Conference tallis::celt

    I saw this report on the BBC News. And my impression is that it was
    a robbery that went wrong. It was interesting that no mention was made
    by the BBC of whether or not the post office worker that was killed
    was in any way connected with unionists. Or did I miss something.

    The murderers are well know IRA members.

    
   Re -1 >"The murderers are well known IRA members"
    
    This is unproven...2 people have been arrested in the vicinity ok who
    are alleged to have republican connections..I think we have to wait a
    while to see if they are charged etc etc.
    
    All parties including SF and the IRA themselves have said the incident 
    was totally wrong...(not much good to the poor Post office guy of
    course..whose digity we will now see slung around from politition
    to politition
    
    This has nothing directly to do with the ceasefire...with the exception of 
    identifying the fact that the sooner negociations start which include
    trying to get rid of all the guns etc etc in the North the better.
    The realse of IRA prisoners in the south has been halted pending
    clarification on the incident
    
    Mick
    
    
     
    

 re. .2

  Let's wait until the facts are in.

                  Mark

    
    
    .....Problems..Looks like irish Governemnt on verge of collapse
    ..Labour have walked over appointment of a judge!
    
    This was the last thing needed!
    
    Mick 

    re .4
    
    Mark you are prepared to take on board all kinds of S*** from your
    selected sources when it suits, but alas when true facts are reported
    which do not suit your cause then the you must "seek clarification".
    
    This shows you as the bigot that you really are !
    
    We now have another innocent Catholic victim who was only doing his
    days work,  murdered by  terrorists,  which can definitely not be put down 
    to "the Brits".
    
    
    Disgusted 
    
    Gareth 

  Fact:  Irish and British governments do not consider this a
         breach of the ceasefire.

  Fact:  Sinn Fein condemned this murder.
        
  Fact:  The IRA are investigating this tragic incident.

  Fact:  Those sources you refer to as selected come from various
         News organizations, the Irish Times, the Guardian, AP/RN,
         the Boston Globe, the New York Times, Amnesty International,
         Helsinki Watch etc. etc.  I'd call that varied.  Sorry if 
         I don't post British Army press releases.  Why don't you 
         supply us with them?


                                Mark

    
    As usual your facts are coated in your own spice
    
    SINN Fein REFUSED during press interviewing ( including CNN & ABC)
    to CONDEMN the murder and refused to do so but only conceeded that it was 
    an "UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT". 
    
    You should try living here for the true facts and not the crap
    that your country is being  fed. 
    
    As for British Army Reports, you seem to be privy to alot more of them 
    than we ever hear, judging by previous entries in this conference ,but I 
    dare say they have been edited to suit your tunnel vision,
    
    Get Real Mark !  
    

    well said that man!

 re. .8

  Sinn Fein committed no crime.  Sinn Fein
  immediately said the murder was wrong and tragic.

  The IRA, two of whose members are accused of the crime,
  is conducting an investigation.

  
>You should try living here for the true facts and not the crap
>that your country is being  fed.

  Most of what my country is fed regarding north east Ireland is 
  via the British misinformation service (located in D.C.) or 
  from Reuters reporters living in London.
  
  Now, can I ask you as a representative (I believe you said you were
  raised as a protestant currently living in Belfast),
  where were your condemnations of British government coverups
  while it's soldiers murdered nationalist in north east Ireland?
  Or does your condemnation only extend to Nationalist political
  parties?

                          Mark 

.8>    SINN Fein REFUSED during press interviewing ( including CNN & ABC)
.8>    to CONDEMN the murder and refused to do so but only conceeded that it was 
.8>    an "UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT". 

from news, as received down here (Italy), SF did condemn the murder

mf

    
    WRONG AGAIN MARK
    
    You obviously only read the parts of my personal profile which you
    wanted to hear.
    
    I have always condemned ALL violence in our community no matter who
    carried it out and will continue to do so. 
    
    Only this morning three personal friends of mine were held at gun point 
    with pillowcases over their heads while they were robbed of their days 
    takings from their business, and I would guess that this was carried
    out by so called "loyalist" connected thugs.
    
    
    So again Mark you surprise no one by your misinterpretation of facts and
    only hope that these short sighted, tunnelled visioned views do not
    extend to your work in DEC.
    
    A Peace Wanting Citizen of Ulster (Provincial connotations only)
    
    Gareth
    
    
     

  re. .12

  I've also seen a news report from British press saying that
  Sinn Fein condemned the attack.  Why is it, you live in
  Belfast, and you don't see these reports?  Or do you only
  see what you want to see?

  In any event, your note "CEASEFIRE ENDS???"  put in after the
  tragic murder of the postal worker (curious how you didn't
  create a "CEASEFIRE ENDS" note when the bombs went off on
  the train to Dublin, or when loyalist death squads murdered
  innocent Catholics after the IRA ceasefire, or when the
  British government boycott of the Forum for Peace.

  Well never mind, the peace process will hopefully continue
  anyways.

                              Mark
  
 

               Setbacks won't derail peace process
                         by Gerry Adams
              from The Irish Voice. Nov 16-22, 1994

              Gerry Adams is president of Sinn Fein


                     _______________________


A week is a long time in politics. Last Friday, Irish Taoiseach
(Prime Minister) Albert Reynolds convened what appeared to be a
normal fun of the mill cabinet meeting of the Dublin government.
In the course of the meeting, Mr Reynolds' partners in
government--the Irish Labour Party led by Dick Spring--left the
cabinet room. Since then the Dublin government has been in
crisis. Today, as this column goes to press, Mr. Reynolds is
preparing to address the Irish Parliament. It will be the most
crucial speech he has ever made because upon it hangs the future
of the coalition which he has led for almost two years.

The core of the dispute between Fianna Fail and Labour is about
the appointment of the president of the High Court. This position
was filled on Wednesday by the then Attorney General Harry
Whelehan, whose performance in that office is at the heart of the
disagreement. Particularly, Whelehan delayed for seven months the
extradition to the North of Fr. Brendan Smyth, a convicted
paedophile priest. It is the responsibility of the attorney
general to decide whether such warrants should be executed.

The accusations and counteraccusations involved in the
appointment may have made it impossible for the coalition to
continue with its business.

The role of the Dublin government in bringing the peace process
to its present point has been a vital one. That the government is
now on the verge of collapse is, I am sure, a cause of great
astonishment and bewilderment in Irish America.

Many people in the U.S. will share the wide-spread concern here
in Ireland at how the Brendan Smyth case was handled. I have
called for Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Spring to deal with this matted
with the urgency that it demands. That a convicted child molester
was permitted to go free for so long is a grave matter and one
which needed and needs to be tackled vigorously.

It would be wrong for this issue to be fudged or in any way side-
lined. It needs to be dealt with in its own right and it is the
job of the government not only to ensure this, but to ensure also
that they unite in tackling these issues. All this is
commonsense. It is also of vital importance at this delicate
stage of the peace process.

Whatever differences any of us have with the Dublin government--
and I have made it cleat that I disagree on a range of social,
economic and political issues-- this government has done more to
advance the search for an inclusive peace settlement than any
other Dublin government, ever. Part of the reason for the
advances which have been made lies in the focused way in which
the issue has been approached. This has been particularly
important, given the failure so far of the British government to
deal with the issues in a fitting manner.

