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Conference tallis::celt

Title:Celt Notefile
Moderator:TALLIS::DARCY
Created:Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1632
Total number of notes:20523

1421.0. "Republic govt. addressing loyalist fears?" by BONKIN::BOYLE (Tony. Melbourne, Australia) Thu Oct 06 1994 01:28

I read an article (posted in reply 1) written by a woman who describes
herself as "an ordinary Ulster Woman". She goes on a bit but it was 
interesting to read a unionist's viewpoint about NI being re-united with
the South. She contends that it should never happen as they (unionists, 
loyalists, prodestants - whatever) are British and are therefore different
to people in the South who are Irish. This is something I'll take up in a 
later topic but for now I'd like to ask what the Irish government are doing
to allay the fears of the unionists. 

Some of the fears she spoke about are:

1. "We have a much higher standard of living here than they do in the south"

2. "We feel we're being left on our own to fight fanatical bigots who want 
    to take us back to the dark ages and the ruthless oppressiveness of the 
    Roman Church".

3. "I feel the south is a male-dominated and church-dominated country".


Another loyalist I saw on a TV program here last week had similar views and
added that "People in the South have a lack of honesy and a different work
ethic".

These fears may be real or imagined - but they are fears held by the unionist
community and should be addressed.


I've always felt that the government in the South didn't want to know about
the problems of the nationalist people in the north. Now, with the ceasefire,
they've been thrown into the international spotlight and must be seen to do
something. All I've heard so far is requests for money from Albert Reynolds.

Has the govt. there given any indication that they will move to further seperate
church and state?, that they will repeal catholic-like legislation like no
divorce, no abortion etc. (I know there's none in NI either). 

What should they be doing to make the republic a more pluralistic society?

What do the panel think?

Tony.

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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1421.1Magazine articleBONKIN::BOYLETony. Melbourne, AustraliaThu Oct 06 1994 01:29233
Copied from the May/June 1994 issue of
 The Irish American Magazine.

Just an Ordinary Ulster Woman

I'd describe myself as an ordinary Belfast woman.  My husband is a teacher,
 he's at one of the large secondary schools near here in east Belfast, and
 we've lived here more or less all our lives.  My husband is an Ulsterman, my
 mother was English and my father Ulster, he was in the British Army and
 wounded in Italy in the Second World War: and we have three grown-up-
children.

I think I'd also describe myself as someone very much from the Province: I
 mean by that that I was born and brought up in this area, I went to school
 here, and then I went on to the University of Ulster where I studied
English.

So I've never really moved very far away from Belfast.  But I do go
 occasionally to England to see my brother and sister, both of whom are
married and live there: one in Yorkshire and the other in London.
Politically I'd describe myself as a Unionist: but I'm not a member of any
particular party nor is my husband, and we both like to think of ourselves
moderate.

I'm a perfectly ordinary Ulster woman, by which I mean that I'm British and
 proud of it.  It might sound strange to say to someone coming newly here
from England that I enjoy living in Belfast, but it's true, I do, very much.
I think an exaggerated picture of the troubles is given by the media:  for
all of that, nevertheless Belfast's a fine place to live, and its people are
fine people.  They have a tremendous integrity and courage, and great
readiness to put up with difficulties and sometimes danger.  I can't ever
see them allowing themselves to be incorporated in the rest of Ireland,
they're much too independent for that.  I hope I'm not sounding too
prejudiced if I say the Catholic church doesn't really like independence of
thought at all. I regard the idea of full integration between the north and
south with a mild amusement: it really wouldn't ever work, because the
people are so different.

Ulster people are British people and Irish people are Irish, and never the
 twain shall meet as they say.

