by reaffirming his support for what he
    called the IRA's ``just cause.'' ``When Britain fought us, we armed the
    IRA,'' he said. ``(But) we do not support attacks on
    civilians.'' 
    
    
    Copyright Belfast Telegraph 
    

    AP 19-Jun-1996 18:28 EDT   REF5637

    Copyright 1996. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

    IRA: We Did Manchester Bomb

    DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) -- The Irish Republican Army on Wednesday claimed
    responsibility for last week's bombing in Manchester,  England, that
    injured more than 200 people. 

    In a statement issued in Dublin, the IRA said it "sincerely regretted"
    injuries to civilians. 

    The truck bomb exploded Saturday at a shopping mall in the center of
    the northern England city while police were clearing the area following
    warnings delivered by phone. 

    The blast caused millions of dollars of damage and forced a closure of
    the city center. 

    Pray explain to me, someone, how people can plant 1.5 tons of high
    explosive in a shopping mall, set it off causing broken glass up to a
    mile away, and then express that they "sincerely regret" it when people
    get hurt. It's completely beyond me.
    
    Laurie.

UK: AI CONDEMNS SATURDAY'S IRA BOMBING

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From           [email protected]
Organization   ?
Date           19 Jun 1996 16:25:41 GMT
Newsgroups     misc.activism.progressive
Message-ID     <[email protected]>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This News Service is posted by the
International Secretariat of Amnesty International,
1 Easton Street, London WC1X 8DJ
(Tel +44-71-413-5500, Fax +44-71-956-1157)
Sender: [email protected]
Precedence: bulk
AMNESTY-L:
********************
                                                      News
Service 111/96
AI INDEX: EUR 45/09/96
17 JUNE 1996

UNITED KINGDOM: AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL CONDEMNS SATURDAY~S IRA
BOMBING

Amnesty International strongly condemns the bombing
attributed to the Irish Republican Army (IRA) on Saturday
morning, 15 June, in Manchester, United Kingdom, which
injured more than 200 people, mostly from flying glass.

      About ten people remained hospitalized after the first
day, including one woman who required 300 stitches on her
face during seven hours of surgery.

      The bomb exploded in Manchester~s city centre when many
thousands of people were in the shopping area. According to
press reports, the IRA gave coded warnings one hour and 35
minutes before the bomb exploded and the police began
evacuating the area one hour and 20 minutes before the bomb
exploded. To date, the IRA leadership has not claimed
responsibility nor issued a statement.

      This action follows a series of other explosions
claimed by the IRA since it broke the ceasefire on 9 February
1996, including the bombing in London Docklands which
resulted in two deaths and 100 injured civilians, and a
~premature explosion~ on a London bus on 18 February which
resulted in the death of an IRA man and eight injured people.

      These indiscriminate attacks on civilians have taken
place against a backdrop of other abuses.

      ~We are appalled by the level of human rights abuses
carried out by paramilitary groups based in Northern Ireland,
despite the declared cessation of military activities by
those groups in the autumn of 1994,~ Amnesty International
said.

      ~We are particularly concerned about the so-called
~punishment~ killings and beatings, which are actions taken
by paramilitary groups against members of their own
communities.~

      During 1995, according to police figures, six killings
were carried out by Republican armed groups and one killing
by Loyalist armed groups. Since the beginning of the year
there have been more killings:
      * Ian Lyons was shot dead on 1 January by a group which
      is believed to be linked to the IRA and calling itself
      Direct Action Against Drugs;
      * Tommy Shepperd was shot dead by Loyalists on 21
      March;
      * the killing of Gino Gallagher on 30 January sparked
      off a feud between two factions within the Irish
      National Liberation Army (INLA), resulting in four
      other deaths and others wounded.

      During 1995 there were at least 217 so-called
~punishment~ beatings: 141 by Republican armed groups and 76
by Loyalist armed groups. These beatings have continued
unabated this year.  On 21 January the Ulster Freedom
Fighters, a Loyalist group, beat a man and later apologized
claiming mistaken identity. Ervine Fleming was holding his
two-year-old daughter when a gang broke into his home and
attacked him with hammers and baseball bats in front of his
wife and children. He suffered serious head injuries and
bruising. On 27 March 18-year-old Martin Doherty was attacked
by a group of six or seven Republican men, who drove metal
spikes into his knees and arms; he sustained injuries to all
four limbs.

      In line with international standards, Amnesty
International opposes deliberate or indiscriminate attacks on
civilians. It urgently reiterates its appeal to all
paramilitary organizations to commit themselves to abide
fully by fundamental principles of international humanitarian
law, and in particular to cease all deliberate or
indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

ENDS\

**********

You may re-post this message onto other sources but if you do
then please tell us at [email protected] so that we can keep
track of what is happening to these items.

If you want more information concerning this item then please
contact the Amnesty International section office in your own
country. You may also send email to [email protected],
an automatic reply service.  A list of section contact
details is posted on the APC <ai.news> conference. If there
is not a section of Amnesty International in your country
then you should contact the International Secretariat in
London.END
**********

    Pray explain to me, how someone can "sincerely regret" people getting
    hurt with a bomb that was set off in a *shopping* mall on the morning of 
    the *busiest* shopping day of the week.
    
    I actually think they're disappointed that no-one died.
    
    
    CHARLEY

That lilne, about "sincerely" regretting, is just possibly the most
hypocritical statement i can remember from the IRA!

//atp

    Hey Holohan! Your favourite "human rights" organisation is condemning
    the bombing! Will you? NFC. Will Gerry Adams? NFC.
    
    I heard on R4 this morning that according to figures declared by SF to
    the US Gummint, under the terms of some Act or other, Sinn Fein has
    more than 80% less money to fund its death squads than it had before
    the Canary Wharf bomb; down from $1.7m to a little over $100K, not
    enough to cover office expenses. Good. HAHAHAHA!
    
    Laurie.

Don't worry Laurie, the murder supporting organisation 
NORAID will pay for more semtex and weapons. Mind you,
the reason why they are down on funds could be because 
they have already bought large quantities of semtex.

Simon

    I think it's because all of the *intelligent* Americans have finally
    realised what a barrel of shite the IRA are and that the money they
    donate goes on dope/weapons and not to the causes specified.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    I'm with Charley on this one. The Canary Wharf bomb was a real
    eye-opener for the people in the States who had been fed a diet of the
    kind of biased propaganda and crap Holohan posts in here. There was no
    justification for planting that bomb, and even less for the Manchester
    one.  That last one has left Gerry Adams extremely exposed, and even
    the bloody Libyans, fer God's sake, have condemned it. The IRA and Sinn
    Fein's death squads will be struggling for cash in the months to come,
    and a bloody good job too. Maybe that'll bring the murdering, cowardly
    scum to their senses.
    
