Conference tallis::celt

>     "For the life of me I can't understand why we are sending $29.6
>million (in 1996) to Northern Ireland,"  said Representative Dan Burton, an
>Indiana Republican. "This is a British problem."
    
    Quite right too. I don't see why the Americans give grants to Britain,
    one of the wealthiest countries in the world. NI is a British-made
    mess, they should pay to clean it up.
    
    Tony.

re .1

I hope that made you feel better, as that's about all that sort of
comment achieves.

Just an observation, I'd like to point out that the venomous anti-
British tirades that have become so popular in this conference have
only succeeded in alienating ordinary people like me, and the once
open-minded attitude toward the situation in Ireland is, for me, a
thing of the past, once the subject is broached I am now instantly
reminded of the Anglophobic rantings of the likes of Drotter and
Holohan and can not be sympathetic.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Hope you're happy with the results of your efforts.  I would be
ashamed.

Chris.

>...I'd like to point out that the venomous anti-
>British tirades that have become so popular in this conference have
    
    Can we not be critical of England's actions in NI without it being
    considered "venomous"? The truth is that England has terrorised the
    people of Ireland for years and still continues to do so. The real
    problem is that people in England don't want to hear about it, that's
    why there's usually such outrage at some of Mark Holihan's posts in this
    conference. Bad news is sometimes hard to stomach.
    
    Tony.

It's all down to presentation, really.  One can present the facts
either to debate and inform, or to point the finger of blame for
little more than personal gratification and moral superiority.  Many
of the postings, sadly, appear to fall into the latter category.

Chris.

 re. .2 and .4

  I find little personal gratification in having to point out the
 awful human rights records and oppressive legislation of the
 country I was born in.  I'm personally embarrassed at having been
 born in Britain.  The things that Britain has done in their dirty
 little war in north east Ireland are enough to make even the
 biggest anglophile blush.

  I have very little time or patience for any Britain who, having
 failed to read an Amnesty International Human rights report
 on north east Ireland, can open their mouth and condemn anyone
 who speaks out against the injustice perpetuated by the British
 in north east Ireland.


                      Mark



  



  

  
  

I have no problems with people pointing out the various aspects of
the situation in Northern Ireland, negative or otherwise.  I *do*
have a problem with the following:

	- people taking a one sided view, where one side can do no
	  wrong, and the other can do no right.  This applies equally
	  to the pro-British and the pro-IRA camps.

	- people using the situation as an excuse to slag me off for
	  being British.  I mean, I'm just an ordinary bloke, I treat
	  people as they are, no matter what their background.  I take
	  exception to people who won't apply the same common courtesy
	  to me.

As an (almost irrelevant) aside, perhaps it's also worth pointing out
my recent comment in another conference, that `Britain has been plagued
by a series of increasingly crap governments'.  I don't support very much
of their domestic or foreign policy, but what can an individual do about
it?  Bugger all, really.

Chris.

 re. .6

>I don't support very much
>of their domestic or foreign policy, but what can an individual do about
>it?  Bugger all, really.

 Wrong.  You can vote, you can write letters to your M.P., you can join
 a human rights organization that is trying to educate people on British
 misdeeds in north east Ireland.  Many of the folks who are protesting
 the actions of the British government in north east Ireland, have British
 accents.  

                           Mark

> You can vote, you can write letters to your M.P., you can join

when I think of my MP, that's one of the few times I think that
violence is justifiable in politics...

Chris.

    re .1 The amount of money to be put into the N.I. economy by the
    U.S. is extremely small compared to that which continues to come from
    Britain and the E.C. 
      I know that it would be breaking the habits of a lifetime but how
    about appraising yourself of the facts of the situation before airing
    your blind prejudices.
    

-1 <<< Note 1474.9 by BLKPUD::CHEETHAMD >>>

>    re .1 The amount of money to be put into the N.I. economy by the
>    U.S. is extremely small compared to that which continues to come from
>    Britain and the E.C. 
    
What's that got to do with it? NI is part of the EC and is therefore
    intitled to EC grants. My point is that why should the USA give money
    to aid NI when it's, as Margaret Thatcher said, as British as
    <some_part_of_England>? 
    
    >  I know that it would be breaking the habits of a lifetime but how
>    about appraising yourself of the facts of the situation before airing
>    your blind prejudices.
    
    You know nothing of the sort, I'm well aware of the facts. You're 
    typical of English people - can't take critisism of what your government
    does to the people of Northern Ireland.
    
    Tony.
    
         

  
    
>What's that got to do with it? NI is part of the EC and is therefore
>    intitled to EC grants. My point is that why should the USA give money
>   to aid NI when it's, as Margaret Thatcher said, as British as
>  <some_part_of_England>? 
    
   That's entitled, you're welcome   
        
  The US wasn't asked to give aid, it is giving aid to buy influence 

>    You know nothing of the sort, I'm well aware of the facts. You're 
>    typical of English people - can't take critisism of what your government
>    does to the people of Northern Ireland.
    