It is now a cause of concern that this focus is going to be
dissipated as the government goes into a tailspin. This concern
is not restricted to the Six Counties. It is widespread
throughout Ireland. There is a fear also that even if the
government parties patch up their differences that this will be a
temporary advancement.

If the government falls now or late, there are two consequences.
There will be an election which no one wants, especially the
electorate, who are likely to deal harsh;y with whoever forces
such an inconvenience upon them. Or, there will be a ne coalition
formed between the other parties minus Fianna Fail.

By the time you get to reading this, some of these matter may be
clarified. For now, one thing is sure. Everyone, including, I
suspect, Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Spring, are astonished at how
quickly this crisis developed and deepened.

It is crucial for the success of the peace process that political
parties concerned to build peace set aside political differences
and resolve political differences. This is especially so when
these parties are in government.

The peace process requires a stable government applying itself in
a consistently focused way. Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Spring need to
have this firmly in mind as they plan their futures. They need to
resolve their difficulties and rise above their differences.

*****

The peace process was subjected to another setback when a postal
worker, Frank Kerr, was killed during a robbery in Newry last
Thursday. The RUC immediately placed responsibility for this upon
the IRA, and within two hours the Dublin government suspended the
release of nine republican prisoners.

While this is a temporary suspension--or at least it was before
the current crisis developed--the speed with which the RUC moved
without any evidence offered, and the speed with which Dublin
responded, is proof of how delicate the peace process is.

The killing of Frank Kerr and the action which led th his death,
no matter who was involved, is wrong. The IRA have said that the
use of arms has not been authorized since the cessation of 31
August. They have stressed that the cessation holds and that is a
complete one.

They have also instigated an investigation into the killing of
Mr. Kerr. This killing is a matter of deep regret for everyone
interested in the peace process. It is a grievous blow to the
Kerr family and a shock to the rest of us. It has also been
seized by some political elements in an attempt to set back or
hold up the next stage of the peace process.

This is unacceptable. Every effort should be made to move the
peace process forward. Any violent incident--and particularly a
fatal one-- should encourage all of us to redouble our efforts.
That is Sinn Fein's intention. Whoever was responsible for the
killing of Mr. Kerr, Sinn Fein's voters cannot be held
accountable and are not responsible.

We have a democratic mandate and are committed to building upon
that. This is what Mr. Hume and I agreed. This is what Mr.
Reynolds and Mr. Hume and I reaffirmed. This is the challenge
which faces all of us.

It is also a challenge for the British government. On Monday
night, John Major, speaking at the Lord Mayor's banquet in
London, confirmed the British government's decision to begin
talks with Loyalists. I welcome this.

It must be said, however, that nothing new was said by Mr. Major.
His contribution was a wholly inadequate one. Each of his
utterances on the peace process have been seized upon by the
British media and hyped as being of great significance. Yet when
one reads what Mr. Major has said, there is no difference since
his last speech or the one before that, and there has been no
movement by London to begin talks.

Sure, he has agreed to them in principle and he has reasserted
this on the above occasions, but he has yet to set a date or to
begin the process of even talking about talking. It would be of
little surprise to you, therefore, if my response is unchanged as
well.

Mr. Major must move beyond the rhetoric. Real talks led by both
governments and involving all the parties are the only way to
move forward. Bi-laterals are important, but they are secondary
to substantive dialogue which deals with the core issues.

I am off to London this week. This is one of the matter I will be
raising during my visit.

(this was written before Reynolds addressed the Dail on Tuesday.
Reynolds has since resigned as Prime Minister.)


                         ______________

                         The Irish Echo

                       editorial offices:
                       432 Park Ave South
                           Suite 1503
                       New York, NY  10016

                        subscriptions to:
                          P.O. Box 686
                  Sicklerville, NJ   08081-9905

                      subs: $25.00 per year

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     The IRA have now admitted that the robbery and murder were carried out
    by members of the organisation on an "authorised mission". They go on
    to say that the authorisation was not from the highest levels of the
    organisation and blame "problems in the chain of command".
    
                            

    re.13
    
    Mark, 
         as I have said before I have always condemned all violence  from
    whatever side it comes from, but now that we have a time of peace in
    the province what we are seeing is that the "cause" ( be it Nationalism or
    Unionism) has in some cases only been a front for Mafia style crime.
    
    I would also concede that it was wrong of me not to comment on the bomb
    in the Dublin train. As a frequent user of that train I thought it was
    a crazy act of terrorism .
    
    
    I do believe , however, that there is a genuine will for peace within the 
    Sinn Fein leadership. The perception here in the last few days is of 
    a growing detachment of Sinn Fein from the IRA. The question now being
    asked here is whether Sinn Fein can influence the IRA long enough to
    bring a lasting peace.
    
    This was evident last night when the IRA announced that they had carried 
    out the raid on the Newry Post Office Depot but that it had not been
    authorized at a high level. They said in their statement that the loop
    hole in their line of communications had now been fixed.
    
    Lets hope that the Newry killing will be the last.
    
    I would like to balance this reply with some " Loyalist " views, but
    with the Irish leadership news their is no room in the papers for them.
    
    Other reported News from the Sunday World ( printed in Dublin )
    
    Gerry Adams visited the Palace of Westminster on Friday met a few
    British MP's. Shook a few hands etc, etc,. Said that he regretted the
    death of the MPs in Brighton along with all Irish Nationalist Deaths in
    Ireland.
    
    Paisley is quiet ( for a change.)
    
    The Chairman of the SDLP is retiring next year 
    
    
    That was the news this weekend
    
    Gareth
        

Gareth, don't even bother trying to reason with him.  He's always right,
everyone else is always wrong, and we're all totally ignorant compared
to his vast knowledge of everything.

Chris.

re. .16

 Gareth,
   Perhaps you have condemned all violence from whatever side, but you've
 been pretty quiet in here (by your own admission now) when the violence
 was directed against the Nationalist community, be it by loyalist death
 squads or their friends in the British security forces.

   Looks like we both agree that there is a genuine effort by Sinn Fein
 towards a lasting peace.  My concern is that it's missing from the
 British government, as evidenced by their boycott of the peace forum,
 and their refusal to immediately enter talks with the democratically
 elected representatives of all parties.

                                    Mark

    
    Mark,
         where do you believe Sinn Fein sit in the Political Spectrum ie.
    
    Left, right, centre etc ?
    
    Gareth

>         where do you believe Sinn Fein sit in the Political Spectrum ie.
Am I missing the matter ? 

>    Left, right, centre etc ?
left, isn't it ?  but is this so relevant to Brits ?

mf

  re. .19

  I'd call them progressive.
                                
                         Mark

    re. 12
    
    Mark,
         the following is verbatim of a live interview on local TV last
    night in connection with Martin McGuinness's appointment to head the Sinn 
    Fein delegation to the talks with Britain.
    
    Interviewer: Mr. McGuinness do you feel that the IRA killing in Newry
                 will hinder these talks.
    
    Mr McGuinness: No.
    
    Interviewer : Why has  Sinn Fein insisted in not condemning the killing
                  of the Newry postal worker. 
    