    Laurie.

    I suspect the Libyan condemnation has more to do with their own
    interests than any real change of heart.
    
    Since November SF have raised 148,000 pounds in USA, 80,000 from one
    single donation. This is down from 1.2M pounds the previous 12 months.
    
    Andrew

    In my opinion, the IRA gets very little money from the US.  The last
    note would appear to back this up.  Most people over here are shocked
    by the horror of the north.  I have been in many Irish bars in Boston
    and all hours. Never once did I see a hat passed around.  Rebel songs
    abound, but so do songs about missing home, green fields, Irish
    mothers, sports etc.  I did meet a fellow here once who gave money.  He
    stopped in 1983 for three reasons:
    
    He realised that the IRA were terrorists more than patriots.
    
    He belived that they are communists, in league with the Libyans, etc.
    
    Just like his horses, he likes to back winners.  These guys weren't
    wining!  They are just sore losers.
    
    Most American people pray for peace and do not contribute in any way
    shape or form to the IRA.  Most working class people need the money
    themselves, anyway.  Obviously, in  a country of 260 million
    people, there are exceptions.  Please stop believing the myth that most
    Irish Americans are dumb enough and bloddy-mined enough to contribute
    to murder and mayhem.  They may want England out of the North and may
    miss some of the complexities of the situation, but they are not what
    many in the UK stereotype them to be.
    
    Regards, Ken Hanly 

re: .19

>    The Canary Wharf bomb was a real
>    eye-opener for the people in the States who had been fed a diet of the
>    kind of biased propaganda and crap Holohan posts in here. 

This reminds me of an article I read awhile back, written, I think
but I'm not entirely sure, by a British (probably English) journalist.
In the article he talked about the diet of biased propaganda and crap
about US Irish and their supposed 100% support of the IRA that was, 
at one time anyway, prevalent in the British press.  That made a lot 
of the remarks that have stemmed from folks in Britain easier for me 
to comprehend.  

Ken's right, I think.  The reality is that a very great number of Irish 
Americans are descendants of Scots Irish, that of those who are descendants 
of Catholic Irish, only a small percentage were (considering revent events,
I should hope there's now more of a basic awareness of the situtation) 
well aware of what's going on in Northern Ireland, and that it's a much 
smaller percentage that support the IRA.  

Now, I'm sure, Laurie, that you or Charley or someone else will come back 
and say, hey, *we* know what's going on; we look beyond the "propaganda
and crap".  Well, believe it or not (though you all apparently choose
not to), so do the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Peace,
Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    Laurie and CHARLEY have heard this before.  I and others have told them
    as much. This issue happens to be a "red flag" for me.
    
    Why do many of the UK noters choose to ignore this ?  Well, my guess is
    that this solves a very complex problem for them.  If it's only the
    Yanks and their money who, through "misty-eyed" ignorance keep the NI
    conflict alive, then they really don't have to deal with the problem,
    do they?  They only have to persuade us misguided Yanks to smarten up
    and spend our money more wisely.
    
    I saw the hat passed in the early seventies, but not since.  Even
    then, the folks who contributed were, far and away, the exceptions.
    
         

Is a contribution to Sinn Fein really a contribution to the IRA?

If not, what does Sinn Fein do with the money? What justifies a contribution to
Sinn Fein?

I've never been exposed to Sinn Fein's efforts to get contributions in the U.S.

How does one make a contribution to Sinn Fein?
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    I'm glad there are other noters who agree. Most of the money
    that the IRA raises comes from legitimate and illegitimate
    businesses in Northern Ireland UK.  Some smaller monies comes
    from the Republic, some from London and its environs, and some
    from the US.
    
    At the recent Stonehill Irish Festival in Easton Mass (which
    was frequented by many thousands of people) there were no
    political booths, no hats going around, no military organizations
    represented. There were Irish language plays. There were set
    dancing and step dancing. And there probably were a few rebel
    songs played by Irish entertainers. But just because people are
    interested in "traditional" Irish customs does not mean they
    support terrorism. There were several booths from Northern Ireland
    at the event too.
    
    The only "misty-eyed" ones are those stubborn people that continue
    using violence as a vehicle for power, and those that refuse to engage
    in peace talks without preconditions.

I doubt if there is anyone in here naive enough to believe that if money
from America dried up overnight, 'the Irish problem' would suddenly disappear.

But let me ask a question:  how would Americans feel if it were found that
the Oklahoma bombing had been partly financed by contributions, however small,
from (perhaps well meaning) individuals from Britain?

Dave

    RE: .21
    
    You're not "confusing" SF and IRA are you? Holohan will be only too
    pleased to tell you they're different... Actually, $1.7m is a lot of
    cash, and it came from Americans. As it happens, I don't think any of
    we Brits think that SF's fund pays anything to the IRA, save perhaps
    some expenses for "political" visits to the US; peanuts really.
    
    However, you all seem to be conveniently forgetting NORAID, which has,
    over the years, contributed a huge amount of money, and most of it goes
    straight into bombs and guns. I don't think our impression that the US
    gives substantial sums, indirectly or otherwise, to the IRA is that
    far wrong.
    
    Laurie.

    re last few
    
        I can actually confirm (wrong word, corroborate??) the last few
    notes from personal (U.K. based) experience. On one of my trips to the
    U.S. in the mid eighties I was in the Boston on St Patrick's day/night
    and went out in the evening. I kept very quiet (English accent and all
    that) but it was noticeable that although the bars we visited were all
    celebrating Irishness in general there were no hats passing around. I
    got the impression then that donations to organisations associated with
    the N.I. troubles were a personal thing rather than a community thing.
    
                              Dennis

    .23
    
    >Why do many of the UK noters choose to ignore this ?
    
    We don't.
    
    
    CHARLEY

re: .21

Not that I think anyone can accurately predict what they would do
in a hypothetical situation -- best guess will have to do -- but,
if what's happening in Northern Ireland/Britain were happening over
here and it were found that the bombings had been partly financed by
contributions from a few individuals in Britain, I would feel that 
those individuals were misguided and probably a few more things I 
wouldn't care to say here.  No doubt I'd be scared shitless and angry 
and frustrated at the situation and probably lash out every now and 
then.  But I doubt I'd go around continually accusing Britain or 
the British people in general of collusion or what have you because 
(1) I've spent enough time over there and I like the place and the 
people, (2) it would not be true, and (3) I believe such accusations 
serve no purpose but to cause further discord.  I'd far rather spend 
the time and energy determining and addressing problems that are more 
immediate and closer to home -- like my own government's actions and 
efforts to resolve the problem.  


re: .27

Guess that "propaganda and crap" you've been fed worked on you
just about as well as you believe the "propaganda and crap" Mark
reads has worked on him.  You've spent a lot of time and energy
in here pushing the SF-IRA connection and now you want to separate
the two?  Goodness.  But, you know, for the purposes of my 
argument, it doesn't matter; let's even combine the two.  One last
time:  Though the money/aid that originates from the US might be 
substantial in terms of SF/IRA, the amount of aid and the number 
of people involved are but a drop in the bucket in terms of US 
resources and hardly indicative of the country or the people as 
a whole.