I'd say typical of people of any nationality.  Most people don't like
being criticised because of something or other someone else of the same
nationality may have done.  Your comment sounds as ludicrous as saying
that a typical Irish person is a gun-wielding mainiac because a small
minority belong to the IRA.

Chris.

re .12
        
>I'd say typical of people of any nationality.  Most people don't like
>being criticised because of something or other someone else of the same
>nationality may have done.  Your comment sounds as ludicrous as saying
>that a typical Irish person is a gun-wielding mainiac because a small
>minority belong to the IRA.

  Don't mind him, the poor soul is confused, he thinks that the majority 
belong to the IRA.

                               Dennis

 re. .11

> The US wasn't asked to give aid, it is giving aid to buy influence 

  Exactly, and that influence is to show the British government that
  aid can be given fairly (something the British government needs to
  learn how to do), because the U.S. aid is tied to the McBride principles.

  Sure it's only $50 million, but it shows the British government that
  aid should and can be given fairly.

                                 Mark

    re 1474.12 CBHVAX::CBH "Lager Lout"
     
    >>    You're typical of English people - can't take critisism of what
    >>your government does to the people of Northern Ireland.
    
    >I'd say typical of people of any nationality.
    You're probably right.
    
    >Your comment sounds as ludicrous as saying
    >that a typical Irish person is a gun-wielding mainiac because a small
    >minority belong to the IRA.
    That would be a ludicrous thing to say indeed but I don't see how you
    can twist my words to even come up with this statement. You've just agreed
    with me by saying that it's typical of people of any nationality.
    
    
    RE Note 1474.13  EASE::KEYES
    >     On the other issue..I do have a problem generalizing on British
    >peoples attitudes..and to say they are all to blame for their governments
    >faults.
    
    No one said that they were all to blame. I said that they don't like to
    hear criticism of their government's actions in Ireland.
    
    >    Alot of Folk in Britian HAVE worked to influenced change...Credit
    >where credit is due?
    
    Fair enough. There are some people like the Troops Out Movement trying
    to highlight the injustices in NI but they're are a VERY small minority.
    
    
    re Note 1474.14 BLKPUD::CHEETHAMD
    >  Don't mind him, the poor soul is confused, he thinks that the
    >majority belong to the IRA.
    
    You're new around here, aren't you Dennis. How can you make such
    sweeping statements without anything to back you up. What have they 
    been feeding you at these Tory party meetings??????
    
    
    Tony. 

    I know we are a long way from the base but...
    
    There are British people who are supporting various campaigns in NI. I
    am quite prepared to believe that no side has behaved 100% lillywhite
    over the last 25 years. I would suggest, though, that many British
    people are not unhappy with the actions of the British Government in
    NI. 
    
    Most british people would agree that a solution to the problems in NI
    has to be found, and the sooner the better. I'm glad the violence has
    stopped and people are talking. Is there a real solution on the horizon
    now? Or are we still in the situation that part of the population wants
    a united Ireland and part doesn't. If that is the case what is the
    solution, perhaps as seen from a long range vantage point?
    
    Andrew

    
>    You're new around here, aren't you Dennis. How can you make such
>    sweeping statements without anything to back you up.
    
 
   Not that new, I live and work in Warrington U.K., which enjoyed the 
attentions of the glorious republican freedom fighters at one time, I've 
visited Ireland, both North and South on numerous occasions for both work 
and pleasure in the last 15 years and, a little closer to home I've had
lengthy discussions, sometimes heated, with Mark Holohan in this notes file 
and Soapbox. Incidentally I must say for once that I agree with Mark's basic 
premise and his follow up on .15 regarding discrimination, although I would 
point out that British legislation has also attempted to end this, how 
successfully only people who actually live and work in both communities could 
say.     
   

>  What have they been feeding you at these Tory party meetings??????

Ooooh, I think that's libellous, expect to hear from my lawyers
    
                             Dennis

    re.16
    At least Dennis had the balls to work for Digital in the 1970'in Northern 
    Ireland when the trobles were at their height I then talk again.
    
    Not like most of you yellow bellies who are now flocking here because 
    the ceasefire is in operation.
    
    Gareth
    
    

    Where's this topic getting us?
    
    It too could go on for 25 years without resolution! 
    
    It appears to be a testing ground for cyber-mortars!
    

    re .19 thanks for that Gareth, I still remember sitting in your old
    office watching the goings on across the road while you guys where down
    south for your "Christmas do" :-)
    
    re .20 > It appears to be a testing ground for cyber-mortars!
    
    Guilty as charged I'm afraid, I normally try to be constructive if I
    have anything to add to this notesfile. Unfortunately sometimes I find the 
    anti-British rhetoric customarily employed by a very small number of
    contributors somewhat too irritating to ignore. As I have stated in
    previous replies I feel that the best way forward in N.I.is for everyone to 
    try to ditch the extensive historical baggage (both recent and not so
    recent) associated with the situation and to try to look forward and 
    to give support to all the participants in the peace process.
    I'll apologise if I've annoyed any innocent bystanders too much and
    withdraw gracefully (as possible) at this point.
    
                               Dennis