Conference tallis::celt

  Dave,

    That's because an Irish surname get's you second class medical
  care in a country that has a fifth rate medical system.  
    Now add to this the fact that most of the Irish who emmigrate
  to England are stuck with the the lower socio-economic jobs and
  it's no wonder their life expectancy is lower.


                     Mark

    I can't believe that the English hospitals and doctors (half
    of whom aren't even English) single out Irish people for lower
    care. Maybe you mean the health care system as a whole doesn't
    service minorities as well as the natives? 
    
    I know there is a huge percentage of the Irish nurses throughout
    both public and private hospitals in Britain. One irony is that
    many of the English prefer going to the Irish-staffed church-run
    hospitals (at least in London) because they know they will get
    more attentive care than in the public hospitals.
    
    There was a show on 60 minutes here in the US on British health
    care a year or so ago, which discussed how the affluent can afford
    better health care. But it's true in the U.S. too. Maybe it's on 
    a grander scale in Britain.
    

    
    I'm surprised that the statistics are still the same. I know that a lot
    of Irish that emigrate betwee the 1920's and 50' were in the
    construction business.  Between hardwork and too much booze and fights,
    many of them had short lives.
    
    I would have thought this would not still be the case in the 1990's.
    
    I also agree with George; its unlikely that the doctors and nurses in
    the public hospitals care (or even know) the ethnic roots of a patient.
    I suspect as stated, that the public care is real bad for everyone.

    You haven't been and gone and believed something Mark has written, have
    you ?            :-)
    
    My father was born in London in 1911 and he's still doing OK in spite
    of his Irish surname.
    
    I suspect the differences may be due to people from relatively poor
    countries (e.g. Bangladesh) having their life expectancy increased when
    they come to Britain, whereas people from more affluent countries don't
    experience the same somewhat dramatic lifestyle difference.
    
    Perhaps we ought to wait for the programme rather than going off at
    half-cock (not that I shall be seeing it).
    
    Anyone who believes that any sort of racial selection is performed on
    medical patients in Britain is absolutely potty !!
    
    Dave
    ====

    Sorry, mail crossed in the post with .3
    
    I think that rather a lot of the construction industry in Britain is
    still Irish; as to the booze and fights, I don't know what on earth you
    mean !                   :-)
    
    While the National Health Service may not be perfect (insert your
    exclamation  marks here) it managed to provide my dad with brain scans
    last year at what I suspect was considerable public expense, but it was
    completely free to him.
    

re .1,

I doubt it, half the doctors are foreign anyway.  The only people who
might experience second class treatment are those with your sort of
attitude.

Chris.

 re. .6

  Would that mean anyone who doesn't subscribe to the attitude that
  the Irish in Britain are there to booze and fight? These are the
  stereotypes applied not only by some noters in here, but also by
  the English doctors.   

 re. .4

  I have an uncle in a London hospital bed as we speak.  The English
  doctors who first looked at him in December managed to collapse
  one of his lungs.  Then they decided that he must have stomach
  cancer, so they sent him home with a nice packet of pills to keep
  him so doped up he couldn't even remember his own name. At his ripe
  old age of 64, the English medical system has no intention of
  helping him. 

                        Mark

    
    Well I don't about you, but I worked in London in the '70's during my
    college vacations and I saw thousands of the people like I described in
    my note.  Many people who had not contacted their families in 10/20 years
    and who wnt to the pub at 5pm every evening of their lives and spent
    every penny the earned.
    
    I'm not stereo-typing, I do believe that a lot of Irish don't fit that 
    role anymore, but they did and it did contribute to serious health
    and other problems.
    

re .7,

sorry to hear that.  It sounds a bit callous, but I know of English people
who've effectively been left to their fate by the wonderful NHS too.

re .8,

I think that this `Irish navvy' stereotype is exactly that.  Most of the
Irish people I've met in this country are either students or professionals.

Chris.

Back to the base note; does anyone know offhand the relative life
expectancies between Ireland and GB?

Chris.

    Has anybody seen the programme?!
    
    
    Thoughts on notes so far:
    "We'll all be ruined said Hanrahan before the year is out"

    >immigrate into England/Britain, only the Irish can expect a _reduced_
>    life expectancy as a result.
    
    It wouldn't be because they get arrested more often for possession of
    an Irish accent, would it? Or because they get thrown into jail and
    framed for bomb blasts because they're Irish, would it? It wouldn't be
    because they're the main targets of the anti-Irish PTA act, would it?
    
