Conference tallis::celt

1398.0. "Interview with Fred Holroyd" by KOALA::HOLOHAN () Mon Jul 18 1994 14:20

                   Interview with Fred Holroyd
                  from Northern Ireland Report
                          June 9, 1994

                    by Prof. Jennie Traschen
              University of Massachusetts, Amherst


Former Captain in the British Army, Fred Holroyd served in
Northern Ireland as a military intelligence officer for MI6.
Elevated from enlisted soldier to Captain, Holroyd served for 16
years in the British Army. He is author of the book "War Without
Honour", and served as an advisor on the movie "Hidden Agenda."

                            ********

Q: Would you tell us why you are touring the East Coast {U.S.A.}?

A: I've been involved for eighteen years now in a campaign to
bring a certain amount of justice to individuals, and to the
people of Ireland, who have suffered at the hands of  the
security forces. I'm talking about MI5 and MI6 in England. These
are organizations roughly comparable to your FBI and CIA. They're
unaccountable under our system of democracy in England. They're
law unto  themselves, they decide policy and then tell the
government what that policy will be. And for the last twenty,
twenty-five years they are increasingly more and more involved in
abusing what we take--as our liberties in England--our civil
rights and military rights. As a result of that campaign, I got
involved in revealing the actual reality of what has been going
on in Ireland, which has been very effectively covered up by the
British government and the information services. I am here in
America to try and enlist support from ordinary Americans to
pressure their politicians into pressuring my politicians into
bringing forth reforms and to stop the abuse.


Q: What was your military role in Ireland?

A: I was a military intelligence officer. My job originally when
I arrived, as I understood it, was to be the interface between
the army brigade intelligence staff and the brigade area I was
working. My job was really to pass information backward and
forward and ease out any difficulties between the army
intelligence and RUC Special Branch staff in the police
headquarters in Portadown. Shortly after my arrival, my brigadier
tried to insist that I was under his command, which I wasn't, I
was merely there to advise him. I sought advice from my own
colonel, at special military intelligence unit, who said that he
would protect me form the brigadier--from his bullying and his
orders. And he provided a charter for me which stated in fact
that I was an accredited Special Branch officer for the duration
of my tour in Ireland and my loyalty was to the head of Special
Branch. And then later, to confuse the issue even further, to
give me another hat to wear, I was recruited into MI6 as one of
their agents on the ground.

Basically, my job was to pass on any information about republican
and loyalist paramilitaries. Their files, their homes,
information about them, anything that might be useful in
convicting them of various offenses of which they were involved.
In reality, we concentrated 95% of our effort on the Catholics
and 5% on the Protestants. And even that 5% was difficult mainly
because the police took in on themselves. The Special Branch and
the RUC insisted that the army should only deal with the
republicans and that they would deal with the loyalist threat.
They argued on the grounds that we couldn't have a war on two
fronts. Also, it was argued that it was better that the
Protestant terrorists remain in place because--at least we knew
who they were and we should monitor them rather than lift them
all and have a new generation of new terrorists who we didn't
know anything about taking over and who might be more ruthless
and hardened. Now, that was complete nonsense of course. What
they were doing was protecting their own people. Making sure they
weren't convicted because some of them certainly could see a
situation where a civil war would occur in the province and some
of these would be their best fighters. Towards the end of my
time, unbeknownst to me, I found this out later, the security
forces were actually commanding these terrorists, using them to
carry out atrocities and various things, political initiatives,
in the province. Using their leaders to control bands of thugs
and gunmen and then discarding them and shooting them afterwards
when they became an embarrassment because they knew too much.


Q: Who was organizing these bands?


A: Towards the end there was an element within the army which was
controlled by MI5. An SAS element, Special Air Service, who had
been introduced into the province from a dirty war in Oman in the
Middle East before the 60's. And these people were organized into
three troops, killer squads if you  want a better phrase for
them. These were so secret that they were kept secret from the
army itself, the uniformed army. And occasionally when the
uniformed army came across their activities they would be told
that theses were undercover soldiers from NITAT, the Northern
Ireland training and advisor team. These are setups in Germany
and Cyprus, where soldiers coming to Ireland are trained before
their arrival. Soldiers on the ground were told that they are
driving around in civies and beards because they are picking up
techniques and methods to help you stay alive so keep out of
their way. In reality, they are carrying out a campaign of murder
and bombing and arson and general mayhem.