    Mr. McGuinness: Sinn Fein is not in the business of  'Condemnation 
                    Politics' and we cannot therefore condemn the actions 
                    of the IRA.
    
    
    
    I have a video recording of this interview if you would like a copy.
    
    Your Brit. sources must be suspect Mark!

    re .20 
    
    > left, isn,t it ? but is it relevent to Brits.
    
     I would say, Less relevent to Italians given your recent election
    results!
    
    Gareth

    
    SF still seem to have a way to go before becomming accepted as a player
    in the political area in the WHOLE of Ireland. Like it or not they are
    still views as a single policy party...ie on Northern ireland. ( This 
    maybe due to the past restrictions on us not HEARING any other policys that
    they have)...I know they certainly are active...and well supported.. on 
    social issues at local government level.
    
    However they are ambigious towards EC membership...I am not sure if
    SF are still anti EC or not???...though they still refer to possible
    funding as part of rebuilding Northern Ireland
    
    Also in the recent events in the south which caused the downfall of
    Mr Reynolds...SF restricted themselves to comments on how this would
    affect their acceptance at the peace table...rather than comments on
    the actual dishonesty that went on. 
    
    There is much injustice/corruption/dishonesty in Southern Ireland which
    is not helped by the "stale" party political structures we have...If
    Sinn Fein want to grow and be accepted the last thing they should do is 
    copy the ones already there....
    
              
    
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Mick,
         I would agree with you that SF are marketing very well their
    concerns for social issues in the local councils and their marketing
    for peace is very well orchestrated. 
    
    The Republic's flag is even missing from their Street posters. 
    
    However in a previous reply to Mark I asked the question where does SF
    stand in the political spectrum and I got a 'cop out' reply. ie.
    Progressive.
    
    Progressing where to, I ask ?
    
    The main parties up here to my mind fall as follows:
    
    Workers Party 	Left
    
    SDLP 		Centre Left
    
    Alliance 		Centre
    
    Official Unionists  centre Right ( note the small 'c' )
    
    DUP 		Extreme Right 
    
    So where does SF fit?
    
    Where do the PD's fit down with you Mick ? 
    
    It was interesting to here a voice from Italy say SF were left.
    
    Are we to be a Marxist state ?
    
    I know from working and travelling in the Republic that on the whole
    the politics are to the right ( Try and short change a Cavan or
    Donegal man !)
    
    P.S. or a Ballymena man
    
    So how are SF realistically expecting to have their voice heard in a
    United Ireland where approx. 50%+ of the North East are right wing and
    50%+ of the rest is right wing (FG + FF).   
     
    rgds
    
    Gareth
    

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
17 November 1994


COALITION CRISIS RAISES NATIONAL ISSUES
by Hilda Mac Thomas

The Dublin government's current crisis over the appointment of former Attorney
General Harry Whelehan to the office of president of the High Court, has
raised a number of issues for the Irish people as a whole.

Whelehan cuts an anachronistic figure -- wealthy, keen on yachting and
hunting, a very much conservative Catholic.  His office's seven-month delay in
processing the RUC's request for the extradition of paedophile priest Father
Brendan Smyth is scandalous, regardless of the reasons invoked by Whelehan in
his written response to the cabinet's questions.  "Unlikely to re-offend" is
not a proper description of Father Smyth's disposition given the facts of the
case as they came out in TV interviews with a survivor of his abuse, given
also the mounting evidence of the extent of child abuse meted out by adults in
positions of power, such a priests.

It was fair to contrast the laid-back treatment of the Smyth case with the
speedy response of the Attorney General's office in the "X" case, in which a
14-year-old girl had got pregnant as a result of abuse and her parents were
planning to bring her to England for an abortion.  From the perspective of
abuse survivors, Harry Whelehan has shown no empathy with their plight
whatsoever.  And if the "Whelehan-Smyth crisis" , as it has been labelled in
some newspapers, can lead to some serious rethink of legal procedures in such
cases, so much the better.

But the crisis goes deeper that a difference of opinion over the suitability
of a judicial appointment.  Coalitions the world over sometimes produce
strange bed-fellows.  In Ireland they always do.  For decades the only
alternative to Fianna Fail in government was a coalition of the ideological
right -- Fine Gael, with the Labour Party.  They have always resulted in a
loss of credibility and votes for Labour, associated with unpolular
belt-tightening economic policies, while Fine Gael seemed to don the mantle
of liberalism on social issues -- see the failed "constitutional crusade" of
Garret Fitzgerald in the early '80s.  Where both Labour and Fine Gael
converged was in adopting a prounionist stance on the national question and
related issues of repression.

The latest coalition, Fianna Fail and Labour, was a historic first.  On
economic issues there was less of a yawning gap between the populist Fianna
Fail and the social democrats of Labour.  But the common denominator in all
coalitions is of course political survival and holding on to power.  In the 26
Counties, all major parties regardless of manifestoes practiced on the ground
the politics of clientelism, of "strokes" as they call the grace and favour
handed down to voters in return for continued support.  Little wonder that the
southern electorate feels mainly apathetic, disaffected and cynical.

Analysing ideological differences in southern politics is a tricky business.
Political stances differ wildly depending on whether any of these parties are
in government or in opposition.  The roots of these parties' ideologies lay
very firmly in the terrain of the post-1916 national struggle which led to the
Civil War, the Treaty, partition, and the formation of two ultra-conservative
statelets North and South.  The difference between Fianna Fail and Labour in
that respect is illustrated by the fact that, apart from the Whelehan-Smyth
case, the only other time when Labour leader Dick Spring threatened to resign
was last August.  "I am not going to be part of any government which is
negotiating with Sinn Fein in the hope that violence might end."

Opinion polls concerning questions such as the peace process, attitudes to
Sinn Fein for example on censorship, or even Irish unity as a political goal,
have consistantly produced surprising results.  Surprising not only because of
the huge majority of people in the South who wish to see Ireland reunited, in
spite of two decades of media disinformation, but surprising also by the fact
that the desire for Irish reunification crosses party boundaries, and in
particular that Labour voters were just as likely to want a united Ireland as,
say, Fianna Fail voters.  In fact, in some past opinion polls, even more so.

The current peace initiative led by Gerry Adams, John Hume and Albert Reynolds
has enthused Irish nationalists North and South and allowed the debate to
begin on the shared future of the people of Ireland.  Nationalism in the 26
Counties has come out of the shadows where decades of partition and more
specifically, repressive laws, media  disinformation, censorship and
revisionism had confined it.  There was always a latent nationalist feeling in
the South.  It emerged in times of crisis such as Bloody Sunday in 1972 or the
hunger strikes of 1980-81.  But now, Irish nationalists have a new political
confidence about them.

In his apologetic speech in Leinster House last Tuesday, Albert Reynolds
argued that the current crisis should be resolved amicably as the peace
process needed continuity.  The "biggest breakthough in 25 years" as he
called it, should not be jeopardised on a single judicial appointment.  There
is undeniable concern among Irish nationalists that a general election might
waste up to two months and bring to power an even more disparate coalition of
parties whose common ideological denominator is their neo-unionism.

