| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1578.1 | Fein not Fin | NETRIX::"[email protected]" | Mark Holohan | Mon May 20 1996 15:32 | 6 |
|
Please excuse the spelling of Fein, and the missing fada.
Mark
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
|
| 1578.2 | | CBHVAX::CBH | Mr. Creosote | Mon May 20 1996 18:51 | 3 |
| > Please excuse the spelling
It doesn't normally bother you. Ooh, vicious!
|
| 1578.3 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue May 21 1996 06:15 | 8 |
| I'd hardly describe the RUC as a 'paramilitary force', admittedly there
are elements that lean towards unionism and even loyalism, but it must
be accepted that, since the policy of Police Primacy was introduced and
the many RUC reforms undertaken since the troubles began, it is
accepted as a legitimate policing force by the majority of the
inhabitants of NI.
Shaun.
|
| 1578.4 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Tue May 21 1996 07:35 | 6 |
| I wonder it I detect a little damage limitation exercise here. To whit,
when SF don't receive the massive mandate they seem to think they
deserve, they can turn round and claim the election was unfair, thereby
justifying whatever response they feel is appropriate.
Laurie.
|
| 1578.5 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue May 21 1996 07:56 | 10 |
| I also feel that, considering the amount of hand-holding the Government
has been exhibiting in trying to help get Sinn Fein to the negotiation
table, there is no way that the RUC would be allowed to even fart near
a Sinn Fein candidate.
The article does little to explain why certain people were picked up in
the community....for all we know, it could be an entirely seperate
incident.
Shaun.
|
| 1578.6 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | Captain Planet | Tue May 21 1996 08:10 | 4 |
| I agree, it's all a bit vague.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.7 | "PUP's" | IAMOK::BARRY | | Wed May 29 1996 09:59 | 24 |
|
NPR (National Public Radio) here in the US had an interview with Billy
Hutchinson of the Progressive Unionist Party (PUPs) on air this
morning. He said all the right things and appeared to be a reasonable
voice from the Unionist camp.
Among the things that he said:
~ The traditional Unionist parties are more interested in flags
than in people, and will never deliver peace to NI.
~ His party would negotiate a settlement for ALL of the folks in
NI.
~ He is less concerned with the borders than with economic
development.
Not only is this guy a breath of fresh air from a Unionist
(Ulster-Says-NO) perspective, but also in contrast to Gerry Adams and
SF.
Is this guy for real ? What are his chances for some success ?
Mike
|
| 1578.8 | | IRNBRU::HOWARD | Lovely Day for a Guinness | Wed May 29 1996 11:51 | 18 |
| .7, Mike
There does seem to be a lot of political `posturing' happening at this
time. I watched a BBC news programme last night that had short-ish
interviews with members of the DUP, SF and SDLP. Ian Paisley was his
usual self, (no,no,no etc...), the SF man, (Gerry Kelly, I think),
quoted the party line and blamed HMG and the Irish government for the
current impasse. John Hume was the only one of them who came out with
any credit from the programme. He asked everyone to try to be more
optimistic than of late. He still thinks that we have the best
opportunity in the last 30 or so years to create a just and lasting
peace, and I think that he's right. The people of NI want peace more
than ever, the people in position's of power will have to grant them
their wish sooner or later. I, like Hume, prefer to think positively
and hope that the IRA will re-instate the ceasefire. Perhaps a good
showing in the election for SF might persuade them to do so....
Ray....
|
| 1578.9 | an interesting day ahead | ESSC::KMANNERINGS | | Thu May 30 1996 05:50 | 14 |
| The election is very interesting. It looks like the Unionist vote will
split and Major will use this to outmanoeuvre Dunce Trimble and Plodder
Taylor. It also sounds like John Hume is bringing SF onside, but he
can't say much because of the Joe Hendron situation. BTW I disagree of
course on Hendrons analysis of SF and their politics, as discussed here
elsewhere. Paisley can have his teeth drawn, but the key question is
whether he can whip up sectarian hatred on the streets (Ormeau Road for
example) or not. So the politics of crossing the sectarian divide and
arguing for class politics intead is as important as ever. The Ed
O'Brien fans are a pain, a distraction and an obstruction to this, but
(given John Hume's silent help) the electorate may not blame SF for the
IRA outrages. It has happened before, eg Bobby Sands MP.
Kevin
|
| 1578.10 | Sinn F�in vote increases by 50% | GYRO::HOLOHAN | | Mon Jun 03 1996 10:43 | 117 |
| [Image]
Sinn F�in vote increases by 50%
17 seats for Sinn F�in
Sinn F�in response to election results
In the light of unprecedented electoral support in a six-county
election for Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams said that ``those who imposed
the elections upon us have a responsibility now to abide by, and
to accept and to respect the outcome of yesterday's poll.''
He urged the British and Irish governments to ``get down to
business and clear the way to all-party talks'', and added: ``If
we are not involved, there won't be proper peace negotiations''.
The increase of 50% in Sinn Fein's support was ``a vote of
confidence from the eletorate for the role that we have played in
the peace process'', according to Sinn Fein negotiator Martin
McGuinness.
``It now remains to be seen whether or not the British government
and particularly the British Prime Minister is going to recognise
a very resounding Sinn Fein mandate and bring about immediately
the negotiations which all the people in this island desire and
crave.
``We need to build a new future for our children. We can only do
that if all the parties in the two governments agree that it is
now past the time for all-party peace negotiations to deal with
the very serious issues of conflict which exist in this country''.
