Conference tallis::celt

    Call the Irish consulate (in Boston 617-267-9330).  As far as I
    remember your wife is termed an Irish citizen of Foreign Birth.
    I believe she cannot pass her citizenship on to her children, and
    probably not to you either. But check it out.  It's worth a phone call.
    
    Now, if you want to invest about a million in some business in
    Ireland, you can get just about any citizenship your heart desires.
    Ask the sultans of the Middle East... 
    
    Are you interested in buying land in Ireland?
      
      /
    Slan,
    George
                                                                     

Thanks, George. I will contact the appropriate Irish authorities (the
embassy in Paris, in my case). I thought to check here, first, as
there's quite a bit of real experience.

In any case, yes, my wife's citizenship is termed Foreign Birth. She
can pass this on to our children (which we've already initiated).
Whether I can acquire Irish citizenship is still unknown. If I find
out, I'll post the info here.

Re buying land in Ireland, the thought had occurred to us more than
once in the past. As well as starting a business there. It's certainly
a beautiful place, but it can get so darn sunny sometimes ...

>can pass this on to our children (which we've already initiated).

    Check it out because they changed the laws regarding this
    several years (7?) ago. Before the law changed you could
    pass on the citizenship to your children, afterwards you
    can't (at least in law).  If she acquired the citizenship
    prior to the law changing, she'll be grandfathered in, no
    problem...
    
    /g

    
    Unfortunately, as per my previous notes, my experience with the people
    in Boston has been bad.  They are not helpful and only answer very
    specific questions.
    
    However, after many hours on the phone with them, it appears that I can
    pass Irish citizenship to my wife after 3 years of marriage ('course I
    was born, bre(a)d and buttered there.
    
    Now I wasn't aware of the law-change that prevents Foreign born people
    passing on citizenship. I know there was a lot of pressure becuase of
    the view that "Irish passports were easy to get" (obviously the people
    that came up with that didn't deal with Boston).
    
    Unless someone here in this Notesfile has direct experience it may be
    worth talking directly with someone in Dublin, generally the people in
    the "home" office are a bit more helpful.
    

We, too, have had somewhat unsatisfying business with the Consulate in
Boston. I can tell you that the Embassy in Paris and the Consulate in
Antibes have been much more pleasant places to deal with. It might
almost pay to telephone them directly from the US just to get questions
answered politely and competently. Jeez, and you'd think Boston, with
such a large Irish population, would merit nicer treatment.

Anyway, I wasn't aware of a law change, and we were told as recently as
1991 at the Embassy in Paris that Citizens by Foreign Birth could still
pass on citizenship to their children.

    I had no trouble with the Irish Consulate in Boston.  Of course, I had
    stopped at the Foreign Office in Dublin the previous year to get all
    the instructions and forms, so I was not walking in off the street with
    yet another string of questions that they must get tired of hearing.
    
    Someone should suggest to them the creation of a FAQ that could be
    handed out in response to such inquiries.  Of course, then there
    wouldn't be as much work for them to do, would there?
    

    Mike,
    
    I don't mean to be nosy (well just a bit) and I won't think ill of you
    if you choose not to answer and please don't take offense from me
    asking, but I think that this question will arise again and again in
    the context of Ireland as a member of the European Union (EU). 
    
    Are you seeking Irish Citizenship more for the EU rights that go with
    it rather than for the glory of being Irish. As Ireland is in the EU
    then an Irish passport immediately gives you the right to work/live
    without any other visa anywhere in the 12 member states and have the
    more or less the rights of a full citizen.
    
    Joe.

>I won't think ill of you if you choose not to answer

Ah, but will you think ill of me if I *do* answer? :-)

Well, you were bold enough to ask directly, so I will answer
truthfully: my own interest in Irish nationality is for the EU rights.
I already have some rights in this regard, due to my wife's acquired
Irish nationality, and we have 10-year cartes-de-sejour, but as we are
in Europe for good, it would simplify things a lot.

In the case of the children, it's purely for "the glory of being
Irish", as the older child was born in France, and the younger will
have lived in France long enough to acquire European nationality by the
time she's 18, should she desire.