Peace,
Nancy

    >Guess that "propaganda and crap" you've been fed worked on you
    >just about as well as you believe the "propaganda and crap" Mark
    >reads has worked on him.
    
    The "propaganda and crap we've been fed on" comes from internationally
    recognised *independant* news sources.
    
   >You've spent a lot of time and energy in here pushing the SF-IRA 
   >connection and now you want to separate the two? 
    
    Read .27 again.
    
    >Though the money/aid that originates from the US might be 
    >substantial in terms of SF/IRA, the amount of aid and the number 
    >of people involved are but a drop in the bucket in terms of US 
    >resources and hardly indicative of the country or the people as 
    >a whole.
    
    No one said it was.
    
    
    CHARLEY

re: .31

>    No one said it was.

Could have fooled me (and I imagine a few others in here).  I'm
not about to go searching for any direct statements, but I would
say the implications have been many.  Stereotypes are dangerous
things; lot of folks don't take kindly to being lumped in with 
those they have very little in common with.  Especially when the
implications continue even after the protesting and but-I-didn't-
mean-that stages.  But perhaps it's just sloppy writing ...

Peace,
Nancy

    >I'm not about to go searching for any direct statements,
    
    Why's that then? I suggest you do if you wish to back up your accusations.
    
    > But perhaps it's just sloppy writing ...
    
    Now then, how shall I interpret that?  As an insult or an observation?
    What are you implying?
    
    
    
    CHARLEY

re: .33

>    >I'm not about to go searching for any direct statements,
    
>    Why's that then? I suggest you do if you wish to back up your accusations.

Well, you don't so why should I?  8-)  Frankly, I don't have the 
time or the inclination to go look through old notes -- I'm at 
Digital to work and I choose to do other things with what little 
free time I do have.  I've made the point I wished to make as 
well as I could; I'm not going to indulge in this seemingly useless
(at least to me) tit for tat some folks here seem to like so much.

>    > But perhaps it's just sloppy writing ...
    
>    Now then, how shall I interpret that?  As an insult or an observation?
>    What are you implying?

That apparently some folks don't make themselves clear -- and,
when that's pointed out to them, instead of learning or changing 
the way they phrase things, they continue on in the same way.
Call it an observation ...

Peace,
Nancy

>
>re: .21
>
>Not that I think anyone can accurately predict what they would do
>in a hypothetical situation -- best guess will have to do -- but,
>if what's happening in Northern Ireland/Britain were happening over
<here and it were found that the bombings had been partly financed by


Not such a hypothetical situation. In the 1830's the British Govt. sent
terrorists over to New York (upstate) to bomb and cut loose an 
American ship [the Caroline]. 

The locals were furious and were massing on the border in preparation
to go to Canada and respond in kind. A presidential aide was dispatched
and he managed to calm the situation down! That was very nearly the
start of a 3rd war between Britain and America!


M

    .34
    
    I'll take that as red that you can't back your accusations up then.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    re: .36
    
    See note .34, first paragraph, last sentence.

    Nancy,
    
    I agree with you.  It certainly was implied.
    
    The one thing I dislike more than sloppy writing is sloppy thinking.
    
    Mike
    
    

    Hey 
    
    it is getting really sloppy in here isn't it. If you are not careful
    the hurlers will start spitting. I will anyway if Offaly don't give it
    a leesh on Sunday.
    
    As to the arguments: (I'll try and keep this tight and precise)
    
    I would agree that the Americans here have been patronised by the true
    blues. They do not all fall for the SF propaganda. But I must say
    someone here once wrote that Mr Holohan is "highly intelligent" and I
    am still trying to get over that one.
    
    On the subject of democratic recognition of the UKOGBANI and partition:
    
    This has been debated before here. Partition came about through terror
    against the wishes of the majority. Michael Collins agreed to it,
    thinking there would be a boundary commission with referenda on a
    county by county basis. He also maintained his own terror units after
    signing. The Barmy has been using terror and/or thuggery in Ireland for
    800 years or so.  The Irish Free State showed in the civil war that it
    was prepared to use state terror to establish its authority. During the
    civil war prisoners were taken out and shot without trial. Not least,
    modern day terrorists can be found on the USS JFK, an aircraft carrier
    which dropped 3500 Canary Wharf size bombs on the people of Irak during
    the latest resource war, and which is to be feted around Ireland
    in the next few weeks. 
    
    Can these terrorists be stopped? Is it a tad unrealistic to call for
    the disbanding of the Barmy and the SAS? NO. It will take a
    revolutionary upheaval, similar to the storming of the Bastille or the
    Winter palace, the collapse of the Portugese empire, the fall of the
    hated STASI and Eric Honneker and his like, to mention some of the more
    significant upheavals.  These things do happen.
    
    Someone asked, I think it was Stuart, whether we should be thinking of
    more repression of the IRA, perhaps Internment etc? Well of course that
    is precisely wher the IRA campaign is leading. Individualist terror
    always leads to a carnival of repression by those in power, which just
    leads to more suffering. The best modern example is Israel. I read a
    fine article in Socialist Review recently by Steven Rose. Steven is a
    former Zionist who has turned against that movement. He points out how
    the Israelis used everthing there was to smash the PLO in Lebanon, at
    the time the PLO was using terror. The Palestinians were subjected to
    the most appalling suffering. The PLO is now engaged in a peace
    process, as these developments are laughably called. But what came of
    the repression: Hamas. So internment and repression won't work. 
    
    What will? We have to defeat those who want to continue the war and
    resist all change politically. We have to unite Catholic and
    Protestant, Arab and Jew, to oppose the social order which leads to
    exploitation and war.  It takes a lot of hard work, but it can be
    done.  
    
    So, I know, I have adressed things which have been slopped all over the
    place in different strings.
    
    Kevin

    Kevin,
    
    Most upheavals in history have occured during a period of state
    repression, be it by a monachy, feudal or otherwise powered state. As
    such upheavals invariably require the unification of the masses, do you
    think that the masses in western states such as America and the
    UKOGBANI are at a point of insurrection ? Do you feel that they have
    pierced the hymen of tolerance and are on the verge or revolt ? Do you
    really think that such an upheaval will occure within the next 50
    years ?
    
