Conference tallis::celt

    
    He..Like Fianna Fail..are gone to the dogs...Unbelievable..Its not as
    if we havn't enough probelms at the moment. Fianna fail are running
    from getting involved in the Divorce referendum.
    
    I agree..its a publicity stunt..
    
    Mick
    

    "apology" was how Raidio Teilf�s England described it, but
    that was just them putting words into his mouth. If he had
    asked the British Govt. for an apology, that would imply
    that he was blaming them for the famine. He actually
    imputed no such blame.
    
    What he actually said was (quoting today's IT)
    "I think a frank acknowledgement and expression of
    regret from the highest level about the shortcomings
    of the then British government's response to the
    famine would contribute to a better climate of
    relations between Irish people, or people of Irish
    stock across the world, and the British, who after
    all have in so many respects intertwined historical
    experiences".
    
    It is surely certainly true that in Anglo-Irish
    relationships, Ireland has been more sinned against
    than sinning.
     

    As an Englishman I would have to express the view that this continuing
    wish to look backwards and seek redress for events of hundreds of years
    ago is one of the causes of the "Irish problem". It may be hard to
    forgive and forget, and impossible for wrongs recently committed but
    from decades ago?
    
    As to .2 I think you are wordsmithing, my dictionary gives apology as
    "regretful acknowledgement of failure" and shortcoming as "failure to
    come up to standard". He may not have used the word apology but he
    meant the same.
    
    Having said that if an apology would help and is justified then so be
    it. 
    
    Andrew

>    "I think a frank acknowledgement and expression of
>    regret from the highest level about the shortcomings
>    of the then British government's response to the

Brendan,

You are getting into semantics if you think that what he said
doesn't amount to the same thing: an apology for past wrongs!

I think what he's done is a cheap political stunt that does
no honour to the Famine and its victims.

                        James.

RTna 10/5/95 9:42 AM


Copyright 1995 Reuters Ltd.

    By Andrew Hill

     DUBLIN, Ireland (Reuter) - The leader of Ireland's biggest opposition
party called on Britain Thursday to  apologize for a famine 150 years ago
that killed a million Irish people and tore a nation apart.

     "I hope the British government, and I do mean the government, not the
British ambassador or a junior  member of the Royal family or churchman, will
grasp the opportunity," Fianna Fail leader Bertie Ahern told a  stunned Irish
parliament.

     He was speaking in a parliamentary debate on the 150th anniversary of a
famine caused by the failure of  the potato crop and what historians say was
neglect by the British rulers.

     "It was the single most terrible and harrowing event in Irish history, a
disaster without parallel in time of  peace in Europe in modern times," said
Ahern.

     The disaster caused millions to emigrate, the vast majority to the New
World of America, where some 30  million people now claim to be of Irish
descent.

     "Apart from 1 million deaths, it caused a population drop from 8 million
to 5 million at a time when the  population of the rest of Europe was
increasing," Ahern said.

     "I think a frank acknowledgement and expression of regret from the
highest level about the shortcomings  of the then British government's
response to the famine would contribute to a better climate of relations
 between Irish people or people of Irish stock across the world and the
British ...," Ahern said.

     He said such an apology would be in the spirit of an Anglo-Irish attempt
to heal wounds across the island  caused by the conflict in British-ruled
Northern Ireland which killed 3,200 before the Irish Republican Army  (IRA)
and their Protestant foes agreed ceasefires one year ago.

     Under a December 1993 Joint Declaration, the two governments pledged
themselves to "overcome the  legacy of history and to heal divisions," Ahern
pointed out.

     His appeal trod the path of a similar attempt by Britain to get Japan to
apologize for the treatment of War  prisoners in the 1939-45 conflict.

     Ireland is marking 1995 as a memorial to the famine, including concerts,
exhibitions and other events to  remind the nation of a disaster that helped
shape the country.

     Historians say British landlords helped starve millions by planting more
cash crops than the staple potato,  a change which created the famine when
the crop failed because of blight.

     Ahern said the famine also helped weaken the Irish language because more
than two million of those  who emigrated spoke only Irish. "The assault on
the Irish language was devastating."

     The government encourages the teaching of Irish in schools to keep alive
a crucial unifying force in this  nation of 3.5 million people, of whom less
than 10 percent use it daily.
  REUTER

  "His appeal trod the path of a similar attempt by Britain to get Japan to
   apologize for the treatment of War  prisoners in the 1939-45 conflict."

  That's right, that was British citizens who were mistreated, that's why
  an apology must be made.  Now the Irish are a different story, aren't
  they.

                             Mark

> I say lets have FF in overall majority next election, then we'll see
> some action.