    No, of course not - it's because of the National Health Service.
    
    Tony.

    re .12
    
    Shoulder - see under "chip"
    

    I'll never know the answer to .0 as I'm losing my access to NOTES today
    due to a reorganisation (don't ask)...
    
    Ffarwel i chi bawb. Iechyd da...Yec'hed mat...slainte mhor !
    
    
    Dave
    ====

    Hey, have a good one Dave - give us a ring if you get
    to Boston. The Guinness is safe to drink in Boston... ;v)
    
    By the way, there are notes servers for Windows NT if
    you are losing access due to VMS going away.
    
    Regards,
    George  

                         *********************************


              IRISH PEOPLE OUTSHINE THICK BRITONS BY DEGREES'

PA   4/12/95 8:30 AM


  By John von Radowitz, PA News

   Irish people, the butt of countless "thick Paddy" jokes, had the last
laugh today -- when researchers  found evidence they are brighter than the
British.

     Young Irish-born men and women living in Britain are twice as likely
to have university degrees than their  British neighbours, according to a
new report.

   It revealed only 12.5% of white British people aged 18-29 had degrees or
similar higher level  qualifications, against 24.9% of Irish-born British
residents in the same age group.

   Those from Northern Ireland fared even better, with 32.5% of them having
higher level qualifications.

    But despite their educational achievements, Irish people in Britain
were twice as likely to be out of work  as other white people.

   The report, produced by Dr David Owen of the University of Warwick's
Centre for Research in Ethnic  Relations, was based on a survey of 1991
census figures.

   Dr Owen found 19.3% of male residents in Great Britain born in the Irish
Republic were listed as  unemployed in the census, as opposed to 10.7% of
all white men.

   People from Northern Ireland were slightly better off, with 12.2% of
their men facing the dole queues.

    The survey also suggested that when it came to offering work to
Irishmen, stereotypical attitudes still held  sway.

   According to the report 32.1% of all male employed British residents
born in the Irish Republic had jobs in  the construction industry. Only
12.5% of other employed white men worked in construction.

   Men born in Ulster had a much wider spread of occupational backgrounds,
with only 16.5% of them  working in this field.

   The Commission for Racial Equality is urging employers and health
providers to include the Irish in ethnic  monitoring programmes.

   CRE spokesman Chris Myant said: "Very little research has been done on
the Irish living in Britain.

    "We hope these findings will encourage people to pick up on the advice
we've been giving for some time  to include the Irish in ethnic
monitoring."

   He added: "We know that Irish people can suffer racial discrimination.
We've won cases for them in  industrial tribunals and courts. But we don't
know how much of a problem discrimination is for them as  compared with
black or asian people, or what areas of their lives it may effect."

   Mr Myant said the CRE was planning to publish its own research on Irish
communities in Britain in a year's  time.

A possible conclusion is that native Britons know what the
employment situation is in this country and consequently spend
their post school years looking for work, rather than swanning
about in higher education then expecting a job to be handed to
them on a plate.

Chris.

    re .16 
    
    What's the point of antagonising British people in general with
    this kind of stuff. Does it really help to make racist slurs ("Thick
    Britons"). Surely, it would be more productive to persuade the
    British to adapt to a positive (true) image of the Irish rather than putting
    our backs up, and goading people into coming out with even more anti-Irish
    shite like in note .17.
    
    rgds
    Mark

re.16:

The fact that Irish-born British residents are more likely to have a degree does
not mean they are any smarter. It might mean that many Irish people come to
Britain to take degrees, they need to take degrees to get work (due to
prejudice?), or perhaps many come to Britain to seek work after obtaining
degrees and thus skewing the data? 

High unemployment amongst Irish-born British residents is also expected as a
high proportion are employed in construction, which was one of the worst hit
industries of the recession. 

Dave.

    re: -1
    
    A considerable proportion of the Irish that go to Britain now already
    have degrees.  This is especially so in the case of the Irish
    professionals in London.  I do not believe that the Irish are descrim-
    inated againsty any more than other groups in the U.K., but they/we are
    descriminated against, as stated in previous articles.  The Irish have
    merely moved up and are less likely to be navvies than before.  By the
    way, calling Britons thick says more about the author than the Britons.
    
    Regards,  Ken Hanly, Dublin

> anti-Irish shite like in note .17.
    
excuse me?  It wasn`t intended to be anti-Irish (I even started the note
by saying that it was a *possible* conclusion, in case anyone tried reading
things into it)  Anti-student perhaps, I know, I was one once, and there
is an element of lazy spongers in colleges.