At any rate, a call to the Irish Embassy in Paris produced the
following info: the children can acquire Irish nationality, as they
were born after my wife acquired hers. Had they been born before, it
would not be possible. My situation is not as clear, as we were married
before she did so. They're checking into it. I'll let you know what I learn.

    re .8 
    
    That's fair enough, I certainly don't think any Irish person could ever
    question your motive considering our own history in wheelin' and
    dealin' for visa's to the US. I just find it interesting how all these
    things come about. I remember voting for the Single European Act. I
    voted yes to Europe then (Say thanks Mike :-). I don't think I'd vote
    yes in another referendum. I think they are going too far too fast,
    particularly on Monetary Union and Political integration. I think they
    should let some of the benefits of the SEA become apparent and/or work
    to resolve its problems before going hurtling headlong down the path to
    a United States of Europe. 
    
    Anyway hope all goes well with your efforts to become one of us.
    
    Joe.

    >particularly on Monetary Union and Political integration. I think they
    
    I'm just curious Joe.  I think I understand the Monetary Union
    problems (with respect to Britain/Ireland), but what Political
    integration is troubling? 
    
    /George

    George,
    
    the Political integration I find most worrying is the heavy-handed
    social policies of the Jacques Delors faction of the EU commision, 35
    hour working weeks, highly inflexible work practices. These are exactly
    the policies that have the EU average unemployment at 12% (twice the US
    average). Also there is what is known as the Democratic Deficit. Much
    of the current decision making is made by bureaucrats accountable to
    noone. The most powerful body is the EU Commission which is made up of
    unelected political appointees, one from each member state. These guys
    have enormous powers and control over very large budgets, yet the
    average European would probably not be able to name one of them.
    
    Joe.   

    Joe is quite correct.
    
    Laurie$living_in_Brussels.

A bit more on the digression ... I have to agree with folks who believe
that the EU is moving a bit too fast. The benefits of open trade are
clear, but it's not as obvious that the political integration need be
so rapid. I fear that cultures will be disrupted for little gain. In
fact, my greatest fear is that cultural identities will dissolve in a
common language (Mr Toubon notwithstanding). But yes, thanks, Joe for
voting for Maastricht :-).

That aside (and I do hope we don't need to spend a lot of words in
*this* topic on European Union), Joe's point is well taken:

>I just find it interesting how all these
>things come about.

It's indeed highly ironic that, for so many years, people from many
countries have desired residency in the US. And now, some Americans
wish to do the same elsewhere. It's not so hard to understand, when you
look at the US and where it's headed.

I received a package from the Irish Embassy in Paris which contained a
page saying that spouses of Irish citizens may acquire citizenship. The
restrictions are that:

1. The Irish spouse must be Irish by birth or by descent (not by
naturalization).

2. The application may not be made earlier than 3 years after either
the date of marriage or the date the Irish spouse acquired citizenship,
whichever is later.

The kind lady at the Embassy did imply that these rules could change,
presumably related to EU pressures.

    RE: .14  by PERLE::glantz 
    
>I received a package from the Irish Embassy in Paris which contained a
>page saying that spouses of Irish citizens may acquire citizenship. The
>restrictions are that:

>1. The Irish spouse must be Irish by birth or by descent (not by
>naturalization).

    Could you look in the packet and see if the same rule applies to
    children of Irish who have acquired their citizenship through a
    grandparent?  Would that be possible three years after becoming a
    citizen?
    

Dennis,

I'm not sure I understand your question.

While it didn't say explicitly, it was fairly clear from the wording
that people who acquire Irish citizenship because a parent,
grandparent, or great-grandparent was born in Ireland are Irish by
descent, not by naturalization (which would be my status). As such,
their spouses can acquire Irish citizenship. If you, for example, have
become Irish because your grandparents were, and you pass this on to
your children, then, as near as I understand it, your children are
still Irish by descent, and their spouses can become Irish.

The material did reference the applicable laws on the subject, which I
presume you could obtain from a Consulate. I'll try to remember to post them.

To give a different example, let's say that my wife (Irish by descent)
passed away and I remarried. My new spouse would not be able to become
Irish, because my own citizenship would have been acquired by
naturalization, not descent.

Does that answer your question?

