Conference tallis::celt

                  Britain and Ireland clash over peace

RTna 11/12/95 11:13 AM


Copyright 1995 Reuters Ltd.

    By Andrew Hill

     DUBLIN, Ireland (Reuter) - Britain and Ireland clashed from opposite
ends of the world Sunday over how  to rescue an increasingly frayed Northern
Ireland peace process from diplomatic stalemate and the threat of  renewed
violence.

     British Prime Minister John Major rejected criticism of the London
government's handling of the stalemate  by his partner in the quest for
peace, Irish Prime Minister John Bruton.

     Major accused Sinn Fein, the political arm of the Irish Republican Army
(IRA), of foiling the peace  process but Bruton said London's insistence on
disarming the IRA was the cause of failure to convene  all-party peace talks.

     The sparring underlined growing impatience in Dublin over the standstill
in the process three weeks  before the arrival of President Clinton on what
was supposed to be a visit to celebrate 15 months of peace.

     The process was further jolted Friday when police foiled an attempt by
Republican hardliners to take two  huge car bombs into Northern Ireland to
attack British troops and the veneer of peace which has reigned for  15
months.

     It was the most serious security incident since the IRA and its
Protestant Loyalist foes declared  cease-fires 15 months ago to get their
political spokesmen to the conference table to negotiate a lasting  Northern
Ireland settlement.

     But a visibly angry Major made clear in remarks at a Commonwealth summit
in New Zealand that the  London government would not budge from its
insistence that the IRA disarm to win a seat at the conference  table.

     He was responding to a London dinner speech by Bruton in which the
usually diplomatic Irish leader took  off his gloves and said it was time for
Britain to uncouple the two issues and move toward all-party talks to  save
the peace process.

     Bruton, who has tried to maintain a united front with Britain over the
peace process, said it was time  London "took the next step for peace" and
agreed to leave the issue of disarmament to an international  panel.

     He said he had written to Major with proposals to end the impasse by
holding preliminary talks on  all-party negotiations while the panel tried to
create the trust required for all guerrillas to start handing over  their
weapons.

     "I recognize they (his proposals) may create difficulties for some
because they are not preferred  solutions. But unless we compromise from
those preferred positions we will not get round the table at all,"  Bruton
said.

     The idea of an international panel chaired by former U.S. senator George
Mitchell has been mooted for  months but has foundered because Britain says
guerrilla arms must be handed over to guarantee that there  will be no return
to violence ever.

     "The problem above all lies with Sinn Fein and Sinn Fein's complete
reluctance to tackle the question,  even with an international body, of how
their arsenal of weapons and explosives are going to be taken out  of
commission," Major said.

     "The blockage is theirs and no weasel words to the contrary will change
that hard reality."

        Martin McGuinness, chief strategist of Sinn Fein in its quest to end
British
rule of Northern Ireland, said  in weekend remarks that only Clinton could
now rescue the peace process.

     He told reporters that there was no way the IRA would disarm ahead of
all-party talks and insisted that  Britain convene them to maintain the
momentum of peace launched by the cease-fires 15 months ago.   REUTER

    Could someone please confirm whether or not it was Republican Sinn Fein
    who claimed responsibility for the bombs as reports are skitty.
    
    Republican Sinn Fein was set up by Ruairi O'Bradaigh, Daithi O'Connaill and 
    a few others when they walked out of the Sinn Fein Annual Conference in
    1986 after Sinn Fein voted to drop the traditional Republican doctrine of
    refusing to recognise or accept seats in the Dublin Parliament.
    
    Shaun.

    re: .-1
    
    The Irish National Republican Army, a group I've never heard of,
    have been fingered by most commentators. Sinn F�in Poblachtach
    also say they've never heard of them, and that they weren't 
    involved in the incident.
     

    Actually the INRA used to part of Sinn Fein.
    Apparently.
    
    CHARLEY

    I recall listening to a speech by Ruairi O'Bradaigh at Milltown Malbay
    in the early eighties before the split with provisional Sinn Fein. He
    made it clear in the speech that he was expecting a split on the issue of 
    abstension.
    
    My main recollection of the speech is that he compared the IRA to the
    French resistance in WW2. 
    
    There was a report yesterday of a Republican SF meeting in which he
    said that the bomb has not been taken out of Irish politics and calling
    in effect for the resumption of the armed struggle. 
    
    He has no significant political support at present, but Gerry Adams
    must be worried about splits in provisional Sinn Fein if the peace
    talks don't go his way/start soon. 
    
    On the other hand the Unionists are not likely to conceed enough to
    satisfy Adams and the loyalist terrorists are threatening a campaign in
    Dublin if there is any movement.
    
    So I don't see much grounds for optimism about the peace process. The
    only way out of this is to cross the sectarian divide, fight for class
    unity and leave the O'Bradaighs and the like behind. 
    
    Kevin                                       

    If it is really the British Government which is preventing progress as
    claimed why don't all the other parties take the moral high ground, and
    indeed the actual high ground and meet without the British Government?
    
    Suppose Sinn Fein said "we'll be in the meeting suite at hotel X from
    December 1st with the real intent to find a lasting solution..." how
    long would it be before anyone else turned up and progress commenced?
    
    It takes two sides to create an impasse but only one to remove it.
    
    Andrew

  Andrew,
   A peaceful resolution can't be found, unless all sides involved in the
  conflict sit down together.  How could a decision be made on British troop
  removal, when the British aren't at the table?
   I only hope now, that President Clinton can put enough pressure on the
  British government to force them to allow all democratically elected
  representatives to sit down at the peace table immediately.

                    Mark

    Why should the British sit at the table when the I.R.A. and other
    factions blatantly refuse to decommission arms??
    
    
    CHARLEY

    CHARLEY,   
    
    I've never seen IRA statements where they blatantly refuse to discuss
    decommissioning of arms. They have stated that decommission of arms
    be discussed in the full context of negociating the future status of
    the province. One could easily take a complete opposite approach and
    say why should the IRA sit with the British when a non-indigenous
    army is occupying their country? Taking such extreme positions does
    nothing to help the peace process. What is needed is compromise and
    that includes compromise from both sides. Something like - the British
    agree to fully negociate the status of NI with all parties - and the
    IRA agree to a phased decommissioning of all weapons via a third party.
    Pick the Swedes - everyone likes the Swedes. Right now however, the
    British are blocking the *progress* of the peace process with this
    arms issue, and probably quite knowingly for whatever reasons. It's
    their call.
    
    /George

    It is in my oppinion that the IRA will not relinquish their arms this
    side of the peace table...regardless of the right and wrongs of such a
    stance. So I feel there exists two scenarios:
    
    One, the British Government decide to allow all party talks to proceed
    with the decomissioning of arms as the first item of the agenda.
    
    Two, the British Government continues to insist on the decommisioning of
    arms as a pre-condition to any peace seat.
    
    The latter scenario will in my oppinion eventually result in a resumption
    of the violence that has already stained the last 25 odd years, albeit
    more bloody and wide spread - (loyalist paramilitaries have already
    promised a campaign of terror in Dublin if such a resumption occurs.)
    
    I'm forced therefore to accept that the British Government, rightly or
    wrongly, must adopt the first scenario and enter talks now but with the
    decommsioning of arms heading the agenda. If, however, the talks break
    down and violence resumes (and in my oppinion the first critical point
    will be the British Military presence in NI) then the paramilitary
    organisations of NI will loose total credibilty and for a long time to
    come.
    
    Shaun.

    .9
    
    So it's o.k. for the British army to show some good faith by removing
    hundreds of troops, but the terrorists cannot decommission *any* of
    their arms then?
    
    
    CHARLEY

    RE: .1
    
    Charley,
    I would agree with you on that one! However, strangely enough, the
    British reported the 600 troop withdrawal as simply a redeployment,
    and not as a peace gesture. I don't know exactly why it was stated
    in this manner. But given that the IRA ceasefire has held for quite
    some time, I believe that a troop withdrawal was certainly deserved.
    Wearing berets instead of helmets and not pointing guns at civilians
    do not have the same meaningful impact a troop withdrawal, however
    well intended. I would commend the British on the withdrawal if it
    was meant as a show of good faith and hope that it and arms
    decommissioning progresses.
    
    Though I think the IRA are more interested in entering negociations with
    the British rather than troop withdrawal, even though they are part of
    the same package. I mean let's look at it. Each side wants peace (I
    think) and the question is what will be compromised by each side. The
    British have more to lose than the IRA. The IRA expect nothing and may
    well receive nothing.                
    
    George

    The British Government has offered talks if the arms are
    decommissioned; the IRA refuses talks unless that phrase is dropped.
    Why is one side wrong and the other not?
    
    Laurie.

    Absolutely, but in the best interests of both sides it is my opinion
    that the I.R.A. should decommission *some* of their arms, good faith
    etc.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Here is the joint proposal from Hume/Adams. Unfortunately the British still
  reject these proposals.



                               Joint proposals (Hume/Adams)

  1. The two governments have agreed to launch the preparatory phase for
     all-party talks in the peace process, which will not later than 30
     November, lead into substantive political negotiations, in round table
     format, to reach an agreed political settlement.

  2. The two governments have also agreed to ask George Mitchel to head up
     an international body, to ascertain and advise the two governments on
     the commitment to peaceful and democratic methods of all political
     parties which will be participating in the round-table negotiations,
     and consequently of their commitment to the removal of all weapons from
     Irish politics.

     The international body will also be asked to ascertain and advise on
     how the question of arms, now [thankfully] silenced, can be finally and
     satisfactorily settled.

     George Mitchel will be assisted by two other figures of international
     standing likely to inspire widespread confidence.

  3. Accordingly, the international body will have the remit of reporting,
     by [.......] (sic) on whether it has established that a clear
     commitment exists on the part of the respective political parties to an
     agreed political settlement, achieved through democratic negotiations,
     and to the satisfactory resolution of the question of arms.

  4. The international body will report to the two governments who will
     undertake to consider any recommendations it makes, and to give them
     due weight.

                

 

    I feel inclined to suggest here that HMG has been less that 
    even handed in laying greater emphasis on its demand for
    decommissioning of IRA arms than it has on those held by
    the Unionist paramilitaries.
    
    In fairness, and in as far as that is possible, having been
    brought up in "Norn Iron", Ian Paisley has recently made explicit
    his appreciation of the need for Unionists paramilitaries to 
    decommission their arms.
    
    There is a great, but so far, little discussed need to address
    the problem of organised crime -- extortion, racketeering, brigandry
    and drug-running. Both sides have their own "Mafia-like" organisations.
    Both sides beat up petty criminals in ghetto neighbourhoods, and
    present that kind of activity as "policing" when the reality is that
    it is punishment for enfringement on what they see as their "commercial
    interests".
    
    Unemployment in N.I. averages 19.3%. In border areas, like Newry, 
    South Armagh and on round to Derry, 30% is (or was) more like the 
    reality. And yet, on my twice- or thrice-yearly visits, I often see
    people who've been on the "brew" for years driving around in brand
    new cars. Now, I'd be disinclined to say that that was the result
    of an approved withdrawal from the local Allied Irish or whatever.
    
    I think a greater deal of honesty on all sides would be a good idea.
    
    John
    

>    Absolutely, but in the best interests of both sides it is my opinion
>    that the I.R.A. should decommission *some* of their arms, good faith
>    etc.
    
    
>    CHARLEY 

  All the weapons whould be removed from Irish politics.  The considerable 
  and major amount of these being held by the British forces. Why should one
  side in the conflict disarm, as a precondition to sitting down at the
  peace table?  Would you expect the British forces to "disarm" before
  Britain was allowed to sit down at the peace table?

>     The British Government has offered talks if the arms are
>   decommissioned; the IRA refuses talks unless that phrase is dropped.
>   Why is one side wrong and the other not?
    
  Because there should be no preconditions to allowing every one to sit
  down at the peace table.  

                          Mark

    >The British Government has offered talks if the arms are
    >decommissioned; the IRA refuses talks unless that phrase is dropped.
    >Why is one side wrong and the other not?
    
    Neither side is right or wrong - they are simply operating
    from their conceived point of strengths. Put the shoe on
    the other foot, what if the IRA said no negociations until
    the 15,000 British military completely leave the province?
    
    It's an odd situation. Unlike other conflicts in the world
    (Gulf War, the Falklands, Vietnam) the NI conflict has no
    winners, only losers. Britain is acting like the victor,
    when in reality there is no victor. The whole NI situation
    is one of accomodation. They key point is to keep the
    dialog open, which isn't happening now.
    
    /G

    I think that all the replies following my suggestion that the IRA sit
    down with those who will talk go to prove why progress is not
    happening. All sides have entrenched views which they are not prepared
    to move from. That saddens me.
    
    As someone said there is no victor to impose a settlement, which is
    unlike the "end of a war" situation so everyone has to go to the table
    and find a settlement position. What does any person do when faced with
    an impasse? They find ways around. Sure the British Government and
    maybe the Unionists would not be there on day one, but if talks were
    started they would come. 
    
    I suspect that one reason no one wants to enter talks is that no one
    really has a lasting answer. I certainly don't. 
    
    Andrew

    I disagree that Britain is acting like a victor. It is acting exactly
    like a legally constituted, internationally recognised, government;
    which is what it is. The IRA is an illegal organisation dealing in
    indiscriminate murder and terrorism in contravention of International
    and National law. The British Government has every right to make any
    demands it likes. Whether it should or not is another issue.
    