But that doesn't mean I think that here in the north, there's no hope of
 future rapprochement between the two-thirds of the population who are
 Protestant and the one-third which is Catholic.  I genuinely believe, or
 perhaps it'd be better to say I since rely hope, that one day all this
 dreadful factionalism and sectarianism will gradually disappear, and people
 will all live happily together.  There are a surprising number of mixed
 marriages you know.  I can't quote the exact numbers, but I understand that
 they're increasing all the time between Protestants and Catholics: and I do
 think this is good.  In fact one of my own children, my oldest son, has
 married a Catholic:  She's an extremely nice girl and I think it isn't
 unusual nowadays for this kind of thing to happen.  I was a little surprised
 when my son agreed any children they had should be given a Catholic
upbringing and education, and we have from time to time discussed it.  But
my daughter- in-law Evelyn is not what one might call a bigoted person, and
I'm sure anyway as they get older, the children will probably re-think a lot
of the ideas which the Catholic church does tend to try and instill as
dogma.

I also think great strides have been made in recent years about anti-
Catholic discrimination.  It did occur, everybody admits that:  but rapid
progress has been made in such areas as housing and employment, and there's
now a far more equal and fairer situation.  I don't think it's a great help
to anyone if politicians go on talking about anti-Catholic discrimination
any more now. There are Catholic people with bad housing, but there are also
Protestants in the same situation: and anyway, there are a lot of people on
the mainland with bad housing, and no one can point the finger there and say
it's due to religious discrimination can they?

I think one of the most important things that would contribute to an
 improvement in the situation is an absolutely firm and irrevocable statement
 by the British Government that they intend to keep the Army here.
Protestants do want to be reassured that the extremists and terrorists are
never ever going to achieve their aim of uniting both north and south.
There's really far too much mild speaking by the British Government about
this:  I think it does nothing but give support to Sinn Fein and the IRA.

And I honestly don't know what their idea is, because certainly no one inthe
 south, or no responsible person in the south, is all that anxious to take on
 the economic problems of the north.  We have a much higher standard of
living here than they do in the south, and this is something which the
Republican or Nationalist elements, whatever you want to call them, don't
seem to want to try to understand, or pretend not to.  Belfast Catholics
would very quickly find out which side their bread was buttered on if
Northern Ireland were taken over by the Republic:  their standard of
living'd drop very sharply indeed. You can't help but suspect sometimes that
terrorists have never really given much thought at all to their own
political ideology, if you can call it that.

They want to force a united Ireland not only on the north but on the south
as well.  But the south doesn't want it, that's the fact of the matter.  So
I don't think there's any point on the argument that there'll be no peace
here until all the political parties including Sinn Fein get together round
the table.  I Think that would be deeply insulting to the Protestant people
of Belfast.  They've stood up for years against the most appalling acts of
 destruction of property, not to mention the loss of hundreds and hundreds of
 loves:  so then to be told they had to sit down and try to reach agreement
 with those who'd done such things to them is unthinkable.  At least until
Sinn Fein makes an irrevocable commitment never to resort again to violence
of any kind, that is.  But even if they did that, I think the majority of
people wouldn't trust them, and with good reason.

And you know, to ordinary people like me there's a great danger that Sinn
Fein and the IRA may feel that if they continue their campaign of
intimidation, and indeed step it up which they've been doing particularly
during the last year or so, the British Government might feel it's no longer
worthwhile them staying here and leave.  But that really would be a terrible
letting-down of Northern Ireland people.  The British Government mustn't
give any sign or indication that it's weakening in its resolve to crush the
terrorists.

I don't know what your own particular views are, so you must forgive me if I
 assume incorrectly your attitude towards the situation here is probably the
 same as that of the majority of British people on the mainland.  You seem to
 give the impression at times you don't want to know what's going on here:
you want us out of your hair as it were, and you're impatient with the lack
of progress that's being made.  In my personal opinion that's because you
don't properly understand the situation: and you don't understand because,
to be honest, I think you don't want to understand.