Q: Who were the targets of this campaign?


A: Well, there were a number of targets, predominantly people in
the south of Ireland. Republicans who were on the run in the
south, IRA training camps were shot up and raided. Basically the
IRA believed that it was rival factions but in fact it was
British soldiers pretending to be rival factions. Car bombs were
left in Dublin that killed a number of people, the intention of
that was that the people in the South would turn against the IRA,
who they would blame for this. Kidnapping people who were on the
run in the south, who escaped from prison or were wanted for
murder and things like this. Because nobody could get these
people legally. In collusion with the South, who helped us do
this, we would go across the border and bring them back and try
them and intern them. Sometimes they would be shot.


Q: When we hear reports about IRA violence, one doesn't really
know who is responsible?


A: That is correct. I have no doubt in my mind that the IRA were
violent. I mean, I know that as a fact. But equally I do know
that a lot of the violence attributed to them was in fact carried
out by other people--through third parties.


Q: Were civil rights people harassed?


A: They were certainly harassed and they were certainly smeared
and they were certainly given a hard time. But we are talking
about much more serious things and that is assassinations.
Assassinations were carried out against gunmen basically, people
who were prepared to use weapons in the north or the south. There
is no doubt that the southern government felt that the IRA, even
in the south, were a bigger danger to their stability and their
country as it was in the north. And if the British could be
allowed to come into their country undercover and protected by
their security forces to carry out acts against the IRA, this was
quite acceptable to them. I would say that people on the
periphery, the political agitators, were relatively safe from
physical harm but their reputations certainly would be smeared
and their credibility would be put in grave doubt. There was an
organization they called Information Policy whose role was to
discredit people.


Q: What were your responsibilities? And how did you finally come
to be a whistleblower?


A:  Initially my job was the passage of information between the
Special Branch  and the army. Then I recruited some sources
within the IRA and within the UVF and UFF. And I passed the
information they gave me to various military people so they could
deal with the problems that they posed. I protected those who
were being threatened either by the IRA or UFF. We are talking
about innocent people who did not want to get involved. We are
talking about a time when passions were so high that if you lived
in a Catholic estate it took a very brave man to say you were not
a republican. And if you lived in a Protestant estate it took a
very brave man to say that you weren't a loyalist. Some people in
this position use to be beaten up and threatened. I would protect
them and often in return for that they would give me information
about who was carrying on these activities. I used to go down to
the south in freeze areas and meet various police officers along
the border in the gardai and liaise with them so that the
authorities would be sure that there would be no police or gardai
there so we could cross over British units and operate in the
south with impunity and without fear of discovery. Eventually, I
ended up going down to Phoenix Park headquarters of the gardai in
Dublin and bringing back masses of information from the second in
command of  the police forces down there for MI6. It was there,
by that stage, that was when I realized it was total collusion
between the people who  had the political  power in the south and
the British government. I suspect that has been going on ever
since. The recent hijacking of the Hume/Adams talks would suggest
that these people have been handing it off for some time.


Q: What would happen to people who had information on them passed
on?

A: It would be logged and if necessary it would be used. For
example, if there was going to be a bank robbery to boost IRA or
UFF funds we would make sure that the army was there and the
people were captured. One of two things use to happen. Either
they would be charged or induced to work for  the British and the
sentence was dropped and they would be recruited as touts, as I
believe the word in Ireland. This is the nature of  the
intelligence game. It happens all over the world, these are
pretty standard procedures. If you were genuinely involved in the
activities and you got caught, you were offered a deal or put
away. If you were suspected, they generally left you alone until
they had information. However, there is no doubt there were cases
when soldiers would disobey the standard operating procedures
because they had nothing, they would go to the people who were
suspected, instead of known, and harass them. And that didn't do
the army any good, or the reputation of the standing of what they
were there for. I mean, I do believe for the first three months
we first went into Ireland with the army, we did stand between
two factions. But within three months, somebody had made a
political decision and policy was implemented on the army that we
would try to support the loyalist infrastructure there and reform
it. Now it didn't work because they couldn't be reformed, they
were too corrupt. So the British army was left there trying to
hold up this crumbling, archaic edifice of corruption, while they
were trying to reform it ion the quickest possible time, but it
was all a complete waste of time. So the British were identified
with the oppressors and have been ever since. And I  think that
has got to stop, got to end.