Party chairman Mitchel McLaughlin said that ``if Sinn Fein's vote
was ignored yet again this will validate the views of those people
who have decided in their own heads that there is an argument in
favour of non-constitutional political action''
* Sinn F�in Election Manifesto
* Results of Online Vote
Election Results
South Belfast Lagan Valley Mid Ulster
Final Result: Final Result: Final Result:
* UUP 2 * UUP 3 * UUP 1
* Alliance * SDLP 1 * DUP 1
1 * UDP 1 * SF 2
* SDLP 1 * SDLP 1
* DUP 1
North Belfast South Antrim Fermanagh/
South Tyrone
Final Result: Final Result:
Final Result:
* UUP 1 * UUP 2
* DUP 2 * DUP 2 * SDLP 1
* SF 1 * SDLP 1 * SF 1
* SDLP 1 * UUP 2
* DUP 1
West Belfast Newry/Armagh East Belfast
Final Result: Final Result: Final Result:
* SDLP 1 * SDLP 2 * Alliance 1
* SF 4 * SF 2 * DUP 3
* UUP 1 * SDLP 1
Foyle East Derry Upper Bann
Final Result: Final Result: Final Result:
* SF 2 * DUP 2 * UUP 2
* SDLP 3 * SDLP 1 * DUP 1
* UUP 2 * SDLP 1
* SF 1
North Down South Down East Antrim
Final Result: Final Result: Final Result:
* UK * SDLP 3 * UUP 2
Unionist * SF 1 * DUP 2
1 * UUP 1 * Alliance
* DUP 1
* UUP 2
* Alliance
1
Strangford West Tyrone North Antrim
Final Result: Final Result: Final Result:
* DUP 2 * UUP 1 * DUP 2
* UUP 3 * DUP 1 * UUP 2
* SF 1 * SDLP 1
* SDLP 2
Top-Up List
* UUP 2
* SDLP 2
* SF 2
* DUP 2
* Alliance 2
* Others 10
Thanks to all who supported our campaign!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinn F�in Home Page
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Web publication by [email protected]
Web archival by [email protected]
|
| 1578.11 | | MOVIES::POTTER | http://www.vmse.edo.dec.com/~potter/ | Mon Jun 03 1996 11:32 | 4 |
| Does anyone have a note of the actual %age votes?
regards,
//alan
|
| 1578.12 | From the Emigrant | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Mon Jun 03 1996 12:25 | 68 |
|
ONE HURDLE CROSSED
The Northern Election is now over but political analysts continue to
pore over the results, trying to interpret the motives of the
electorate. The politicians have no difficulty in interpreting such
motives as all have a ready explanation for aspects of the outcome with
which they are unhappy.
When all the votes were counted the UUP turned out to be the most
popular party and the number of seats won reflected this. There had
been predictions, mostly from Rev. Ian Paisley and his colleagues, that
this would not be the case. The SDLP came second but found itself with
fewer seats than the DUP due to shortcomings in the unusual electoral
process. Sinn Fein was expected to come fourth and so it was, but at
15.4% of the total vote the party did much better than predicted by its
opponents. The electoral system did not help the Alliance Party as its
6.5% of the vote gave it just five constituency seats when it might
have expected seven. Bigger things had been expected of Bob
McCartney's UK Unionist Party but he had to be content with one
constituency seat. The fringe unionist parties failed to win
constituency seats but both the PUP and the UDP will still be at the
forum on the basis of the seats awarded for being among the ten most
popular parties. The recently formed NI Women's Coalition will also be
there on the same basis. The NIWC is a cross community organisation
which is very conscious of the minor part women are allowed to play in
Northern politics.
The results show quite radical differences from the European election
of 1994 but that was fought very much on a personality basis with Ian
Paisley and John Hume being given large personal votes. A more
relevant comparison is with the local Government elections of 1993.
Here we see that the UUP's share of the vote fell by almost five
percentage points; the SDLP lost half a point; Alliance was down 1.2;
Sinn Fein was up three points and DUP up 1.6.
The following are the overall party totals with the number of seats
won. These carry some minor corrections from the figures in the
special edition which was sent out on Friday. The turnout of 64.7% was
close to that expected in general elections.
Votes Seats %age of poll
Ulster Unionist 181,829 28+2 24.1%
SDLP 160,786 19+2 21.3%
Democratic Unionist 141,413 22+2 18.7%
Sinn Fein 116,377 15+2 15.4%
Alliance 49,176 5+2 6.5%
UK Unionist 27,774 1+2 3.6%
Progressive Unionist 26,082 0+2 3.4%
Ulster Democratic 16,715 0+2 2.2%
NI Womens Coalition 7,731 0+2 1.0%
Labour 6,425 0+2 0.8%
----------------------------------------------
Green Party 3,647
The Conservative Party 3,595
Workers Party 3,530
Ulster Independence Movement 2,125
Democratic Left 1,215
Democratic Partnership 1,046
Independent McMullan 927
Independent Chambers 567
Natural Law 389
Ind. Democratic Unionist 388
Templeton Ind. 350
Ulster Ind. Voice 204
Communist 66
Ulster Christian Democrat 31
|
| 1578.13 | British The Briti | NETRIX::"[email protected]" | Mark Holohan | Mon Jun 03 1996 13:17 | 16 |
|
The British government has no desire to see peace. Even after their
attempts to scuttle the election process, by harrassing Sinn Fein
campaign workers, Sinn Fein has been given an even larger electoral
mandate by the people of north east Ireland.
If the British really wanted to see peace, they would allow everyone
a seat at the peace table, without preconditions. They would
recognize the giant electoral mandate given Sinn Fein.
Anyone can see that the latest pathetic attempts to delay peace talks
(heading on for two years now, of British delays) are nothing more
than continued British stalling.
Mark
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
|
| 1578.14 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Mon Jun 03 1996 13:27 | 6 |
| .13
You know absolutely nothing except paranoia.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.15 | More clueless idiocy. Yawn. | 42344::CBH | Mr. Creosote | Mon Jun 03 1996 14:07 | 10 |
| .13,
Holohan, you are *so* boring. I didn't even bother reading that note beyond
the first sentence, as it's so obviously yet another endless reiteration of
the same, tired old bollocks we're all so familiar with.
You've said your piece ad nauseum, we all know your opinion, so leave it be
unless you have anything new to say.
Chris.
|
| 1578.16 | What now ? | IAMOK::BARRY | | Mon Jun 03 1996 14:53 | 19 |
|
Mark,
I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, but rather than argue them
out, let me ask you what SF should do now ? Do they attempt to force
the British and Irish governments to permit them to enter the peace
talks ? If so, what do they propose to do if Paisley's people boycott?
Adams is correct when he says that there cannot be peace talks without
SF, but isn't that equally true of Paisley's folks ?
What's the most logical course to take now for SF?
Please understand that I'm not taking any one position over another by
asking you these questions, but I'm really not sure what SF is thinking
about or what their strategy is.
Mike
|
| 1578.17 | | 42344::CBH | Mr. Creosote | Mon Jun 03 1996 15:10 | 4 |
| Mike, some good points there. I just thought I may at least try to sound
positive after my last rather tetchy missive. :)
Chris.
|
| 1578.18 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:08 | 63 |
| 1578.19 | | WOTVAX::DODD | | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:53 | 9 |
| Could someone outline how they think the various parties will align? I
will admit that I do not, accurately, understand which parties are
friends of which. Is the forum balanced and the small parties hold sway
ar is there a dominant block?