Northern unionists may well be praying for such a change.  The British
government, strangely enough, is not.  Frank Miller in Tuesday's Irish Times
noted that one of the British government's considerations in the current
crisis is that any "comprehensive deal" -- that is from its point of view, a
deal which includes an amendment of Articles Two and Three of the 1937
Constitution -- can only be carried through if it is underwritten by Fianna
Fail.

When considering whether a Fine Gael-led coalition would damage the Irish
Peace Initiative, one must also remember that when in government, all
26-County political parties have all shown themselves at once more reactionary
on human rights (under pressure from Britain), on social reform (under
pressure from the Catholic Church), on the economy (under pressure from big
business), but also more careful in confronting nationalism, latent or
otherwise, than their voters.  "Reactive" is possibly the best way to describe
them.

Let us not forget that former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader Garret Fitzgerald
did the British government's bidding in 1980-81 during the H-Block/Armagh
hunger strikes.  Three years later, in the wake of Sinn Fein's election
victories in the North, he also set up the New Ireland Forum, which, although
Sinn Fein was excluded, reported that Irish nationalists preferred a united
Ireland.  Some other arrangements were explored, as was the "reality" of the
unionist veto.

The debate can now be resumed, this time with republicans.  Whether it is
presided over by a Fianna Fail-led or Fine Gael-led coalition might not in the
end matter that much, if Irish nationalists keep up the momentum behind the
Irish Peace Initiative.  There can be no return to partition as it has
operated for over 70 years.

But at the same time, republicans, far from arguing for integration of the Six
into the 26 Counties, with its social conservatism and political corruption,
want the debate to address the type of Ireland which is to be built.  And
issues of democracy, open government and accountability which emerged during
the Whelehan-Smyth affair are very relevant to the debate, as is the current
controversy over the legislation being prepared on the question of abortion
referral, and indeed the as yet unresolved question of civil divorce.

The current peace process must continue as a priority, as a matter of national
interest.  So must the debate on the shape of a future Irish democracy.

    
    re .25
    >However in a previous reply to Mark I asked the question where does SF
    >stand in the political spectrum and I got a 'cop out' reply. ie.
    >Progressive.                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
    Gareth , get used to it . There's a lot more cop-outs to come from
    Mr. H. Look over the last few replies in this note as an example .
    
    as you point out he hasn't answered your initial question on SF. He
    hasn't answered you on your `Brit Sources?' reply preferring instead to
    have a dig at Varese::Franzoni and at the second time of you asking
    for an answer on where SF stands he replies withanother diatribe from
    An Phoblacht which as usual talks a lot and says nothing.
    
    If I'm lucky , Mr H. will disregard this note and get back on track
    with you . however I feel I may be unlucky :-((
    
    F.    

    re. 26
    
    An informative article Mark and I understand all the sentiments expressed
    in it.
    
    What do you think of Dick Spring's statement yesterday that 'articles 2
    & 3 will need to be either removed or modified to maintain a lasting
    peace in our island?'
    
    
    

AS Mauro suggested earlier..SF would be considered to be a left wing party 
I don't think there is much doubt about that....though Marxist would be
stretching it....(there is Zero with a capital Z..chance of any party
in Ireland running under Marxist policys been taken anyway seriously at the
present time (or ever..)
                   
Gareth, Re the position of the parties here under left-centre-right
                                           
In the South....
             
Fianna Fail       Right
Fianna Gael       Right
Labour            Centre left (..moving right depending on month of the year!!!)
PD's              Right  (ex-Fianna Fail folk...but with a touch of honesty -)
Democratic left   Left

Those are the present government parties. SF and the Greens could probably
be considered left and centre respectively. So as you suggest  the vast
majority of representatives in the 32 counties are right wing. The democratic
left party are the only left wing party..They have about 6% support and growing
Its interesting to note that these guys were of course ex SINN_Fein members
before they split over whether the way forward should include the gun or not.

I guess the only way of comparing parties like with like would be to see
which grouping each party is aligned with within the EC parliament but I am
unsure of the facts. 
.....
It is interesting that on fundamental economic policys both the main Northern
and Southern parties are similar. On Social policy we in the south are weak
..and only slowly stumbling forward.. We are CURSED with a constitution which
was not just written with a legal viewpoint but with the Catholic church
viewpoint...which means any common sense social policy which we look for 
is more often than halted if the catholic church see it as against THEIR
beliefs....

rgs,

Mick (born a catholic)

    Mick,
         thanks for the info. and we obviously agree on where Ireland as a
    whole stands politically. I was certainly sticking my tongue firmly in
    my cheek when I suggested a 'Marxist State', given it's rejection on mass
    in Eastern Europe.
    
    I was surprised recently when doing some consultancy recently in a
    factory outside Dublin to find that they were manufacturing the
    contraceptive pill and had been for some years.  Someone turned a blind
    eye there!!
    
    Thanks again for the info.
    
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

    
    Well the contaceptive thing as died down abit..ie condom machines in
    pubs etc etc is the norm rather than rare...Then again a factory
    making contacteptive pills...I am surprised there is no picket on the
    door from the church folk...
    
    Articles 2 and 3 will be a serious bone of contention...I believe that
    some modification will have to be made. I don't know what. They
    certainly..as they stand...are a red-rag to the unionist community..but
    are also held in high esteem by the nationalists...who see it as
    safeguarding their national aspirations..
    
    The fact is that at present they mean absolutely nothing from a
    practical point of view...and I think that a modification will not
    be opposed even by SF...They are carefully distancing themselves from
    the notion that we must have "the six-counties back"...as the article 
    Mark entered earlier shows in the final paragraph.
    
    A possibility will be joint changes in both the Irish Constitution and
    the Gov of ireland act from the British side..with a view to enshrining
    some element of EC law to get over this impasse.
    
    What is unforthunate is that some Polititions from North and South will 
    drag this up as a "no surrender" item. I do believe that that day is
    going away and people know that a few sentences don't put food on
    your table nor is it not worth killing,dying or been jailed for.
    Its good to see some of the more extreeme elements realising
    this...What folk down here would like to hear MORE of is the views of
    folk on the political side of the Loyalist paramilitary wings. I am
    sure Mr spence and is co-party members have alot to say..
    
                                   
    
     
    

    Mick,
         you are not the only people who would like know what the Extreme
    Loyalist parties have to say.
    
    They came out of the woodwork to announce the Loyalist ceasefire with
    party names that I had never heard of before.
    
    They went to the States - came back and said that the only thing they
    learned over there was, 'That Sinn Fein and the IRA had not the support
    in the States that the Loyalist people believed they had, and that Gerry
    Adams had been snubbed by the media over there. That's the propaganda
    we were fed anyway.
    
    And we haven't heard of them since only to hear that they are willing to
    talk to SF. ( What about I wonder?)
    
    I have just had a quick look through todays News Letter ( Unionist )
    and the Irish News ( Nationalist )  and haven't seen one reference to
    them. 
    
    If they come out of hiding I'll let you know what they have to say
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth
    

    
    Mick, 
         just a comment on one other interesting point which you
    made. 
    
    It is interesting to note your believe that the Catholic church still
    has a strong influence on the Irish Government this of course is the
    stuff that gladen's Mr. Rent a Mouth's, sorry Mr. Paisley's heart. We are
    all on the way to Rome he says...........
    