If I was to make a Holohanesque sweeping generalisation, you`d know about
it, but fortunately I don`t see the point.

Chris.

another question I`d like to raise is that of comparitive `discriminiation'
between Irish people and people from other regions of the UK who find work
in SE England.  This hadn`t really occured to me until someone pointed it
out, but after I moved from Newcastle, I can guarantee that within seconds
of me opening my mouth someone would come out with some really original
`thick Geordie' comment.  I`ve known interviewers suddenly become noticably
less interested when they hear my accent.

This seems to have lessened slightly of late, I`m not sure if it`s because
my accent`s diminished or if I`ve just grown oblivious, but IMO as the
prats aren`t going to go away, I feel it`s easier just to ignore them and
get on with life.

Apologies to those who`ve experienced real discrimination, and bollocks to
those who just like to moan.

Chris.

    re .21 
    
    The reply in .21 appeared to me to be a tit for tat, knee jerk response to 
    Holohan. I'm sure that you personally didn't intend it to be anti-Irish. 
    
    However, re .22
    
    Don't take this personally but, don't you get a sore arse from getting on 
    and off your fence all the time?
    
    rgds
    Mark

>    Don't take this personally but, don't you get a sore arse from getting on 
>    and off your fence all the time?
    
I don't get your point.  Can you elaborate please?

Chris.

    Re .2
    
    The NHS in the UK is free for everyone and on the whole provides a high 
    standard of care, especially as far as emergency treatment is concerned. 
    
    
    It is less satisfactory for elective treatment, where there are often
    long waiting lists, sometimes a year or more. As a result, an increasing
    number of people have taken out private health insurance and use this
    to bypass the waiting lists.
    
    Interestingly, many private hospitals do not have the backup facilities
    of NHS hospitals (eg 24 hour cover, intensive care) and rely on the NHS
    to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
    
    What is the standard of health care in America for those with no medical 
    insurance and without the means to pay?
    
    Dave

    re .24 Well, what do want to do? In .22 you seem, quite reasonably, to
    be opening a dialog on discrimination directed against people from
    other regions of Britain. Then you cancel it out by saying things like
    "just ignore", "bollocks to moaners" and so on. Do you want to see any
    replies on peoples opinions/experiences of discrimination in SE England
    or not? 
    
    Thats what I meant. 
    
    If you are interested, I watched the documentary which inspired this
    notes string and was disappointed that it didn't look at scots, northern
    english experience in London. IMO its not so bad for the Scots and
    Northerners. But things do happen. BTW I agreed with the program, which
    didn't question the existence of discrimination against the Irish. 
    The program makers seemed to have accepted that it was a fact.  
    The question was, what to do about it?
    
    rgds
    Mark

re .26,

I`m interested at the subject in hand; the `bollocks to moaners'
bit was, I agree, unnecessarily flippant, but was directed at those who
don`t really experience any problem but complain so loudly that people
who do actually suffer tend not to be noticed or taken seriously.

I guess I just get aggrieved by people with axes to grind who use the
misfortunes of others to make some sort of point.

About my comments about my own experience, I thought it was also worth
pointing out that I don`t consider myself to be particularly afflicted
by discrimination, or that I subscribe to the `well I`m alright' school
of thought, I`m just trying to draw parallels with my experiences so I
can perhaps understand the situation a little better.

Can you post a more in-depth summary of the program?

Chris.

    On the subject of discrimination against Irish living in the UK.

    First of all.  I'm Irish and glad to be.  I grew up in Dublin, and left
    in 1984.  Except for one excellent year contracting in Galway in
    1988, and tons of visits, I have lived abroad ever since (Saudi,
    England, France).

    It is my opinion that you will find a measure of discrimination, dislike,
    mistrust, etc., wherever you have outsiders entering a community.
    It is only question of measure.  Different societies deal with their
    prejudices in different ways, but how well people overcome their
    natural bias is a matter of education, character and experience.

    I have found that the English people I have met measure up very well
    in the discrimination stakes. I have encountered very little in my
    time there (there was the occasional a$$hole of course), and while I
    can't be certain, I feel I have been equally treated in the job market.
    Despite being taught to hate the English in school, I found that I
    liked them.  On the whole, I find them a very tolerant bunch.