    >While it didn't say explicitly, it was fairly clear from the wording
    >that people who acquire Irish citizenship because a parent,
    >grandparent, or great-grandparent was born in Ireland are Irish by
    >descent, not by naturalization (which would be my status). As such,
    
    My understanding is that persons who have a parent born in Ireland are
    automatically Irish citizens.  Persons who have a grandparent born in
    Ireland can apply to be registered as foreign-born Irish citizens.  The
    latter case is the route that I took.  
    
    My question is, can I, after being a citizen for three years, apply for
    citizenship for my son?  In his case he is ineligible because he does
    not have a parent or grandparent born in Ireland.  But if a spouse can
    claim Irish citizenship three years after someone becomes registered as
    a foreign-born Irish citizen, perhaps the same can apply to my son. 
    This was my question.  It would be very useful as I plan to take my
    son with me the next time I go back to Ireland for a visit.

My wife's citizenship is like yours (her grandparents were born in
Ireland), and we've started the paperwork to register our children's
foreign births. In fact, we had started it for the first girl when we
lived in France over six years ago, but it wasn't completed by the time
we moved back to the States, and the Consulate in Boston pretty much
refused to even talk to us about it, so we put it on hold. It's true
that the children don't fall into the same category as your or my wife,
but they are certainly eligible to become Irish.

I'll check the paperwork and post the details in one of the appropriate
topics (I sort of figured to keep this one for the marriage question).

    When I asked the Irish Embassy in Brussels, they said that I acquired
    my Irish citizenship through my 100% Irish mother. They said that my
    children must be registered as Foreign Births before citizenship would
    be granted, which, once granted would be through their grandmother (my
    mother of course). My spouse could not become an Irish citizen because
    I was not born in Ireland. If I understand the last few notes, this
    last statement isn't true.
    
    Laurie.

    The only way to settle this debate is for someone to get a hold
    of the law which governs Irish citizenship.  Can someone post it
    here?  I've too have heard conflicting stories - the most
    notable being that children (of those who acquired citizenship
    through their Irish grandparents) cannot become citizens...
    
    The other area I'd be interested in hearing about is the tax
    consequences of these "new" Irish citizens?  I know that if you
    are "American", the Internal Revenue Service will go after you
    for taxes, regardless of where you live.
    
    /George

    
    I thought I added this before but in case I didn't I'll had a case 
    example to this chain.
    
    I was born in the US, so I am a US citizen.  While living and working 
    in Galway, Ireland, I found out about obtaining Irish citizenship
    through their "grandfather/mother" clause.  If I could show proof of
    my grandmother being born in Ireland and my connections to her then
    I could apply for Irish citizenship.
    
    So I collected all certified copies of birth and marriage certs
    connecting me to my Irish grandmother and submitted it through the 
    proper channels in Dublin (I think on Molesworth St.)
    With my Irish citizenship came a small green slip of paper stating 
    citizenship with no picture.  I then took this and applied for an 
    Irish/EC passport.  I believe at this point they wanted me to mail
    in my US passport, which I was very reluctant to do for obvious
    reasons.  So I hand carried my US passport, Irish citizenship,
    applications, pictures and cheque to their office in Dublin and basicly 
    walked my application through their process.  It took the full day.
    
    At the end of the day I had dual citizenship and 2 passports.
    Note, with my green slip citizenship document I could vote in all
    Irish elections.  With the Irish/EC passport I could travel and work 
    anywhere in the EC as a local citizen.  Not to mention traveling around
    volatile Arabs countries more at ease as a "neutral" passport holder.
    
    One of my daughters was born in Ireland and other born in the US.
    Both currently have US passports but I'm sure I could get them both
    Irish passports with the proper paperwork.   
    My wife is full Irish and is currently a US resident alien.
    
    All this took place between 1985-88, so some of the laws and
    proceedures might have changed.
    
    I didn't mean to go on, but I hope this helps a little bit.
    
    
    Cheers,
    Paul  
    
                                                                  

    re .20
    
    The USA is pretty much unique in going after you for tax wherever you
    live in the world. Most other tax regimes will not pester you once
    you're out of their country for a while. Britain and Ireland are
    similar in this regard.
    
    John