    The British Government does not "reject the proposals", it says that it
    will not discuss them until all terrorist organisations, of which the
    IRA is only one, lay down their illegally-held arms, which is a 
    completely different thing.
    
    Using emotive untruths like the British Government "rejects the
    proposals" when it has said something entirely different is not in the
    least helpful to the finding of a peaceful solution.  Certain people
    seem to live in some kind of green dream world, and conveniently
    forget, for good or ill, the *fact* that the British Government is the
    legally-constituted, internationally-recognised government of Northern
    Ireland, and as long as it operates within International and National
    law, can do what the hell it likes, including deploying armed troops
    within its jurisdiction. The IRA, however, is a rag-tag of bullies,
    murderers and terrorists who have no legal mandate whatsoever, and
    operate on the backs (and wallets) of emotional, bigotted romantics
    with little or no grasp on the social reality of the situation, and no
    regard for the political realities involved, nor of the need to please
    all parties, not just the IRA. These people, spouting propaganda and
    rhetoric, and offering succour to murderers, are creating and extending
    the problem, not helping to solve it.
    
    For there to be peace in Ireland, the British need to be able to
    withdraw with dignity, the Loyalists and the Republicans need to feel
    that their future is secure and guaranteed, their aspirations met.
    Given that all three of these positions are more-or-less mutually
    exclusive, it will be extremely difficult to resolve it. Taking the
    stance that the IRA (ergo the Republicans) should get everything it
    wants and sod the rest, is ridiculous, and I have nothing but contempt
    for those who publicly espouse that view, and support the attainment of
    that position by any means.
    
    Laurie.

    *APPLAUSE*
    
    Mark, theoretically the British army *have* decommissioned some of
    their arms, why the terrorist organisations can't....well that just smells 
    of hypocrisy.
               
    
    CHARLEY

    History aside....what Laurie has said is essentially correct. The IRA
    cannot expect the decommissioning of Paramilitary weapons to be
    considered alongside the removal of British Government forces from NI
    and to do so is extreamly idealistic as well as impractical and naive.
    
    It should be remembered that British Forces were called into the recent
    troubles at the request of the old Stormont government in response to
    its failure to contain the near civil war in Belfast in 69. It should
    also be noted that had the British Government failed to deploy its
    forces then the nationalist communities would have suffered a great deal
    more at the hands of the loyalist machine....it was for this reason
    that the troops were welcomed with open arms by these communities.
    
    Over the last 25 years that welcome has change into bitter contempt, a
    change not helped by the British Government's attitude to the
    Republican movement and the nationalist communities as a whole.
    
    Yet I have to be realistic. The IRA nearly wiped out the elected
    governement of a democratic western democracy, this in turn persuaded
    the British Government to introduce draconian legislation which casts
    doubt on the quality of British democracy as a whole. The fact that the
    IRA is largely supported in the Nationlist communities does not help
    ease the tension between those communities and the troops on the
    street.
    
    Although I personaly believe in an eventual United Ireland, I cannot
    and will not accept the loss of even one single life in order to obtain
    that goal. It must therefore be achieved by peacefull means.
    
    NI has now endured 15 months of peace yet paramilitaries from both
    sides of the divide are still armed. It is the duty of all paramilitary
    parties to renounce violence and therefore renounce their weapons which
    they no longer need. Unfortunately the one paramilitary party which
    holds the Ace will not lay down their arms as they fully believe that
    such an act will be considered as surrender...and they will never
    surrender. The opposing paramilitary parties (UVF, UFF etc) will thus
    retain their arms.
    
    If peace is to be secured once and for all in NI then it will have to
    be the British Government who will trump its diplomacy and make the
    dead-lock braking move of starting the talks but with 'Paramilitary
    Disarmanent' as the first item on the agenda.
    
    Failure to 'call the terrorists bluff' in this way is likely to result
    in yet another 25 years of death, suffering and hardship for both
    England and NI.
    
    Shaun.   

    >    least helpful to the finding of a peaceful solution.  Certain people
    >seem to live in some kind of green dream world, and conveniently
    >forget, for good or ill, the *fact* that the British Government is the
    >legally-constituted, internationally-recognised government of Northern
    >Ireland, and as long as it operates within International and National
    >law, can do what the hell it likes, including deploying armed troops
    
    Yes, and certain people conveniently forget certain events,
    like the British General Election of 1918. You are stretching
    things quite a bit by using the phrase "legally-constituted".
    
    The British do need to be able to withdraw with dignity from
    Ireland. And I do believe that Loyalist & Republican aspirations
    can be met. But that only happens via dialogue and compromise.
              
    Sinn Fein can talk all they want with Dublin or by themselves,
    but without the British presence, and their pressure on loyalists
    for accomodation, nothing will happen.
    
    I personally believe that the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries
    should hand over all its arms immediately and that the British
    military should withdraw immediately. But making conditions on
    these events, that from a practical standpoint won't be met,
    is unfortunate, especially if it damages the *progress* of the
    peace process. Everyone involved has to swallow a bit of pride.
    
    Maybe some progress will come out of the Clinton visit.
    I don't know, though it doesn't look very promising at
    the moment...
    
    George

RE:          <<< Note 1527.23 by TALLIS::DARCY "Alpha Migration Tools" >>>

�    I personally believe that the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries
�    should hand over all its arms immediately and that the British
�    military should withdraw immediately. But making conditions on
�    these events, that from a practical standpoint won't be met,
�    is unfortunate, especially if it damages the *progress* of the
�    peace process. Everyone involved has to swallow a bit of pride.
    
    We're at one on that, George.
    
    Laurie.

> I personally believe that the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries
> should hand over all its arms immediately and that the British
> military should withdraw immediately. But making conditions on
> these events, that from a practical standpoint won't be met,
> is unfortunate, especially if it damages the *progress* of the
> peace process. Everyone involved has to swallow a bit of pride.

  George,
    If the Irish Republican Army unilaterally disarm, what's to stop
  the British forces returning the situation to the status quo.  Even
  if the British withdrew, they could be back in under a half hour,
  and heavily armed.  It would take a lot more time to rearm the IRA.
  That's why the peace talks must come first. 

> peace process. Everyone involved has to swallow a bit of pride.

  Give up your means of defense, before a peaceful resolution has been
  agreed upon, and you'd be swallowing a lot more than just your pride.

                        Mark

    Well Mark, the lads in Oklahoma have proven that you don't
    need access to high-tech materials to make a bomb - you only
    need fertilizer and a little fuel oil - and you don't
    even need the oil, as it is used merely as an accelerant.
    And the IRA could buy back weapons they needed. They
    are not short for cash.
    
    In any event I don't think it would be even possible for
    a total decommissioning of IRA weapons. The bulk of IRA
    weapons are hiding in bunkers in the Republic. And you won't
    find anyone in the IRA leadership that knows their locations,
    and I question whether or not the IRA leadership would be able
    to fully control their stockpiles given the fact that reportedly
    many in the IRA are vehemently against the peace process. Though
    it would be a huge political "win" for the IRA if they were to
    decommission "some" of their arms. It would make the British
    appear even more intransigent.
    
    I mean really, if there is peace, as there is now, what are
    the weapons needed for? Let's look at it another way, I don't
    think the British are ultimately going to reneg on the peace
    process. They may take time their sweet time about it, but they
    won't return NI to the "old" status quo. If that happens that
    they do, then the IRA conflict will go on until the Nationalists
    become a majority - probably 25 years. I don't think the British
    want that, especially not for London in this new expanded EC.
    Nor do the Irish want another 25 years of war. Better they put
    the security expenses towards education and high-tech training
    programs. And nor do the Irish Americans want another 25 years
    of war. We've all had enough of it.
                                
    /George

    Mark,
    
    I wonder what's your position on Mr Major's concemnation of the vicious
    and brutal punishment beatings meted out by paramilitaries on both
    sides of the NI divide.  Do you think that the IRA is doing the right
    thing by beating up those who disagree with it or commit some
    misdemeanour, or do you agree with the UK Prime Minister?
    
    //alan
    

    Alan, he'll either refuse to answer that, or ignore it. If you get any
    acknowledgement at all, it'll be to tell you to address your question
    to the IRA. What you won't get is either a straight answer, or a
    statement of opinion. what you may get is a focus on groups other than
    the IRA, despite your making it clear you were referring to all
    parties.
    
    Incidentally, in a note a few back the use of the phrase "return to the
    status quo", and the words around it in justification for refusing to
    disarm has all the hallmarks of someone justifying the use of those
    arms. Why else should they be retained? I find the phrase "means of
    defense[sic]" interesting. Blowing up innocent women and children in
    shopping malls on the UK mainland is a very interesting defensive
    mechanism. Clearly in parts of the US, 'defence' has a different
    meaning to the one I grew up with.
    
    I see that the second cache of explosives and arms in a week, has been
    found just across the border. That must help the peace process no
    end... Yes, I can see now that the fears of the UK government are
    competely unjustified. Err...
    
    Laurie.

    Last night the I.R.A. ambushed a 19 year old lad and FIVE of them give him
    a hiding with hammers.
    
    They then kidnapped a man near the border, he is still missing......
    
    Lets face the facts lads, some of the extremeist members of the
    nationalist organisationS do not want peace, they can't afford to...they
    get too much from drug and protection money.
    
                             
    CHARLEY

    re .28
    
    well I think it is spelled defense in American English, so I guess we
    should accept that here, we wouldn't want any anti-US-American bigotry
    in this notes file now would we?
    
    On the question of 'decommissioning', I think this is part of
    another problem. Whatever you think about John Major's politics, you
    would have to see him as a shrewd operator, witness how he dumped his
    right wing in the leadership contest. Let us assume we got as far as
    all-party talks next month on the basis of some kind of fudge. What
    will happen at those talks?  Basically I think that the British want
    out of NI and are prepared to make some consitutional compromises
    towards Irish Nationalism, with joint sovereignty, recognition of Irish
    citizenship and some sort of democratically elected 32 county body.
    Unionists would remain UK citizens sending MPs to Westminster and
    participating in a powersharing arangement for regional government in
    NI. That would satisfy a lot of nationalists and unionists, one would
    hope, but there will be some extremists on the edge who will want to
    take up the terror again. So what Major wants to know is, can he trust
    the IRA not to resume the armed struggle? How will the Republican
    movement split, how will the Loyalist movement split, between those who
    accept the settlement and those who don't?  Obviously after the
    settlement there will be a hugh effort to smash the remaining terror
    groups. 
    
    Also there is the political problem of Unionist intransigence.
    What will happen if the majority in Westminster is so thin that they
    have a decisive role in a confidence vote? The right will make another
    attempt at Major's leadership and thw whole lot could collapse again.
    
    So at the moment he is testing the water for what will be the situation
    in the future anyway, and he takes the view that if it is going to
    collapse now then it will for sure when the tricky bits down the road
    have to be negotiated.
    
    I don't see any grounds for optimism, but I suppose anything is better
    than what we had.
    
    Kevin  
        

    Laurie said (.28):
    >I find the phrase "means of
    >defense[sic]" interesting. Blowing up innocent women and children in
    >shopping malls on the UK mainland is a very interesting defensive
    >mechanism. Clearly in parts of the US, 'defence' has a different
    >meaning to the one I grew up with.
    
    I don't think so, Laurie. Wasn't it British 'defence' forces 
    and the British Ministry of 'Defence' who carried out the Bloody
    Sunday massacres?
    
    Let's begin the process of making peace by acknowledging 
    that there was fault on all sides.
    

    RE: .30
    
    WRT defen[c/s]e. Yes, it's American with an S, but I used [sic] so that
    people would know that I didn't spell it that way. No suggestion of
    anti-American bias.
    
    RE: .31
    
    I think *most* people in here, including me, have admitted and
    acknowledged the faults of all sides...
    
    Laurie.

    I'll give Mark a chance to answer.  Meanwhile, this is from the Press
    Association URL, taken without permission.  It's from today's headlines
    at 2pm GMT. 
    
    http://www.pa.press.net/news/headlines.html
    
    A teenager beaten and abducted early today by masked gunmen claiming to
    be from the IRA was still missing nearly 12 hours later despite a
    widepread Police search.
    
    regards,
    //alan

 Alan,

>    I wonder what's your position on Mr Major's concemnation of the vicious
>    and brutal punishment beatings meted out by paramilitaries on both
>    sides of the NI divide.

     I think Mr Major is hypocritical for supporting a sectarian police
     force that can not be trusted by the Nationalist community to
     do the proper job of policemen/women.  The RUC have a terrible human
     rights record with regards to Irish Nationalist.

>    Do you think that the IRA is doing the right
>    thing by beating up those who disagree with it or commit some
>    misdemeanour, or do you agree with the UK Prime Minister?

     I don't like either approach.  I think the RUC needs to be disbanded,
     and a new police force that is trusted by all, put in place.  
     Unfortunately until that time, you'll find the community taking the
     job of "policing" into it's own hands.  I'm not saying I like that
     approach, just that it's the reality of a situation where the 
     official paramilitary police are a major part of the problem in the
     community.

                           Mark



          

    RE: .34
    
    Your remark about "the community taking policing into its own hands"
    is innacurate. Having been brought up in Newry, Co. Down in a
    predominantly Republican estate, I can assure you that most of the
    people in not just that estate, but in most of the others around the 
    town do not give, and have not given either the Stickies or the
    Provies or any other bunch of looting, shooting profit-driven thugs
    the right to assume the role of policing the area.
    