You'll hear a great deal I'm sure, if you haven't heard it already, about
the Battle of the Somme in 1916, when so many men from Ulster lost their
lives. And you may be tempted to think 'Good heavens, that was how long ago,
eighty years?'  So it was: but one of those hundreds of thousands of men who
died was my grandfather:  and the memory of that is part of my family's
history.  It can't just be dismissed as obsession with the past:  my
grandfather died for Britain, my father was wounded in the Second World War
for Britain, so surely this deserves respect and most of all some loyalty?
You must forgive me if I sound angry about this:  but the fact of the matter
is I am angry.  And I'll continue to be for the whole of my life, unless the
British Government assures me... not just with words but with actions...
that the sacrifices those men and many others made really do still count for
something.

How can you betray us?  We feel we're being left on our own to fight
fanatical bigots who want to take us back to the dark ages and the ruthless
 oppressiveness of the Roman Church. Our fathers, our brothers, our sons,
they all sacrificed themselves for you in two world wars: so how can you do
this to us now, and show us no feelings of loyalty or gratitude?

I'd say over and over again to English people: 'Look,  please listen to me.
 You're British, I'm British.  We have the same background of history and
 culture.  I'm Anglo-Saxon, just as you are.  I was born British and I want
to live British.  I feel under threat from those Irish people in the south,
and if the border went I'd be terrified, because I feel the south is a male-
 dominated and church-dominated country.  We fought with you and for you in
the last war.  We gave you submarine bases and air bases:  and without
question, we gave you the lives of thousands of our men just as we did in
the First World War.  But what did they do in southern Ireland? They called
themselves 'neutral' and they didn't lift a finger on your behalf.

There are stories and rumors that I won't go into, but you must have heard
 them yourself often enough, of the extent to which they went to give aid and
 succor to the Germans.

Not to us, their neighbors, but to the Germans.  You were being bombed and
we were being bombed: we were in battle together, and when the war was over
we suffered the deprivations of rationing and everything else.  We never
demanded that we should be given freedom from you, in fact we insisted we
were with you by your side.' That's what I'd like to say.  I'm sorry, I'm
afraid I've let my feelings run away with me, but I think such feelings...
and they're not just mine... are not properly understood or appreciated, and
they're certainly not respected.

Just to give you one small example, I can't tell you how angry it makes me
on the occasions when I go to London and do something like offering a
Northern Irish banknote to a taxi driver and he refuses to accept it, and
says like one did when I was there last year: ' Sorry lady, I don't take
foreign currency.' I can't tell you how that makes me feel: rejected, hurt,
neglected, they're only a few of the words that come to mind.

Look, I'm sorry, do forgive me.  Rationally I can't deny the Nationalists
have their own history, and when they learn about what the British have done
to Ireland, it rouses very strong feelings in them.  It was dreadful, nobody
 could say it wasn't.  But I think it should be remembered that when the
 British were imperialists and colonialists, as they were for hundreds of
 years, their behavior towards all the people they subjugated was terrible.
It wasn't just the Irish...  it was towards the people of India, and
everywhere else you can think of:  Africa, south-east Asia, Scotland, Wales,
China, everywhere the British were terrible.  And the British ruling class
were terrible to their own people too:  they made them live in poverty, they
sent women and children down the mines, they massacred people at
Peterloo...you name it, they did it.  The British ruling class were always
cruel and arrogant, they didn't behave in that way just towards the Irish.
But the people I've mentioned from other parts of the world, they're not
still fighting the British,  they've got over what was done to them, they're
not still carrying on terrorizing the British in their country who've stayed
 there.

And lastly I'd like to admit I'm not really very proud of all my prejudices:
I know they're the result of my emotions and not my intellect.  I mean,
whenever there's an atrocity, I always find myself thinking 'The bloody
Irish!'  And intellectually I know very well the Irish aren't any bloodier
than anyone else.  Some of them are good and some of them are bad, but I
have an uncontrollable emotional reaction which comes from my background and
 upbringing and everything else.  I'm surprised though at how quickly the
 emotional reactions come to the surface.  Perhaps it's because I'm getting
 old.

But it makes me angry when I see slogans painted on the walls in streets
 saying 'Brits out'.  It's the unthinkingness of it that annoys me so much.

