Conference tallis::celt

  If this particular "peace movement" is committed to getting the English
  Government to talk with it's adversaries, then it might help.  Why not
  just skip the post card to Bangor step, and send one to Downing Street,
  asking Major to hold talks immediately?

  A thousand post cards to a couple in Bangor might not do anything, but
  a hundred thousand to John Major might accomplish something.

                              Mark

Last time I looked, Mark, the _BRITISH_ government wasn't going around
blowing people up.

//atp

PS I'd have thought someone with your pro-Celtic prejudices would have
learned the difference between England and the UK long ago

Mark, after you borrowed Mr Adams' `selective condemnation' comment and used it 
several times, I'm surprised at your note.  I expect that these people will 
attempt to convey the message to all parties concerned, not just one.  This 
will obviously have a much greater impact than just concentrating on one of 
the groups involved, particularly since HMG was not the one responsible for 
the latest escalation; or, if you disagree with that, not solely responsible.

Please try to be a little more objective.

Chris.

>PS I'd have thought someone with your pro-Celtic prejudices would have
>learned the difference between England and the UK long ago

not much point using a pro-Celtic prejudice, in that, from my understanding, 
the majority of English people have predomiantly Celtic ancestry anyway.  The 
argument against that is that Celtic generally represents culture rather than 
lineage, in which case you can discount most of Scotland, Wales and Ireland as 
the predominant culture in these seems to be anything but Celtic except for a 
few small pockets.

Chris.

    Holohan,
    
    Once more I invite you, yes or no, please:
    
    Do you condemn the Docklands bombing?
    Do you believe the Docklands bombing was justified?
    
    Laurie.

    Text of article from Irish Times, Tuesday last
    
    Massive support for `peace postcards' 
    
    
    By Paul Cullen 
    
    LIKE so many others, Gavin and Margaret Walker of Bangor, Co Down,
    watched the unravelling of the ceasefire on
    television on Friday with incredulity and despair. But in contrast to
    the majority of us, they decided to do something.
    
    Until yesterday, they were a middle-class couple of no political
    affiliations. Now, with their appeal for one million
    ``postcards for peace'', they have been thrust to the vanguard of the
    peace movement.
    
    The ``No More Violence'' campaign so hastily arranged by the Walkers
    over the weekend struck an instant chord with
    listeners who heard them on RT� and BBC Northern Ireland yesterday. Mr
    Walker says that promises of support have
    flooded in and their target of one million letters or postcards
    opposing violence looks attainable.
    
    ``Seeing the effects of the Canary Wharf bomb, we went through all the
    emotions - disbelief, anger, despair. Then we
    looked at our 15-month-old son Christopher, who was born in peacetime
    and knew only peace until last Friday. We had to
    do something to retrieve that peace for him,'' Mr Walker says.
    
    The couple initially thought of writing to John Major but felt this
    would have little effect. They hit upon the idea of a mass
    write-in campaign as an easy, inexpensive way for ordinary people in
    Ireland and Britain to show their support for peace.
    
    No decision has been made yet as to where the letters will be sent
    after next Friday's deadline. Mr Walker told RT�
    yesterday he planned to deliver them to the doorstep of Sinn F�in in
    Belfast, but he now says he regrets this idea. They may
    now go to the City Hall in Belfast or the Northern Ireland Office
    instead.
    
    Mr Walker, who has participated in peace rallies in the past, says he
    is aware of the chequered history of previous such
    initiatives. ``We're not naive enough to think that the boys will put
    down the guns just by us doing this. But we know that
    each effort for peace amounts to another brick in the wall which will
    block out the terrorism.
    
    ``Everything is there to play for over the next few days. Either it
    will all get unbearable again or the strands of trust that
    have developed between the different communities will come into play.''
    
    As a self-employed businessman and house husband, Mr Walker (37) was at
    home yesterday to field the news media
    enquiries. His wife Margaret (32) works for the Ulster Bank.
    
    Mr Walker believes all sides, including Sinn F�in, should be talking to
    one another to retrieve the peace.
    
    ``It's unacceptable for anyone to be putting up ridiculous barriers at
    this time. After 17 months of peace, with the money it
    has brought in and the jobs it has created, to lose our well-being to
    one crazy act would be terrible.''
    