    I'll bet you a pound for your penny that the "boys" took that action
    because they see the youth as having over stepped the mark by indulging 
    in a bit of petty "free-market enterprise" for himself, whether that be
    burglary, nickels and dimes drug dealing or other "anti-social"
    behaviour, as they often call it.
    
    If you have any ground-level experience of communities in the North
    that would contradict that, I would, with respect, be interested in
    reading it.
    
    John
    
    
    
     

    Mark,
    
    Criticising the RUC for their inability to fairly police both
    Nationalist and Loyalist communities and then trying to justify IRA 
    "punishment beatings" as a method of "policing" is, to use your words,
    hypocritical!
    
    Shaun. 

>    Your remark about "the community taking policing into its own hands"
>  is innacurate. Having been brought up in Newry, Co. Down in a
>  predominantly Republican estate, I can assure you that most of the
>  people in not just that estate, but in most of the others around the 
>  town do not give, and have not given either the Stickies or the
>  Provies or any other bunch of looting, shooting profit-driven thugs
>  the right to assume the role of policing the area.

  John,

   "looting, shooting profit-driven"?  I guess I've missed all the Irish
   Republican Army soldiers driving around in their Mercedes.

   Let's see, the official police are a sectarian organization, that has
   been routinely condemned by human rights groups.  The Nationalist community
   knows better than to trust them, or deal with them.  Now you have a
   drug-dealer who gets beaten up by members of the community.

   I wouldn't call this an ideal situation, but I'd bet there are a lot
   of folks who would say that the drug-dealer got what he deserved.
   FYI, this is not a justification for the situation, this is just a
   statement on it.  The real issue is one of a sectarian police force
   that needs to be disbanded, and then replaced by true policemen/women.

>  Criticising the RUC for their inability to fairly police both
>  Nationalist and Loyalist communities 
  
   Shaun,
     Does this "fairly policing" that you refer to embody torture, collusion,
   and murder by a sectarian paramilitary police force?  Have you ever
   read an Amnesty International human rights report on north east Ireland?

                       Mark

    Seen as you mention it Mark, AI report:-
    
    "AI opposes hostage taking; torture or ill-treatment (whether
    systematic beatings or violent acts, such as "knee capping", resulting
    in permanent maiming); or threatening with death or deliberately
    killing civilians, captives or those who have been incapacitated. It
    does so irrespective of whether the perpetrators are Republican or
    Loyalist."
    and ends
    "AI continues to urge the leadership of armed political groups to take
    steps to ensure thta their members:
    	* don't torture
    	* don't kill prisoners
    	* don't kill civilians
    	* don't take hostages"
    
    Seems good, reasonable advice to me.
    
    Andrew

    Mark,
    
    If you are going to quote me then please do it in context. My original
    quote was as follows:
    
    �Criticising the RUC for their inability to fairly police both
    �Nationalist and Loyalist communities and then trying to justify IRA
    �"punishment beatings" as a method of "policing" is, to use your words,
    �hypocritical!
    
    As everyone can now see, I didn't imply that the RUC were in anyway
    a fair police force. What I did imply however is that you cannot
    criticise the RUC for their unfair policing and then justify
    "punishment beatings"...also criticised by Amnesty International.... as
    an alternative. To coin an old adage..."Two wrongs don't make a right".
    
    Helpfully, and somewhat sick of having to correct you,
    
    Shaun.

    Mark,
    
    Can you cite evidence that "the community" supports the IRA &
    "Loyalist" punishment beatings?
    
    I rather suspect that "the community" supports it in the same way as
    "the community" supported protection rackets in Chicago of the 1930s.
    
    regards,
    //alan

 re. .38

 Andrew,
   I absolutely agree.  That's why I said, it wasn't a justification for
 the situation, just a statement on it.  AI has also pointed out that the
 worst offenses have been from the British forces.  These include collusion,
 shoot-to-kill, torture, etc.  This is why the real issue, one of a sectarian
 paramilitary police force (the RUC), must be addressed first.


 re. .40
 Alan,
>     Can you cite evidence that "the community" supports the IRA &
>   "Loyalist" punishment beatings? 

  Nope, at least not in here.  Just call it an intuition, that there might
  be some members of the community who don't feel bad for a drug-dealer
  who gets beaten up by other members of the community.  Like I said before,
  this isn't a justification for this type of action, just an understanding
  of why some might support it.

  The real issue is one of a "police force" that is sectarian in nature and
  can not be trusted by the Nationalist community because of their appalling
  human rights record.  This is the problem. Unfortunately members of the
  community taking up the job of "policing" is the reaction. 
 

                             Mark

    Mark,
    
    Lets look at this again shall we. The IRA have pursued a tactic of
    destabilising law and order in NI...
    
    "The second main strand in the Provisionals' compaign of violence
    consists principally of bomb attacks on the government security and
    economic targets with the intention of so destabilizing the community
    that law and order, as enforced by the existing (British) authorities,
    completely breaks down..." Northen ireland since 1968, by Paul Arthur &
    Keith Jeffery - Institute of Contemporary British History.
    
    The IRA's intention to create havoc with regards to law and order is
    reinforced by the fact that, up to the end of 1987, 249 RUC policeman &
    woman had been killed by the Provisionals.
    
    Yet, you say that the RUC is a sectarian policeforce which the
    Nationalist Community cannot trust. Although I accept it was heavily
    sectarian pre 1972 I can also accept that it has endevoured to change.
    This view is shared by a large portion of the Nationalist community...
    An oppinion poll taken for the Belfast Telegraph reported that 47 per cent
    of catholics believed that the police were performing their duties
    fairly. This in spite of the fact that each and every RUC officer knows
    that they are a constant target from Extreme Nationalists from the same
    community.
    
    You say that the RUC needs to be non-sectarian yet you defend the IRA
    when they encourage sectarianism by constantly targeting the RUC.
    
    You say that the Nationalist community cannot trust the RUC yet there is
    no proof of this.
    
    You say yoy believe that the Nationalist community prefers to be
    policed by the IRA yet you have no proof of this.
    
    I think you should sit down and have a long think about this.
    
    Shaun.

  Shaun,
   We can also look at it this way.  From the Amnesty International Human
  Rights report (United Kingdom, Political Killings in Northern Ireland).
  Between 1969 and November 1993, about 350 people were acknowledged to have
  been killed by members of the security forces.  About half of the 350 were
  unarmed.  Most of those killed came from the Catholic community.

   How about the collusion between Loyalist gunmen, and the RUC, documented
  on pages 25-34?  Why can Loyalist gunment gain unfettered access to and
  from crime scenes?  Why do RUC photomontages of suspected Republican's
  end up in Loyalist hands? Why does the RUC collect surveillance info
  on suspected Republican's or democratic politicians who support the  
  Nationalist agenda, and then turn over that info to the Loyalist death
  squads?  Why does the RUC "dissapear" just before an attack on a betting
  shop in a Catholic neighborhood (1993, 100 yards from an RUC station).
  Why does the RUC dissapear just before a grenade attack against Gerry
  Adam's wife and son (June 1993), in an area where Nationalist can't even
  move without being stopped by the RUC or Army?

>     An opinion poll taken for the Belfast Telegraph reported that 47 per cent
>  of catholics believed that the police were performing their duties
>  fairly.

  Does that leave 53 percent that don't trust them?  In any event, I'll hand
  out copies of the AI (Feb 1994 report: EUR 45/01/94), to the 47 per cent
  of Catholics that you say do trust the RUC, and then you can retake the poll.

>     You say that the Nationalist community cannot trust the RUC yet there is
>   no proof of this.

  Even your own poll which you haven't specified where it was taken, or 
  what questions were exactly asked, paints 53 percent as not trusting them.
  
    
> You say yoy believe that the Nationalist community prefers to be
>  policed by the IRA yet you have no proof of this.

  I never said this.  I believe that the Nationalist community would probably
  prefer a non-sectarian police force, that didn't collude with Loyalist
  death squads.  This means the RUC must be disbanded and a new police
  force created.

                        Mark


  

>   We can also look at it this way.  From the Amnesty International Human
>  Rights report (United Kingdom, Political Killings in Northern Ireland).
>  Between 1969 and November 1993, about 350 people were acknowledged to have
>  been killed by members of the security forces.
 
Would you please also give the figures for people killed other than by members
of the security forces?

>  Does that leave 53 percent that don't trust them?  In any event, I'll hand
>  out copies of the AI (Feb 1994 report: EUR 45/01/94), to the 47 per cent
>  of Catholics that you say do trust the RUC, and then you can retake the poll.

From 3,000 miles away you know the true situation whereas the locsl populus
does not.  They must be pretty thick, those Catholics. 

>  Even your own poll which you haven't specified where it was taken, or 
>  what questions were exactly asked, paints 53 percent as not trusting them.
  
You don't have enough information to say that.   

Dave

    More specifically Mark, can you give the number of innocent civilians
    killed by republican extremists in that time span???
    
    I don't think you can or at least don't want to.
    
    Btw. If you feel that strongly about the situation, why don't you come
    over and live in Ireland, instead of dishing out your purile,
    hypocritical rantings from across an ocean about a subject, that time and 
    time again, you have proved you know little or nothing about.
                                                   
    
    CHARLEY

    The only source I have on me gives the following statistics...
    
    Deaths caused by the Violence in NI (1969-1987)
    
    Year    RUC     Army    UDR     Civilians       Total
    
    1969     1       -       -       12              13
    1970     2       -       -       23              25
    1971    11       43      5      115             174
    1972    17      103     26      321             467
    1973    13       58      8      171             250
    1974    15       28      7      166             216
    1975    11       14      6      216             247
    1976    23       14     15      245             297
    1977    14       15     14       69             112
    1978    10       14      7       50              81
    1979    14       38     10       51             113
    1980     9        8      9       50              76
    1981    21       10     13       54              98
    1982    12       21      7       57              97
    1983    18        5     10       44              77
    1984     8        9     10       37              64
    1985    23        2      4       24              53
    1986    12        4      8       37              61
    1987    15        3      7       41              66
    
    Also...400 IRA killed and countless others blown up by their own
    explosions.
    
    I'll try and improve opon these with other sources tonight.
    
    Shaun

    re .45
    
    CHARLEY,
    
    I think Mark has been quite to the point in this thread. He should be
    respected for it and he is entitled to his opinions wherever he lives.
    You are out of order in my book. 
    
    Swapping statistics won't get us very far.
    
    About 18 months ago I travelled through two 'security' checkpoints on
    the way to Omagh and on to Letterkenny. Since then I would say that I
    would not trust the RUC, the specials (whatever they are called
    nowadays) or the Royal Irish Regiment or the BARMY for a
    minute. The whole point of the exercise was to intimidate and bully me,
    and it was a hugh security risk as the light was failing and we had no
    idea who the blazes was stopping us.  There can be no doubt in my mind
    that the methods of the security forces have played a major role in
    causing the troubles and if there is going to be peace there will have
    to be radical changes.
    
    Kevin
    
    The Unionists won't give an inch on this though so it is another
    massive barrier for the all party talks to cross.  

    I forgot to mention it. About a fortnight after they stopped us, one of
    the Royal Irish Regiment was put on trial for murder.  Yet it was clear
    to me that any effort to reclaim the most elemetary civil rights during
    the stop and search operation would have been met with heavy aggro. 

> Would you please also give the figures for people killed other than by members
> of the security forces?

  Why?  Would this give you a newfound confidence in the British security  
  forces?  Would it justify why half of the 350 people killed by the British
  security forces were unarmed?

> From 3,000 miles away you know the true situation whereas the locsl populus
> does not.  They must be pretty thick, those Catholics.

  Nope, I'm only telling you what an independent human rights organization
  has reported. If you have evidence disputing this Amnesty International
  report, please provide it.  By the way, I find your attempt at sarcasm
  that links "thick" and "Catholic" together offensive.

> Btw. If you feel that strongly about the situation, why don't you come
> over and live in Ireland , instead of dishing out your purile,
> hypocritical rantings from across an ocean about a subject, that time and 
> time again, you have proved you know little or nothing about. 

  Ireland is a lovely country.  Are you suggesting that since I show a concern
  for human rights violations by the British in the north east corner of the
  country, that I must now move there? To what end?

  Do I also have to move to South Africa because I believed apartheid was wrong?

                        Mark

    The "North East of the Country" is Northern Ireland and is part of
    Great Britain, and the large majority of the people living there wish
    it to remain so.
    
    
    Don't know much do you???
    
    
    CHARLEY

Actually it's your note .43 that implies that Catholics are thick, not me.

    Not to split hairs Charlie, but Northern Ireland is not part of
    Great Britain. While geographically part of the island of Ireland,
    it is politically a part of the United Kingdom.
    
    But given the development of the Anglo-Irish agreement, should the
    identity of [NI] include reference to its political relationship with
    the Irish Republic?
    
    I was never happy with the term "Northern Ireland". The Republic is
    more North.
    
    /George

                      <<< Note 1527.49 by GYRO::HOLOHAN >>>



>> Would you please also give the figures for people killed other than by members
>> of the security forces?

>  Why?  Would this give you a newfound confidence in the British security  
>  forces?  Would it justify why half of the 350 people killed by the British
>  security forces were unarmed?


    Of course it wouldn't justify any of the deaths. But it might put the
    figures in some sort of perspective. We are after all trying to 
    pursue a well balanced, constructive discussion...aren't we?

    Stuart

>  Why?  Would this give you a newfound confidence in the British security  
>  forces?  Would it justify why half of the 350 people killed by the British
>  security forces were unarmed?