    It is interesting however to compare his views on Abortion etc and that of
    the Catholic Church and what we find is that they are very similair..... 
    
    How can anyone outside Ireland hope to understand us,, especially 
    reformed 'Brits.' living in the States!!
     
    I remember having a long discussion on the troubles back in the late
    70's with Digital's first Sales Director in Ireland, ( he is no longer on 
    this earth I'm sorry to say ) who made no bones of his Nationalist views. 
    But what he said made me think!
    
    What he said was,
    
    'If only Ireland had not been so hell bent on leaving the Commonwealth,
    I believe we would have been united long ago'
    
    Certainly food for thought, and when you look at how the British
    Commnwealth has lost it's hold on it's former strong members, maybe 
    Linfield would be playing Gaelic football by now!
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

 
   
>    What he said was,
>   
>    'If only Ireland had not been so hell bent on leaving the Commonwealth,
>    I believe we would have been united long ago'

Ireland always has been united. It's only partition in the 1920's that
has torn it apart.

The Harcourt Parliament didn't want to leave the Commonwealth but that
didn't stop British attempts to destroy the independence movement. If
Protestant Republicans hadn't been so gullible then we might have  been
celebrating a bicentenial soon! What might have been ...

Mark

 

>    > left, isn,t it ? but is it relevent to Brits.
>    
>     I would say, Less relevent to Italians given your recent election
>    results!

You may have missed the results here, they were right (and far right) wing
down here, with little spots for center-left at last week local elections.

I knew Ireland was conservative (not that much as I lernt in replies here)
and of course I expect a left-wing party has low power and voice... but yet
I think it has the right to speak, expecially in a critical process like the
one Ireland is into.

Something similar it is happening in Italy, where the constitution is under
discussion for a review and the right-wing government is likely to exclude
the center and the left from the constitutional assembly...

As to associating the left to Marxism, there are many touches betwen
welfare and (former) communist-dictatorship...

mf

    
    re. 34 
    
    OK Mark so maybe he said 'RE-UNITED' and God bless the gullible
    Presbyterians!
    
    Gareth

    re. 35
    
    Sorry mf I think we are missing something in the translations, the
    point I was making was that based on the right wing shift in Italy then
    Left had less relevence in Italian politics.
    
    Whereas, given the political suicide mission which the Conservative 
    Government ( right wing) are on at the moment then left wing 
    politics may become more relevent here.
    
    Sorry for causing confusion
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth .
    
    P.S. It will be interesting to find out the breakdown of the vote next
    Monday in Westminster, since the Official Unionists have  said that
    they will vote with the Government. But will the SDLP vote with Labour
    and try to topple the Government and take another Prime Minister out of
    the peace process. ( I'll say it for you MH,' He was never there!')
      

    
    I have been questioned in the Belfast office as to why I replied to 
    Mark's 1405.26 reply by saying that it was a better balanced article. 
    This questioning was by a Celt ROM (Read Only Member), Yes there are 
    quite a number of Belfast employees who I know earywig in here!! To 
    be democratic I will answer you all here. 
    
    As some of you may know I am paid vast sums of money by Digital, ( a 
    view held only by everyone but me), as an Analytical Troubleshooter 
    (Kepnor Trego & Corporate Review Board approved). This gives me the 
    skills to solve mysteries and jump to conclusions without fear of 
    being wrong. All with the minimum amount of facts and without the aid 
    of a safety net!
    
    So lets analyze Mark's reply article: 
    
    >Whelehan cuts an anachronistic figure -- wealthy, keen on yachting 
    >and hunting, a very much conservative Catholic.  
    
    Conclusions: 
    
    Sinn Fein ( and Mark ? ) are left wing and therefore confirms Mick's 
    previous reply.
    
    It is wrong to be wealthy.
    
    They (he) suffers from seasickness.
    
    They (He) are Anti-Hunt Saboteurs ( Don't return to Britain there is 
    a new law against it.)
    
    But then how can Mark justify working in what was one of the most 
    cash rich companies in the USA?
    
    He also, (by his own admission see note 1405.135), admits to living 
    from the spoils of British Colonialism in New England and also 
    justifies it by saying that long dead Native American's won't come 
    back and claim their land. A true Leftie.
    
    I hope I get to keep my ex-plantation farm after the revolution !  
    
    
    
    >His office's seven-month delay in processing the RUC's request for 
    >the extradition of paedophile priest Father Brendan Smyth is 
    >scandalous, regardless of the reasons invoked by Whelehan in
    >his written response to the cabinet's questions.  
    
    Here we find my justification to the word 'balanced', for  here we 
    find the 'Piece de Resistance'. By publishing the above paragraph 
    Mark has given credibility to our police force (RUC). Now the RUC are 
    the authority needed to deal with crime, one small step and all that. 
    This is the first time I have seen him do this and proves that the 
    peace process is moving forward.
    
    I also conclude from the above paragraph that he doesn't approve of 
    the leadership within the Catholic Church, so he and Paisley are also 
    on the same wavelength. Yes peace is just around the corner. 
    
    
    So to all of you out there who accuse Mark of not answering the 
    question asked, I say , ' Look deep your answer is there '
    
    Good Hunting
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth (2 + 2 = 5)
    :-)

    
    Gareth, I admire your faith in holohan's notes but the fact is, digging
    deep is no good, they are not his words. If they were, we could have
    some faith in them.
    What he does demonstrate, is that his grasp of the problems in NI are
    so far removed from reality that it becomes a nonsense even trying to
    find common ground with him.
    
    Earywigs? love it. :>)
    
    Bill

 re. .28

   Gareth,
     I believe that the recent complaints over articles 2 and 3 are a
  smokescreen.  How would selling the nationalist community down the
  river, and accepting British partition help the peace process?

     I also believe that the Irish constitution will need to be
  rewritten as part of a solution.  Many of the progressive ideas
  put forth by Sinn Fein should be incorporated into a new consitution.
  A consitution that respects the wishes of the majority of people in
  Ireland, yet guarantees the rights of every individual.  In the U.S.,
  it's called the Bill of Rights.

     On the subject of condemnation that you reintroduced.  I'd like to
  ask you when was the last time you heard the British government condemn
  the actions of it's security forces in north east Ireland?  Amnesty
  International and plenty of other human rights organizations had no
  trouble condemning British security forces actions.  Why didn't the
  British government?

 re. .38
  It's a shame Gareth, for a while there you had stopped talking rubbish.
  Well, if that's how you have to keep the read only noters in the Belfast
  office happy, so be it.

                        Mark

   
  

  Why does Britain try at every step to subvert the democratically
  elected representatives?  How does this help the peace process?

                           Mark




                             Irish Echo
                           Nov 23-29, 1994

                       Battle Raging Over Adams:
                 British oppose tour to fill part coffers

                           By Ray O'Hanlon

A battle for President Clinton's support was being waged this weekover
the issue of whether sinn fein's leader, Gerry Adams, should be allowed
to tour the United States while raising funds for his party.

Adams is due in the US on Dec 7 for a week-long visit expected to take in
New York, Philadelphia,Boston, Chicago, San francisco and Los Angeles.

A primary purpose of the trip is to raise money in conjunction with a new
group currently being formed in New york, the friends of Sinn Fein.