    Letters to the Walkers' campaign should be addressed to: ``No More
    Violence'', PO Box 4, Bangor BT19 6LU, Co Down.
    Messages can be of any length, but should be sent to arrive before
    Friday.
    
    

    It's a shame someone hasn't given them an E-mail address for responses,
    people like me have no chance to get a postcard there on time, but we
    could Email them.
    
    Laurie.

    There were further peace rallies held yesterday and more are planned:
    
    1000 attended a Rally in derry organised by Derry Trades Council
    
    Several hundred marched in Cork with the lord Mayor, some TD's, and
    religious leaders of different denominations
    
    The Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish congress of Trades Unions
    is organising a major rally for this Friday at 12.30 pm
    
    This is important, it DOES have an effect. 
    
    Let's leave the warmakers behind us.
    
    Kevin

    >let's leave the warmakers behind us<
    
    Couldn't agree more Kev.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Laurie & gang,

> Once more I invite you, yes or no, please:
    
>    Do you condemn the Docklands bombing?
>    Do you believe the Docklands bombing was justified?

   What part of 1549.12 didn't you understand?

   "In answer to your question, I don't think the British should have bombed
   Dublin, and I don't think the Irish Republican Army should bomb London.
   I have family who live and work in both London, and in Dublin.  I don't
   want to see them, or anyone else killed."


                                 Mark

Mark,

>   What part of 1549.12 didn't you understand?

>   "In answer to your question, I don't think the British should have bombed
>   Dublin, and I don't think the Irish Republican Army should bomb London.
>   I have family who live and work in both London, and in Dublin.  I don't
>   want to see them, or anyone else killed."

I'm sure that Laurie etc. can understand 1549.12 without too much trouble, but
unfortunately your statement above answers two completely different questions 
to those that Laurie asked, ie. 

    	Do you think that the British should have bombed Dublin?
and
    	Do you think that Irish Republican Army should bomb London?

Come on. Do us all a favor. Put us out of our misery and answer the 
two original questions.

Al

    Al's correct, I understand you perfectly well. What I want are yes or
    no answers to my questions, not questions you decide to ask yourself.
    Why do you continually refuse to do that? To refresh your memory:
    
    Do you condemn the Docklands bombing?
    Do you believe the Docklands bombing was justified?
    
    Laurie.

    re .12
    
    'ere, seeing as you lot have hijacked my peace movement string my I try
    and help clarify this one, that is to say, explain the republican
    viewpoint?
    
      Do you condemn the Docklands bombing?
      Not unilaterally, no, because it is hypocricsy to condemn one side
    only.
    
        Do you believe the Docklands bombing was justified?
    
    What exactly  do you mean by justified? This is a really difficult
    question. I have written here about the theology of a justified war a
    la Archbishop Ramsey. I think Catholic theology has some differences
    with Ramsey, and at the time Ramsey said the bombing of Bagdad was
    justified Cardinal Hume got upset and contradicted him, mainly 'cos it
    seems  he has green rebel curates in NI who preach the Ramsey version, 
    which gives a yes to your question. So I guess the memebers of the IRA 
    council who took the bombing decision went to mass and holy communion on 
    Sunday with a clear conscience, if they are practicing Catholics. Anyway 
    that was my experiece of an IRA O/C with whom I had long long
    arguments. I suppose the RAF pilots who bombed Bagdad felt reassured by
    Ramsay... 
      
    
    
    The best I have ever read on the question of what is justified terror
    is Leon trotsky's pamphlet, "Their morality and ours." Trotsky ordered
    the Red terror during the civil war, and when to some pains to say why.
    
    His answer to your second question, and mine would of course be no.
    
    Now I have a yes-noer for you Laurie:
    
    Are you sending a peace postcard?
    
    Kevin
     
                                                                       

    Sorry Laurie, I oversaw .7.
    
    I don't think it matters if the cards are late. It looks like their
    sitting room will be full up, and that is the main thing.
    
    Kevin
    
    

                   <<< Note 1552.13 by MKTCRV::KMANNERINGS >>>
                  -< let's just stop the violence, shall we? >-

    
>      Do you condemn the Docklands bombing?
>      Not unilaterally, no, because it is hypocricsy to condemn one side
>    only.
    
