Conference tallis::celt

     Now Eddie, why do you think that the UN would focus only on the
    Brittish Government for human rights violations when we all know that
    the Scots have been acting out for centuries themselves.
     Take for example yer insistance that everyone try haggis, at least
    once in their lives. And then to subject crowds of unsuspecting
    punters to Pipe bands. And what about that Burns fellow with his
    ramblings about `Jenny wi' the Mumps'. I personally was subjected to
    weeks of recitation of this poem by my wee son as he had to learn
    it for school in Ayr.
    
    
    
    
    :^))))))))))))))))))))
    
    regards,
    	Bob 

  Scotland should be granted a right to self-determination.  It's also
  interesting that the lack of a Bill of Rights is being brought up.
  Many people are under the false impression that Britain is somehow 
  a good example of a representative democracy, when in reality it is
  one of the worse.  Especially when it comes to ensuring the rights of
  the people under it's control.

 I wonder what the economic improvements would be for the people of
  Scotland once they jetison the union with England.  I'd expect to see
  less of the money from the north sea fields siphoned down to keep
  London afloat.

                        Mark

Interesting that the same people who support reintegration of Northern
Ireland also support devolution of Scotland...

Chris.

Re .3

Chris,
	You seem surprised at the consistency of views that both NI and 
Scotland should be freed from their shackles with England if the people
in these last remnants of the empire vote democratically to do so.
Perhaps you have listened to and believed the British government so long
now that you do not know what a consistent view is.

The British parliament holds itself up as "the mother of democracy" while
the Tory party sweeps to power with less than 30% of the vote. The British
Government bemoans human rights violations in Bosnia while its own card
is being marked by AI and the UN. The British Government does not want to
lose its sovereignty to the greater power of the European Union but it
tells Scotland that they are better off by being a part of the larger
community of the UK.

No wonder you are surprised by consistent views.

You also seem to be confused about devolution. To set the record straight,
I support full independence for Scotland. Given a choice of devolution or
independence I would choose independence. Given a choice of devolution or
the status quo I would choose devolution in the hope that it would be a
stepping stone to full independence within Europe.
    

re .4

sorry, I was just being awkward.  I really don't think that independance
for Scotland in such a bad idea; if this happened, one thing I'd also like
to see would be if England's long ignored Northern counties were given the
choice of who they wish to be governed by, as they have hardly prospered
under a series of such London centric governments.

Chris.

>in these last remnants of the empire vote democratically to do so.

Didn't Scotland haveone and voted for the status quo? Admittedly, this was
before 16 years of Tory rule and I dare say the sentiment is different
nowadays.  Personally, I like to see a devolution of power from Westminster
to all regions including Scotland & Wales.  The problem in England is how
to define a region.

>the Tory party sweeps to power with less than 30% of the vote

I think it was around 43% nationally actually.  Unless you mean only
Scotland.

>No wonder you are surprised by consistent views

Nobody expects consistent views from any politician, do they?

     I can't see how anyone could object to Scottish independence if it were
    voted for by a majority of those living in Scotland. I think that it is
    time that all governments and movements realise that is futile in the
    long term to make any distinct population remain or become a part of a
    larger state when they do not wish to do so, or for that matter leave a
    state which they wish to remain a part of.
    
                                  Dennis



from An Phoblacht/Republican News
news and views of the Irish Republican movement--Sinn Fein
July 20, 1995

***
                Britain stands accused in Geneva
                         BY LAURA FRIEL

     THE HEAD of Sinn Fein's International Department, Bairbre De
Brun, has been in Geneva this week to meet members of the United
Nations Human Rights Committee in advance of the Committee's
formal hearings on Britain's human rights record in
Ireland which take place on 20 and 21 July.

     Despite British attempts to curtail the remit of the
hearing, submissions by human rights groups and individual
victims remain a damning indictment of the British government's
role in the Six Counties.

     In Geneva De Brun is adding Sinn Fein's voice to a series of
submissions to the hearing critical of the British government's
record in the Six Counties. A submission from British Irish
Rights Watch identifies the right to self-determination as ''at
the heart of the conflict in Northern Ireland''.

     While Liberty's Alternative Report, acknowledges that the
Six Counties ''has been in a state of emergency since its
inception in 1922''. The Committee for the Administration of
Justice identifies the cease-fires as giving an unprecedented
opportunity to resolve the long-standing conflict and move to a
new era of peace and justice' and criticises the British
government's lack of response.

     British Irish Rights Watch (BIRW) is an independent
organisation, sponsored by Kader Asmal of the ANC and British
human rights barristers Michael Mansfield and Helena Kennedy
which has been monitoring the human rights dimension of the
conflict in the Six counties since 1990. Of all the submissions,
that of the BIRW is the most comprehensive and critical.
While for Liberty ''the extent to which the authorities may have
tolerated or promoted collusion remains debatable'' for the Watch
it is not ''merely a matter of perception: collusion has been
officially acknowledged''. The BIRW continues: ''Far from taking
rigorous measures to stem collusion, the UK government has
appeared to condone it by a series of official cover-ups, the
failure to publish reports on collusion, and the use of
public-interest immunity certificates at trials and inquests to
withhold information concerning collusion.''

     Meanwhile the BIRW is just as hard hitting when dealing the
use of lethal force in the Six Counties. Not only is ''the right
to life not adequately protected by law'', but Catholics have
also been the ''overwhelming majority of victims'' of the use of
lethal force by the British crown forces. Out of 348 killings by
the British army and RUC, 308 of the victims have been Catholics.

                           COLLUSION

     The US-based Lawyers Committee for Human Rights examines the
murder of the civil rights lawyer Pat Finucane and the role of
crown forces' collusion with loyalist death squads.

     While the CAJ acknowledges the British crown forces ''are
practically immune from facing the consequences of opening fire''
it is ''the attendant secrecy, lack of thorough investigation and
prosecution'' which reinforces the perception of extra-judicial
executions. For BIRW it is not simply a matter that ''de-facto
impunity has fuelled allegations'' of a shoot-to-kill policy.

     After in-depth research into 27 killings, the Watch
concludes that extra-judicial executions have been carried out by
British forces.

     Topically the BIRW identifies the routing of marches by the
Orange and Black Orders through nationalist areas as a violation
of Article 19 (3) (b). ''These Orders were established to defend
the Protestant succession to the British throne. The marches are
exclusively Protestant, are triumphalist in character and have
led to many outbreaks of fighting between unionists and
nationalists... who have been subjected to sectarian abuse,
assaults and smashing of windows etc. by some marchers.''

     The refusal of the British government to comply with
international rules governing the transfer of prisoners to jails
near to their families is highlighted by almost all of the
submissions.

     In 1992 MI5 was given primary responsibility for thwarting
the IRA's campaign in England. In its submission Liberty
questions the role of MI5, criticising the covert nature of its
operations and the use of entrapment to secure convictions.
Liberty is particularly critical of the increasing reliance on
anonymous prosecution witnesses and Public Interest Immunity
Certificates during trials orchestrated by MI5.


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    re .3
    Whats your problem with Scotland (or Ireland) being independant?
    
    And for any other welsh anglophiles who might be reading - just because
    someone wants thier people and culture etc. to be independant doesn't
    mean that they are a raving nationalist. It always amazes me how some
    of the English can't live and let live.
    
    rgds
    Mark

    re .9->3 Yeah okay sorry I just read .5