Thanks
Andrew
|
| 1578.20 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 04 1996 07:59 | 25 |
| Its difficult to say but, assuming no back-stabing and Paislyite
political conjuring, i'd say the split would be as follows (with a
possible swinging of the Alliance Party)
Pro-British
===========
Ulster Unionist Party 30
Democratic Unionist Party 24
UK Unionist Party 3
Progressive Unionist Party 2
The Ulster Democratic Party 2
Total: 61
Pro-Irish
=========
Social Democratic and Labour Party 21
Sinn Fein 17
Alliance 7
Labour 2
Northern Ireland Women's Coalition 2
Total: 49
|
| 1578.21 | | METSYS::THOMPSON | | Tue Jun 04 1996 08:32 | 20 |
|
I think there's a potential split between UUP and DUP. The UUP are to some
extent "playing John Major's game" whereas Paisly wants to terminate the
whole process. When the UUP hinted they would talk to Sinn Fein Paisly
virtually accused them of being liars [his point was that if the UUP had
informed people of their willingness to talk during the campaign that
the DUP would have been the largest single party].
The smaller unionist parties are there because they are plainly not satisfied
with the larger ones. Interestingly the PUP are the ones most willing to talk
to Sinn Fein - dismissing the disarmament precondition as irrelevant.
I must confess I can't really figure out where they are coming from!
I would have put the Womens coalition as Pro-British in your classification.
All in all it seems to have been a waste of time. People have voted along
sectarian lines and we already knew that split anyway. It has added some
new voices to the debate, perhaps they will introduce change.
M
|
| 1578.22 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 04 1996 09:59 | 14 |
| I have to agree M? Thompson that the whole thing has been a bit of a
waste of time. At the outset I had hoped that the UUP and DUP would be
pacified by an election...yet, considering their political agenda, this
doesn't seem to be the case. I had hoped that Sinn Fein would fear being
politicaly sidelined if the IRA did not reinstate the ceasefire...
unfortunately their election results have made them 'cockey'.
However, maybe i'm becoming cynical as the nearer the day that all parties
will actually sit together and try to work this out becomes. Maybe they
will be brave, maybe they will negociate something for everyone, maybe
John Hume can keep the cat and dog apart just long enough for them to
see the wolf.
Shaun.
|
| 1578.23 | Sauce for the Goose | METSYS::BENNETT | Straight no chaser.. | Tue Jun 04 1996 15:16 | 36 |
| Although Sinn Fein do not have a mandate (according to the Oxford
English Dictionary definition of the word) their standing in the
results table indicates the support of 15% of the Northern Ireland
population. Given the roughly 60/40 split between Unionist and
Nationalist voters, Sinn Fein's share of the vote represents 37.5%
of the total number of Nationalist votes cast.
I suspect the result surprised not only the British Government, but
also the Irish Government, the SDLP, all the Unionist parties and
notably, Sinn Fein itself (bilingual pun intended).
It would be unfair and undemocratic, in my view, to bar Sinn Fein from
the talks. After all, peace and some kind of workable consensus are
the main objectives in these talks.
De-commissioning of arms is the big sticking point in many quarters,
although Mitchell didn't see that as a show-stopper. Perhaps it's fair
to point out here that the British Government didn't insist on it as
a pre-condition for talks with Serbs, Croats and the rest of the
factions in former Yugoslavia. However, that aside, I think the British
Government should insist that all Unionist paramilitaries should also
de-commission their arms. To be even handed, and to be seen as such,
they should repeat the demand and address it to all sides.
The only person I've heard say that on TV or radio is Ian Paisley. I
feel sure there were others, but from this side of the Irish Sea, you
can't hear them very well. It's a shame, that. But then again, John
Major has a majority of one in Parliament, and there are times when
he needs the support of the Unionists to avoid policy defeat or the
loss of a vote of confidence debate.
After all.. what's sauce for the goose..
John
|
| 1578.24 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 04 1996 16:58 | 10 |
| Maybe its me, but decommissioning of weapons is not now a pre-condition
to talks. The only precondition that exists is that the IRA must resume
their ceasefire before Sinn Fein can sit at the peace table. It should
be noted that the Loyalist Paramilitary organisations have not ended
their ceasefire like the IRA.
Having said that, arms decommisioning will be discussed parallel to the
talks.
Shaun.
|
| 1578.25 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Wed Jun 05 1996 05:46 | 6 |
| I think that's the case Shaun.
And I'm with John, decommissioning should be universal.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.26 | | WOTVAX::DODD | | Wed Jun 05 1996 08:04 | 11 |
| I think we'll see Sinn Fein being turned away from day 1 of the peace
talks. Lots of political huffing and puffing from SF. Then very soon a
resumption of the IRA ceasefire. SF sweep in to the peace talks on a
tide of political victory.
It remains to be seen what other groups may then leave.
Surely, many of the voters who supported SF did so because they are
smart enough to realise there can be no peace without SF?
Andrew
|
| 1578.27 | | IRNBRU::HOWARD | Lovely Day for a Guinness | Wed Jun 05 1996 08:54 | 13 |
| What are the opinions of the noters here about what this election
achieved? From what I can gather, the various parties percentage of the
vote, (give or take a percentage point or two), was exactly along the
lines expected, so in my opinion, the election achieved little or
nothing. If this vote had taken place last year then talks could have
happened because the August 94 ceasefire was still in place. Now it
looks like SF won't be allowed in on 10 June, and if they do then the DUP
will probably walk out, which leads to my next question. Will the talks
be worth anything without SF or the DUP at the table(s)?...the answer,
again in my opinion, has to be NO because you would be alienating 30+%
of the electorate....So what's the solution?, God only knows....
Ray....
|
| 1578.28 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Wed Jun 05 1996 09:27 | 13 |
| .27
>So what's the solution?, God only knows..
How about the I.R.A. announcing a ceasefire.
I'm not sure on this but I'm pretty convinced that the DUP would accept
Sinn Fein at the peace table if a ceasefire was in place.
But then again I might be wrong.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.29 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Wed Jun 05 1996 11:13 | 10 |
| The DUP would have no alternative but to accept Sinn Fein at the peace
table if the IRA called a ceasefire...whether or not they try and
scuttle the talks later is another thing however.
The IRA have no choice but to make the necessary move on this point, it
is they who are the furthest from 'democracy' as there is no place for
terrorism in democracy. Come on boys...show us you really can be men
after all..
Shaun.
|
| 1578.30 | | IRNBRU::HOWARD | Lovely Day for a Guinness | Wed Jun 05 1996 11:29 | 6 |
| .29 Shaun,
I hope that you're right about the IRA. But what do you think the
elections achieved?...