We all know who you'll be voting for next time around :-).  I earnestly 
hope I never see FF in an overall majority again!  I think we saw
enough backhanders, political gamesmanship, corruption, intrigue etc to 
last us a lifetime when those guys were in power.  The current crop of 
FFers aren't any different, IMHO.

aside: anyone ever hear of TACA(sp?)?

James (who wouldn't vote for FF if they were the only party in the county).

    Re: .3
    I agree.
    apology=regretful acknowledgement of failure.
    Mr. Ahern wasn't asking the British government to apologize,
    or acknowledge their failure. He was asking for a regretful 
    acknowledgement of the _then_ British government's failure.
    If you want to call that apologizing, you may, but I'm simply
    pointing out that he's not asking the _current_ British govt.
    to shoulder any blame.
    
    As to looking backwards and seeking redress for events of hundreds
    of years ago being a cause of the "Irish problem", well if you don't
    learn the lesson of history you are doomed to repeat it, aren't
    you. The use of the word "events" in .3 seems to me to show exactly
    what the "English problem" is here. A belief that all the problems
    (and especially the injustices) happened in the past and are now 
    over. This patently isn't the case. The "event" of the plantation 
    of Ulster is patently the root cause of the current problems, 
    and it hasn't gone away by a refusal to acknowledge the past.
    
    The refusal to acknowledge and act upon past injustices is what allows
    these injustices to continue with us, simmering and festering.
    
    

    
    What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..I'm speechless!
    
    > I'd rather have a corrupt government who do some good than a corrupt,
    useless one...
    
    Thats what has been messing up this country for the last number of
    years...ie the times we had Fianna Fail in power. How can anybody
    actually ACCEPT ANY corruption in government. That attitude only encourages
    it.
    
    
   >only FF had the misfortune to get caught once too often !!!
    
    Misfortune!!!...for them yes..or us good news....and not  enough of
    them are behind bars..The day of nod and wink FF politics is going.
    
    Why not hear their attitudes on Divorce ??..Its a social issue..We hear
    enough rubbish from them at the moment about Crime etc etc...They
    did sweet all about it when they were in "corruption mode"..(granted
    God help us with ..that..that...that "article' of a justice minister we
    have now..)        
    
    
    rgs,
    
    mick

    
    
    ...and another thing about the famine....Theres some proposal to build
    a monument to the famine victimes..about $400,000 is budgeted for this
    
    This is a disgrace..take a walk down any town in Ireland and you can
    see abject poverty!!..Go into schools in deprived areas and you'll find
    Kids age 4 and 5  crying around 10:00am from pure hunger.(I have
    seen this)..Let them put that cash towards social improvments if they
    want to have a "monument"...An Irish political party asking The British
    government to apologize is choice given the social mess we have here
    
    rgs,
    
    mick
    
    

    $400 000 on a monunent to the famine victims is disgraceful
    overexpenditure is it now (why are we working in dollars,
    by the way)? If that's the figure, then it's not very high,
    is it? About 10c per Irish citizen, man woman and child.
    Or 40c per famine death, if you'd like it another way.
    
    How much does Dick Spring's government jet cost, do you think?
    How many Mercedes does the govt. own?
    

    
    
    $..cause I can't get the punt sign -) -) -)...
    
    No it may not sound a high figure but its a waste on a statue or
    whatever thing they want to build.. To Some of the combat poverty groups
    its a big budget...
    
    Spring..there is no point talking about...they disgrace the name 
    of labour...They spit on the working class..
                                                   
    

re: Ulster Plantation

A British Colony in the conquered� Irish lands, in the Northwest part of the
island.

It overlaps the modern day Ulster. What's interesting is if colony had
not got up and walked :-) the modern day troubles might have been avoided,
as there is a Nationalist majority within the original boundary. You often
hear that Ulster has voted to remain British, but that's only possible
because of Gerrymandering to draw the modern boundary.

Mark

� It is technically land obtained by conquest, as opposed to a Proprietary
   or Common Stock Charter (e.g. like Massachussetts) which were "unsettled"
   lands.


 

Btw, Bertie seems to think that there will be a response to his request. He
has apparently had some discussion with the British Govt. prior to his
announement.

    Tony Blair issued a speech, (read by the British Ambassador at the
    famine commemoration at the weekend), which expressed regret but was
    not an apology. It's about as near as Ireland is ever likely to get to
    an apology. The Irish Times had an article about it today,
    (www.irish-times.ie)....
    
    Ray....

    
    It will be interesting to see what eventually gets chiseled on
    all the Famine memorials being constructed in United States
    cities next year.
    
    The one in Boston is being designed by Shure (sp?). It will
    be situated in Downtown Crossing - the most traversed area
    in the city.
    
    George