    If not, then your argument is not constructive to drawing a peacefull
    resolution to the NI troubles.
    
    Shaun.

    .37
    
    I'm sorry, but you've accused me of saying that all Americans donate
    money and I've asked for you to proove where I've said that. You can't.
    
    Who's guilty of sloppy thinking then? Not me.
    
    I'll have an apology please.        
    
    
    CHARLEY

    .38
    
    >I agree with you.  It certainly was implied.
    
    Then you've interpreted it incorrectly. After we've had a few months of
    discussion, I thought you'd know me better, that's sloppy logic on your
    part Mike.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    CHARLEY,
    
    After the weekend I've just had, I'm really not in the mood to fight
    with anyone, but it's hard not to somnetimes.
    
    We (Americans) hear consistently from our friends on the UK side how
    the IRA's money from the US is drying up and they will not be able to do
    any more damage/atrocities 'cause they don't have the money.
    
    I first responded to this argument, very angrily, when somebody in here
    said that there was joy in Boston over the London bombs.  The IRA blows
    up Manchester, and I have to do so again.  Sound like a pattern to you?
    
    And let's be clear, with one very, very notable exception, the Yanks in
    this file have expressed condemnation for the Canary Wharfs and etc.
    We've been fair, and where we've required enlightenment, we've
    listened.
    
    Not so from my UK comrades.  In the "feeding frenzy" of anti-IRA and SF
    rhetoric following Manchester, the same old crap resurfaces. 
    
    So, I called that, politely enough I thought, sloppy thinking, logic,
    writing.  If I'm wrong, and you do condemn that claptrap, please make
    it easy for me. We Yanks are an obtuse breed and need things spelled
    out for us.
    
    Please understand that, as an American with very strong Irish
    connections, I am proud that the Irish in America and their descendants
    have not turned their backs on Ireland and have, by their past
    contributions have supported Irish independence.
    
    Mike                                            

    re .40
    
   >> As such upheavals invariably require the unification of the masses, do
    you think that the masses in western states such as America and the
    UKOGBANI are at a point of insurrection ? 
    
    No, but these things are nearly always a suprise.  
    
    >>Do you feel that they have pierced the hymen of tolerance and are on 
    the verge or revolt ?
    
    What awful imagery. Sometimes even quite small revolts, out of the
    blue, have a big impact. 
    
     Do you really think that such an upheaval will occure within the next 50
     years ? 
    
    Yes indeed! Look back on the last 50 years. The world system is
    extremely unstable. 50 years ago, most of the major capitalist countries 
    were at war, an enormous conflagration in a pre-atomic age. The
    question is, what shape will these upheavals take.   
    
    >>    If not, then your argument is not constructive to drawing a
    peacefull resolution to the NI troubles.
    
    Watta putdown :-) Disbanding the SAS is a revolutionary task, but
    discrediting them so much that they are forced to abandon the doctrine
    of low intensity operations, the dirty tricks, the MI5 horror show, the
    torture the undercover killings, is an achievable task, worth
    struggling for, and essential to peace. The same goes for the sectarian
    nutters, the tories/unionists who feed the hate, and the physical force
    republicans who have disgraced themselves again.
    
    I've had enough of reality as fed to us by the powerful, Shaun, it
    stinks. How many wars have we had in the last 50 years and how many
    more will we witness in our lifetimes?
    
    Kevin

  Kevin,

   You need to get your thoughts straightened out.  You begin to make
  a good point, if you'd only leave the Marxists doctrine out of the
  discussion.  Not every battle in history is a struggle between the
  Proletariat masses and the Capitalist.  Sheesh, update your history
  a little.
                     
                         Mark

  P.S.
   See you at the world revolution comrade. :-)
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    >We (Americans) hear consistently from our friends on the UK side how
    >the IRA's money from the US is drying up and they will not be able
    >to do any more damage/atrocities 'cause they don't have the money.
    
    Yes, and in the past and right now (although not as much as before), 
    alot of American money has funded/is funding the I.R.A. This is a 
    statement of fact.
    
    >I first responded to this argument, very angrily, when somebody in here
    >said that there was joy in Boston over the London bombs.
    
    Can you speak for every single citizen of Boston?
    
    >We've been fair, and where we've required enlightenment, we've
    >listened.
    
    I was accused of saying that *all* Americans contributed financially to
    the I.R.A.. I invited whatserface to show me where I had written that
    whilst saying that I had never said such a thing. She could not,
    susequently she changed her argument to say that I implied that all 
    Americans etc. etc. I said that was not the case. 
    Yet you both carried on. You were not enlightened. You didn't listen.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
    
    I dont like stereotyping and I'm well aware theres good and bad in
    every society. I have Irish friends - I have american friends - but I
    too hold my hands up to feeling aggrieved at american finances heading
    into IRA hands. I KNOW only a small percantage of the population is
    involved but I also KNOW it exists - a colleague of mine at a previous
    work place openly admitted her ex-boyfriend had gone from Dublin to
    Boston specifically to raise funds for the IRA (whether or not it was
    under the guise of noraid was never discussed). I do not see this as an
    "American" issue but rather an issue of the individuals concerned who I
    feel sickened by. 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Shelley

re: .46

>    I was accused of saying that *all* Americans contributed financially to
>    the I.R.A.. I invited whatserface to show me where I had written that
>    whilst saying that I had never said such a thing. 

Ah, here's the problem.  Near as I remember, I made no such statement.
(But perhaps you could point it out.)

My argument has not changed either; it is simply this: many noters
make it sound as though all -- or even a majority -- of Americans
support SF/IRA and that we are continually fed IRA/SF "propaganda" 
on the events in Northern Ireland.  (Truth is, I fear, that very few 
even care that much what's going on outside their own backyards.)  

This issue has come up often enough so that it should be obvious to 
any intelligent being that it's a sore spot with a lot of Americans.
And yet these noters continue to phrase things in the same way and
a lot of Americans continue to be unhappy with that.  I've always
wondered why; deliberate rudeness is difficult for me to swallow
and sloppy writing only goes so far.  That's why I found the article
I mentioned earlier interesting, because it provided a reason for
these kinds of actions that is understandable to me.

Peace,
Nancy

    .30
    
    >But I doubt I'd go around continually accusing Britain or 
    >the British people in general of collusion 
    
    So you are in fact saying that is what I do. You're wrong. Apologise,
    and we can all carry on.
    
    
    CHARLEY

Charley, it is not my intention to offend anyone, but my 
impressions are valid as far as I'm concerned and, strangely 
enough, they seem to be shared by others.  I accept that you 
do not mean to say or imply that all or most Americans support 
the IRA/SF, but my perception of your and others statements is 
quite often just that and I find it quite disturbing.  But I'm 
not about to apologize either for expressing my opinions or for
my perception of things that are said here.  