Ray....
|
| 1578.31 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Wed Jun 05 1996 12:28 | 22 |
| Admittedly I was very disillusioned about the elections, feeling they
had achieved nothing but reinforce the status-quo of sectarian
deadlock. However, if anything, it has forced the hard-line unionists,
such as that twat Paisley, into agreeing to sit at the same table with
Sinn Fein if the IRA call a ceasefire. They said they'd sit with
democraticaly elected representatives and the Sinn fein representatives
have been democraticaly elected, thus they have to sit with them...but
only if the IRA reinstate the cease fire.
When has the opposing parties of NI ever been in a position where the
representatives of such parties are ready to sit down together and talk
about finding a peacefull solution to the Troubles?
This unique oppotunity is hanging on the IRA....its their ball! And
these elections created a scenario from which the hard-line Unionists
can't back out....unless the IRA lets them by not reinstating the
ceasefire.
Having said that, it is yet to be seen what'll happen during the
talks!!!
Shaun.
|
| 1578.32 | My $0.02 | IAMOK::BARRY | | Wed Jun 05 1996 12:45 | 36 |
|
Looks to me that the elections have only served to lock the Unionists
into the talks. It would be, from my perspective anyway, fairly
difficult for them to walk away from something that they insisted on.
It's also served to box in the British Government from the perspective
that they now have a democratically elected group, SF, that they will
now most likely exclude from the talks. In fairness to the British,
the IRA breaking the ceasefire, although something they might have
anticipated, further complicated the situation.
What the IRA is thinking of is not clear. What effect this election
will have on them is unclear. If you look at their history, they have
pretty much taken a narrowly defined path. This goes back to the Free
State days when they took a position that put them out in the cold for
a very long time. My take on them is that they will ignore the
election and not call a ceasefire.
What this means in the long term is very unclear. Both governments and
much of the population, North and South, want peace. Will both
governments and the people support a hard line on the IRA (as was the
case in the Free State days)? Will the Protestant paramilitaries remain
quiet? Their restraint so far is admirable and has won them much
respect in the US.
Mike
Mike
Mike
f
|
| 1578.33 | | WOTVAX::DODD | | Wed Jun 05 1996 12:47 | 13 |
| What did the election achieve?
It removed the arguing about how many and of what party representatives
should sit round the table.
Without it I could see endless wrangles of the type "If SF have 7
people from county X then we should have 8 and the XYZ party should
have none" and so on and so on.
Now they have to wrangle with the real problems and hopefully find a
solution.
Andrew
|
| 1578.34 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Wed Jun 05 1996 13:31 | 19 |
| I have to agree with Barry. If the IRA don't call a ceasefire and talks
happen without Sinn Fein then those talks will be useless. Yet if Sinn
Fein are included in then talks without an IRA ceasefire then the
unionist will walk out...thus the talks will still be useless.
As this is the nearest anyone has been to a solution since the troubles
started then the IRA must be forced into opening the door for Sinn
Fein, ie..reinstate their ceasefire. The two governments have no choice
but to come down hard on the IRA.
What I can't understand is why the IRA can't see the bloody obvious.
They will achieve nothing by continuing their campaign - rather they
will be alienated by the press, public and NI population. Why can't
they be ingenius, why can't they show a willing for peace, or are they
really of the mentality that we often see from certain noters in here?
Oh well, hope springs eternal....
Shaun.
|
| 1578.35 | | NETRIX::"[email protected]" | Mark Holohan | Wed Jun 05 1996 13:38 | 30 |
|
Mike,
>let me ask you what SF should do now ?
Continue to ask that their democratic mandate be honored by the
British government, and ask why all democratic representatives
are not allowed at a "British" peace table.
>If so, what do they propose to do if Paisley's people boycott?
No one can control who shows up after you've given invites to
a party. There is no point in trying. All that is in your
control is to give invites to everyone with a democratic mandate.
To even consider the "what if's", so and so doesn't show, is
ridiculous. It's simple, invite everyone with a democratic
mandate. If you don't show, you don't have a say, period.
> What's the most logical course to take now for SF?
Continue to ask for the International community to put pressure
on the British government, for not allowing all democratic
representatives a seat at the table. The only thing that
moves the British government is economic damage, and International
pressure. Sinn Fein can not control economic damage, but they
can ask for International pressure on the British.
Mark
>
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
|
| 1578.36 | You still here? | NETRIX::"[email protected]" | Mark Holohan | Wed Jun 05 1996 13:50 | 13 |
| > >>The British government has no desire to see peace.
> That is porobably one of the most stupid lines I have ever read!
People who want peace invite their enemies to sit down
at the peace table.
> Overall Mark, i'll give your note about 2/20 for getting you name right
I give you a zero, for porobably and stupid in the same sentence.
Mark
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]
|
| 1578.37 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Wed Jun 05 1996 13:58 | 5 |
| RE: .35
So a ceasefire isn't on your list then? NSTT.
Laurie.
|
| 1578.38 | Yeah, but.... | IAMOK::BARRY | | Wed Jun 05 1996 14:05 | 16 |
| reply to .35
The International community is likely to have far less sympathy and far
less interest in Ulster if the IRA do not call a ceasefire.
As an example, the Loyalist paramilitaries, oftentimes depicted as more
random and sectarian than other parties have won respect by restraining
themselves. On the other hand, Gerry Adams has lost a considerable
amount of his clout here in the US as a result of the London bombings.
Would you agree to that?
How will "continuing" make this better ?
Mike
|
| 1578.39 | | METSYS::THOMPSON | | Wed Jun 05 1996 14:29 | 20 |
|
I think a Cease-fire should not be a pre-condition for talks. It seems absurd
to insist on it. What if they announce a cease-fire to enter the talks
and then end it a month later? What if they handed in their arms and
then bought a fresh lot? A successfull outcome to the talks will end
the need for arms.
I came across an interesting quote the other day [sorry, yes it's an oldie!]
In the run up to the American War of Independence, General Gage demanded
the New Englanders hand over all their weapons. Joseph Warren replied:
"Free men will never willingly surrender the means to protect their liberties"
Perhaps that lesson from history will not be as lost on initial chairman
of the talks as the British Govt..
M
|
| 1578.40 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Wed Jun 05 1996 17:03 | 16 |
| There has been an unofficial cease fire for many weeks now.