Q: Why did you leave Ireland?

A: I was aware of a number of minor infractions of the law and
criminality by this group of right wing people working within the
army structure undercover. It came to a head when I was told by
an army officer who told me that he had murdered a republican
{John Francis Greene--eds.} who was on the run, who was wanted by
the police. He suggested that I go with him and murder another
one. I have to say at the very moment that was said I was not
too concerned. I wasn't greatly ethical about it st all because
we were very busy and like all  busy people you don't have time
to think. Shortly afterwards when I did have time to think about
just what this man had said and the implications of what he had
done, it struck me that we were on very  dangerous ground.
Because if we were murdering people in order to  catch murderers
then we  were no different. If we were going to have a counter-
terror campaign against the terrorists then that would make us
exactly the seam as them. And the people of the province who
would have nobody to go to for help and safety from force and the
threat of force, we would be depriving them from the only escape
they had from this. And the whole thing just became totally
ridiculous. At the end of the day we would become a mirror image
of the people we are fighting so they would have morally won the
campaign.

     An I also thought of the reputation of  the army. If any of
this ever came out, the credibility of all hose good and
honorable soldiers would go down the tubes. So I wrote a report
to my commanding officer complaining about this, among other
things and what I didn't understand was that he was part of the
set-up. Shortly afterwards I was lifted out of  there on the
precarious grounds that I was mentally ill and held in a hospital
for a month. All sorts of false reports were written about me
that were later denied. I spent a year and a half in the army
trying to get the army board to address the issue and have an
inquiry. They didn't, they wouldn't and that was unlawful because
I was entitled to an inquiry as an officer. Then I began to
understand that the army was frightened of the security
{intelligence} services.  They had no power again the security to
such an extent that they would quite blatantly disregard all
their own cherished ideals and regulations. So I became a non-
person, I was deprived of my civil and military rights. I wasn't
allowed to go  to a lawyer to the press. I was held very firmly
under military law. That's how I resigned. Life became untenable.
I became totally undisciplined because I lost all respect for the
system and it was unfortunately for the people in the system
because they knew I was trying to tell the truth and they would
have loved to help me but they were too frightened to do so
because it was now political and not military. It was
embarrassing for all of us.

     So I left and then I sought help because I was harassed
exactly the same way as those people in Ireland are when they
upset the authorities. I was advised to go off to Rhodesia, which
I  did... I spent some years in Rhodesia and recovered and got my
self-confidence again and then came home thinking that it was all
over, only to find that I was being harassed again. And my life
again became so untenable that I went to the police in Essex to
ask for advice and give them allegations about what happened in
Ireland. Because this was the only thing I could think of that
was leading to this behavior by the authorities. They advised me
to  go  public. They said my loyalty had been stretched way too
thin, that they people who were attacking me were MI5 right
wingers, that they were totally corrupt, that they had corrupted
much of the British system and guys like me had to talk about it.
So I was sent to a left wing journalist and that was really the
turning point. He spent two years investigating my case, stood it
up in a series of articles,, and as a result of those articles,
we then started to find out what had really been going on in
Ireland. It was much more intense and much more massive than I
had dreamed of. Now at that stage I had a twin tract policy.
First, it was to clear my own name and get my own case cleared
up. But as more and more evidence became available of what these
people had been doing, who were my enemies within the system if
you like, I realized that I would have to reveal that information
too. Now that was a real crisis of conscience, because I'm
British and I've been in the British army and I knew a lot of
what I had to say would be considered to be disloyal. I would be
considered a traitor, equally I knew that I couldn't keep quite
about those things because I knew that they would just go  on and
on until someone revealed them.


Q: Given that some people in Ireland use terror, and that some
people support the British government's counter-terror campaign,
what do you  think the British government should be doing?

A: Any professional soldier worth his salt knows that terror
doesn't work. You just got to look at military history, it does
not work. It is a temporary solution. You terrorize people for
short period of time, but the minute you start terrorizing people
you build up a hating and loathing and a spirit that will re-
emerge, re-surface, which will cause you hassles and that is
what has been happening in Ireland over the generations--and in
other countries in the world. Real  soldiers know that does not
work. What you have got to do if you are a soldier is actually
obey the law. You are there to uphold the law, if you are there
in support of the civil power or if there is a military
government. It is very, very essential that you keep your
credibility and give the civilians somebody to  go to that they
know they can trust.