.53 is right on the money. I asked the question in order to put the figure 
of 350 into the overall context. So as I'm sure you wouldn't want to be 
accused of providing biased information, would you please answer. 

>  Nope, I'm only telling you what an independent human rights organization
>  has reported. If you have evidence disputing this Amnesty International
>  report, please provide it.  By the way, I find your attempt at sarcasm
>  that links "thick" and "Catholic" together offensive.

I don't disbelieve what you say is in the report. I made the comment because 
I found condescending the assumption that these people are ignorant and 
uninformed and need someone like you to wave an AI report under their nose 
in order to come to the correct decision. In my opinion they aren't that stupid.

Dave

> .53 is right on the money. I asked the question in order to put the figure 
> of 350 into the overall context. So as I'm sure you wouldn't want to be 
> accused of providing biased information, would you please answer. 

  What overall context?  I'm talking about people being murdered by the
  state "security forces".  I'd say even one was unacceptable.  I'm pointing
  out a major issue here, one where the British security forces,
  and the Loyalist death squads both believe they have a common enemy, the
  Irish men and woman who are nationalists.  I'm pointing out that human
  rights organizations have said that the British security forces and the
  Loyalist death squads work together and collude with one another.  This
  is important because it shows that the British are not impartial "peace
  keepers" holding back the "warring Irish" as they would like the world
  to believe.

                                 Mark

    These "human rights organisations", where and how do they get their
    data?
    
    Laurie.

>  What overall context?  I'm talking about people being murdered by the
>  state "security forces".  I'd say even one was unacceptable.  I'm pointing
 
When you quoted AI you stated 350 killed. Now it's 350 murdered. 
So which is it?  And while 350 is not a low number, it is small compared to the
total number killed during the troubles. So which organisation has killed, no
murdered, the most people? And why the title 'British security forces are the 
problem?' One aspect of the problem, maybe, but by no means the whole problem.

Dave

re .55

So Mark, you are only worried about the "murders" committed by 
the "Loyalist Death Squads" and the Army. Other murders committed
don't count?

Stuart

> These "human rights organisations", where and how do they get their
> data?

 A variety of sources.  Sometimes via independent inquiries and investigations.
 Some information is from existing reports (like BBC documentaries, Irish
 News polls or reports etc.)  Field investigaters questioning witnesses to
 events.  Public access to existing legal records.  Court information from
 the European Commission on Human rights.  On the scene photographs of things
 like the posting of security intelligence files on Belfast street walls.
 Some information is from London based British Irish Rights Watch, Helsinki
 Watch Report's, Lawyers Committee for Human Rights.  Letter's from John Stevens
 to British Irish Rights Watch etc, etc.

                Mark

    Dave, Mark in the past has ignored many requests like yours, worming
    his way out of saying anything that is detrimental to the Terrorist
    propaganda that he preaches.
    
    
    
    
    CHARLEY

>    The "North East of the Country" is Northern Ireland and is part of
>    Great Britain, and the large majority of the people living there wish
>    it to remain so.

IF that is so, then why does the Irish Constitution lay claim to it?
It is equally valid to say it is a part of Ireland.

Mark

    
    
 

    If I recall correctly, the Irish Constitution is being amended to
    remove that clause.
    
    Laurie.

    The Republic of Ireland's Constitution lays claim to it since De Valera
    (sp?) added the clause in a new constitution created *after* partition
    (circa 1937 or 1947... I forget the dates).
    
    Perhapps someone else can be more helpfull ?
    
    Shaun.

    My local amateur musical club has a claim in its constitution to
    California.
    
    That doesn't make the claim valid.
    
    Unless I'm much mistaken, the world counts NI as being part of the UK
    
    //atp

UK = United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Dave

    re .62
    Bunreacht na h�ireann does indeed have a constitutional
    claim to NI. This can only be amended by a referendum of
    the people of the Republic. No such referendum is before
    the Irish people. No such amendment has yet been proposed,
    though it's not impossible that one day it will.
    
    The constitutional claim of the Republic of Ireland to
    the territory of the island of Ireland is not one which
    the Republic has ever chosen to put before any international
    court, nor has the British government, for its part, chosen
    to test the validity of the claim before an international
    court. However, I think the contest would last longer
    and be less predictable than Mr. Potter's music club's
    trials to substantiate its claim to California.
    
    

    >The constitutional claim of the Republic of Ireland to
    >the territory of the island of Ireland is not one which
    >the Republic has ever chosen to put before any international
    >court,
    
    Has the republic's government every said why?  (I'm curious)
    
    >nor has the British government, for its part, chosen
    >to test the validity of the claim before an international
    >court.
    
    Why dignify the claim?
    
    >However, I think the contest would last longer
    >and be less predictable than Mr. Potter's music club's
    >trials to substantiate its claim to California.
    
    Quite possibly.  My point was simply that a claim means nothing by
    itself.
    
    regards,
    //alan

re: .62 and .66

Now that you mention it, I think there have
been some proposals to remove
those articles but obviously none have
been officially proposed.

re: Which claim needs dignifying

Even in British Law Ireland has always been regarded as
a Unitary entity. It's only comparitively recently (~60 yrs) that
that has been questioned.

Why don't the Irish Govt. question this?

Well they do, that's why it's in the constitution.
They probably don't make too much fuss over it because they are
the inheritors of Eire - the dominion that accepted partition.
When the hostages were held in Lebanon, the Republic represented
itself as the legitimate Govt. of one of the Hostages

Why don't the British Govt. accept this?

To some extent they do, if they didn't there would be no point to the current
peace process. Also Ulster has never been fully integrated into the
English political system, with separate political parties, separate laws, etc.
Perhaps the most unfortunate expression of this were the exclusion orders
served on a number of people

Mark
.

    More interesting news, the I.R.A. calls decommissioning of weapons
    "ludicrous" now.
    
    And this is after all the good work of the last 10 days or so.
    
    Everybody has shown good faith except the I.R.A. Shame.
    
    True colours indeed.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Charley,
    
    David Trimble asked the loyalist paramils to hand in a token amount of
    arms as a gesture of good will and they also refused. This is all just
    posturing before the talks-about-talks-about-talks. In my opinion all
    sides are doing it and we can expect more of the same before any
    progress is made....
    
    Ray....

    Well, in that case the so called "peace and freedom fighters" are the
    ones stopping it from happening.
    
    
    CHARLEY$sad

    Interesting article in the Daily Mail on Sunday.
    
    It reports that Gerry Adams has received death threats from the I.R.A.
    
    Well, well, well....
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Well, if it was in the "Daily Mail on Sunday", it must be
    true... bastion of unbiased journalistic excellence, truth
    and decency that it is.
    
    John

    Well done John, you have managed to construct an utterly unpredictable
    note.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    not.

    The I.R.A. have assassinated two people so far this week.
    
    One on Monday.
    
    One on Tuesday.
    
    Both were Catholics.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Hello Charley,
    
    We're all adults.. we all read the news or watch TV. So tell us
    something new. If you've ever lived in Northern Ireland (or whatever
    you wish to call it) you'd know that both the IRA and the UDA are
    into power and wealth, brigandry, extortion, racketeering and the 
    rest.
    
    Organised crime is nothing new to most countries in the world.
    Organised criminals extend and protect their own interests in
    generally criminal ways. The more sophisticated of them tend to
    nurture a facade of respectability. For example, the Crays did 
    exactly that in London during the 60's. These days, you have a 
    government run by the Tories..
    
    I think the 'boys' on both sides these days are more into 'unauthorised
    withdrawals' from other peoples' bank accounts.
    
    Sincerely,
    
    John
    

    Ahhhhhh.....the Krays...those were the days.....
    
    
    Them were the gentlemen of murder they was, always shook your hand
    before thay killed you....cont p94...
    
    
    CHARLEY

>    The I.R.A. have assassinated two people so far this week.   
>    One on Monday.   
>    One on Tuesday.
    
I must have missed the news that had the IRA claim on it, 
can you supply more details?

M
    

  He can't because there is no IRA claim on it, only a British propoganda
  machine "spin" on the murders.

  The organization that killed the drug dealers calls itself 
  "Direct Action Against Drugs".

  This of course does not make the killings right.  I don't think drug dealers
  who peddle to children should be killed, they should be arrested and tried
  by the police.  Unfortunately we have a situation where the RUC, an 
  internationally condemned paramilitary police force, can not be trusted by
  the communicty they patrol.  That's probably why you see this kind of
  "vigilante" action.  The RUC needs to be disbanded, and a new, non-sectarian
  force put in it's place.

                            Mark

    Sorry Mark....but that was just so funny!
    
    Shaun

================================================================================
Note 7.4254     News from the Wires or The First Draft of History.  4254 of 4258
IJSAPL::ANDERSON "Sat by the firewall getting warm." 69 lines  21-DEC-1995 07:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AP 20 Dec 95 21:44 EST V0573
 
    Copyright 1995 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
    No Cease-Fire Offers From IRA

    BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) -- The killings of two Catholic men this
    week -- widely believed to be the work of the IRA -- have cast a shadow
    over peacemaking efforts. 

    The killings demonstrate why the outlawed group doesn't want to start
    disarming -- the issue that's stalled the whole peace process. 

    Northern Ireland security minister Sir John Wheeler declared that the
    IRA was still killing. 

    Asked if the IRA was behind the killings, he told Channel 4 News on
    Wednesday: "Yes, it is. There's a military cease-fire but there is not
    a standing down of the terrorist gangs. ... 

    "They remain fully armed, they remain active and ... they are trying to
    control elements of the nationalist Catholic community," he said. 

    Added Steve McBride of the Alliance Party, which draws support from
    both Protestants and Catholics: 

    "It's just three weeks since President Clinton's visit, and the
    euphoria and very good atmosphere in Belfast at that time are gone." 

    Referring to the "clearly organized terrorist attacks," he said, "We
    thought we'd seen the end of this." 

    The IRA's "punishments" enforce obedience on its turf. This deters
    locals' cooperation with the mostly Protestant police and keeps the
    IRA's financial and political interests secure. 

    Police say the IRA's money-making rackets in Catholic parts of Northern
    Ireland and in the south -- robberies, clubs, taxis, video piracy,
    protection, welfare fraud and, most controversially, drugs -- net the
    organization more than $6 million annually. 

    Through intimidation and occasional "executions," the IRA keeps at bay
    what Belfast people jokingly call the city's "ordinary decent
    criminals," and can be confident that few Catholic civilians will risk
    testifying against the IRA. 

    After the IRA killed Belfast's top drug dealer, Mickey Mooney, in
    April, an IRA "hit list" naming a dozen other alleged dealers was
    circulated. Some of those named told reporters they previously had
    cooperated with IRA members n splitting drug-money proceeds, but now
    the IRA wanted more control. 

    Two on that list have been gunned down: Tony Kane, 29, in September,
    and Paul Devine, 35, two weeks ago. 

    On Monday night, gunmen fatally shot Francis Collins, 40. He had once
    been imprisoned as an IRA member, but police said after his parole he
    turned to criminal rackets. 

    Tuesday night's victim, Johnston, was on bail after being charged with
    drug-related offenses. 

    The IRA stopped its 24-year campaign of violence against British rule
    on Sept. 1, 1994. It called its cease-fire "a complete cessation of
    military operations" -- leaving open the option to attack opponents
    within its own power bases. 

    The IRA is blamed for more than 150 nonlethal beatings since the
    cease-fire.

    .79
    
    If you're going to carry on like a stuck record Mark then so am I. 
    
    
    I suggest you read note .45 again because it's true.
    
    
    CHARLEY

re .81 

Shaun,

I suspect that you'll find that An Phlobacht has proven that Reuters
is hand in glove with the UK franchised murderous organisations, which
operate under the banner of the British Army and the RUC, and is the 
official propaganda machine of her Majesty's Government.

Merry Christmas to everyone and I sincerely hope that those who 
want peace on that beautiful island achieve it, and that the sad
agitators who have got nothing better to do than pull the scab off
the peace process, find another cause to fill their pathetic,
hateful lives.


Stuart

    You're quite right Stuart....I personaly find the pages of An Phlobacht far
    more informative and accurate than those bastions of Big Brother such
    as Reuters, Associated Press and The Beano. Why even the milk man has a
    walkie talkie and the post man was muttering to himself the other day so
    he's obviously wired and working for the Hidden State.....I might just
    take it opon myself to join one of those nice militias which seem to be
    popping up all over america at the moment - freedom fro the opressed
    and all that....and all that.....and all that
    
    Shaun$Watch_Out_They're_all_around_us

The Electronic Telegraph  Thursday 7 December 1995  Home News

Punishment beatings increase after ceasefire

By Richard Savill, Irish Correspondent

PUNISHMENT beatings carried out by republican and loyalist squads in
Northern Ireland continue to rise alarmingly despite last year's ceasefires.

A total of 223 people were beaten up in the 14 months following the
ceasefires, 148 of them by republican groups and 75 by loyalists, the
Northern Ireland Office said.

This compared with 45 beatings in the 14 months before the ceasefires, 37
of them attributed to loyalists and eight to republicans. There were also an
additional 158 punishment shootings - 95 by loyalists and 63 by republicans
- in the pre-ceasefire period.

The figures, published in a written reply in the House of Lords by Lady
Miller, on behalf of Northern Ireland ministers, also show that sectarian
arson attacks have more than doubled since the ceasefires.

In the 14 months since the ceasefires, there were 137 such attacks; there had
been 65 similar attacks before the ceasefire. 