I doubt very much that the IRA will officially declare a
cease fire before the talks begin. Like it or not, I think the
IRA are displaying to everyone that they aren't operating on a
British tabletable, nor are they exceedingly interested in
international opinion. By all these preconditions and
political posturing, everyone is boxing themselves in,
and making it once more difficult to find a solution.
It will be interesting, nonetheless, to see how it evolves...
To change the topic a bit - I was curious on why the "nationalists"
received fewer seats than "unionists" (using these terms liberally)
despite the raw percentages of votes. Are these due to political
gerrymandering? Or are there other reasons?
/Geo
|
| 1578.41 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Thu Jun 06 1996 05:46 | 24 |
| .36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>The British government has no desire to see peace.
>> That is porobably one of the most stupid lines I have ever read!
> People who want peace invite their enemies to sit down
at the peace table.
People that want peace don't blow up children and pensioners.
>> Overall Mark, i'll give your note about 2/20 for getting you name
right
> I give you a zero, for porobably and stupid in the same sentence.
Ha Ha! I wish you wouldn't make it so easy for me Mark.
CHARLEY
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| 1578.42 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Thu Jun 06 1996 07:07 | 17 |
| I'm sorry M. Thompson but i totaly disagree with you. You cannot allow
a platform for an active terrorist organisation as such an act would
only justify terrorism as legitimate means of expression....and thus
the eventual breakdown of democratic society.
The quotation you use is misinterpreted as freemen are not being asked
to hand over the means to protect themselves...they will be asked, as
will all paramilitary groups in NI, to hand over the means to
terrorise.
A ceasefire will ensure that Sinn Fein has a place at the table, if
that ceasefire is broken a month later then that is another situation.
The fact that we are so near to a solution has been no mean feat...it
is important that we now take one step at a time and not get sidetracked
by the 'what if's and 'when's.
Shaun.
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| 1578.43 | Sinn Fein is not the IRA | NETRIX::"[email protected]" | Mark Holohan | Fri Jun 07 1996 13:57 | 32 |
| 1578.44 | Get stuffed, Hollowhead | 42344::CBH | Mr. Creosote | Fri Jun 07 1996 14:15 | 10 |
| 1578.46 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Mon Jun 10 1996 06:12 | 26 |
| .43
>Perhaps, but Sinn Fein is not the IRA, and does not control the IRA.
I admire your persistence Mark but I certainly don't admire your
intelligence. Your beloved Mr Adams has, as stated before, admitted that
Sinn Fein is part of the I.R.A.
>Quite frankly, I believe it would be a mistake for the IRA to call a
ceasefire....
Of course, what the f$%& does a few more pensioners and kids matter?
You are very sad Mark.
>Have you ever met Gerry Adams? I have, he is a courageous man of peace.
He is a puppet for the I.R.A., a terrorist organisation that kills
children.
>The British government holds the only key.
Disillusioned is the way I'd describe you Mark. You obviously have no
access to the truth or are so paranoid that you cannot see it.
CHARLEY
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| 1578.47 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Mon Jun 10 1996 06:44 | 72 |
| RE: <<< Note 1578.43 by NETRIX::"[email protected]" "Mark Holohan" >>>
-< Sinn Fein is not the IRA >-
>> > The International community is likely to have far less sympathy and far
>> > less interest in Ulster if the IRA do not call a ceasefire.
>>
>> Perhaps, but Sinn Fein is not the IRA, and does not control the IRA.
>> Sinn Fein is however a democratic party with a large mandate. The
This statement is such palpable nonsense that either you are
irredeemably stupid, or you are yanking our collective chain.
>> British government has no understanding of democracy, especially where
>> it's colonies are concerned.
Again, utter crap. Additionally, does your following statement show an
understanding of democracy? Or does it show a belief in killing,
maiming and the use of violence as a means of acheiving ones aims and
aspirations. You are a pathetic hypocrite.
>> Quite frankly, I believe it would be a mistake for the IRA to call a
>> ceasefire. Remember the last one (it lasted for what, 18 months), and
>> all the British did was use it to delay peace talks. What good does
>> announcing a ceasefire do? On the other hand, every little bit of
>> economic damage that can be done to Britain, helps pressure the
>> British government to leave one of their last colonies.
This statement, now repeated and expanded, shows, without any doubt,
that you are a believer in, and a supporter of terrorism, and of
terrorism as a means of bypassing the democratic process. You make me
sick, and I regard your statments and views as abhorrent, and not
worthy of a civilised human being, much less an employee of this
company. Your remarks are highly offensive, against PP&P, and you
should be fired for them.
>> > On the other hand, Gerry Adams has lost a considerable
>> > amount of his clout here in the US as a result of the London bombings.
>> > Would you agree to that?
>>
>> That would probably depend on who you talk to. I'm sure the British
>> consul would like to think that. Have you ever met Gerry Adams?
>> I have, he is a courageous man of peace.
He is like you, a supporter of terrorism, and using terrorism as a
means of getting his own way. He is a (willing) puppet of the "hard men".
>> > How will "continuing" make this better ?
>>
>> There is only one way forward, and that is peace talks.
True.
>> The British
>> government control the talks, and have decided to not allow all
>> democratic parties with a mandate to attend. The British government
>> holds the only key.
Oh dear. What a fundamental misunderstanding; or is a deliberate
inability to understand the truth? The British and Irish Governments
*ARE UNITED* in their insistence on a ceasefire being called. They are
*FULLY SUPPORTED* in this by the US Government. The truth's a bitch, eh
Holohan? Let me tell you what I think will happen. The IRA, through
their puppet and mouthpiece Gerry Adams, will attempt to enter the
talks this morning, and they will be refused entry. They will do this
in front of the world's cameras, and will cynically and professionally
use it as a propaganda exercise, to garner sympathy from the ignorant,
and to try to embarrass the British and Irish Governments. Then, a day
later, they will call a ceasefire, which said puppet Gerry Adams will
claim is down to him and SF, and the result of "hard bargaining" and
other meaningless tripe. HAHA.
Laurie.
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| 1578.48 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Mon Jun 10 1996 07:48 | 19 |
| Sorry Mark, but your views, appinions, and overall attitude will make
absolutely not one single bit of difference to whatever happens in NI.
Your effect on anything to do with NI is as significant as a tear in
the rain. You have achieved only to sicken and alienate your fellow
working collegues in your futile quest to promote the cause of a people
with whom you have nothing in common bar ancestory. You are that worst
breed of idealist who romanticaly attaches themselves to blind causes so
as to fill the apparent emptyness of their own lives.