Two-thirds of the population of Northern Ireland are British, so what on
 earth does some idiot with a spray can mean by 'Brits out'?  That's the sort
 of trivialisation Nationalists and Republicans indulge in that upsets me.
 It's not a matter for slogans, it's how people live together:  they should
do it and they could do it, in peace and with respect for each other.  I
honestly don't believe the troubles in the north of Ireland are the
responsibility of anyone except the Nationalists and the Republicans.

They simply won't accept the historical inevitability of the situation, the
 situation of the north of Ireland being British and staying British, and its
 people preferring to die rather than be taken over by the Republic.  Surely
 they can see that, surely it can be accepted as fact and a way be found for
us all to live together as civilized people?  Instead of talk of 'Brits
out', it's the Nationalists and Republicans who should go out.  If they
don't like living here under the British Government, if they won't accept it
and don't want it, then they should go peaceably down to the south and leave
the north to us.

Have I sounded like a tub-thumper?  I hope not.  As I said to you at the
 beginning I'm just an ordinary Ulster woman.  An ordinary Ulster woman's
what I want to stay.

                   *****************************

Margaret Anderson is a university lecturer.  She is one of the many people
 interviewed by Tony Parker in his recently released book May the Lord in His
 mercy be kind to Belfast.  He describes her thus: "A tall gray-haired woman
in a green skirt and white blouse, she sat straight-backed on the settee in
her comfortably furnished sitting room.  From time to time she gave a small
grave smile, polite and proud."

1421.2loyalist fears???ESSB::BREEThu Oct 06 1994 09:009
    re: "fanatical bigots" in .0. Would the lady comment on situations in
    the past where playgrounds and other leisure facilities were kept
    closed on Sundays to observe the Sabbath on the whim of certain local
    authorities?
    
    
     One person's fanatic could be another person's clergyman/politician..
    
    P.
1421.3The Loyalist should vote Sinn FeinKOALA::HOLOHANThu Oct 06 1994 10:0012
 Hi Tony,

   The irony of the situation, is that Sinn Fein
 would like to address many of the loyalist fears,
 as part of their own agenda.  Gerry Adams has
 called for a separation of Church and State.  A United
 Ireland would in all likelihood be an economically
 stronger Island.  Sinn Fein is also very progressive
 regarding women's rights.

                       Mark
1421.4EASEW5::KEYESThu Oct 06 1994 14:0653
    
    Sure she has valid points but as was mentioned earlier..The loyalist
    /unionist politicions have to do a bit of tidying up themselves.
    I certainly think she is pushing it abit if she thinks there is a
    monopoly on Bigots on one side. 
    
    Also As Mark mentioned..and you will find most neutral obsrevers will
    agress..when it comes to Social issues and a push of Non-church
    involment..SInn fein are very progressive..Thus it is good that they
    are involved in main-stream (for want of a better word) politics...But
    thats another story.
    
    re Tonys Points :
    
    >We have a much higher standard of living here than they do in the
    >south"
    
    MAybe at the moment but the Southern economy is on a good run..Its
    Growth rate is higher than expected. Still alot to do but moving in
    right direction
    
    Northern economy is false...Its got huge subsidys. What many people who
    give such an argument fail to consider is that without the cash that
    Britain pour in...due to the instability..Northern Ireland would be
    just another black spot like Tyneside In the UK..If Northern Ireland
    was treated the same as many other parts when the UK treasury dispense
    spening...well I doubt if we would hear folk talking about a much
    better standard of living..(Maybe UK noters have a better perspective
    on this..Its your TAX money)
    
    >2. "We feel we're being left on our own to fight fanatical bigots who
    >want to take us back to the dark ages and the ruthless oppressiveness of
    >the Roman Church".
    
    Not on your own..believe you me you would find many in the south
    who would agree with this. I for one certainly do and DETEST the
    power that the catholic church wield down South...In politics,
    Government and ESPECIALLY in eduaction..(yeah..I'm burning in hell for
    it). That said There is a push to change this...The SOuthern president
    is progressive and there are a few polititions who are un afraid to
    stand against them. This will come to a head in near future when the
    Divorce referendum is debated.
    