 
       Well thats me confused. Surely only one party ( in this instance )
       killed two innocent people, and injured scores of others.

       Can you expand on your statement?


       Stuart

    >   Well thats me confused. Surely only one party ( in this instance )
    >   killed two innocent people, and injured scores of others.
    
    Stuart, the Docklands bombing is but one incident, taken out of
    context in a 400 year on-going conflict - that most of us are
    pushing to end peacefully.
    
    I too condemn the Docklands bombing.
    But I also condemn British intransigence on peace negociations.
    
    George

>    Stuart, the Docklands bombing is but one incident, taken out of
>    context in a 400 year on-going conflict - that most of us are
>    pushing to end peacefully.

I think that much of the history, whilst it should not be forgotten, is pretty 
much an irrelevant distraction to what's happening today.  What went on in 
times past was done by different people with different politics.  Sure, we 
should learn from it, but too many people use it to perpetuate ill feeling and 
further problems.

Chris.

          <<< Note 1552.16 by TALLIS::DARCY "Alpha Migration Tools" >>>

>    >   Well thats me confused. Surely only one party ( in this instance )
>    >   killed two innocent people, and injured scores of others.
    
>    Stuart, the Docklands bombing is but one incident, taken out of
>    context in a 400 year on-going conflict - that most of us are
>    pushing to end peacefully.
    
>    I too condemn the Docklands bombing.
>    But I also condemn British intransigence on peace negociations.
    
     George,

     As I have stated before, we can all harp on about the past, but history
     cannot be altered.  What I find so outrageous about this particular
     incident is that it happened whilst the "peace process" was ongoing.
     I agree that Major is weak, but a statement last night by Blair coupled
     with Mr Bruton's latest speach, suggests that ( quite rightly ), peace
     in Ireland should be above party politics.

     I sincerely hope that the bombing was the act of "loose cannons". I am
     of a mind  that some opinion stated  here ( and through other
     channels), far from embracing the notion of a peace for the peoples
     of Ireland, appear to find every reason in the book to pull the
     scab off a healing wound. 

     Stuart

>I think that much of the history, whilst it should not be forgotten, is pretty 
>much an irrelevant distraction to what's happening today.  What went on in 
>times past was done by different people with different politics.  Sure, we 
>should learn from it, but too many people use it to perpetuate ill feeling and 
>further problems.
    
    The Unionist veto is a very real, a very relevant issue,
    which still exists today in 1996.
    
    Until the British force the Unionists to deal directly
    with their neighbors, I doubt there will be peace.
    
    
    No_misty_eyed_green_fog,
    George

    In case I should be misunderstood, I was only explaining what I understand
    to be the "extreme" Republican view. from that point of view there is a
    war on between Britain and Ireland, in which Ireland is occupied and
    "Quislings" (excuse the anachronism) have consented to the occupation.
    Britain is always quite ruthless in war, see Suez, the Belgrano,
    Bagdad, Dresden etc etc...why shouldn't the IRA be? So for example, the
    Belgrano was subjected to a surprise attack outside the exclusion zone
    sailing away from the Falklands. "We (the IRA) ended the ceasefire at 5pm
    and attacked at 7pm." Two people died. sorry about that. 300 died on
    the Belgrano. 
    
    This may well make you all puke etc, but it is how they think.
    
    Also, they see central London as an economic target, it is an
    unfortunate and regrettable hazard of war that innocent people get killed.
    Bomber Harris was  quite right!
    
    Honestly, I'm not trying to drive you nuts and I'm not taking sides in 
    this only trying to explain. My own view, as I have made quite clear is a 
    different one. 
    
    Certainly it is all a distraction, but that is the way they are and
    they regard those who left the bombs as heroes comparable with Leonard
    Cheshire.
    
    Peace won't come easy, we will have to work at it.
     
    Kevin
    

    > I sincerely hope that the bombing was the act of "loose cannons". I am
    > of a mind  that some opinion stated  here ( and through other
    > channels), far from embracing the notion of a peace for the peoples
    > of Ireland, appear to find every reason in the book to pull the
    > scab off a healing wound. 
    