As accused before, you give republicanism a bad name. If you so
strongly believe your views then pick up the gun and fight for them,
as you advocate. Yet we know you won't...you don't have the balls to
really fight for what you believe...you're quite happy spouting your
monotaneous clap-trap from afar, safely in the knowledge that it wont
be you, your wife or your kids that'll take the bullets.
In all Mark, you're just a boy.
Shaun.
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| 1578.49 | Ooops..sorry, wrong conference | CHEFS::PANES | sealions on my shirt | Mon Jun 10 1996 09:07 | 13 |
| <<< Note 1578.45 by TERRI::SIMON "Semper in Excernere" >>>
>And all the IRA did was to train new murderers, ship explosives
>onto the mainland, bring another barrett light 50 and a couple of
>russian 50 cal. snipper rifles. The IRA, supported by Sinn Fain,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are these for long range vasectomies?
Stuart
|
| 1578.50 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Mon Jun 10 1996 09:46 | 95 |
| UK News Electronic Telegraph Monday June 10 1996
Issue 402
Sinn Fein leaders split over ceasefire
By Toby Harnden, Ireland Correspondent, and George Jones
=========================================================
TENSIONS within the Sinn Fein leadership over the IRA's reluctance to
declare a new ceasefire were revealed last night by conflicting
statements from Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness on the eve of today's
all-party talks on the future of Northern Ireland.
Mr Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, said that he would continue to
work for a restoration of the ceasefire. Hours earlier Mr McGuinness
said that he would not take on the "burden" of persuading the IRA to
announce a truce to enable Sinn Fein to take part in the talks.
Writing in the Belfast-based Irish News, Mr Adams acknowledged the
"potentially positive" nature of the procedural arrangements for the
talks agreed by London and Dublin.
He said he felt "cheated" that republicans who had worked so hard for
peace were being locked out.
"The IRA has shown a willingness to enhance the search for peace and,
while asserting Sinn Fein's right and rejecting any preconditions upon
our entry into negotiations, I and others in the Sinn Fein leadership
are seeking to create the conditions whereby the potential for the
restoration of the peace process can be realised.
"But this is not a task for Sinn Fein alone. It is particularly the
responsibility of the British Government."
Mr McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator, repeatedly refused to say
during an interview on BBC Television's Breakfast with Frost whether
Sinn Fein would recommend the IRA to restore the ceasefire.
"The responsibility for achieving the ceasefire lies with the British
Government," he said. "It does not lie with Sinn Fein. Therefore we are
not going to take on that burden."
The IRA army council is understood to have rejected a last-minute
ceasefire during a weekend meeting.
All 17 of Sinn Fein's elected representatives intend to try to gain
entry to the talks, which start at Stormont this afternoon. Mr
McGuinness said his party had a mandate to attend the talks,
irrespective of a ceasefire. Sinn Fein's exclusion would be "the
equivalent of 100 British MPs being denied access to Parliament".
Both governments reaffirmed that without a ceasefire Sinn Fein would
not be allowed into the talks - although Dick Spring, the Irish foreign
minister, said that it should be admitted if a truce were declared with
only seconds to spare.
Michael Ancram, the Northern Ireland minister, said that a ceasefire
announcement today might not be enough. "We have to be satisfied that
there has been an unequivocal restoration of the ceasefire of August,
1994," he told BBC TV's On the Record programme.
The start of the talks could also be disrupted by Unionist attempts to
block the appointment of the former American senator George Mitchell as
chairman.
John Major and John Bruton, the Irish prime minister, will address the
opening session, which the two governments have said will be chaired by
Mr Mitchell, President Clinton's envoy.
David Trimble, Ian Paisley and Robert McCartney, the leaders of the
three main Unionist parties, met on Saturday to agree a joint strategy
towards the talks.
They are likely to argue that Mr Mitchell does not command their
confidence and should be replaced.
John Taylor, deputy leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, said: "Mr
Mitchell arrives with considerable American-Irish baggage being a
member of the Democratic Party which is particularly influenced by the
pro-Irish lobby. It's the equivalent of appointing a Serb to preside
over talks on Croatia."
John Hume, leader of the nationalist Social and Democratic Labour
Party, called for a ceasefire, but indicated that it could be weeks
before the IRA decided.
Senior SDLP figures have criticised the links Mr Hume has forged with
Sinn Fein and talks are to be held to review the relationship between
the two parties.
o A 23-year-old man was shot dead in the Turf Lodge district of Belfast
yesterday. The killing is believed to be linked to a feud within the
extreme republican Irish National Liberation Army.
Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc
|
| 1578.51 | | IRNBRU::HOWARD | Lovely Day for a Guinness | Mon Jun 10 1996 09:57 | 5 |
| Well, what's the latest?...Did SF turn up only to be turned away?...
Have the Unionists accepted Mitchell as overall chairman?...
Ray....
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| 1578.52 | | METSYS::BENNETT | Straight no chaser.. | Mon Jun 10 1996 11:26 | 10 |
| Sinn Fein are on the site. They are allowed the use of a room or two,
but are not allowed to attend the sessions. According to the 1pm news
on BBC television, their presence is not a protest (hmm..) but is to
be seen as "awaiting leave to attend".
Ian Paisley decided at the last minute to take his seat at the talks
after saying earlier that he would not because of the American presence
as chair.
John
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| 1578.53 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Mon Jun 10 1996 11:42 | 13 |
| .52 is correct (almost); it only deviates in a small way.
Nutter Paisley didn't exactly say "that he would not [attend] because
of the American presence as chair". He said he objected to George
Mitchell being chairman specifically because he's an Irish American
with (IP believes) pro-Nationalist views, and cited, by way of an
example, the campaigning by said Mr. Mitchell on behalf of Gerry Adams
when he applied for, and was granted, a US Visa. In short, he (and many
Unionists) doubt his impartiality. Early this afternoon, Radio 4 said
that "after meeting Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Paisley agreed to attend the
talks", which is a good sign.
Cheers, Laurie.
|
| 1578.54 | | METSYS::BENNETT | Straight no chaser.. | Mon Jun 10 1996 14:10 | 3 |
| Thanks Laurie. An informed clarification.
jb
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| 1578.55 | | 42344::CBH | Mr. Creosote | Mon Jun 10 1996 16:18 | 7 |
| I find it interesting to find that my note has been set hidden, presumably for
a rather crass personal comment, whereas the previous note, which contains a
*far* more offensive comment, has not.
Chris.
PS I will be escalating this to HR this time.
|
| 1578.56 | | TERRI::SIMON | Semper in Excernere | Tue Jun 11 1996 04:38 | 4 |
| And I thought it was common courtesy to inform the
author of a note the reasons if it was set hidden.