If you wish to avoid this kind of thing, you could always watch
the way you phrase things.  If you don't, and it seems to me 
that you don't because this isn't the first time this has come 
up, then you can fully expect a push-back from some one at some 
time.  If you don't wish to discuss the issue, then you're not
required to.  I've never conversed with anyone who demanded an
apology because they disagreed with me.  This is ridiculous!

Peace,
Nancy

p.s. My apologies to Celtic noters for continuing this rathole 
     when I said I wouldn't.  But I promise, no more notes from 
     me on the matter.  I'm back to work. 8-)

    Just to set the matter straight
    
    >but my impressions are valid as far as I'm concerned and,
     
    Your impressions are wrong.
    
    
    CHARLEY$on_with_the_show

    You seem to have to have the last word.  It would appear that you and some
    others simply refuse to believe people when they tell you that very,
    very few people in the US donate to the Sinn Fein.  An even smaller
    amount donate to Noraid.  An even smaller amount, almost insignificant
    in a country of 260 million, donate to the IRA.  We are sorry that any
    donate, as their money would be better spent with Co-operation North or
    worthwhile charities, such as a fund for the victims of bombings in the
    UK. But always having to have the last word and demanding apologies
    seems a rather ridiculous way of having a mature dialogue.
    
    Regards, Ken Hanly                     

    
    Ken,
    
    Well said.  
    
    
    CHARLEY,
    
    I believe it is you who owe Nancy and others in here an apology.  Not
    because you disagree with us, but because you have persisted in
    carrying on an argument that people much closer to the facts have said
    is both offensive to them and untrue.
    
    If I recall correctly, it was your note that mentioned joy in Boston at
    the London bombings.  You mentioned a "source" close to the scene.
    Apparently it was OK for your mystery source to "speak for all of
    Boston."  I'm from Boston, and your note, an untruth, offended me.  
    
    You have a habit of anecdotal argument that is remarkably like Mark's.
    You should not be proud of that.
    
    Mike
    

RE: Funding

About 10 years ago a Journalist researched this and published a book
on the subject. I think it was called: The Financing of Terror.
I may still have it if anyone wants a fuller reference.

This guy's conclusion is that most of  the funds for Sectarian terror groups
originates in Ireland. Mainly from racketeering on: the Taxi's, Drinking Clubs,
Construction, etc..  He found only minimal amounts come from America, though
this is overstated by the IRA (to  promote American sympathy ) and
the British Govt. (to embarass the American Govt.). 

M

  Irish Northern Aid is a humanitarian organisation.  Not one penny of
  the money raised by Irish Northern Aid goes to weapons.  It is strictly
  used for humanitarian relief.

  Sinn Fein is a democratic political party.  Not one penny of it's 
  fund raising in the United States goes to the Irish Republican Army,
  or weapons.

  The U.S. government keeps close tabs on all such organisations.  Fund
  raising for Irish Northern Aid, and Sinn Fein would be frozen immediately
  by the U.S. government, if any of the funds went to the Irish Republican
  Army.

  I have no idea how the Irish Republican Army raises funds, but I can
  tell you that the books of both Noraid, and Friends of Sinn Fein are 
  watched very carefully by the U.S. government. Now, the British government
  would like the people of the U.S. to believe that NORAID or the Friends
  of Sinn Fein are involved in weapons purchases, or moving money to the
  Irish Republican Army.  This kind of "spin" makes it easier to crush
  the humanitarian, and political efforts of such organisations.  The fact
  remains, that the U.S. government has determined that neither organisation
  is responsible for raising funds for the Irish Republican Army.

                            Mark

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

	Mark,

>  I have no idea how the Irish Republican Army raises funds, .....

	After the Adare heist amd numerous bank robberies in the Republic it 
	is clear to many of us where the bulk of money comes from. 

	Of course robbing banks in the Republic is a valid part of TUAS?

	Pat 

    .53
    
    >If I recall correctly, it was your note that mentioned joy in Boston at
    >the London bombings.
    
    I'd like an apology for that as well as it wasn't. 
    
    That's twice in a week I've been accused of saying something I haven't.
    
    >carrying on an argument that people much closer to the facts have said
    >is both offensive to them and untrue.
    
    No, You have carried the argument on. .53 is proof of that. I'll state
    it again as you don't seem to be listening. (Something else you accused
    me of) Nancy stated that she believed that I thought all Americans
    donated money to IRA etc. I said that wasn't the case. Then you and her
    good self said I *implied* that all Americans donated money. Again I said
    that that was not the case. First of all you accused me of saying
    something I hadn't (something you make a habit of judging by your Boston
    comment) then you said you had interpreted my statements and that was 
    what I meant. Well anybody can interpret anything to mean what they want 
    to. It depends how vindictive the interpreter is. 
    
    I'll state it quite categorically now. "Very few Americans donate money to 
    the IRA." I know this to be fact.  
    
                                  
    CHARLEY

    .52
    
    re: mature dialogue.
    
    It's even more immature to accuse someone of saying something they
    haven't then when the accused defends his/her self and prove the
    accusers wrong, they switch thier argument to say "that's what you
    implied" etc. etc.

    I have no problems accepting that very few Americans, proportionately
    or otherwise, contribute to the IRA. Likewise, I have no problem
    accepting that some do. Holohan's .55 is as usual, speculation with no
    proof.
    
    Laurie.

    Oh yeah, on the subject of the diet of "crap and propaganda" I have
    alluded to, and which has been picked up on, particularly by Nancy
    (Hello, Nancy, give my regards to Piotr). It's like this:
    
    In this conference, until very recently, the only "documentation" and
    "news" that was posted here was from Holohan, and was, to any
    intelligent being, IRA "crap and propaganda". Now there are a few
    people who post items from the Irish Times, the Belfast Telegraph, and
    the UK Daily Telegraph, in addition to the occasional item from
    Reuters. All these sources are reputable, and the items are
    independently verifiable. These have not just re-dressed the balance,
    but have shown up the IRA "crap and propaganda" for what it is. Noters
    have commented that this has helped them understand the situation
    better, hearing another side, closer to the "action".
    
    Outside, in the real world, we have the SF/IRA Web site, most of which
    seems to be in this conference, with its propaganda, baised reporting,
    and down-right lies. There is so much spin in there, it's a wonder it
    doesn't make the world turn backwards. We have other electronic "news"
    services, like Ann Plobbybollocks (thanks, Shaun), all of which is
    slanted, exaggerated, or simply untrue. The US is not well known for
    its interest in external affairs, and the real nitty-gritty of the NI
    situation isn't widely reported, especially newspaper editorials and
    comments. US-based people therefore, have little information in the
    first place. Netaware Americans, and there are many, will use the
    electronic stuff they have at hand, and where it comes in the Mail,
    requiring no extra effort, they'll read it. Sadly, the UKGOBANI, and
    all other parties do not do this. The propaganda war against the IRA is
    unjoined, they have no opposition.
    