    The French have made to feel very welcome, and perhaps with less
    reservations than the English - but this is understandable as there has
    been no history of aggression between the French & the Irish.
    However, the many north africans (Algerians etc.) here are treated very
    badly and are openly disliked.  I have never seen this kind of attitude
    displayed in England.
    
    In Ireland, the people are genuinely warm, friendly, fun-loving.
    They are well educated and hard-working.  They are rightly regarded
    as good, generous people.  However, I believe that there is a potential
    for discrimination in Ireland that you will no longer find in England.

    A significant part of the Irish population hate England and the
    English, though many have never lived in or even visited Britain.
    This will be explained away with history lessons, but it is not an
    acceptable excuse.  The "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" is not responsible
    for Cromwell's crimes.

    We don't see much open discrimination against other nationalities in
    Ireland because very few foreigners move here, but I believe many
    (not all) Irish people would be horrified if a black family moved
    next-door, or God forbid, if several black families moved into their
    neighbourhood.  The reason is that the Irish have no experience of
    living with foreigners and have not been educated to understand or
    value or accept them.

    The moral of the story - try to stop whinging about the English,
    they have largely gotten over their prejudices, we Irish have
    hardly begun.
    


    Cheers,

    Kevin.

 re. .18

  Mark,
     The point was to post an article detailing higher education levels
  for the Irish living in Britain.  Why are the Irish (who are better
  educated) twice as likely to be unemployed as other white males in
  Britain?  Surely they don't all have doctoral degrees and swing a pick.
  I find it more believable that the British tend to discriminate against
  their better educated neighbors.

     I wouldn't categorize all British people as being ignorant or racist.
  I've even known a few who, given enough time could pile up the big blocks
  and get a banana :-) Yes that was a smiley, and yes that was a joke.


                           Mark

    re .16
    
    As a piece of journalism it is awful, the report may be good or bad.
    eg
    24.9% of "Irish born British residents" 18-29 have degrees.
    19.3% of "male residents in GB born in the Irish Republic" unemployed
    
    Did you notice the completely different sample? If all the Irish women
    have degrees... Does Irish born include Northern Ireland?  Suppose
    18-29 year olds actually have more degrees than the population at
    large. Complete statistical nonsense.
    
    Why the emphasis on comparing to "white men"? If one wanted to prove
    ethnic discrimination then it would only be logical to include some
    data on other ethnic groupings.
    
    I would make the general observation that broadly two types of people
    in the age group 18-29 emigrate, those "professionals" seeking to
    further their career eg Doctors, Lawyers, Computer Engineers (?) and
    those seeking a way out of what seems a hopeless situation. As GB is a
    relatively easy journey from Ireland I would suggest that these two
    groups are well represented and that is probably what is being observed
    here.
    
    Don't get me wrong, I'm against discrimination everywhere. Just let's
    have some useful information to talk about.
    
    Andrew
    
    PS Any journalist who can't punctuate the title properly looses my
    vote.

    Re: -.1
    
    >    PS Any journalist who can't punctuate the title properly looses my
    >    vote.                                                    ^^^^^^
    
    And any noter who can't spell properly, loses mine.
    
    Are we to understand that if an author cannot spell or punctuate
    properly, then we should throw his arguments out with the missing
    apostrophes?
    
    -- Jim

    Yes, I fell to the death of those who criticise, and the PS was
    supposed to be a loosener!
    
    Perhaps I should just stick to reading through the Irish history notes
    to try and understand why the Irish are anti-English. Well, some of
    them.
    
    Andrew

    
    I wasn't going to write anything in this note but here are my thoughts
    on statistics.
    
    Quite simply, they can be made to tell any story.
    
    My experience is that anyone in England who either does not speak with
    the dialect of the region they are living/working or does speak with an
    accent in Southern England, will suffer some form of discrimination at
    some time. But then, that is not unique to England!
    As we've already seen, there is a huge gap in education in England
    where the top level education is very good and the rest is below
    average. Ireland and Scotland are both "statistically" :>) better off
    in that department. Therefore, the question is, how do you educate,
    uneducated English people to enable them not to be racist?
    
    I personally think that they have come a long way in the last ten years
    in coming to terms with their neighbours. I mean they are now heading
    north in their droves! Edinburgh has been voted the best place to live
    in the UK for the last few years! 
    
    One other thing I've noticed, they don't really understand Celtic
    culture, when you tell them to FOXTROT OSCAR, they actually think you
    mean it. :>))
    
    Bill