Then, the punishment gangs shot their victims in the knees and sometimes
in the ankles and elbows as well. In the past 14 months they have used iron
bars, hammers and baseball bats. Doctors report that the injuries from
beatings are often more serious than pistol wounds.

Community workers believe that a rise in drug taking may be a factor in the
increase. Some victims have been accused of drug dealing.

There is also concern that the punishment squads may be resorting to the
use of guns again. The suspected "kneecapping" this week of a man in an
alleyway off the loyalist Shankill Road in Belfast is being investigated. No
organisation has said it was responsible.

Chris McGimpsey, an Ulster Unionist councillor in the area, said: "It
appears to have been a punishment shooting although nobody has been able
to make clear yet whether it was paramilitaries. If it is paramilitaries then
obviously that is creating a degree of concern because it is an escalation of
the punishment attacks."

In Roman Catholic west Belfast, a man was shot twice in the arm last
weekend as he sat in his mother's home. He said he had been singled out by
the extreme republican INLA terror group because of a personality clash
with their leader. He was now considering leaving the province.

Nancy Gracey, spokeswoman for the Belfast-based Families Against
Intimidation and Terror, said up to 300 people were living outside Northern
Ireland against their will.

John White, of the Ulster Democratic Party, said people had been going to
the paramilitaries for justice for 25 years "and it is going to take quite a bit to
eradicate it altogether".

Joe Austin, a Belfast Sinn Fein councillor, said punishment beatings were
"symptomatic" of the lack of confidence in the Royal Ulster Constabulary in
nationalist areas.

British and Irish ministers plan to hold talks in London tomorrow to review
progress in the search for a political settlement in Northern Ireland.

The meeting between Sir Patrick Mayhew, Northern Ireland Secretary, and
Dick Spring, Irish Foreign Minister, takes place 10 days after London and
Dublin agreed their twin-track initiative.

Ministers have written to the leaders of Northern Ireland's political parties
inviting them to begin preparatory discussions, ahead of full negotiations.
David Trimble, the Ulster Unionist Party leader, and Ian Paisley, leader of
the Democratic Unionists, have rejected talks under the proposed
twin-track arrangement.

Mr Trimble is seeking a meeting with Mr Major to press further his plan for
an elected assembly, which is opposed by the nationalist Social Democratic
and Labour Party and Sinn Fein.

In the Dail yesterday, John Bruton, the Irish Prime Minister, urged all
parties to co-operate with the international commission on the arms issue.

Mr Bruton, who has urged an "open-minded approach" to the assembly
plan, added: "We have agreed that we will consider constructively any
practical suggestions that could help to bring all parties into negotiations."

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 
    

The Electronic Telegraph  Friday 27 October 1995  The Front Page


IRA accused of breaking ceasefire after gun gang attacks girl of 16

By Richard Savill and Philip Johnston

THE IRA was accused yesterday of breaching its ceasefire after a girl of 16
said she was dragged at gunpoint from her home by a gang who tied her to a
lamp post, slashed her hair and covered her in blue gloss paint.

Denise Clarkin, who lives with her family on the nationalist Twinbrook
estate on the outskirts of west Belfast, said that the gang put a gun in her
mouth and threatened her.

One member of the suspected IRA "punishment" squad fired a blank round
at her father, Brian, as he struggled with them in the hallway, the family
said.

Friends said Miss Clarkin was the victim of mistaken identity and that the
intended target was her sister, Lucy, who lives elsewhere.

The attack provoked wide condemnation and one nationalist SDLP
councillor urged the Government to "slow down" talks with Sinn Fein until
such beatings were halted.

In the Commons Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland Secretary,
condemned the attack.

Sir John Wheeler, the Northern Ireland security minister, said there had
been 218 so-called punishment beatings since the IRA ceasefire last
September - 133 by republican groups and 85 by loyalists.

"There is no case for this tide of violence in Northern Ireland," he said.

Hugh Lewsley, who represents Twinbrook on Lisburn council, said the use of
guns was a serious breach of the ceasefire and he voiced concern that the
IRA saw itself as a "policing agent" in some nationalist areas.

After visiting Miss Clarkin he said the "barbaric and inhuman" attack had
left her "traumatised". He said: "I have a 16-year-old daughter and her hair
is her pride and joy. This girl is in a state of shock. She is totally innocent.
They dragged her about 25 yards round the corner and tied her to a lamp
post.

"They slashed of her pony tail and I mean slashed - it has left a patch at the
back of her head. They then poured paint over her."

Recalling the attack, Miss Clarkin said the gang, their faces hidden by Celtic
FC scarves, burst into her terraced home at 8.30pm on Wednesday after she
answered the door.

"One stuck a gun in my mouth and shouted, 'Get away from the door or I'll
blow your brains out'. They started dragging me down the street. I was
screaming and kicked one of them and he fell to the ground. They tied me to
the lamp post and cut my hair.

"By that time daddy and mummy and some of the neighbours were running
down the street and one of the gang shouted, 'Quick, pour the paint over
her'."

Mr Lewsley said Twinbrook estate had suffered more beatings that any other
area, with at least six attacks in eight weeks.

"Pressure must be brought to bear on Sinn Fein. Unless these squads are
taken off the streets the process with Sinn Fein should be slowed down
dramatically," he said.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 
    

The Electronic Telegraph  Wednesday 20 December 1995  Home News

Sinn Fien challenged over IRA murders

By Richard Savill, Irish Correspondent

SINN FEIN has been challenged to condemn the murder of a man shot dead
in front of his wife in a north Belfast fish and chip shop.

Before holding talks with Gerry Adams, Sinn Fein president yesterday, Sir
Patrick Mayew, the Northern Ireland Secretary, made a statement
highlighting recent killings in Belfast which security sources have linked to
the IRA.

"I call on those genuinely committed to peaceful methods to condemn these
murders unreservedly and to co-operate with the RUC," he said.

Francis Collins, 40, a father-of-five, was shot by two gunmen in the
republican New Lodge area on Monday night. He was hit three times in the
chest and legs and died in Mater Hospital.

A local resident said that the killers shouted "Up the IRA" as they ran off.

Mr Collins, a former IRA prisoner, was suspected of involvement in recent
criminal activity, including minor links to the drugs trade.

The Northern Ireland Office is under pressure from Unionists to declare
such murders as breaches of the ceasefire. Mr Collins was the fourth
suspected drug dealer allegedly killed by the IRA since the ceasefire.

Unionists cite the killings as demonstrating a need for decommissioning
before Sinn Fein can be allowed into all-party talks.

Asked about the killing as he arrived for the talks, Mr Adams said his party
did not condone such actions.

"All of these killings are a dreadful tragedy for the families involved," he
said.

"I have heard lots of speculation about it but I think at another level it
underpins the need for a democratisation of the situation and for a proper
and acceptable policing service."

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 
    

The Electronic Telegraph  Monday 18 December 1995  Home News

Sinn Fein leaders insist there is 'no hope' of arms surrender before talks

By Richard Savill, Irish Correspondent

SINN FEIN leaders will today tell the international disarmament body that
there is "not the remotest possibility" of IRA weapons being handed over
before any political settlement in Northern Ireland.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness will be at Dublin Castle to present a
submission to the three-man body under the chairmanship of George
Mitchell, the former American senator.

They will urge them to remove Britain's pre-condition over weapons before
Sinn Fein can enter all-party talks on Northern Ireland's political future.

Britain believes that a start to IRA disarmament is the only way to generate
sufficient confidence among Unionists to bring them to the negotiating
table.

It has indicated that it will look at any fresh proposals the international body
comes up with but it says it will not be tied to them.

Sinn Fein will further anger the Government by showing a video tape
alleging collusion between the security forces and loyalist gangs. It will also
ask the panel to seek confidential reports from the Government on
so-called shoot-to-kill incidents over the past 20 years. 

In a statement last night, Mr McGuinness said: "Republicans hope that the
international body will now clear away the preconditions put in the path of
progress by Mr Major.

"However, given the British government's almost daily reiteration of its
demand for an IRA surrender, many people, nationalist and Unionist, fear
the consequences of an inflexible British stance which continues to block
any movement into all-party talks."

Sinn Fein will seek to equate the weapons of the security forces with
illegally-held terrorist arms, a stance that Britain has said is totally
unacceptable.

Mr McGuinness said his party would be providing a "political submission
providing a comprehensive background to the conflict". It will address
constitutional political issues, demilitarisation, a new policing service and
political prisoners, he added.

But Mr McGuinness ruled out the possibility of the IRA handing over even
one ounce of Semtex.

He told BBC Radio Ulster: "I don't believe there is anybody seriously
engaged in discussions and negotiations in this process who believes there is
even the remotest possibility of that happening, whether it be from the
British Army, the loyalists, the RUC or the IRA, in the absence of a
negotiated settlement."

Mr McGuinness also denied that he had been a member of the IRA's ruling
army council. He was responding to reports that he had recently quit the
council amid suggestions that Sinn Fein wanted to present itself with a
"clean image" if there was renewed IRA violence. The international body
will try to break the deadlock over the IRA's refusal to disarm.

There is concern in Northern Ireland that, if it does not come up with a
solution and all-party talks are put off, the ceasefires will begin to break
down.

An Irish government delegation, led by Dick Spring, Foreign Minister, and
Nora Owen, Justice Minister, will also present its submission to the
international body today.

Dublin has long accepted that the IRA is unlikely to hand over weapons
ahead of all-party talks involving Sinn Fein. The Irish government is
expected to argue that, while it wants to see full decommissioning, it is
unrealistic to insist upon it before talks.

It is expected to outline what it sees as other ways of building trust between
the parties in Ulster. These include an end to punishment beatings,
paramilitary targeting and training as well as recruitment.

The arms body met in Belfast on Friday and Saturday and travelled to
Dublin yesterday. In Northern Ireland, it met all the political parties except
Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionists.

Mr Paisley has said he would not be a party to the "internationalisation of
the Northern Ireland problem".

Meanwhile, efforts were being made in Dublin to resolve a row that could
scupper plans for an Anglo-Irish summit on Thursday, when John Major is
to meet the Irish premier, John Bruton.

A dispute between the two governments over an EU-backed proposal for an
Indian company to buy out the troubled state-supported Irish Steel plant has
soured relations.

Britain has refused to sanction European money for the project, afraid that
it could harm a section of its own steel industry.

Mr Major may also visit Northern Ireland this week to underscore his
commitment to the search for a political settlement.

About 400 prisoners are expected to be freed from Northern Ireland's top
security jails later this week for seven days' Christmas parole.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 
    

    Why is it the British Government are making all the concessions while
    the I.R.A. continue killing and maiming??
    
    
    CHARLEY

RE: Reuters and AP (in this case) and propaganda.


News agencies often are used to "launder" progaganda. The govt. makes no
secret of this when the issues are less controversial. For example in
political campaigns, the "spin doctors" in US and UK politics will quite
freely discuss how they control the news. 

Most Journalists don't go scouring the streets looking for stories, they 
usually react to press releases and "tip off". The AP story in .81 looks
like it is just reworded press release.

>    BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) -- The killings of two Catholic men this
>    week -- widely believed to be the work of the IRA -- have cast a shadow
>    over peacemaking efforts.

This is just mischief making. There is nobody in custody for this, it is not
known who did it. If it is drug related, murder over turf wars is not at all
uncommon (even in Manchester, England).

>    The killings demonstrate why the outlawed group doesn't want to start
>    disarming -- the issue that's stalled the whole peace process. 

I think they call this "blowing your own smoke"!, circulate a rumor 
and then believe it yourself.

>    Northern Ireland security minister Sir John Wheeler declared that the
>    IRA was still killing. 

It begs the question, if he is so certain of this then why don't they
arrest the guilty? 

M
 

    Because people are too $h!+ scared to come forward and identify the
    culprits - they're too scared of getting a bullet through the temple
    from the "peace" lovers.
    
    
    CHARLEY

RE:                    <<< Note 1527.90 by METSYS::THOMPSON >>>


� News agencies often are used to "launder" progaganda. The govt. makes no
� secret of this when the issues are less controversial. For example in
� political campaigns, the "spin doctors" in US and UK politics will quite
� freely discuss how they control the news. 
� 
� Most Journalists don't go scouring the streets looking for stories, they 
� usually react to press releases and "tip off". The AP story in .81 looks
� like it is just reworded press release.

    What a lovely and convenient way to completely ignore something one
    doesn't want to know about. That's an impressive indictment on your
    balanced view.
    
� >    BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) -- The killings of two Catholic men this
� >    week -- widely believed to be the work of the IRA -- have cast a shadow
� >    over peacemaking efforts.
� 
� This is just mischief making. There is nobody in custody for this, it is not
� known who did it. If it is drug related, murder over turf wars is not at all
� uncommon (even in Manchester, England).

    Well now, the Irish Government seems convinced enough today to have
    cancelled the promised release of more prisoners in the Republic. Are
    they too listening to the "lies"?
    
� >    The killings demonstrate why the outlawed group doesn't want to start
� >    disarming -- the issue that's stalled the whole peace process. 
� 
� I think they call this "blowing your own smoke"!, circulate a rumor 
� and then believe it yourself.
    
    I think the facts speak for themselves. None of the terrorists is
    interested in disarming.

� >    Northern Ireland security minister Sir John Wheeler declared that the
� >    IRA was still killing. 
� 
� It begs the question, if he is so certain of this then why don't they
� arrest the guilty? 
    
    It doesn't beg that question at all. The general opinion, shared by the
    Irish Government, is that the IRA are responsible. It doesn't follow
    that the guilty individuals are known.
    
    Laurie.