    >"I feel the south is a male-dominated and church-dominated country".
    
    As above re Church....Male-dominated..I hope not..I don't think we
    are any worse that Northern Ireland. There is room for improvement in
    equality at the work place. Womans groups have a strong and very
    rational lobby.
    
    rgs,
    
    Mick
1421.5DominationXSTACY::BDALTONThu Oct 06 1994 14:2618
I must agree with what Mick says in 1421.4, and I'd like to add
that Ireland has a larger proportion of female politicians than
either NI or the UK in general. Ireland has always had a much
more matriarchal society than England

The Unionist politician David Trimble said recently that he didn't
see why Unionists would want to join the greatest theocracy this
side of Tehran. This was quite a surprise to me. Although I agree
with Mick that the Catholic church in Ireland is powerful, it
doesn't have quite the political clout that the Presbyterian churches
do in the north. The Rev. Ian Paisley, the Rev. William McCrea and
the Rev. Martin Smith, Unionist politicians all, are hardly laymen.
There is no equivalent in the south.
 
    >"I feel the south is a male-dominated and church-dominated country".
    
It seems then that what matters to the woman in question is
whose males and whose church is doing the dominating!
1421.6TALLIS::DARCYAlpha Migration ToolsThu Oct 06 1994 14:3440
    
    >Northern economy is false...Its got huge subsidys. What many people who
    >give such an argument fail to consider is that without the cash that
    >Britain pour in...due to the instability..Northern Ireland would be
    >just another black spot like Tyneside In the UK..If Northern Ireland
    
    Mick's right. Not only is NI running on huge subsidies from the British
    government, many of the growth businesses in NI (security for example)
    are unnatural and don't have that great a future. It would be better if
    the growth industries in NI were consumer goods, value added engineering,
    manufacturing, or cottage industries, etc. instead of government or
    government-related industries...  They're already having a problem now
    with cutbacks in RUC overtime due to the outbreak of "peace".  I suppose
    one can view that ironically as a good problem to deal with.
    
    Church dominance in Irish life has waned. And I think it is more
    symbolic than anything else nowadays. Not to say there aren't devout
    people out there, just that maybe people are more pragmatic. Just
    my observation.
    
    The funny thing is that when you look back and view people from the
    North and South, there are a heck of a lot more similarities culturally
    and politically than differences between them, certainly in comparison
    to America, where my neighbors include
    	-a family from New Brunswick Canada
    	-Armenians from Syria and Lebanon
    	-French Canadians
    	-a young Jewish couple
    	-a Greek-speaking family
    	-an Italian widow
    	-several Irish families
    
    In an pure and innocent manner, Paulina, the little 3-year old girl
    next door has taught me that "ga-doo" means cat in Armenian. I have also
    involuntarily listened to Armenian music at 2 in the morning. :v)  But all
    things aside, and not wanting to sound corny, I value and learn from the
    differences.  And I trust that will be said of the 2 communities in NI
    as they integrate more fully.
    
    /g   
1421.7BONKIN::BOYLETony. Melbourne, AustraliaThu Oct 06 1994 20:5928
    The points you raised (.2 - .6) are all valid but I don't want to argue
    with what the lady wrote, she's quite wrong in a number of instances
    and she's not here to defend her letter. My point was that the prodestant 
    community in NI has a *PERCEPTION* of how things are in the Republic
    and I wanted to know what the Irish government was doing to address
    them. 
    
    Some of the issues I see that need to be addressed are below. They are
    not specifically religious or catholic based but they do reflect laws
    that are based on catholic indoctrination.
    
    - Pubs closed on Good Friday (a law based on the assumption that people
      believe in the story about God).
    
    - Catholic religious education in schools.
    
    - Condoms not available on supermarket shelves.
    