Opposition to an Adams fund-raising tour is coming from the British
government and from with in [sic] the Clinton administration itself. That
opposition is centered in the State and justice departments, with
specific objections having been raise by the FBI.

"There are some in the State Department who still don't want to offend
the British, no matter what," a Washington source said.

Leading the effrot to allow Adams to raise money are Sens. Edward Kennedy
of Massachusetts and Chris Dodd of Connecticut. A spokeswoman for Sen.
Kennedy told the Echo that any fundraising for Sinn Fein would be very
controlled and publicly apparent.

"If you want Sinn Fein to act like a constitutional party you should
treat them like one," the spokeswoman said.

It is understood that arguments along these lines were expressed by Sen.
kennedy when he raised the issue last weekend with White House Chief of
Staff Leon Panetta. Aruments in favor of Adams also point to his
groundbreaking visit to Britain last week during which he attended a
function that raised money for Sinn Fein.

While there is no legal prohibition on Adams or anyone  raising money in
the US once certain requirements are observed, Adams is exposed to
possible conditions being attached to a renewed waiver of the visa ban
that still exists against him. It is certain that the British will be
making strong representations for restrictions on the grounds that the
IRA is still holding its arms and is using them, as was the case in the
recent robbery and killing  at the Newry, Co Down post office.

Adams condemned the attack, but observers say the robbery could not have
been more badly timed from Adams's and Sinn Fein's point of view.

Meanwhile, New York attorney Brian O'Dwyer said he was now "in the middle
of dealing" with the formation of a Friends of Sinn Fein organization
that would raise money to support Sinn Fein election campaigns in Ireland.

O'Dwyer said that the group would be registered under the Foreign Agents
Registration Act, or FARA, and that accounting of all money collected
would be very strict.

"It's not just that money would be tossed around," O'Dwyer said.

He added that the case would be made to the US government that South
African President Nelson Mandela was permitted to raise money in the US
on his second visit to the country. At the time, Mandela's African
National Congress was still classified by the State Department as an
organization supporting terrorism.

Re. 40

I haven't heard Sinn Fein condemning the past activities of the IRA either.

You can't expect British soldiers to be brought to 'justice' whilst wanting
and amnesty for the IRA.

For the Peace Process to succeed it requires a lot of open-minds on all
sides.  The attitude put forward is precisely that which has caused the
death of so many people.

Being English (who knows a few Irish people) I wish to see the end of all
kinds of racism.  It only creates situations such as NI, Bosnia, Azerbaijan,
etc.  Unfortunately, both Irish and British politicians have exploited it 
for their own purposes in the past.

Hopefully, a new way forward can be found.

    
    re. 41
    
    Have I been overslept, has the British Government had a
    sneak general election?  Or is it just that you have forgotten that Gerry 
    Adams lost the last election to Dr. Joe Hendron of the SDLP and
    therefore Sinn Fein have NO democratically elected politicians at the
    moment.
    
    Re. your ref to .38
    
    The title of .42 says it all
    
    Yes it was a load of tongue in cheek rubbish, but it doesn't hold a
    candle to the left wing rubbish that you have dumped in here over the
    years.
    
    
    Your Chinese Restaurant 'order by number' system certainly saves time.
       
    Gareth
    
    

 Gareth,

 You said,

> and therefore Sinn Fein have NO democratically elected politicians at the
> moment.

 Please enlighten this American, on the British terms then, for the people
 who represent the political party known as Sinn Fein, who were elected
 in the last election, via the one man one vote principle.


> left wing rubbish

 Is this the British term for human rights reports?  Newspaper articles that
 don't agree with British government policy?


                         Mark

    re. 44
    
    Seriously Mark,
                   you have us all confused here. The last general election
    resulted in the replacement of the only Sinn Fein elected MP (Gerry
    Adams) by Dr. Joe Hendron of the SDLP. 
    
    This was a very closely fought seat and resulted in alot of controversy at
    the time.
    
    I would say that this situation will change at the next election given
    the excellent marketing which SF are doing at the moment. ( I wish DEC
    could employ them !)
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

 re. .45

  All confused, huh?
  Take a look at note 1214.11, which details Sinn Fein's election wins
  in the May 93 vote.

  Don't the Sinn Fein representatives in the council seats count as
  democratically elected politicians?

  You're a sly little bugger aren't you Gareth?  Is your game to somehow
  misinform people in here, into believing that Sinn Fein politicians 
  don't hold democratically elected positions?

                                   Mark

    re. 46
    
    Oh! so now we have shifted the goal posts to include council members.
    
    I was talking Members of Parliament. In that case how then does Gerry Adams
    become a democratically elected politician, since he doesn't hold either a
    council seat or a partiamentary seat?  
    
    Gareth

OK Mark re. 46 you asked the question ref. 'one man one vote'

I will put my flippancy away and give it as I REALLY believe it was and is.


Here is my view on how this partitioned country got itself into the mess it 
finds itself in.


Let us roll the clock back to 1968/69 when I was 15 years old and was more 
interested in women than politics (and still am 8*) ) 

Living in Derry I saw this first hand with a Nationalist population of 60%+
and yet we still had a Unionist council by gerrymandering.

The Unionist party held power in Stormont ( the NI Parliament building) by 
a large majority by gerrymandering etc. with a few token Nationalist 
Politicians allowed into the club to pacify the unionists consiencies.

So there they all were sitting pretty believing they had finally put the 
Nationalists in their places when along came the Civil Rights organisation 
to ruffle their feathers. 

Their battle cry was 'ONE MAN ONE VOTE" and a meaningful one it was too 
because,

The elections were based on a system which gave business owners not 
one but a number of votes based on the size of their business or the amount 
of local taxes (rates) that they paid.

This system was corrupt and discriminated against the Nationalist community
since they made up the majority of the business community.

The new system gave everyone over the age of 21 (now 18) a vote and only 
one both in parliamentary and local elections.

The local council elections were then changed to a Proportional 
Representation (PR) system.  Whereby if 50% of the electorate vote Sinn 
Fein then if there are 10 seats in that electoral ward then 5 seats will 
be held by Sinn Fein and as you rightly say Mark, Sinn Fein do have a 
significant proportion of the available seats in local government.

The parliament elections are still held on a 'first past the post' system.
Which I do not believe is a fair system, Labour for instance in Britain 
would have more seats if a PR system could be employed.

Mark, I hope you agree that this is a more objective view of how 
discrimination against the Nationalist community was delt out by unionists.

The only party which would gladly return to the old system is the DUP but 
since Major gave Paisley the short shift treatment recently, he has gone 
on to the back burner over here. 


I honestly believe that what we have now is the best opportunity for peace 
for the last 25 years.

Objectively

Gareth  

  re. .48

  Thankyou Gareth.

  Discrimination by the way, not was, but still is an issue.

                            Mark

    re. .49
    
    OK Mark 'IS' ( but getting better )
    
    I'm off to Nice for a one week conference, I'll stir some S*** over
    there.
    
    Hear you when I return 
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

    
    Talks are under way to-day. First time in decades that the British
    government are officially taking to Sinn fein. Thought there have been
    howls of protest from DUP most people are happpy about these talks
    taking place. Also, next week, The British govt will talk to members
    of the Political wings of the Loyalist paramiliaries. Hopefully we
    will see Sinn fein and and the PUP folk meeting soon...
    