    When I refer to "the diet of crap and propaganda" fed to Americans, I
    base that comment on reading these mail-shots, looking at Web sites,
    and on the quality of rubbish Holohan posts in here, against PP&P in
    the furtherance of a cause he appears to support. The two recent
    examples were laughable, and we've been able to demonstrate that.
    However, what about the thousands of people who read this stuff and
    actually believe it? Don't tell me they don't exist, and don't tell me
    they see a balance, because I don't believe it, and you'll have to
    demonstrate otherwise to convince me.
    
    I stand by my comments.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    .57 & .58
    
    Silence descends.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Laurie, Charley,

    You and your government can "spin", and slam Sinn Fein and
  even the Irish Republican Army to your hearts content.  Your
  beloved HMG can ignore the democratic mandate of Sinn Fein.
  The British government can continue to refuse to sit down at
  the peace table.  You can't however kill the spirit of democracy,
  or the spirit of freedom.  They don't die from oppression, 
  they only get stronger.  Until people like you and your 
  government realize this, you'll probably continue to be at
  war with your enemy.
    Best of luck to you and the British people.  I hope for all
  your sakes you can find a peaceful solution to your problems.

                        Mark
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

The only killing going on just now seems to be being done - or attempted - by
the IRA, old son...

//atp

  >>You and your government can "spin", and slam Sinn Fein and
  >>even the Irish Republican Army to your hearts content.  Your
  >>beloved HMG can ignore the democratic mandate of Sinn Fein.
 
    It doesn't ignore it, in fact the democratic mandate is fully
    recognized. All that has been said is that Sinn Fein/IRA can't take
    their place at the peace table untill they call a ceasefire like all
    the other participating parties have done. Sinn Fein/IRA are keeping
    themselves in the cold - either accept it or put up, its wont go away
    you know.
    
    >>The British government can continue to refuse to sit down at
    >>the peace table.
    
    The British Government never has refused to sit at the peace table.
    Indeed it is sitting there right now, awaiting Sinn Fein/IRA to
    announce a ceasefire so that they may join in talks at the same level
    as everyone else.
    
    >>You can't however kill the spirit of democracy, or the spirit of freedom.
    
    Very true, the IRA's 25-year attempt to terrorise and kill democracy
    proves that it can't be killed. 
    
    >>They don't die from oppression, they only get stronger.
    
    Very true, if only the IRA could see this, perhapps you could pass on
    your insight to them Mark.
    
    >>Until people like you and your government realize this, you'll probably
    >>continue to be at war with your enemy.
    
    The people and the government realised this years ago Mark. It is not
    they who terrorize nations, nor they that act with wanton disregard for
    human life, or subvert all the principles of democracy. They are being
    forced into confrontation in order to protect people and society from
    those that threaten to mame and destroy it.
    
    >>Best of luck to you and the British people.  I hope for all
    >>your sakes you can find a peaceful solution to your problems.
    
    Thankyou, i'm sure England winning Euro 96 should help a great deal.
    
    Shaun.

�  You and your government can "spin", and slam Sinn Fein and
�  even the Irish Republican Army to your hearts content.  Your
�  beloved HMG can ignore the democratic mandate of Sinn Fein.

They haven't ignored any democratic mandate of Sinn Fein, they 
have asked Sinn F�in declare their "democratic mandate" by
comdemning the bombings, Sinn F�in so far have refused to 
do so.


�  The British government can continue to refuse to sit down at
�  the peace table. 

They haven't refused to sit down at the peace table. They are sat 
there now. They have refused to let Sinn F�in to join until certain
conditions are met.

�  You can't however kill the spirit of democracy,
�  or the spirit of freedom.  They don't die from oppression, 
�  they only get stronger.  


Is this sprit of freedom etc the same as killing women and children

�  Until people like you and your 
�  government realize this, you'll probably continue to be at
�  war with your enemy.

The British government is NOT at war with the Irish Republic or
its misguided organisations. The IRA thinks it is at war with
the British government.

�    Best of luck to you and the British people.  I hope for all
�    your sakes you can find a peaceful solution to your problems.

I wish the best of luck to all sides, I hope that a peaceful solution
can be found to OUR problems and that Sinn Fein wish to really be
a true democratic party and denounce its ties to a terrorist organisation.

Simon

    I've just one more thing to add after Shaun's note hammered Mark's out of 
    sight.
    
    >>Best of luck to you and the British people.  I hope for all
    >>your sakes you can find a peaceful solution to your problems.
    
    Same to you Americans.
    
    
    CHARLEY$sincere

    The others have said it all really, except that the British and Irish
    Governments are as one in all this. Slam Britain, and you slam the
    Republic too. Get a life Holohan.
    
    I understand the SF death squads have now been discovered secreting
    bombs in the Republic, bombs which the Irish believe to have been
    destined for "imminent use". Their attitude to SF/IRA is hardening even
    more. Time for SF to decide if they're terrorists or a democratic
    party.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

>It doesn't ignore it, in fact the democratic mandate is fully
>recognized.

 I guess then you'd call the faces of democratic representatives,
 locked out from the British peace talks, what? "British democracy
 in action".

 Here's one for you Shaun, what if you believe the British
 propoganda machine, and believe that Sinn Fein and the IRA
 are one in the same.  O.K., now how do you negotiate a peaceful
 solution with your enemies (Sinn Fein/IRA), if you refuse to
 sit down at the peace table with them?  Please explain the
 British position on this to me?  I don't get it.  Call me simple,
 but don't you have to talk with your enemies if you want to
 make peace with them?  What is a peace process that doesn't
 include the people you have defined as the enemy?  How come 
 the British could talk to Sinn Fein/IRA before the Irish
 Republican Army ceasefire of 18 months, but not during or
 after?

 Answer this, do people who want peace continue to refuse to sit
 down with the democratic representatives of the people they
 have labeled as their enemies?

                       Mark

 
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

Listen Mark and READ.

�if you refuse to sit down at the peace table with them?

They haven't refused to sit down at the peace table.
They have stated that Sinn F�in can't until a cease
fire is announced.

�Call me simple, but don't you have to talk with your
�enemies if you want to make peace with them? 

The British government is talking to Sinn F�in all the time
I expect. There is _ONLY ONE_ thing stopping Sinn F�in
going to the peace table, that is the refusal of an IRA
cease fire, nothing more, nothing less. The BRistish Government 
is sat there ready and waiting.