    Stuart, I don't think the bombing was that of "loose cannons"
    in the IRA by *any* means. As was mentioned in previous notes,
    it was well planned out and voted on by the leadership, probably
    weeks or months in advance, in the event that the negociations
    failed (as seen from the IRA viewpoint). Again, just my read 
    of the event. I don't endorse their actions.
    
    /George

>    The Unionist veto is a very real, a very relevant issue,
>    which still exists today in 1996.
>    
>    Until the British force the Unionists to deal directly
>    with their neighbors, I doubt there will be peace.

the Unionist problem is interesting, and one that I personally can think of no 
solution to.  The Unionists themselves could be more accomodating, as I think 
that they tend to inflame the situation and are generally, to quote myself, `a 
pain in the arse'.  That isn't the issue, however, what does count is that the 
Unionists have a very large amount of support from people in Northern Ireland. 
I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to suggest that this support is misguided, 
because many people there, possibly even the majority (I don't know, so don't 
blast me over this) want to be part of the UK.  The fact that the majority of 
the people of Ireland want NI to be integrated, and that the majority of the 
people in Great Britain would be glad to `be shot of it' for want of a better 
expression is not really as relevant as the opinion of the people who actually 
have to live there.

There are many clever arguments to counter or support this.  Some people claim 
that they are interlopers from Great Britain who should return there if they 
like the place so much.  Others say that the have been there so long, that if 
the former opinion is valid, then the current inhabitants of the USA have 
about as much right over the land they occupy, and should leave.  There are 
loads of other arguments.  Great for debating over, but not very helpful to 
the situation.

Hopefully someone can think of a long term solution that will be acceptable to 
everyone.  I really can't think of how such a solution could possibly be 
formulated, but I sincerely hope that someone else does.

Chris.

    >Stuart, the Docklands bombing is but one incident, taken out of
    context in a 400 year on-going conflict - that most of us are
    pushing to end peacefully.
    
    So, define history then.
    
    a/ The people of U.S.A. are occupying that land illegally.
    
    b/ The Celtic race should return to East of the Alps where they
    originated from.
    
    c/ Ask the Romans to come and live in England.
    
    History is done, finished. You can't change it. Which is why everybody
    involved should get on with their knitting. All this finger pointing is
    bollocks which solves nothing.
    
    
    CHARLEY

>    It's a shame someone hasn't given them an E-mail address for responses,
>    people like me have no chance to get a postcard there on time, but we
>    could Email them.

apparently there is an email address, [email protected], and a web page, 
http://www.internation.co.uk/peace.html (haven't had a chance to look there, 
myself)

The Email address isn't the official address, but apparently Internation will 
pass on all responses.

Chris.

    re .23
    
    The Docklands bombing is also history so let's forget that too and move
    on to a peace settlement.
    
    Eddie.

    I'm talking about history that doesn't repeat itself. 
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Re .26
    
    Oh now I understand.
    
    Hmm... let me see...
    
    England invaded Wales
    England invaded Ireland
    England invaded Scotland
    England invaded France
    England invaded America
    England invaded Canada
    England invaded Africa
    England invaded India
    England invaded Australia
    .
    .
    .
    Ehmm... is that repeating history since it contains the phrase "England
    invaded" or is it non-repeating history because it was applied to
    different countries?
    
    I'm sure your answer will not surprise me.
    
    
    Eddie.

Oh dear, Eddie find another excuse to vent his `England did this, England did 
that' hang ups.  Well, thankyou for that really helpful contribution, I'm sure 
we are all much wiser and better educated for that.

Chris.

    Eddie, of course England invaded a lot of countries....how the hell do
    you think it created the bigest empire in history. But whats your
    point ? Everyone instrumental in the building of that Empire are now
    dead. There is not one person who is alive today that helped build it
    or destroy it (well maybe the latter). How can you still blame england?
    unless of course you believe that the English are inherent conquerers
    and colonists ;^)
    
    Shaun.

    Eddie,
    
    Almost every country has, at some time, invaded another - if one goes
    back far enough. It is only in very recent times that the world has
    reacted to invasions and collectively reppeled those invasions, eg Iraq
    into Kuwait. Invading one's neighbours was the done thing, from Roman
    times, from Viking times through to the creation of the British,
    French, Portugese etc empires. Germany was the last to try on that
    scale.
    