    Re democraticaly elected representatives..yes indeed SF have quite a
    large number of elected council memebers...If I recall they are pretty
    strong in Belfast. You could also argue that it is through THAT body ..ie 
    the local councils that any political inititives will be implemeneted.
    It will also  be a test of how patries can work to-gether in the
    future.                                                         
                  
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
    
    
    
    

    
Mick,

re. .51
>    Re democraticaly elected representatives..yes indeed SF have quite a
>   large number of elected council memebers...If I recall they are pretty
>    strong in Belfast. You could also argue that it is through THAT body ..ie 
>    the local councils that any political inititives will be implemeneted.
>    It will also  be a test of how patries can work to-gether in the
>    future.                                                         
       
This is the crazy thing about our politics here. The DUP councillors sit,
behind the closed doors of the council chamber, with Sinn Fein and debate local
issues, yet they but are not prepared to be seen in public around the same 
table.

If they believe that they have a point of view to air, then they have to be 
at the table to get their point home. 

I think they have now recognised this. Unfortunately their tactic will 
be to win seats in whatever the new forum is and use their proportion of the
of the vote to make the forum unworkable. 

Negative politics at it's worst. 

Let's hope that the majority of the Unionist population can see through 
this ploy and will go with the more liberal parties ( OU & Alliance ).

It is also unfortunate that Sinn Fein has refused to take up Major's U-turn 
on them being invited to the Industrial talks here today, but then that's
politics too! 

rgds

Gareth           
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

from AN PHOBLACHY/REPUBLICAN NEWS
Jan 5, 1995


Catholic beaten to death

THE HORRIFIC and callous murder of 47-year-old Catholic Noel Lyness on the
December 22 was largely overshadowed by the media hype created in the run up to
the North's first ''peaceful'' Christmas in 25 years.

The RUC attempted to play down any sectarian dimension to the savage killing by
initially saying they did not suspect a sectarian motive. It was only later when

it emerged that Lyness was, indeed, a Catholic did the RUC say that, ''a
sectarian motive was not ruled out''.

For the Lyness family from Ballymena it was anything but a peaceful Christmas.
The knowledge that Noel, one of nine children, was brutally bludgeoned to death
by a loyalist gang using a concrete breeze block meant that for this family
Christmas would never be the same again.

The Queens University mature student was last seen walking in the Tate's Avenue
area of the Donegall Road making his way home to his rented Belgravia Avenue
bedsit at 2.30am. There is speculation that he was picked up by a number of
people coming from a Christmas party and taken to an entry between Kilburn and
Ebor Streets and battered to death.

His badly-mutilated body was found three hours later in the entry. The area
where Lyness's body was found is only yards from where Protestant Margaret
Wright was savagely killed last April. Thought by her killers to be a Catholic
Wright was taken to a loyalist bandhall and beaten to death.

Members of the loyalist death squad the Red Hand Commandos were responsible for
the Wright killing. After her killing her body was put in a wheelie bin and
dumped over a wall not far from where the body of Noel Lyness was eventually
found.

    
    This sort of sensationalism does nothing to promote the struggle for 
    peace. No doubt it was a horrific crime but the rest of the article
    is full assumptions or accusations based on assumptions. All this
    does is incite anger and more unrest among the communities involved.
    
    A very similar murder was committed in the Glasgow area around the same 
    time (ie during the holiday period) the facts were reported concisely
    and a request for information to aid the police in their investigations
    was made on TV and in the press. No need for the propaganda or gutter
    journalism.  
               

    
    re. 54
    
    It is unfortunate the way that Mark has decided to report this horrific
    crime because it is only one of at least three brutal murders which
    took place here over the holiday period. But that's Mark's choice and
    he is entitled to his views.
    
    An 83 year woman was robbed in her home and the house was set fire to
    to try and conceal the crime . Also a retired school teacher was
    murdered while walking her dog at a local beauty spot near Bangor.
    
    Two youth's are being questioned re. the first and someone else is
    being questioned re the second. The religion of the two unfortunate
    victims I neither know nor particularily want to know. 
    
    Anyone who believes the RUC or anyone else can hide the religious
    persuasion of any murder victim in this conutry is unbelievably naive.
    Our journalists have had 25 years experience and are not exactly wet
    behind the ears when it comes to religion.   
    
    We have had bomb hoaxes in Dungannon, a Semtex bomb planted in
    Enniskillen as well, but given that we are experiencing a real
    reduction in violence, there is a growing reluctance to point the finger
    to any organsisation for blame, in the hope that the thugs will get the
    message that we want the peace to stay.
    
    This approach may seem like an ostrich mentality but the longer peace
    stays, then the more opposition will result to any threat of a return
    to violence.
    
    Lets see if we can try to add to this new found hope by being less 
    'Knee Jerk'  reactionary in here.
    
    Living in hope
    
    Gareth
    
    My tuppence worth
    
    Gareth

    RE: .54 by MASALA::GMCKEE
    
    Which crap are you referring to? Is it sensationalism to say this man
    was beaten to death because of his religion? Maybe you would point out
    some of the "assumptions or accusations based on assumption" which this
    article was so full off.
    
    I really do not like your attitude towards this incident. Maybe I am
    missing the point you are trying to make but just because the
    information originates from Mark Houlohan does not mean that it is
    wrong or should be disregarded. In fact, I believe that over the last
    year Mark has made some very valid points, although he does have a great
    ability to hide them in a load of rubbish sometimes.
    
    Do me a favour and read .53 again and then tell me what was so unusual
    about the way it was reported that you were prompted to say "why read
    this crap?"

  
    re-1, I may not agree with Mark Holohan's views but I do read some
    	  of the articles he posts with interest. On the other hand he
          also posts articles such as this one which are total trash.

Catholic beaten to death
 |  |  |
 SENSATIONALISM :- Why not say MAN beaten to death rather than bring
                   religion into and hence continue trying to incite
    	 	   hatred.
    
The RUC attempted to play down any sectarian dimension to the savage killing by
initially saying they did not suspect a sectarian motive.It was only later when
it emerged that Lyness was, indeed, a Catholic did the RUC say that, ''a
sectarian motive was not ruled out''.         
    
    If the RUC did not suspect a sectarian motive then why does this paper
    insist on trying to say there was.             

For the Lyness family from Ballymena it was anything but a peaceful Christmas.
The knowledge that Noel, one of nine children, was brutally bludgeoned to death
by a loyalist gang using a concrete breeze block meant that for this family
Christmas would never be the same again.
    
    Where is the proof that this was the work of a loyalist gang ???
   
His badly-mutilated body was found three hours later in the entry. The area
where Lyness's body was found is only yards from where Protestant Margaret
Wright was savagely killed last April. Thought by her killers to be a Catholic
Wright was taken to a loyalist bandhall and beaten to death.

    The article is about Noel Lyness, any connection with the murder of
    Margaret Wright has not been proved and is pure speculation by the writer
    only and is based only on his assumptions.
    