Simon

    Holohan, your persistent refusal or inability to understand simple
    logic is disturbing:
    
    1) SF are NOT "locked out from the British peace talks", the door is
       open, they simply can't cross the threshold until the IRA call a
       ceasefire. This is a very simple concept.
    
    2) The British Government *does* believe IRA/SF to be effectively the
       same, to the extent that it believes they are inextricably linked at
       the highest level. Proof of this is the fact that SF are being
       refused entry to the peace talks. The Irish Government backs this
       to the hilt. This is a very simple concept.
    
    3) The BG and IGs have not refused "sit down at the peace table with
       them [SF]", see 2 above. This is a very simple concept.
    
    4) The peace process does "include the people you have defined as the
       enemy", they simply refuse to do the simple and honourable thing,
       which is to stop killing and maiming people in order to get their own
       way: see 2 above. This is a very simple concept.
    
    5) The people who want peace do NOT "refuse to sit down with the
       democratic representatives of the people they have labeled as their
       enemies", as long as those enemies (Labelled? Ye Gods, the bastards
       are blowing up women and children! Labelled????!) stop trying to
       bomb their own way. This is a very simple concept.
    
    However you try to spin it, all the parties interested in peace are sat
    there waiting for the one party which feels blowing women and children
    to smithereens is an appropriate way to follow the path to peace. Face
    it Holohan, your heroes are murdering bastards, and not in the least
    bit interested in peace,. The path is open, and they refuse to take it.
    The longer this goes on, the clearer it is that IRA/SF are not
    interested in a negotiated peace, and never were.
    
    Get A Life.
    
    Laurie.

    Mark,
    
    Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fundamental basics of this
    discussion. Sinn Fein/IRA are one and the other. Sinn Fein/IRA have
    peace staring them in the face yet they refuse to take it up because
    they can't get their own way.
    
    Why do you choose to ignore these simple facts?
    
    Why do you refuse to believe the truth? 
    
    I'd like to know.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    I am amused by Mike and Nancy's silence after they were proved wrong 
    some notes back.
        
        
    CHARLEY

As I have said before, was it in here or in EF96.

Sinn F�in/IRA don't want peace, they want control.

Simon

    For christ sake don't let 'em in EF96 !!!!!

    Good idea Shaun. Let's all migrate the
    NI discussion to VAXCAT::EF96.
    
    :v)

>Note 1587.61                      The REAL IRA                          61 of 75
>    .57 & .58
>    
>    Silence descends.
>    
>    CHARLEY
    
>Note 1587.72                      The REAL IRA                          72 of 75
>    I am amused by Mike and Nancy's silence after they were proved wrong 
>    some notes back.
>        
>    CHARLEY
    
    
    CHARLEY, ever hear the phrase "Let sleeping dogs lie?"  Geez.
    
    Geo

> Thankyou, i'm sure England winning Euro 96 should help a great deal.
>    
>    Shaun.


    6-5 Germany, meanwhile in an article on English fan reaction,
    from the Irish Times.

    "When they found their route to Piccadilly cut off by
    police, the fans began milling in the street near the
    National Gallery. Terrified motorists cowered in their
    vehicles as their doors were kicked and their windscreens
    covered in spit."

                       Mark

    


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    >"Let sleeping dogs lie?"  Geez.
    
    George,
    
    it is absolutely intolerable that you are prepared to allow dogs to
    tell lies in this conference. This is an obvious violation of all
    Digital stands for. In fact, it is really
    
                                 S L O P P Y
    
    Now where is this EF96 stuff ?
                                  

    .76
    
    No why should I?
    
    They've accused me of saying something I haven't and have announced
    that a pretty shitty statement (joy in Boston) come from my quarter. It
    didn't, I would like the remark withdrawn.
    
    
    CHARLEY 

    .77
    
    Yep, unfortunately the mindless element reared its ugly head in
    Trafalgar Square, it's not something we're too proud of. Anyway, if
    you're going to post notes about bad fan behavior, do you care to
    mention New York Giants fans???
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Mark, do you really think your note was Relevent ? I hope anyone,
    holigan or not, who comits an act of violence should be sevearly dealt with
    by the police.....don't you agree ?
    
    Shaun.

RE:         <<< Note 1587.81 by BIS1::MENZIES "Resume the Ceasefire!!!" >>>

>>    holigan or not, who comits an act of violence should be sevearly dealt with
      ^^^^^^^
    
    Shaun, he doesn't like it if people take the piss out of his name.
    He'll threaten to escalate to Bob Palmer if you persist. I suggest you
    apologise immediately.
    
    HtH, Laurie.

    But i'm dyslexic!
    
    Shuan.

    CHARLEY,
    
    If it's any consolation - I know that you did *NOT*
    author the "joy in Boston" note. That was another
    person.
    
    Nor do I think that you believe that all Americans
    support terrorism.
    
    Rgds,
    Geo

    >                             S L O P P Y
    
    Kevin, 
    
    I think you meant S N O O P Y, not Sloppy.
    
    Geo
    

>    Nor do I think that you believe that all Americans
>    support terrorism.
    
>    Rgds,
>    Geo

    George,
       I also don't think he believes that all Americans support
    terrorism.
                      Mark

    P.S.
    Will you pass the hat this time at the bar, or shall I? :-)


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    
    
    So glad to be back !  The last few days certainly have been hectic. 
    Just got my SF/IRA Visa card (from the Bank Of America, of course)
    which allows me to contribute a percentage of my purchases directly to
    SF/IRA/NORAID and the Little Sisters Of The Poor.  The Shell gas
    station down the street is running a special which features, for every
    fill-up or oil change, a coupon good for one Armalite.  Save up twenty
    coupons and they mail the weapon AND ammunition to Gerry (my man)
    Adams.  
    
    So, I ruffled CHARLEY'S feathers. Too bad. And, before I'm told I have
    "sloppy manners" by people who use terms like "coward faggots,"
    call people "hypocrites" and tell people who disagree with them to
    "piss off," I do most sincerely apologize for any discomfort I might have
    caused you or any of the other noters who have since stated that they
    do not believe that:
    
    	1. The majority of Americans give money to the IRA.
    	2. The majority of the funding for IRA comes from America.
    
    This apparently does not include all noters, because the quote was
    made.  I'm sure that those who so stridently called for me to apologize
    will now pursue the identity of the real perpetrator and help clear the
    name of the British leaning noters, just like OJ.
    
    I'm sure now that people have clarified their beliefs that we will not
    have to wade through anymore of the drivel that does crop up regularly
    after Mark's friends pull off another atrocity.
    
    Happy ?
    
    Enjoy the Fourth Of July.  I know I will.
    
    Mike Barry
    
    

    Fourth of July ?......is that D-Day or something ?
    