The Electronic Telegraph  Friday 22 December 1995  The Front Page

Major attacks Sinn Fein 'lies'

By Richard Savill and Philip Johnston


JOHN MAJOR used his traditional pre-Christmas visit to Northern Ireland
yesterday to deliver a scathing attack on Sinn Fein.

He accused it of nurturing a "laughable fiction" when it maintained it was
separate from the IRA, and he denounced the recent upsurge in paramilitary
killings and beatings.

His outburst came in the face of Unionist demands for the Government to
acknowledge that the IRA had breached the ceasefire by the murders of five
men it suspected of drug dealing.

Mr Major said that if IRA involvement were confirmed, it provided the
clearest indication of why it was necessary for all weapons to be
decommissioned.

It was not acceptable behaviour to indulge in punishment beatings. It was
also unacceptable for Sinn Fein/ IRA to act as judge and jury and decide the
sentence on people who should be before the courts if they had committed
crimes, he said.

"There are several things that are being said and done by Sinn Fein and the
IRA at the moment that are, frankly, incorrect," he said.

"Firstly, they are suggesting that the only people who want them to disarm
and decommission are the British Government. That is not true. It's the
overwhelming feeling of the people of Northern Ireland.

"Secondly, they are saying it is a condition recently introduced. That is not
true.

"Thirdly, they are trying to maintain a fiction I think most people in
Northern Ireland will find laughable, that Sinn Fein and the IRA are wholly
separate. We know that not to be true."

Last night, Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein president, rejected Mr Major's
claims and insisted: "Sinn Fein and the IRA are not the same."

Mr Major later held a summit in Dublin with John Bruton, the Irish Prime
Minister, to reinforce relations between the two countries and sustain the
momentum of their policy on Northern Ireland.

Both refused to concede that the progress towards peace had stalled. Mr
Major said: "We are making steady progress. We should not look at a
particular incident, setback or problem and overlook the wider progress that
has been made."

Mr Bruton said the recent murders in Belfast were "barbaric" but he
declined to apportion responsibility.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

The Electronic Telegraph  Friday 22 December 1995  Home News

Paisley and Major in harmony at carol concert

By Richard Savill, Irish Correspondent

JOHN MAJOR showed his desire to bring the hard-line Democratic
Unionist Party into the political process when he made the town of
Ballymena, in the heart of Ian Paisley's North Antrim constituency, his first
stop on his visit to Northern Ireland.

Mr Paisley gave the Prime Minister an enthusiastic welcome outside the
town hall. The bonhomie contrasted with the furious row between the two in
Downing Street last year shortly after the IRA ceasefire.

Mr Major abruptly ended that meeting and walked out of the room after Mr
Paisley refused three times to accept that the Prime Minister was telling the
truth when he said there had been no secret deal with the IRA. After
another meeting in Downing Street, Mr Paisley derided Mr Major as a "fool
who has allowed himself to be strung along by thugs and murderers".

The two men continue to be at odds over the Government's policy and Mr
Paisley has flatly rejected London and Dublin's twin-track peace strategy.
He had earlier called on Mr Major to accept that the IRA ceasefire was over
after recent killings.

"You're very welcome Mr Major but don't let Ulster down"

But the political differences were briefly set aside and the pair were in high
spirits as they enjoyed an impromptu walkabout in Ballymena, to the delight
of the crowd waiting in the bitter cold and rain.

One of Mr Paisley's constituents shouted: "You're very welcome Mr Major
but don't let Ulster down."

The Prime Minister and Mr Paisley, accompanied by the Northern Ireland
Secretary, Sir Patrick Mayhew, later heard carols sung by local children in
the town hall.

Mr Paisley said afterwards: "I am always glad to see any distinguished visitor
in Ballymena."

He held brief talks with Mr Major and said he had demanded that reports on
ballistic tests into the type of weapons used in the suspected IRA killings
should be disclosed.

"The police have been very quick in the past to be able to tell us that a gun
had been used so many times in other murders," he said.

"I was pressing the question: does he [Mr Major] still perceive that there is a
cessation of violence and does he perceive there is still a ceasefire? Those
are the important questions that need to be answered."

The ceasefire, he added, was being violated time and time again and the
ballistic tests would prove who was responsible.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

The Electronic Telegraph  Friday 22 December 1995  Home News

Major and Bruton affirm ties at symbolic summit

By Philip Johnston in Dublin

JOHN Major and John Bruton, Ireland's prime minister, staged a symbolic
Christmas summit in Dublin last night to reinforce relations between the
two countries and sustain the momentum of their policy on Northern
Ireland.

Despite a recent spate of paramilitary killings in Belfast, both refused to
concede that the so-called "peace process" had faltered and they looked
forward to political progress in the New Year.

They also opened a new phase in British-Irish relationships on a series of
fronts unconnected with Northern Ireland. The two leaders approved a
report drawn up by officials suggesting a range of areas - commercial,
scientific, cultural and economic - where the two countries could improve
co-operation.

Mr Major said: "We are close neighbours yet over the years the relationship
has not taken a fraction of the opportunities it could have done. I find that
almost inexplicable.

"The reason is locked in history and it should remain in history. We expect a
significant increase in bi-lateral exchanges across a wide range of interests
as a result. That can only be good for two nations that have many interests in
common." But it was Northern Ireland and the next stage of the search for a
political settlement that dominated more than an hour of talks. Mr Major,
who had visited the province earlier, condemned the recent killings and
acknowledged differences between the governments on the way forward.

He added: "Those who think we will rub our eyes one day and it will all be
over are deluding themselves. But we are making steady progress. We should
not look at a particular incident, setback or problem and overlook the wider
progress."

The two leaders were anxious for their meeting to be held in a friendly spirit
after a relatively chequered period in relations between the two countries.

Following talks at Government Buildings, they visited a nearby pub before
their wives joined them for dinner. They then went to Dublin's National
Concert Hall for the second half of Handel's Messiah.

Earlier Mr Major visited the town of Ballymena, in the heart of Ian Paisley's
North Antrim constituency.

The Prime Minister and Mr Paisley, accompanied by the Northern Ireland
Secretary, Sir Patrick Mayhew, heard carols sung by children in the town
hall.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 




  It's been almost one and a half years since the Irish Republican Army 
  ceasefire.  We still have the British government refusing to sit down
  with all democratically elected representatives from north east Ireland.

  Now we have John Major trying to play the "orange card".

> Mr Major said that if IRA involvement were confirmed, it provided the
> clearest indication of why it was necessary for all weapons to be
> decommissioned.

  What a hypocrite.  Sinn Fein has been saying that since day-one, all 
  weapons need to be removed from Irish politics.  Of course, John Major
  doesn't mean any of the arms held by the British forces (the largest
  armed group in north east Ireland).

>  "Firstly, they are suggesting that the only people who want them to disarm
> and decommission are the British Government. That is not true. It's the
> overwhelming feeling of the people of Northern Ireland.

  The only people who want a unilateral disarmament, is the British Government.
  Everyone except the British government wants to see the removal of all of the
  guns from Irish politics.

> "Secondly, they are saying it is a condition recently introduced. That is not
> true.

  Yeah-right.  I guess it was a condition from the beginning, but it was
  a tightly held secret agenda of the British government, that they didn't
  announce until it looked like they might have to actually talk to their
  enemies.

> "Thirdly, they are trying to maintain a fiction I think most people in
> Northern Ireland will find laughable, that Sinn Fein and the IRA are wholly
> separate. We know that not to be true." 

  Even John Major knows the truth here.  The IRA is not Sinn Fein or vice-versa.
  Sinn Fein is a democratically elected party utilizing democratice means to
  stop the human rights abuses by the British government, and achieve 
  Nationalist goals. The Irish Republican Army is a military organization using
  military methods to remove the British occupying forces from the north east
  corner of Ireland.

                               Mark

    Happy Christmas Mark.
    
    Shaun.

    Mark.
    
    <<1� years of ceasefire>>
    
    The British Govt. has kept their side of the bargain, unlike the I.R.A.
    
    <<Largest armed group>>
    
    That has killed less than the smaller groups.
    
    <<unilateral disarmament>>
    
    The British are not the only group that want this. The population want
    it as well. The I.R.A. have time and time again proved they don't.
    
    <<tightly held secret>>
    
    If it was such a tightly held secret, how come you seem to know all
    about it when I and 60 million other people in the U.K. and N.I. don't.
    
    <<Sinn Fake/I.R.A separate organisation?>>
    
    Wipe your mouth with toilet paper Mark.
    
    
    Anyway...
    
    A Merry Christmas to all people in Northern and the Republic of Ireland.
    And don't worry,  Mark Holohan is behind you.....about 5,000 miles
    behind in fact.
    
    
    CHARLEY
    

    
    Wow, is this string depressing...
    
    With Mark on the far left and Laurie, Blinkey and Charley on the far
    right, focus on a middle compromise seems impossible.  I couldn't even
    imagine you 4 sitting down to talk in the same room without
    preconditions, let alone the leaders of NI and UK.
    
    I have lost 99% of my hope with the current stalemate situation.
    
    Majors won't budge for fear of A) loosing the Unionist votes and
    forcing a vote of no confidence, or B) giving the
    Unionist/Loyalist/Paislyites a reason to explode in terror.
    
    Adams/McGuinness won't budge for A) loosing the loose respect of the
    IRA milatary commandos and symbolising surrender or B) Giving up their
    one violence ace, weapons and explosives.
    
    Paisley/Trimble won't budge because A) they know they have Major by the 
    b*lls and B) to budge would eventually lead to an erosion of their 
    power and influence.  
    
    To score the above leaders with their flock, I would say they are all
    perceived winners.  The clear loosers are of course the ordinary people 
    living in Northern Ireland and all of the bordering counties of the 
    Republic.
    
    I have been up north several times, Portadown and Belfast mainly, and 
    have always enjoyed the people.  I have several protestant cousins and 
    a few catholic friends that I have stayed with and believe me, all want
    peace.  
    
    At this turning point I wish all the folks of the northern counties, UK
    and Ireland a safe and happy holiday. 
    
    Merry Christmas,
    Paul Greenaway  
    
                 

    And the same to you, Paul.
    
    John Bennett            

    I think you'll find that i'm actually sitting on the fence Paul.....
    
    Happy Christmas tout de meme.
    
    Shaun.

    Paul,
    
    Yep, me too; sitting on the fence. It may appear otherwise sometimes,
    simply because I can't stand seeing blatant and unsubtle terrorist
    propaganda going unchallenged. At the end of the day, I want to see a
    happy, prosperous and peaceful, united Ireland, but I do not believe
    the end justifies any means, nor do I "understand" the killing and
    maiming that goes on.
    
    A belated happy Christmas to you too, and a healthy and prosperous New
    Year.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    I'm with Lozzer on that one.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Two more murders in the past week. Both victims innocent.
    
    Sinn Fein refuse to condemn the murders.
    
    
    CHARLEY

Electronic Telegraph  Friday 29 December 1995  Home News

                          

Sixth IRA murder is threat to peace

By Richard Savill Irish Correspondent

THE search for peace in Northern Ireland was under fresh pressure last
night after the suspected IRA murder of an alleged petty criminal in west
Belfast.

Martin McCrory, 30, was shot on Wednesday as he watched television at his
home in the Turf Lodge area. He was the sixth man murdered since April
and the third in the past three weeks.

Police suspect an IRA purge against drug dealers and petty criminals. Last
night, a group calling itself Direct Action Against Drugs claimed
responsibility for Mr McCrory's murder. 

Security sources believe the group, which has also claimed responsibility for
some of the other killings, is a cover for the IRA. 

Senior Royal Ulster Constabulary officers are concerned that there could be
more deaths. David Trimble, the Ulster Unionist Party leader, said it was
time the Government and the leadership of the nationalist SDLP spoke out
about the heightening scale of terror which has left four dead this month.

"It is a matter of major concern that there now is a return to violence after
nationalists assured us of a permanent peace," he said.

"The silence from the SDLP leadership is quite deafening, and obviously
there is no ceasefire when people are being murdered.

"The Government and nationalists promoting the peace process must come
clean. They have to face up to what is going on and see how they can help
bring it to an end."

According to security sources, Mr McCrory was a car thief and burglar with
only minimal involvement in drugs. He was shot in the legs by the IRA
seven years ago in a punishment attack.

His killers fired through a window and hit him in the chest as he sat in his
lounge in Norglen Parade. He died in hospital. His three-year-old son, who
was beside him on a sofa, suffered a slight hand injury. His common law wife
and another son, aged eight, were unhurt.

The Government does not regard the killings as a breach of the ceasefire
because they are not seen as part of a military campaign. Unionists believe
the Government is reluctant to declare them a breach because it would call
into question its policy of talking to republicans.

Sinn Fein's refusal to condemn any of the killings was highlighted by Joe
Hendron, the SDLP MP for West Belfast. He said he believed the IRA was
behind the killings and was intent on asserting its grip on nationalist areas.

"It's another phase of the onslaught against a section of the nationalist
people," he added, "and if Sinn Fein want to be considered democrats, then
this campaign must be stopped.

"There's no doubt that the IRA is either carrying out these atrocities or
getting other republicans to do their dirty work for them. But the IRA
military ceasefire is a separate issue."

Supt Ian Williamson, the RUC's sub-divisional commander in west Belfast,
said: "The reality of activity such as this it is nothing to do with punishment.
It is the antithesis of justice."