    - Girlie mags not available.
    
    - The Angelus (sp?) ringing out at 6pm on RTE news.
    
    
    These are all little things that may not matter to us on a daily basis
    but they all all up to the republic being seen as a catholic state.
    
    
    Tony.
1421.8SUBURB::ODONNELLJJulie O'DonnellFri Oct 07 1994 18:269
    >     - Girlie mags not available.
    
    I think the good lady might not see this as such a bad thing!
    
    I see your point though, and thank you for entering such an
    interesting note. I have no idea how the Irish or British Governments
    are going to allay the lady's fears, but it is to be hoped that they
    will do something as it is clear to me that peace cannot succeed in an
    atmosphere of fear and suspicion. 
1421.9just a smokescreenPH4VAX::AELAWLORFri Oct 07 1994 22:3844
    re: .7
    
    There's not a lot the Government can do to convince that lady in
    Belfast, because she doesn't want to be convinced. If abortion on
    demand, free condoms, divorce-while-you-wait, and whatever other 
    non-RC changes you care to imagine, were introduced tomorrow, she'd
    soon be going on about the godless heathens in the South.
    
    The whole bit about "male dominated Rome Rule" is purely a
    smoke-screen, and changing it won't make a blind bit of difference to
    "the people of Ulster". It's a red herring to argue for social change 
    in the Republic for the sake of convincing the Unionists. There are 
    all sorts of good reasons for making changes, without trying to con
    people into thinking that it'll make any difference to the Unionists.
    
    Yes, her fears are real. But they're not entirely rational.  And you're 
    asking the wrong question when you ask what are the Government in Dublin 
    doing to soothe those fears. Because you can't soothe irrational fears.
    You can try to convince the person that their fears are irrational, but
    that can only happen in an atmosphere of trust, and unionists don't
    trust Dublin, and don't want to be convinced that their fears are
    irrational.
    
    (I'm not arguing for a do-nothing, head-in-the sand response. I believe
    that there are people in the Unionist community who know that the 
    people of the Republic aren't priest-ridden, bare-footed, eating 
    butter-milk and potatoes. It's in everyones best interests to reach
    out to those people, to build a relationship with them that will allow
    NI and the Republic to grow, economically and socially). 
    
    It's a little bit funny to read a Unionist suggest that Nationalists 
    should learn to live with the inevitability of the British presence in
    Northern Ireland, when I keep hear complaints when Albert Reynolds 
    reflects a fairly widespread view in the Republic (and indeed, in
    Britain), that some form of unity is inevitable, in the (very) long
    run.
    
    The real failure, and indictment, of Unionists, is that in 50 years
    they failed to make good little Brits out of the 40% of their
    population that are Nationalists. Whereas Unionism dies out in the
    Republic, not because it was beaten to death, but because it didn't
    make any sense.
    
    Aengus                                                  
1421.10BONKIN::BOYLETony. Melbourne, AustraliaSat Oct 08 1994 08:1214
    -1>There's not a lot the Government can do to convince that lady in
    >Belfast, because she doesn't want to be convinced.
    
    You're quite right here, sadly, but that doesn't mean the government
    shouldn't try. They may never convince *that* particular lady or many
    thousands of a similar ilk but there is a new and younger generation
    growing up in NI who don't *really* think that their catholic
    neighbours eat their children.
    
    When the government does nothing I liken it to Digital, we know we have
    the best technology and if potential customers out there don't realise
    it THEN IT'S THEIR BLOODY PROBLEM!!!!
    
    Tony.
1421.11What will convince "the people of Ulster"?PH6VAX::AELAWLORMon Oct 10 1994 09:5310
    
    There is nothing that the Irish government can, or SHOULD do to
    convince people who think that Catholics eat their children, because
    "taking the Catholic side" will cause more harm than good.
    
    The thousands who know better won't necessarily be "wooed", and will
    likely be suspicious of any attempts to change the social "milieu" of
    the Republic just for their sake.
    
    Aengus