    I really do not see this as a)relevant or b) reprehensible. It is a
    fact of history which will have consequences that have to be dealt with
    today, but to condemn the actions of the past by the standards of today
    is not in the least helpful.
    
    Andrew

    An update on the peace ralles
    
    The Dublin Council of Trade Unions is holding a demonstration tomorrow
    starting at 1pm from College Green.
    
    The ICTU has called for minute's silence at workplaces throughout
    Ireland at 12.30 pm tomorrow, Friday 16. February. The action is being
    taken to "express abhorrence at the return to violence". This will
    coincide with the big rally happening in Belfast tomorrow.
    
    Some 1000 students attended a candlelit peace rally at Queen's University
    Belfast. 
    
    Is there anything happening anywhere outside Ireland?
    
    Kevin

    Chris, I've sent a mail of support to that address; unfortunately it
    bounced. I'll check the web page.
    
    Laurie.

    Ahh, the mail address is [email protected] To mail from inside DEC, use:
    
    vbormc::"[email protected]"
    
    They ask that we send the text:
    
    "No more violence - I wish you peace"
    
    They say:
    
    "This appeal is non-sectarian and implies no position on any political
    issue relating to Ireland. Your support will imply only that you
    support peace rather than violence in the future."
    
    
    
    There is another address, which I gather is the preferred one, and to
    which mails to ftech will be forwarded:
    
    [email protected]
    
    Same text. Unfortunately, this one bounced too, so I sent my mail to
    the blue one.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.
    
    PS. This is being promoted by the  Irish Council Of Churches which is
        organising a peace rally in Belfast on Saturday.
    

Re .28

> I'm sure we are all much wiser and better educated for that.

Chris,
	Thank you for your faith in my ability to educate the "inherent 
conquerors and colonists" in this conference. But alas I fear that some
are way beyond educating. ;-)

Re .29

>    Eddie, of course England invaded a lot of countries....how the hell do
>    you think it created the bigest empire in history. But whats your
>    point ? Everyone instrumental in the building of that Empire are now
>    dead. There is not one person who is alive today that helped build it
>    or destroy it (well maybe the latter). 

Shaun,
	You are of course correct in what you say. The trouble today is 
that they want to hold on to every last vestige of it and most countries 
which have managed to leave it have needed to revert to violent struggle to 
re-attain their freedom and independence.

> How can you still blame england? unless of course you believe that the
> English are inherent conquerers and colonists ;^)

How can you possibly say that about our beloved Nation - the mother of 
democracy!!!! ;-) You better watch what you are saying our they'll be round
to your house with 500 troops to show you what democracy is. :-)
    
Re .30

    Eddie,
    
>    I really do not see this as a)relevant or b) reprehensible. It is a
>    fact of history which will have consequences that have to be dealt with
>    today, but to condemn the actions of the past by the standards of today
>    is not in the least helpful.
    
Andrew,
	Of course you are correct. I was merely responding facetiously to
	Chris and CHARLEY's selective history (which they seem to have 
	gleaned from history books with half of the pages missing).
	It also serves to highlight the extremely selective use of history
	by the anglophiles.

Eddie.
    

    What, and you don't??
    
    
    CHARLEY

>	Of course you are correct. I was merely responding facetiously to
>	Chris and CHARLEY's selective history (which they seem to have 
>	gleaned from history books with half of the pages missing).
>	It also serves to highlight the extremely selective use of history
>	by the anglophiles.

when have I been selective about the my interpretation of history, then?  Do 
tell, I'm all intrigued now.  I assume you *can* back up your claim, are were 
you just attempting to discredit me?

I really don't speak for anyone but myself, but I often feel that I must 
repspond when someone broadbrushes all the British or English.  I think I know 
perfectly well that the rulers or the British or English have done more than 
their fair share of crap things in the past, and wouldn't dream of trying to 
claim that they didn't.  However, England is where I was born, and I'm not so 
insecure that I feel I have to denounce my nationality because of what a few 
historical bigots have accomplished.

Chris.

    The Quaker community in NI ahave issued a stement condemning "verbal"
    violence. They urged all parties in the north to repudiate violence
    including "the damaging effects of words or actions which ignore the
    sensitivities of others, as well as the physical violence of bomb and
    bullet."
    
    Would that apply to this notes conference?
    