Simon
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| 1578.57 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 11 1996 05:07 | 6 |
| I think it could be about time that we all get together and get this
conference scrutinized. I feel the moderator has completely failed in
his job of 'moderator' and has let certain noters go completely against
P&P.....I've had enough and its time to put a stop to it!
Shaun.
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| 1578.58 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Tue Jun 11 1996 05:57 | 7 |
| To be fair to Mr Darcy he has given everybody a free reign to air their
views. Apart from that I agree with Shaun.
Also I've just had a note set/unseen and I'd be interested to learn why.
CHARLEY
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| 1578.45 | | TERRI::SIMON | Semper in Excernere | Tue Jun 11 1996 06:02 | 33 |
| � Perhaps, but Sinn Fein is not the IRA,
It is the political wing of the IRA. In an inteview
about 8 months ago Adams let this slip.
� I believe it would be a mistake for the IRA to call a ceasefire
So [I believe] you support the bombing of women, children etc.
�every little bit of economic damage...
I suppose that rebuilding the smashed body of a young child
on the NHS is economic damage. I mean it must cost thousands to
re-attach severed limbs of a five year old child.
� all the British did was use it to delay peace talks
And all the IRA did was to train new murderers, ship explosives
onto the mainland, bring another barrett light 50 and a couple of
russian 50 cal. snipper rifles. The IRA, supported by Sinn Fain,
only used the cease fire as a method to rearm. A tactic as bad as
waving a white flag in war and then fireing on the enemy as they
come to you.
�The British government holds the only key.
No they don't. The British government is the door and is
completely locked. The key is IRA's ceasefire. The government
has even dropped the surrender of weapons clause, a mistake
in my humble opinion.
Simon
|
| 1578.59 | quite a lot set hidden | ESSC::KMANNERINGS | | Tue Jun 11 1996 06:29 | 22 |
| It would seem to me that a number of notes in this string have been set
hidden.
Given that the IRA is pursuing a campaign of terror which has lead to
bomb alerts at Digital facilities and attacks on major Digital
customers, it should not be surprising that expressions of support for
this campaign are the subject of censorship. I feel all Digital
employees are entitled to expect that their employer protects them from
such a campaign, and from expressions of support for it, which can only
generate ill-feeling amoung us. I would be in favour of moderation
which is transparent on the question.
Yesterday, according to the radio program Good Morning Ireland, a Sinn
Fein member appearing on RTE refused to condemn the recent murder of a Garda
detective in Adare, Co Limerick. The murder has been widely attributed
to an IRA unit in Munster, and a man is to appear in court this
morning.
There appear to be some splits appearing within SF, as of course such a
position does not help Gerry Adams.
Kevin
|
| 1578.60 | | TERRI::SIMON | Semper in Excernere | Tue Jun 11 1996 06:59 | 9 |
| �it should not be surprising that expressions of support for this
�campaign are the subject of censorship.
One 'expressions of support', several notes correcting the incorrect
comments within that note and commenting against the note and its
author.
Simon
|
| 1578.61 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:11 | 8 |
|
>a Sinn Fein member appearing on RTE refused to condemn the recent murder
>of a Garda detective in Adare, Co Limerick.
Any details surrounding this?
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.62 | clarification | ESSC::KMANNERINGS | | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:14 | 12 |
| Simon,
I was not really commenting on the specific incident, only generally on
the "expressions", which can be found all over the place.
If notes are set hidden, then their authors should be informed why. If
recipients of harassment complain, then they should be informed of how
and why there complaint has been handled as it has. That is what I mean
by transparency. In my limited experience, the moderation of other
conferences is transparent.
Kevin
|
| 1578.63 | | TERRI::SIMON | Semper in Excernere | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:23 | 12 |
| OK Kevin, your note understood.
What I don't understand is that to get a note in here,
that is totally offensive and against P&Ps, hidden
is quite hard. All of a sudden a string of notes
is hidden without a word. I can appreciate the
difficulty George has in a conference such as this
but, as moderator of several conferencies myself, I
would always contact the author of a note giving reasons
and a chance to rectify the note.
Simon
|
| 1578.64 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:46 | 18 |
| Surely it would be better for Digital, the conference and our own
sanity if we got Digital to censor Mark Holohan...or even ban him from
this conference. I hate to advocate such extreme measures but he
doesn't contribute anything positive to this conference. Rather he
alienates and antagonizes his fellow working collegues with his
pro-terrorist rantings.
As much as I appreciate freedom of speech I do not appreciate racism,
and certainly not to the extent that I have witnessed in this
conference so far.
If Sinn Fein cannot enter the peace conference whilst they have not proved to
unevoquially support the Mitchel principles of democracy then Mark
Holohan should not be allowed in this conference untill he has done
likewise.....and that means denouncing violent means, ie NOT SUPPORTING
AN IRA CONTINUATION OF VIOLENCE!!!!
Shaun.
|
| 1578.65 | | ESSC::KMANNERINGS | | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:48 | 83 |
| re .61
The SF'er was a "Vice President." His comment is causing a big hooha.
On the killing itself, here is the latest (sorry about the layout):
from todays Irish Times
Tests show IRA made
bombs left by killers
By Jim Cusack, Security Correspondent
The three incendiary bombs left in stolen cars by the
killers of Det Garda Jerry McCabe were manufactured by the IRA,
forensic tests have shown.
The cassette-type devices are exclusively manufactured by
the IRA and are unlike devices made by other paramilitary
groups or by criminals.
Ballistic examination of the spent bullet cases found at
Adare in the aftermath of Det Garda McCabe's murder has also
confirmed that one of the AK47 assault rifles had been
used in another robbery three years ago in Limerick. This robbery
was also believed to be the work of the IRA.
The Garda manhunt for the killers is concentrated on two
highly dangerous IRA gunmen, who are leading members of the
Munster unit. Garda� have visited their homes and they
have been missing since the weekend.
One of the men is in his 30s and is originally from Co
Tyrone.
He was released from custody in the past six months
despite Garda concern.
The other man is from Dublin but has been living in the
Shannon area and is also regarded as highly dangerous. He
took part in IRA attacks against British military targets
on the Continent in the late 1980s.
Garda� established yesterday that a third suspect was not
in Adare on Friday. A number of other IRA members, including
the leader of the local unit, are under suspicion but
have not yet been linked firmly to the killing.
It now seems clear the garda� established the IRA
involvement in Det McCabe's murder early on Friday after examining
the incendiary bombs and assessment of local intelligence
reports on IRA activity.