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

The Electronic Telegraph  Wednesday 3 January 1996  The Front Page

                          

'Hypocritical' IRA is behind drug executions, says RUC

Gunmen license narcotics rings while claiming to crusade 
against crime, reports Colin Randall

BEHIND the facade of a moral crusade against drug trafficking, the IRA
continues to involve itself in the lucrative trade, according to senior police
officers.

Responsibility for some of the seven murders in nationalist areas has been
admitted by an organisation called Direct Action Against Drugs.

But highly placed RUC sources dismiss that as a cover for the IRA and say
the recent spate of killings represents a double act of hypocrisy.

On the one hand, the IRA imposes or sanctions execution without trial - a
practice at odds with the republican tradition of complaining about the
shortcomings in the British criminal justice system, or alleged shoot-to-kill
missions.

On the other, the Provisionals license drug operations while also
campaigning against anti-social elements in nationalist areas where
conventional law enforcement poses difficulties.

It is estimated that the IRA fund-raising machine needs to make up to �10
million each year.

The true nature of IRA involvement in drugs has always aroused
disagreement and speculation. No one doubts that individuals or former
members have been attracted by the rich pickings.

One victim of the shootings, Francis Collins, whose murder a week before
Christmas was admitted by Direct Action Against Drugs, although his
widow firmly denies that he dealt in narcotics, previously belonged to the
IRA in north Belfast.

Yet hard evidence to link the Provisionals to any large-scale formal
involvement has proved more elusive.

Tim Pat Coogan, an experienced writer on the IRA, said yesterday that he
had yet to see a shred of proof that the Provisionals were engaged in an
activity that would damage their cause "to a factor of 10 times the combined
effect of the war of attrition by the British Army, MI5, MI6, the RUC or the
Special Branch".

Other observers suggest, however, that paramilitary interest in taking a big
share of drugs profits developed as a natural extension of traditional
racketeering and armed robberies that financed terrorist activity on both
sides of the sectarian divide in Ulster.

The IRA, anxious to be seen occupying the moral high ground if only in
nationalist eyes, has gone to great lengths to distance itself from drugs.

After a series of raids on both sides of the Irish border and in England in
1994, it formally denied involvement.

But police suggest the IRA is merely keen to keep its involvement at arm's
length, by franchising dealers rather than concerning itself directly in
distribution.

"There is no doubt in our minds that terrorists on both sides are still
involved in drugs," one source said yesterday.

As part of its response to the IRA and loyalist ceasefires, the RUC has
tripled the strength of its drugs squad to 52, opening four new offices outside
Belfast, and has assigned 70 other officers to full-time drug duties.

Seizures of ecstasy increased more than fivefold in the province last year,
the total of 137,000 recovered tablets indicating an annual rate of
consumption of around a million.

Ken Maginnis, Unionist MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone and the
party's defence and home affairs spokesman, said yesterday that although he
had always had some doubt about IRA involvement in drugs, he had been
assured at the highest level that his caution was unnecessary.

But he said that while the majority of those killed in recent shootings
appeared to have had a link with drugs, none could be considered a "big
player".

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

The Electronic Telegraph  Wednesday 3 January 1996  The Front Page



RUC reform after wave of murders

Police criticised over IRA drug deaths

By Philip Johnston, and Toby Harnden in Belfast



 Hypocritical' IRA is behind drug executions, says RUC
 Don't count on us, Trimble tells Major



SWEEPING reforms of the police structure in Northern Ireland are
being prepared by the Government and the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
They have been given added urgency by growing concern over the recent
wave of IRA murders. The RUC wants to counter criticism voiced
yesterday by Nationalist and Sinn Fein politicians who blamed the
deaths on the police's failure to combat drug-related crime.

The latest victim - the fifth in a month - was Ian Lyons, 31, shot in a car
outside his girlfriend's home in Lurgan, Co Armagh, by a group calling itself
Direct Action Against Drugs. Police believe this is a cover name of the
Provisional IRA.

The restructuring of the RUC will begin with a White Paper setting out new
lines of accountability for the force which is due to be published later this
month.

For the first time, it will define the responsibilities of individual constables
and enshrine in law that they are expected to act in due deference to the two
traditions in Northern Ireland and on behalf of the whole community.

The RUC challenged this concept on the grounds that it suggested that
police officers did not already act with impartiality. But ministers believe
legislation can offer fresh reassurances about policing - especially in areas
where suspicions of the RUC have always been high.

The White Paper is also expected to bring the RUC into line with mainland
forces by transferring financial and administrative responsibility from the
elected police authority to the Chief Constable.

More radical changes of the RUC's command structure are also being drawn
up with recommendations expected in March. These are likely to involve: a
significant cut in the province's 12,000 police officers, possibly by 4,000 or
more; a decentralised structure by axing the divisional command tier and
creating a new network of 24 locally autonomous police areas; and greater
use of the RUC reserve in community policing.

The police are considering three possible scenarios as they contemplate the
future structure of the force:

   A return to terrorism, which would require the force level to remain
   around the 12,000 mark.

   A significant absence of terrorism - as now - but with paramilitaries
   continuing to recruit, target and carry out "punishment" killings.
   This could allow a cut in numbers to around 8,000.

   A political agreement, a devolved assembly and a permanent end to
   terrorist violence. Under these conditions, the number of police
   could be reduced to 5,000.

Ministers and senior officers are adamant that there will be no separate
policing, with only Roman Catholic officers patrolling nationalist areas or
Protestants patrolling loyalist areas. But they see scope for recruiting
reserves locally from hard-line areas, providing there is no lowering of
standards.

The RUC accepts that the religious balance of the police force, which is
overwhelmingly Protestant, will not be improved for many years. But senior
officers regard the structural reforms as long overdue.

There is also debate about the name of the force. While the Royal prefix will
stay, some officers favour adding the words "Northern Ireland's Police
Service" to the title. A more controversial move favoured by some senior
officers would be scrapping the oath of allegiance to the Queen.

The reforms come amid mounting alarm over a wave of killings that has
seen seven people assassinated since last April.

Senior officers believe the republican paramilitaries are engaged in a "turf
war" for control of nationalist areas by offering a brutal alternative to the
criminal justice system.

The latest victim, Ian Lyons, died in Belfast's Victoria Hospital from
wounds to the chest after being shot by two masked gunmen.

Det Insp Derek McLouglin, leading the police inquiry, said: "Direct Action
Against Drugs is a flag of convenience for the Provisional IRA."

He added: "These people decided this man should be murdered for whatever
reason - maybe for no other reason than rumour and innuendo."

Sir Patrick Mayhew, the Northern Ireland Secretary, said the murders called
into question whether the IRA - and its political wing Sinn Fein - were
truly committed to peaceful methods.

However, the Government does not regard the murders as a breach of the
ceasefire and will continue talks with Sinn Fein leaders in the search for a
political settlement. Mitchel McLaughlin, the Sinn Fein chairman, said
there was no evidence to link the killings with the IRA and sought to blame
the RUC, alleging an absence of acceptable policing of the drug trade.

Concern over policing was also voiced by Seamus Mallon, the nationalist MP
for Newry and Armagh, who conceded that the RUC was trying hard to build
bridges with the community.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

These murders have been disowned by Sinn Fein(sp?). In the past, no matter how
politically damaging they have been, the IRA have acknowledged their actions.

I agree with a Prime Min. John Major in those ET postings, "wait until it is
confirmed". Until then the peace process should continue.


When the Federal building in Oklahoma City was bombed the US Govt, the media and
British immigration all believed that it was "Islamic Extremists". The truth
was shown to be different. Just because you want to believe that one group
did it, even if there's a chorus of agreement from others who want to believe
it, that does not mean that group is in fact responsible. 

At one point in the appeals process of the Guildford 4 a senior judge/attourney
claimed the evidence aganst them was "the most compelling he had ever seen". [I
can't recall who that was! but if anyone can remember the quote and it's author
I'd appreciate it]. When Justice May looked over the same material some years
later he couldn't identify a single item of tangible evidence against them.

M

> "the most compelling he had ever seen"

For a conviction or an acquittal?

                         James.

    Whilst I always look forward with interest to Laurie's
    articles from the London Daily Telegraph, note 1527.106
    drew my attention even more than usual: it's of a rather
    different character to the other articles, and it strikes
    me as a plant by one of the British intelligence services.
    
    Read it again and see what you think. I couldn't see any
    hard facts or new information, but it definitely left the
    impression that the IRA was involved in drug-smuggling.
    However, I know that this isn't the truth. This seems to
    be an attempt to spread muck in the hope that it will
    stick.
    
    How do I know that this isn't the truth? Because the
    Chief Constable of the RUC, Sir Hugh Annesley, told
    me so. In fact he has said so publicly many, many times
    before. While he is sure that the UDA and UVF are
    involved in drugs, and that the INLA may well be, he
    claims that the IRA are not. So does Ken Maginnis,
    though rereading note .106 puts an interesting slant
    on that. In fact other than Ken Maginnis, all the
    other attributions are anonymous: "highly-placed
    RUC sources", "other observers", "a source".
    
    Well, Colin Randall, the author of the piece must
    be one well-connected journalist to get all this
    info. But wait. Colin Randall? Isn't he the Folk
    Music and Soccer correspondent of the Telegraph?
    How come this piece wasn't written by Richard
    Savill, the Telegraph's Irish Correspondent, or
    Philip Johnston, their Political Correspondent?
    They don't even appear as co-authors, which would
    be normal when a junior hack writes a piece involving
    their specialist area. Both Savill and Johnston
    are regularly in Belfast, and have their ears to the
    ground. Randall is a rare sight in Belfast, and you
    would imagine (well, I would, anyway) that he would
    co-write such a piece with his more informed colleagues.
    
    So where did a junior hack who's not well-known in
    Belfast get all these high-level sources?
    
    My guess is that he has a friend in military intelligence.
    Have a look at some of his other pieces which you might
    think out of the ordinary for him: he wrote a piece
    about Casement being gay, he wrote about gays in the
    military and he wrote about the "Death on the Rock"
    case. 
    
    Anyway read the piece again (.106) and see what you think.
    I don't know if this is a Whitehall- or Stormont-inspired
    piece, but I just have a bad feeling about it.
                                                 

    .110
    
    Total Paranoia
    
    
    CHARLEY

    re .110
    
    Yes there could be something in what you say, but it is hard to prove
    isn't it?  It need not necessarily come from the Intelligence
    services, though. There are obviously forces at work trying to
    destabilise the peace on both sides and for me the NI issue is a main
    unspoken reason for the continuing attempts by right wing tories to
    bring down John Major.
    
    BTW, It is also ironic that Casement's sexuality is still an issue in such
    circles. The biographies of him which assume that the diaries which
    passed through the hands of British Intelligence are genuine explain
    the obvious inconsistencies by claiming he was schizophrenic. Is it
    possible to get hold of a copy of the Casement article, it is a hobby
    of mine collecting them?
    
    Kevin 
         

Re .110

Incredible and well pieced together theory.  Frighting if it's true.

Re .112

> The biographies of him which assume that the diaries which
> passed through the hands of British Intelligence are genuine explain
> the obvious inconsistencies by claiming he was schizophrenic

Please explain for the relatively uninitiated?

Anyone hear what came from the release of official papers from 1965 vis
a vis Casement?

                          James.

    <<IRA involved in drug smuggling, however I know this not to be the
    truth>>
    
    Seems you don't know much then. The I.R.A. members that are based in
    Reading have been involved in drug trafficking for many years.
    
    
    CHARLEY

re: .109

The most compelling for conviction!

>    Seems you don't know much then. The I.R.A. members that are based in
>    Reading have been involved in drug trafficking for many years.
 
Can you expand on this comment? 

Thks
M 

    Through a number of Irish aquaintances I have known over the years, I
    have been told there are a number of I.R.A. members and sympathisers based 
    in Reading who, in the past, have planned and carried out terrorist attacks
    in and around London, Aldershot etc. Part of the funding for these
    activities comes from the drugs trade.
    
    Most of the Reading Irish community look upon these individuals with
    disdain, but will not incriminate them for fear of retribution.
    
    
    CHARLEY

Re -1

Most of these tossers are probably using the IRA as a flag of convenience
and little else?  Not that they are much different from the crowd we have
up in the North at the moment :-(.

                           James.

    Charley
    
    With respect.........
    
    
    Bullshit!
    
    Tom.
    

The Electronic Telegraph  Thursday 4 January 1996  Home News

                          
Talks with Sinn Fein to go on despite killings

By Philip Johnston, Political Correspondent

MINISTERS will continue political contacts with Sinn Fein despite calls
yesterday for a suspension of talks after the series of IRA murders in
Northern Ireland.

Although no date has been fixed for the next round of discussions involving
Sinn Fein leaders, government sources said last night that they expected
further meetings in the coming months.

Both Ulster Unionists and leading Tories urged Mr Major yesterday to
consider a suspension of talks until the IRA ceased the "punishment"
killings that have claimed five lives in as many weeks.

John Taylor, deputy leader of the Ulster Unionists, said the Government
should send a "a clear signal" to the IRA, as the Irish Government had done
before Christmas when it halted a planned release of republican prisoners.

Mr Taylor said on Radio 4's Today programme: "The IRA have got to
understand that they cannot kill or bomb their way to a negotiating table.

"We have Catholics being murdered almost on a weekly basis by the IRA
and before long it will be Protestants. And then the situation will really be
very serious indeed. It will enter into a spiral from which we will find it very
difficult to pull ourselves out."

Andrew Hunter, chairman of the Tory backbench Northern Ireland
committee, also called for a suspension of contacts. "The Provisionals'
involvement in the current spate of killings makes nonsense of their
'complete cessation of military operations' claim," he said.