Members of the loyalist death squad the Red Hand Commandos were responsible for
the Wright killing. After her killing her body was put in a wheelie bin and
dumped over a wall not far from where the body of Noel Lyness was eventually
found.
    
    Even more sensationalism based on the assumption that the 2 murders are
    connected.

                                                                            
    If you like this sort of journalism then fair enough but to try and
    pass it off as an accurate account of this brutal and tragic murder
    is ludicrous and is an insult to our intelligence. Some people claim
    freedom of speech is essential but when it comes down to so called
    journalists using circumstances such as this for purposes other than 
    reporting the facts then there should be tighter controls put in place.   
    
    Let's rewrite the story without the junk and see how it reads.
    
Ballymena man beaten to death

THE HORRIFIC and callous murder of 47-year-old Noel Lyness on the
December 22 was largely overshadowed by the media hype created in the run up to
the North's first ''peaceful'' Christmas in 25 years.

The RUC say they do not suspect a sectarian motive. 
    
For the Lyness family from Ballymena it was anything but a peaceful Christmas.
The knowledge that Noel, one of nine children, was brutally bludgeoned to death
meant that for this family Christmas would never be the same again.

The Queens University mature student was last seen walking in the Tate's Avenue
area of the Donegall Road making his way home to his rented Belgravia Avenue
bedsit at 2.30am. There is speculation that he was picked up by a number of
people coming from a Christmas party and taken to an entry between Kilburn and
Ebor Streets and battered to death.

    Now add to that an appeal for any witnesses who may have seen or heard
    anything happening around the suspected time and location and I think 
    you have a fair enough account of the situation without trying to 
    put words into anybody's mouths or trying to incite any further bad
    feeling. It may not sell as many papers but I'm sure the Lyness family 
    would rather have the fact that Noel Lyness was murdered as the main
    story and not overshadowed by the crap that was written in AP/RN.
    
    
    Gordon...

    re <<< Note 1429.57 by PAKORA::GMCKEE >>>
    
>>Catholic beaten to death
> |  |  |
> SENSATIONALISM :- Why not say MAN beaten to death rather than bring
    
    I disagree with you. If the man was beaten to death *because* he was a
    catholic then the headline is a fair one. If it happened in any other
    country in the world the headline would simply read "Man beaten to
    death" but because it happened in NI peoples' first assumption is that
    it was a sectarian killing. Like it or not there are grounds for this 
    assumption.
    
    Tony.

    
    re-1 

    	That is precisely my point, as yet there is NO evidence that the
    murder was sectarianism. If the ceasefire is to continue AND peace is
    to prevail then the the last thing needed is the sort of inflamatory
    journalism shown in the article. If anything the only thing that this 
    article has achieved is to make the murder even more harrowing for the
    bereaved family, hopefully they will not have had to read it.
    
    Gordon...
    
    

  So Gareth and Gordon,
    In the interest of peace you'd rather not have the sectarian nature
  of Noel Lyness's murder reported.  Well, why don't we just ask the
  press to put a moratorium on reporting any "nasty" things that are being done
  to the Nationalist community.  See no, hear no evil?

                       Mark

    Mark,
         I think you have missed the point that I was making, and by the
    way I don't agree with Gordan's reaction to your note.
    
    Your note inferred that the RUC had deliberately tried to hide the fact
    that Noel Lyness's murder was sectarian when in fact, ( and I can fax
    you the local news articles if you wish ,) it was announced within 48
    hours that the RUC suspected a sectarian murder. The fact that it takes
    an extra two weeks to get across the pond is another matter.
    
    Maybe Reuters don't have Mailbus for Windows installed yet or maybe
    it's another marketing ploy.
    
    Gareth
     

re .60,

don't you mean *alleged* sectarian murder?  Or do you know something we
don't?

Chris.

              Hume Attacks British Over Talks Delay
                         by Eammon Lynch
                   Irish Voice. April 19, 1995


     Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) leader john Hume
has denounced the British government for  the delay in starting
direct talks with Sinn Fein and said the Northern Secretary, Sir
Patrick Mayhew, owes an explanation to the people of Northern
Ireland.

     Speaking on the BBC radio show Good Morning Ulster on
Tuesday morning, Hume said :What is required from Patrick Mayhew,
and what the whole community knows, is that it is time to start
talking directly to Sinn Fein. There is no  excuse of any
description for this delay."

     The Derry MP said he found it amazing that there have been
no talks "given the groundswell for peace by the people in our
streets, given the enormous interest in getting peace, and surely
it is self-evident that everyone should do everything in their
power to  make sure there is peace on the streets, particularly
the gentleman called the secretary of state."

     "Given that he and his  government talked secretly with the
IRA when there was no peace, given that he has already talked
with the Progressive Unionist Party and the Ulster Democratic
Party (fringe groups representing loyalist paramilitaries), will
Sir Patrick please explain to the people of Northern Ireland why
he is not talking to  Sinn Fein?" Hume added.

     "I don't think there is anyone in Northern Ireland who knows
why he is not talking to Sinn Fein. Talk to anyone in the street
and they all expect these talks to take place," he continued.

     Hume's comments come at a time when many feel the position
of  the republican leadership is being weakened by the refusal of
British ministers to meet with Sinnn Fein representatives. Since
December a Sinn Fein delegation has been involved in periodic
talks with a group of British civil servants led by Quentin
Thomas at Stormont. No ministers have yet agreed to meet with the
party despite rumors last month that such a meeting was imminent.

      Mayhew has invited all parties to bi-lateral talks in the
near future but has not  yet issued an invitation to  the
republicans.

     Hume said the real challenge at this time was to get all the
parties together but added that "if talks don't involve Sinn
Fein, what's the point? What's he {Mayhew} at? I think hw owes an
explanation to the public and hasn't given one."

     During the radio show, Hume said he was wary of describing
the current delay as a crisis, but added that "the people of our
part of the world have suffered tremendously. They have suffered
far too much over the last 25 years and it is the duty of
everyone to do everything in their power to make sure that there
is no repetition of that."

     Hume's comments came in the wake of a call from Sinn Fein
president for nationalists to engage in street protests over the
delay. He told a crowd at an Easter commemoration in Dublin that
it  was time to let the British hear "the sound of marching feet
and angry voices."

     He said his party had exhausted its diplomatic skills in
attempting to get the British involved in direct talks.

     Sources in the Irish government say they expect a push to be
made this week to end the impasse that has occurred over the
decommissioning of IRA weapons. Last week Adams said there was no
precedent for unilateral disarmament but later denied that he
implied the IRA would not surrender its arms.

     "What I did was to agree with the journalist who put it to
me that there was no historic precedent in Ireland, or abroad,
for  that type of unilateral disarmament. That doesn't mean we
can't keep working for it," he said.

     Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, who has been leading the
party's delegation in talks with British civil servants, said on
Sunday that the IRA would never have called a cease-fire if the
British had mentioned decommissioning in the run-up to the August
31, 1994 ceasefire declaration. McGuinness said that the
republican movement was a united front and his party would not be
involved in attempts to secure an IRA surrender.

     "The British government never mentioned the word
'decommissioning' before August 31, 1994. If they had mentioned
the word 'decommissioning' it is my opinion that there would have
been no cessation on 31rst August, 1994," McGuinness said.


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