    Shaun ;^)

    >Happy ?
    
    Yes. Seems you ain't though.
    
    CHARLEY

    AP 30-Jun-1996 18:30 EDT   REF5403

    Copyright 1996. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

    Caller Claims IRA Bombing

    DUBLIN, Ireland (AP) -- A telephone caller claimed responsibility on
    behalf of the IRA on Sunday for a mortar attack last week on a British
    military base in Germany. 

    "The attack mounted against the military installation was carried out
    by one of our units," a man identifying himself as a representative of
    the IRA told RTE, the Irish state broadcasting network. 

    Friday's attack on the British base at Osnabrueck in northwest Germany
    caused no injuries but damaged buildings and vehicles. 

    It would be the first Irish Republican Army attack on British forces in
    mainland Europe in six years. The IRA killed 14 people in West Germany
    and Holland from 1988 to 1990, when a botched attack in Holland in May
    killed two Australian tourists mistaken for British soldiers. 

    The IRA, which has fought for 25 years against British rule in Northern
    Ireland, ended its 17-month cease fire on Feb. 9 when it detonated a
    large bomb in the east end of London. 

    CHARLEY,
    
    Thanks for your concern, but I'm quite happy.  I'm the proud father of
    four very nice children; have a wonderful wife; a dog, cat and garden
    that I enjoy. The sun is shining. I'm privileged to live in a free
    country. And, I'm an Irish-American (two very good reasons to be happy).
    
    You got your aplogy. It clearly means alot to you, or you wouldn't
    gloat and think of my "happiness".
    
    I suggest you get a life......
    
    Slan agat,
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    What are the dog and the cat called ?
    
    Do they get on together ?
    
    Kevin

    Dog's name is Nigel.  They get on better than most do.
    
    Don't much like cats.....
    
    

    >I suggest you get a life......
    
    I see, you accuse me of saying two things that I haven't said and
    refuse to withdraw those comments. Then when proved wrong and after
    submitting a begrudged apology you start insulting me.
    
    It's you that needs to get a life me old son.
    
    
    CHARLEY

`IRA fail to heed logic a six-year-old understands'


By Mark Simpson Political Correspondent TAOISEACH John Bruton has
accused the IRA of failing to heed logic that a six-year-old child could 
understand.
In a scathing attack on the Provisionals, Mr Bruton said their campaign of
violence was pointless. Speaking on the BBC's Breakfast With Frost
programme, the Taoiseach said: "It is a completely useless and self-defeating
campaign. "You will never unite people in any way by fighting, or by promoting
fighting between them and that's something a six-year-old child understands. 
"But
unfortunately, the people who are pursuing this tactic don't understand it." Mr
Bruton was speaking in the wake of the IRA mortar bomb attack on a British army
base in Germany. He warned that the recent wave of IRA activity was damaging
hopes republicans might have had of obtaining "reasonable concessions". And
he urged them to consider the effect the German and Manchester attacks had on
the willingness of other political parties to sit down with Sinn Fein at the 
talks
table. He said Friday's assault on the British Army's Osnabruck base in Germany
was "appalling, when you think about the number of soldiers and their families,
who are engaged in a peace-keeping exercise in Europe, how many of them
could have been killed by this mortar attack. "It's obviously a continuation of
the
campaign of violence by the IRA, and it is utterly pointless. "They used 
violence
for 25 years, and all they did was bring hardship on everybody, but 
particularly on
the people who have supported them." Mr Bruton said terrorists should
understand ``the Government and the people are not going to be intimidated by
this type of activity". He said no decision had been made on the exact
circumstances needed now for Sinn Fein to enter talks. "Obviously, talks would
only work if the people you want to talk are willing to talk to one another. 
"The
governments can't force people to talk. "The republican movement needs to think
about the effect their bombs are having on, for example, the unionist parties,
with
whom they say they want to talk, and the Alliance party and their supporters, 
and
indeed the SDLP. "These are people who don't believe in intimidation, and who
don't believe you can practise intimidation up to Sunday night and then on
Monday night say you've given it all up and be completely believed.'' Mr Bruton
insisted the Stormont talks would continue _ with or without Sinn Fein.

                                                
Monday 1 July 1996
Copyright Belfast Telegraph 

    RTw  07/15 1256  UK police arrest seven, say averted bomb disaster

    By Andrew Clark

    LONDON, July 15 (Reuter) - British anti-terrorist police on arrested
    seven men on Monday and seized enough components to make 36 bombs,
    saying they had narrowly averted a series of IRA guerrilla attacks in
    London and the south-east of England.

    "I believe we were only a few hours away from grave loss of life in
    London and the south-east," police commander John Grieve told a news
    conference hours after his men had swooped on four south London
    addresses.

    "A substantial amount of bomb-making equipment was recovered at these
    addresses...including the components to make 36 devices, including time
    and power units," said Grieve.

    "The number of devices suggests there was to be a whole series of
    attacks over a prolonged period," he added, describing the operation as
    a "significant success in our struggle against Irish Republican Army
    terrorism."

    Asked the nationalities of the men, Grieve would only say : "Some of
    them are Northern Irish."

    It was the second major find of bomb-making material in London since
    the IRA ended a 17-month old ceasefire in February in protest at what
    it saw as British intransigence in the Northern Ireland peace process.

    "We recovered a quantity of documentation including maps and false
    identities for those who had been targeting London's utilities," said
    Grieve, but declined to elaborate.

    In February police found vast amounts of bomb-making material at the
    home of an IRA guerrilla who killed himself with his own bomb on a
    London bus.

    The IRA have planted seven bombs in Britain since February including a
    truck bomb which blew up a shopping centre in the northern city of
    Manchester in June, injuring some 200 people.

    Grieve made a special appeal to taxi and truck drivers to help play
    their part in the fight against terrorism.

    "By using your eyes and ears, as well as your knowledge of the
    transport system you can assist the police. You could have extremely
    vital information," he said.

    In recent incidents on the British mainland trucks have been used to
    transport explosives around the country.

    Police hunting the Manchester bombers said on Monday they believed they
    had found the getaway car used in the attack.

    Monday's arrests followed a joint campaign by police and the MI5 secret
    security service, which has recently been given increased powers to
    track down guerrillas.

    Residents in one south London street cordoned off by police overnight
    reported hearing gunfire, but Grieve said the police had discharging
    tear gas into the homes to minimise resistance.

    Monday's arrests came against a background of widespread rioting across
    Northern Ireland sparked by the decision last week to allow a
    Protestant parade to march through a Catholic area in the town of
    Portadown.

    Seventeen people were injured in a bomb at a hotel in Northern Ireland
    on Saturday. The IRA denied responsibility.

    REUTER