Ministers are concerned that Sinn Fein has refused to denounce the killings,
reinforcing Mr Major's view that they are "inextricably linked" to the IRA.

The Government, however, does not want to give Sinn Fein an excuse to
break off talks at a time when the international body headed by the 
American former senator, George Mitchell, is considering moves to disarm
the paramilitaries.

There is no likelihood of a meeting between Mr Major and Gerry Adams,
the Sinn Fein president, which republicans are demanding.

There are divisions in Unionist ranks. Ken Maginnis, the party security
spokesman, said: "To walk away would allow Sinn Fein/IRA the excuse of
saying the Government brought the ceasefire to an end and for them to
return to more intense violence."

Sinn Fein's senior representatives involved in talks with the British and
Irish governments have been urged to disown the campaign of bloodshed in
nationalist areas. The party, however, insists that there is no proof of IRA
involvement in the latest shooting in Lurgan, Co Armagh, where a criminal
was killed with a shotgun.

Direct Action Against Drugs claimed that it killed Ian Lyons, 31, as he sat in
a car with his girlfriend. He died later in hospital, the seventh man to be
murdered since April.

The funeral of Mr Lyons, a painter and decorator, will take place today.

Loyalist paramilitaries have drawn up a hit-list of 10 drug dealers and petty
criminals in preparation for punishment killings similar to those carried out
by the IRA, Toby Harnden in Belfast writes.

Nancy Gracey, spokesman for the pressure group, Families Against
Intimidation and Terror, warned yesterday: "The loyalists could be about to
carry out a carbon copy of what the IRA are doing." Two men on the list had
intended to speak out but were too frightened after the killing of Mr Lyons,
she said.

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

    
    James you're probably right.
    
    Tom, I'm only repeating what I've been told by members of the Irish
    community in Reading.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    It is reported today that Sir Hugh Anneseley, RUC Chief Constable, said
    on TV last night that the DAAD was "A flag of convenience for the IRA".
    Assume is a risky word, but I assume that he must feel that there is
    evidence to support that assertion. Unfortuneately this was not
    broadcast in the rest of the UK.
    
    The only question which seems to remain is whether this is a return to
    violence and an enforcement of silence and discipline amongst the
    Catholic community. Or a bunch of thugs who feel they can take the law
    into their own hands and bypass the entire process of law and justice
    in the name of cleaning up some drug related crimes. Either way it
    would seem to have no place in a civilised society.
    
    Andrew

    I'd go along with that.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Yeah, the "allegiance" of the actual perptrators is almost irrelevant.
    As Mr. Dodd says, there's no place for this kind of behaviour in
    civilised society.
    
    What is interesting, and perhaps revealing, is Sinn Fein's continued
    refusal to condemn the killings. Perhaps they "understand" why they're
    being carried out.
    
    Laurie.

    I'll go along with that as well.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    If what John Hume says is true and IRA hardliners are trying to
    destabilise the peace, what is the way forward ? It seems to me that
    Unionists are at best half-hearted about the peace and at worst would
    be happy to see Major fall and have a return to the war on a
    Thatcherite programme, with the likes of Portillo leading the Tory
    party. If there is a return to the armed struggle by the IRA it is the
    working people who will suffer most. Is that what those who are using
    the latest killings to bash Sinn Fein want? Or are there any
    suggestions available about what Unionists could do to support the
    peace? It is sickening to listen to all the condemnations of DAAD when
    at the same time the choir leaders are beavering away to destabilise
    the situation themselves. The political power structures which fed off
    the war need its return to survive, it seems to me. Of course the DAAD
    killings have no place in a civilised society, but then a civilised
    society should be able to mobilise the political will to stop them, and
    it is obvious that that is not the case in NI at the moment. So could
    we hear something constructive from the writers of the past few notes?
    
    Kevin

    Kev,
    
    I think this is proof of the pudding of why the British Government want
    the factions to disarm.
    
    Even in "peace" the killing continues. Who's to say when and where it will 
    stop
    
    The situation only strengthens HMG's position and makes Sinn Fein look
    like they approve of such measures.
    
    IMO that is.
    
    CHARLEY

    Tis but a quick note.....
    
    IMHO The hardline loyalists know full well that a successfull peace
    process will lead to more south involment with the running of the north
    and perhapps to an eventual full integration. Thats a long way from the
    Storment days of a "protestant state for a protestant peole". It would
    thus appear to the loyalist advantage to destabalise the process.
    
    Howver, there is no chance of the of the war continuing for any length
    of time under a Portillo led government as there is no avoiding the
    fact that Labour will seize the reins of power at Westminster come the
    next General Election. As labour tend to be more sympathetic to the
    minority population of NI then it is not in the Loyalist or Unionist
    interests to bring down Major and thus the current tory government.
    I'm sure Major is aware of this and hence will not drift too far to the
    unionist side.
    
    The Unionist thus have to be convinced that the current track is their
    'best bet' even if it brings greater envolment from the south.
    
    The IRA hardliners are, IMO, also trying to end the peace process. If
    Gerry Adams alienates too many of the hardliners then we'll see yet
    another IRA split. Sinn Fein will emerge from such a split as a fully
    democratic party thus leaving the remaining IRA hardliners to form the
    "Provisional Provisional yes we really mean it this time IRA" which
    will subsequently be heavily hit by both North and South whilst peace
    talks continue.
    
    Personally, I see no way of returning to the status quo of the last 25
    years. Any continuation of the "troubles" will be staged on a far different
    landscape, both militarily and politicaly.
    
    The current peace process really is the best shot but if hardliners
    from both sides can't be tamed then i'd expect failure, followed by
    paramilitary defeat for both sides, at the same time as a new peace
    process polishes the table.
    
    Shaun.
    
    

    >However, there is no chance of the of the war continuing for any length
     >   of time under a Portillo led government as there is no avoiding the
        fact that Labour will seize the reins of power at Westminster come
    >the
     >next General Election.
    
    1) Although I hate to say it, I think Major has fair chances of winning
    the next election, unless there is tactical voting between Labour and
    the Liberals. I would not fancy the present shambles of a Labour party
    to win the boat race if the other boat sank.
    
    2) The "Thatcherite fraction" had the cream so long they yearn to
    get their snouts back into it. Also it is in their nature to keep
    fighting for what is 'right'.  Lady Macbeth herself has never gotten over
    being dumped by the tory party, nor have her supporters.
    
    So I still think that they want the peace to fail and don't support any
    measures which would move it forward. It is obvious that Adams would
    be satisfied with even the stalest crumbs and that would be enough to
    have the DAAD dogs called off, but the 'Thatcherite fraction' have John
    Major pinned to the wall and he can't move.
    
    Kevin  
         

    Kevin,
    
    I'm sorry but I really have to disagree. Understandably, this is all a
    matter of oppinion but I really cannot imagine a single possibility
    that the Torys will win the next General Election. Already two people
    have left the party to edge left, one to the Liberals and the other too
    Labour. Labour will win, and win well, the next GE leaving the Torys
    the task of accepting that the fact that the party has leant too far
    right. They will thus occupy theirselves with the task of shifting
    themselves nearer the centre....as Labour have painstakingly doing
    these last ten or so years. Such a situation will deny Portillo any
    chance of ever leading the Party into government.....well unless he
    changes his spots.
    
    Shaun.

Shaun,

I almost agree, but think that you have missed one important point.  When
they lose the election, as they surely must, they willl split into two camps.

One camp will think they lost becase they went too far right.  They will
oppose Portillo and his ilk.

The other group will think they lost because there was no "clear blue water"
between the Tories and Labour.  'At least you knew where you were with Maggie'.

Civil war within the party will then ensue, in the same way as happened in
Labour.  This will leave Labour at least two sessions to bugger things up;
a task at which they have proven to be even more competent than the Tories
over the years.

This explains why I bought the most expensive house I could afford recently.  
1/2  :-)  Inflation will almost certainly increase, and if Digital does stay
here and keeps me in a job, then when we get through the spell of Labour
government the mortgage should be insignificant :-)

regards,
//alan

PS I forgot to add that, as a Scot, I shall be taxed more heavily than the
   English in order to provide a few jobs to some extra civil servants in 
   Edinburgh.  Joy of joys.

    mmmMMMM....looks a bit gloomy for you Mr Potter. Personaly, i feel
    confident that Labour won't muck things up too much....at least not as
    badly as times past.
    
    Anyway, I don't care cos I don't live in Britain ;^)
    
    Shaun.

Electronic Telegraph  Thursday 25 January 1996  Home News

Five held over 'lost victims of Ulster'
    
By Richard Savill

POLICE investigating the missing victims of Ulster violence - people who
are believed to have been abducted and killed by the IRA - were questioning
five men in Belfast last night.

At least 11 people have disappeared in the past 25 years after they were
allegedly snatched by republican terrorists.

The arrests in raids on houses in west Belfast came on the day that the
Mitchell commission called in its report for paramilitaries to release
information on the fate of the victims.

A group, Families of the Disappeared, appealed last year to Gerry Adams,
the Sinn Fein president, to help locate the bodies. 

But, despite publicity for the families' case and support from President
Clinton, the IRA has not disclosed where the bodies lie.

Police said they were questioning a number of people "as part of their
investigations into claims that terrorist murder victims may have been
secretly buried". The arrests were made under the Prevention of Terrorism
Act. Most cases date back to reports of missing persons from the 1970s." 

Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc 

    I've deliberately posted this here as it seems that Mr. Trimble is
    indeed showing his true colours at last. How's this for racism????
    
    Ray....
    
                    THE IRISH TIMES EMAIL EDITION
                    _____________________________
               Monday, March 25, 1996: Trial Edition: Issue 12
               _______________________________________________ 
>> TRIMBLE SAYS MAJOR SHOULD CONSIDER CURB ON IRISH TRAVEL RIGHTS 

The Ulster Unionist Party leader, Mr David Trimble, has called for 
travel restrictions on Irish people going to Britain, reports Gerry 
Moriarty, in Belfast. In a fiery weekend speech, Mr Trimble also 
accused the Irish Government of exporting its social problems to 
England. He criticised Mr John Bruton and Mr John Major's handling of 
the peace process, called for a more formal, authoritative role for 
the proposed elected forum and demanded that Dublin destroy the IRA. 
  Addressing the Ulster Unionist Council - the governing body of the 
UUP - he also targeted the SDLP and Sinn Fein, and suggested 
President Clinton might supply the Republic with the antiterrorist 
"intelligence equipment it so obviously lacks".
                        ____________________
           

    I don't think racist is the word you're looking for. It's certainly
    xenophobic, and smacks of the last gasps of a desperate man. This sort
    of thing has no place in today's world, and will, I suspect, be treated
    with the contempt it deserves. It damages his own credibility more than
    anything else.
    
    Laurie.

    re .134
    
    I agree with you. He is calling for discrimination against those he
    defines as "Irish". The Unionist party has always maintained its power
    by stirring up racial and sectarian hatred. They don't go in for the
    blatant "the Oirish are less intelligent"  crap nowadays but the code is the
    same. I don't see much hope for peace in NI until Trimble and his like
    are defeated politically. This can only be done by crossing the
    sectarian divide and building class solidarity against NI's tories.
    That needs an internationalist agenda and not a nationalist one.
    
    Kevin
     

    The following story is just another reason why elections at this time
    in NI are a bad idea. They are, by their very nature, divisive and the
    following would only make it even more so....
    
    You really have to ask yourself, do any of the parties in this conflict 
    really want peace?...why are the DUP trying to alienate the UDP and 
    the PUP?...
    
    Ray....
    
    
                    THE IRISH TIMES EMAIL EDITION
                    _____________________________

          Tuesday, March 26, 1996: Trial Edition: Issue 13
          ________________________________________________
>> DUP CONSIDERING STRATEGIC SPLIT TO MAXIMISE SEATS 

The DUP deputy leader, Mr Peter Robinson, yesterday indicated his 
party was earnestly considering whether to split into "three parties" 
in order to maximise its number of seats on the proposed elected 
forum, reports Gerry Moriarty. The suggestion has not impressed the 
loyalist Ulster Democratic Party, the Progressive Unionist Party, or 
the Northern Secretary, Sir Patrick Mayhew, who views it as 
mischief-making. By splitting into three parties, the DUP would 
exploit the "top-up" system specifically designed by the British 
government to aid the UDP and the PUP. Should Dr Paisley's party 
strategically divide into three, the chances of the PUP and the UDP 
being included amongst the 10 most successful parties, thereby 
securing an additional two seats in the elected body, would become 
very slim.
                            ____________________

    re' .134 David Trimble's diatribe...
    
    What has been the reaction of the mainland British press to Trimble's
    quote?
    
    

    Haven't seen any but then again I haven't been looking.
    
    Silly idea though.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Not sure what you mean by silly idea. 
    

    Curbing travel rights.
    
    Did I miss something?
    
    
    CHARLEY

re .141

Currently, Ireland and Britain are a 'Common Travel Area', that means you
can go between the two without the need for a passport.

This is what he was suggesting be ended. 

M 

.138
>>> re' .134 David Trimble's diatribe...
    
>>> What has been the reaction of the mainland British press to Trimble's
>>> quote?
   
    The only reaction I have read was from the Irish Prime Minister, which
    sums it up nicely for me....
    
* "I think they belong in some leprechaun's book of unusual Irish 
statements." - The Taoiseach, Mr Bruton, on Mr Trimble's remarks.