     And I think if we could actually go back to that stage where
soldiers, policemen, officials in government could be trusted to
do  the honorable thing then we would have a viable prospect.Now
that has disappeared. Not only in Ireland, but it has disappeared
in England. People don't trust the police in England anymore,
people don't trust the politicians. And it has been caused by
people who are at the extreme right of politics who have just
abused the system. And I think is all coming home to roost.

     As far as ireland specifically, Ireland is the last of the
colonies. I think MI6 certainly took this view in the early days
because they arranged the peace talks with the IRA which were
sabotaged by MI5 and the extreme right. And indeed are still
being sabotaged at this very moment. It is very interesting that
at least one of those MI6 officers who arranged the original
peace talks is involved in the latest initiative with Gerry Adams
and the IRA.

     So MI6, who have great experience in handing colonies over,
who are quite happy to see the last of our colonies go if you
like, is again being subverted by extreme right wingers who still
believe that they can win a military war in Ireland and won't
have to give the province up. Then of course there is the
political side of the fact. The Protestant vote, the Orange Card
as it is called, those 9 votes, used to be 13, are essential if
the Tory government wants to put through its policies and stay in
power. They have always been very important in British politics.
The split between the two parties has always been so narrow that
the Tories have always had to call the unionists and do what the
unionists wanted. Now they have always given in. These are
loyalists, yet whenever the British want them to do something
that they don't want to do they go on strike, they bring the
province around and they threaten to burn everything to the
ground. Now I think its time that the Brits called the bluff and
say, "OK, this is the last time you are making a threat. Either
do it or shut up, but if you do it we will come and sort you
out."

     So my view, without being a republican, that this is the
last of the colonies and should have been handed over a long time
ago, and there should be a united Ireland. What worries me is
that the British government and the Irish government have been in
collusion for so long I'm not so sure that if there was a united
Ireland that the corruption would change.

     All I ask of people is not to believe what I'm saying but to
listen to what I am saying, by all means, but don't necessarily
believe it. There are ways where you can find out if I'm telling
the truth or not. There are all sorts of people who will give you
information. I mean Colin Wallace and I, right at the beginning,
said to journalists, "Look, do your job." We said to civilians,
"Write your MPs, write to relatives, get information yourselves."
And if you find that we are telling the truth, no matter how
fantastic it may seem, then please help us put a stop to all this
nonsense, help stop the killing, stop the violence, stop the
stupidity." That is all we ask and slowly it is coming right.

                          *************

from
                     Northern Ireland Report
                           PO Box 9086
                   Lowell, Massachusetts, USA
                           01853-9086

                       tel: (413) 467-7860

subs: $20 a year (monthly)

"NIR is an independent publication and is not affiliated with any
political party, group or organization in Northern Ireland or the
United States."

                            *********

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    It does make for great reading , a plot that Robert Ludlum or Tom
    Clancy would be proud of . But I've heard it all before and I still
    can't distinguish whether this is sour grapes on the part of a
    discredited officer or whether this is indeed based , however loosely,
    on fact. 
    
    I am always intrigued when I read these types of `whistleblowing'
    reports about how , when everyone else is a liar, cheat and murderer,
    the author is always `holier than thou'
    
    The piece of the article that I find amusing is the part where he
    claims the Essex police told him to go public . I don't think so.
    
    Feargal.
                                                             

 re. .1

  To totally base one's faith in something one reads is probably
  akin to stepping out on a long limb.  If on the other hand,
  reports of British collusion with loyalist death
  squads, is also being claimed by independent human rights 
  organizations, then I believe that what Mr. Holroyd has
  to say, might be true.  Do I totally trust Mr. Holroyd, no way.
  After all he's an ex-British officer by his own admission.


                           Mark

  

>  After all he's an ex-British officer by his own admission.

so is it fair to say that you shouldn't be trusted as you're an
ex-British subject by your own admission?  I'm surprised that you
give the article any credit at all, given that it is far more
tenuous than others you have rubbished.  Oh, I forgot, it must be
true if it shows Britain in a bad light.

Chris.

  Come on, even you must see a big difference between being a British
  citizen (or ex British citizen), and being a British Military officer.

                    Mark