    Kevin 

    Without a doubt.
    
    
    CHARLEY

          An Phoblacht/Republican News � Thursday February 15 1996

                       [An Phoblacht/Republican News]

                        TOM poll shows 73% back talks


THE Troops Out Movement carried out an opinion poll on Saturday, 10
February, in the wake of the London Docklands bomb. The poll was planned
well before the end of the cease-fire but campaigners decided that it was
more important than ever to go ahead and find out exactly what people in
Britain thought the government should be doing.

Seventy-three percent of people polled said the British government should
hold all-party peace talks immediately, without preconditions.

Sixty-one percent said Britain should withdraw from Ireland and 64% thought
John Major's recent call for an elected assembly had jeopardised the peace
process.

A spokesperson for the Troops Out Movement said that the poll showed how
removed the government and main opposition parties are from the opinion of
most people in Britain: ``The vast majority of people in Britain want peace
and understand this means talks must begin. They do not want preconditions
to talks and think that John Major is stalling the process and thereby
jeopardising the peace.''

``The Troops Out Movement does not have the financial resources to
commission an `official' opinion poll. However, we have consistently pointed
to dozens of opinion polls over the last 20 years showing majority support
for British withdrawal from Ireland. This poll confirms that view.''

The poll was carried out in six towns and cities in England: London,
Bristol, Brighton, Birmingham, Sheffield and Newcastle.

The total sample polled was 1299: 693 men and 606 women.

People were asked three questions relating to government policy on Ireland.
The three questions and results were:

1. Do you believe the British government should hold all-party peace talks
immediately, without precondition?

Yes: 73%        No: 20%         Don't know: 7%

2. Do you believe that Britain should withdraw from Northern Ireland:

Yes: 61%        No: 22%         Don't know: 17%

3. Do you think that John Major's recent call for an elected assembly could
jeopardise the peace process?

Yes: 64%        No: 14%         Don't know: 22%

People from all age groups from 18 upwards were polled and the answer `yes'
to all three questions came from supporters of the three main political
parties.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Contents Page for this Issue
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   Reply to: An Phoblacht/Republican News

    In a poll by the "troops in" movement, 99.99% said "quoting baised/racist
    half truths will not help the situation."
    
    hth
    
    
    CHARLEY

This `Troops Out Movement' all sounds very nice and groovy, but I've read many 
of the missives posted to the Usenet by one of its members, and she's so 
extreme she makes the SF leadership look positively moderate.  I don't know 
how representative she is of the organisation, but she's full of bluster, and 
is your typical `blame the British for everything' type, and treats the IRA as 
heroic soldiers.  Most disturbing is when someone commented in a less than 
glowing light about `Slim' Bobby Sands, she publically told him to `fuck off'. 
Interesting, coming from one of the people responsible for this survey.

Chris.

> glowing light about `Slim' Bobby Sands, she publically told him to `fuck off'.

  Sounds like she did the right thing.

             Mark

>  Sounds like she did the right thing.

only if she wishes to discredit the organisation she vociferously represents.

Chris.

    There was mass support for the peace rallies in Ireland on Friday and
    over the weekend.
    
    The leader of the Irish Labour Party Mr Dick Spring has asked everyone
    to wear a white ribbon as a sign of support for the peace movement.
    
    The post cards for peace initiative have recieved over 100000 replies.
    
    A minute of silence was held on Friday throughout Ireland. I am
    pleased to report that following an initiative by another colleague
    here in ESSC a number of us observed the minute of silence. Phones were
    logged off and work stopped.
    
    Kevin  

    Any chance of sending me a ribbon as Belgium is quite removed from
    Irish Affairs ?
    
    Shaun.

    Shaun,
    
    
    they are very simple. You just take about 3 and a half inches of white
    ribbon, fold it as a Greek  alpha, put a pin in the point where the
    ribbon crosses and wear it by turning the alpha 90 degrees clockwise,
    that is with the round part at 12 noon and the x at 6 pm.
    
    I got some ribbon last night, but I'll be making mine tonight, so I'm
    guessing the dimensions.
    
    Kevin

    mmmMMMM.....sounds like Blue Peter to me, do you have any you prepared
    earlier ;^)
    
    I'm not much of a creative type but i'll give it a go.
    
    Shaun.