There has still been no confirmation by official sources
or the Government, however.
The clearest link to the IRA is probably the source of
the incendiary bombs, which were to have been used to destroy
the two cars used by the robbers but were apparently
abandoned.
These incendiaries are slightly larger than the average
audio cassette case.
The man who perfected the manufacture of these devices -
which caused tens of millions of pounds worth of damage
to commercial property in Northern Ireland and Britain - is
currently serving a jail sentence in Portlaoise Prison.
Many other examples have been captured and examined by Garda
ballistic and forensic experts.
The AK47 assault rifles used by the men who killed Det
Garda McCabe and injured his colleague, Det Garda Ben
O'Sullivan are a weapon commonly, but not exclusively, used by the
IRA.
Meanwhile, two men and three women arrested at the
weekend are expected to be released from custody after
questioning under the Offences Against the State Act.
|
| 1578.66 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Tue Jun 11 1996 08:34 | 124 |
| Sinn Fein barred as Major warns of 'bumps' ahead
From the Electronic Telegraph
JOHN MAJOR warned the people of Ulster last night to accept
that the all-party talks on the future of Northern Ireland would be
"bumpy" and marred by setbacks, as the first day of the negotiations
was marked by high-profile protests and squabbling.
He urged all sides to seize this "historic opportunity" for peace and
to work their way round the setbacks doggedly.
As the talks opened in Belfast, the London and Dublin governments were
attacked by both Unionists and republicans, as Sinn Fein demonstrated
against its exclusion and Unionists resisted the appointment of George
Mitchell, the former US senator, as overall chairman.
When the talks adjourned, the Unionist parties claimed victory over the
fact that Mr Mitchell had still not taken his place at the table. Ian
Paisley, the leader of the hardline Democratic Unionists, threatened to
boycott the talks if Mr Mitchell remained as chairman. During the
morning he led a delegation to meet Mr Mitchell and asked him to "step
aside".
The Unionists also succeeded in securing a debate about the chairman's
role and the talks agenda. Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland
Secretary, took the chair for the first session.
The protracted wrangling over procedure ran counter to the appeals of
Mr Major and John Bruton, the Irish Prime Minister, for the parties to
rise to the spirit of the occasion. Mr Major admitted that the outcome
of negotiations could be delayed to beyond the next election.
The Prime Minister showed his irritation at the "grandstanding" of Sinn
Fein and the more hardline Unionists
He implored those at the talks: "No one should be afraid to compromise.
It would be easy to prevent an agreement in these talks and hard to
forge one. But no one can deny which is the better outcome."
The Prime Minister showed his irritation at the "grandstanding" of Sinn
Fein and the more hardline Unionists. He said: "This is not a media
carnival. These are serious negotiations about the future of Northern
Ireland." During the formal opening of the negotiations he urged
delegates to "put history behind them and look forward to a new
beginning".
Mr Bruton said it was a "grave disappointment" that Sinn Fein was not
present. But the responsibility for the party's absence rested "clearly
on the IRA, who have the capacity to restore unequivocally the
cessation of violence".
Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein president, led 15 of the party's elected
delegates to the gate outside the talks. The protest had been widely
forecast, but still succeeded in capturing the attention of the world's
media.
Martin McGuinness, the chief Sinn Fein negotiator, and another member
of the delegation were allowed inside to meet officials - but only to
be told that they could not enter talks until the IRA declared a
ceasefire.
As Mr Adams stood outside he said: "We're here not to protest but to
assert our right to be part of the inclusive dialogue that is necessary
to build a peace settlement." He said that the 15.5 per cent of the
vote secured by Sinn Fein in the Ulster elections gave it a mandate to
be included.
He warned Sinn Fein that its presence was not necessary for the success
of the talks
Mr Adams said that, although the question of a new ceasefire was
"valid", it was up to the Government to secure it. Senior republican
sources have hinted that, in spite of the public pronouncements of the
Sinn Fein leadership, another ceasefire could be as close as a week
away.
Mr Bruton, who had earlier attended the funeral of Gerry McCabe, 52, an
Irish detective murdered by the IRA on Friday, said that the officer
had been "mercilessly cut down in the prime of life". It would be a
"bitter disappointment to Irish people everywhere" if another ceasefire
was not called.
He warned Sinn Fein that its presence was not necessary for the success
of the talks. The Social and Democratic Labour Party was "more than
capable of representing and putting the case of Northern nationalists".
Included in round-table negotiations for the first time were the
Progressive Unionist Party and the Ulster Democratic Party, both of
which have close links to loyalist paramilitary organisations that have
held their ceasefire.
As had been widely expected, the opening day was largely bogged down in
procedural wrangles and posturings from both sides. At the end of the
session David Trimble, the Ulster Unionist leader, expressed delight
that the governments' proposed agenda "had not moved by one point one".
Robert McCartney, the head of the UK Unionist Party, who joined Mr
Paisley in his meeting with Mr Mitchell, pronounced the outcome a
success. "What happened today was democracy 10, despotic governments
nil," he said.
Although the Unionists kept Mr Mitchell away from the talks yesterday,
the Prime Minister said: "I think at the end of the day they will reach
an agreement and Senator Mitchell, who is a man of integrity, will
chair the talks."
At a press conference he invoked the spirit of Churchill by hailing the
convening of the talks as the "end of the beginning".
If agreement is achieved, a package of constitutional reforms will be
put to the people of Ulster in a referendum before legislation is
proposed. The talks reconvene today.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.67 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Tue Jun 11 1996 12:14 | 7 |
| I've provided an open forum for the exchange of ideas, but
some of these notes on_both_sides_of_the_fence have crossed the
line. Notes that are racist, potentially libelous, have vulgar
language, or are threatening to the safety of our employees will
not be tolerated.
George
|
| 1578.68 | | CHEFS::COOPERT1 | tell mum before you go somewhere | Tue Jun 11 1996 12:27 | 9 |
| I think you'll find that when one certain side crosses the line the
rest of us are bound to voice our outrage at such blantant disregard
for human life and property. Misguided, untrue opinions, the defence of
horrific actions, the encouragment of murder and destruction has no
place in a civilised and democratic society and it has no place in this
conference.
CHARLEY
|
| 1578.69 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Cyclops no more! | Tue Jun 11 1996 12:35 | 3 |
| Well said Charley.
Laurie.
|
| 1578.70 | | BIS1::MENZIES | Resume the Ceasefire!!! | Wed Jun 12 1996 06:44 | 1 |
| Here here...
|