Conference tallis::celt

I was born to a Protestant family and lived in a mixed area in South Belfast.
Our next door neighbours, with whom we got on very well, were Catholic. I went
to university in England and settled there after completing my degree course.
I made regular visits back to Northern Ireland until my parents died a few
years ago. I met my other half at Gate 49 at Heathrow airport during one of
these visits. She was also brought up in Northern Ireland, although she
has an English father and Scottish mother. They took early retirement from
Queens University and moved out some years ago, first to Ohio, then Oman and
finally Scotland.   

I still have a brother and friends in Northern Ireland. I would like to get
over to visit them more often, but alas time has not permitted of late.

I do a lot of sailing from Southampton where I now live. My ambition is to
sail round to Belfast in my own yacht, sampling the Guinness at each port
on the way of course. 

I started entering notes in this conference to try to give a perspective from
someone who has actually lived in Belfast. I mostly feel I am wasting my time.


    Best regards
    
    Dave 

  You ask others to post apolitically, yet you start off with
  accusations of "armchair experts", and "disinformation".
  Even so, I will post an apolitical note.

  I was born in London in 1961.  My father is an Irish Catholic,
  my mother is a Protestant. My father served 3 years in the
  British Army.  

  I've visited Ireland, and lived in England. Most of the 
  information I have on north east Ireland is provided by
  Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch, and various human
  rights activists from north east Ireland who have come to
  speak here in the U.S.

  I make no claims to be an expert by any means.  Much of my
  information is from the indepenent human rights organizations,
  and Nationalist literature (which is almost impossible to
  find in the United States), and British press.

  I believe that Britain made it's activities in north east
  Ireland, the worlds concern when they became signatories to
  the U.N. agreements on human rights.  Much as human rights
  abuses in South Africa, China etc are the worlds concern.

                    Mark

re .0

  Gareth,

       having corresponded at length on this subject in SOAPBOX note #1140
I came to the conclusion that a rigid set of pre-conceptions was seen as far 
more illuminating of the situation in Ulster than either having visited the 
place or even lived there.

                             Dennis.

  P.S. How's life? give me a ring some time.

    I'd never been to the North before last Fall when I spent a week and a
    half in Belfast and in Cushendall in the North Antrim coast.  During
    that time I walked around a great deal and I met some of the people who
    are faced with living under all this politics and bitterness.
    
    You could dismiss this as not "counting", but I feel it gave me a
    little more understanding of what's going on there, and a wish to
    learn more.  Because there are people there now that I know, it has
    personalized it for me and I pay more attention to what I hear on the
    news.  I hope to take my son there for a visit next time I go.
    

    I was born in Melton, Suffolk, of an Irish Catholic mother from Dublin
    (born Naas), and an Anglican (Protestant) father, neither of whom ever
    displayed the slightest religious inclination. Both are now dead. I
    spent the first 7 years of my life in the east end of London in an
    Irish community, and flitted betweeen Dublin and Suffolk until I was
    about 16, attending boarding school in England. Although it's some 20
    years since I was "home" (as my mother's family always called it), the
    rest of the family are now returned permanently except my auntie who
    lives near us in Suffolk. As a consequence, I have regular contact with
    them all. I now live in Brussels.
    
    Laurie.

    re.2 and reference to "armchair experts" etc...... which was not
    addressed to anyone in particular but to the subject of Northern
    Ireland in general however there is an old Irish saying... 
    
    "If the cap fits,..wear it!............." 
    
    Dennis C. good to hear from you again, your trips over here with both
    Digital and for pleasure certainly give you the right to an opinion. 
    
    How's the m/bike racing going and hows yours mechanic (Fred)!!?
    
    The gliding club at Ballarena has moved to a new field by the way ,I was up 
    there recently with my son who was having a trial flight.
    
    rgds
    
    Gareth
    
    
    
       

    On the subject of "armchair experts", I have no doubts what so ever
    that living in NI gives a person a much greater understanding of the
    situation than someone who has never been there. I for one value
    the input of people who live there since they can help us to get a
    fuller picture. I would, however, not deride people as "armchair
    experts" just because they haven't been there. Many people are experts
    on outer space without ever having been there. If someone tells me the
    sun is 93,000,000 miles away I believe them - I don't say "You can't
    know that. You haven't been there".
    
    My only experience of being in NI is having driven through it twice and
    I was shocked. I drove through an apparently deserted security
    checkpoint at Newry and the fortifications there have to be seen to be
    believed. I was strolling along the promenade at Carrickfergus when an
    armoured truck drove down the street with two soldiers pointing guns
    at my friend and me. My friend left his cigarettes in a pub in
    Carrickfergus and a man ran outside afterwards to call us back for
    them. The cigarettes were lying on the table untouched. I wondered why
    the guy who had ran after us didn't bring the cigs with him - then I
    thought about it. Two strangers leaving a package in a pub... Maybe I
    wouldn't have touched them either.
    
    It must be a terrible way of life and I don't envy those people who
    have to live their lives that way. Some Irish/British children have
    grown up seeing armed soldiers in their streets and gardens and accept
    this as a normal way of life. I hope that some peace can be found soon.
       

    I was born in Mayo and lived there until I was 17, when I went to
    College in Limerick, returning home most weekends. I then moved to Cork
    for four years and back up to Galway until coming to NH following the
    closure of GAO. Since the early eighties I have visited Belfast many
    times and have a number of friends there.
    
    Joe.

    Eddie,
          thanks for  your input on your experiences in N.I. and I know
    that what we take here as the norm. (ie. your experience in
    Carrickfergus) can appear bazaar to a visitor, but that's life here and
    that's hard fact. 
    
    I hapen to live in Carrickfergus and what you do not go on to say is 
    whether you had a good pint in Carrickfergus, whether you saw a magnificent 
    Norman Castle and that the people in the bar appeared to enjoying 
    themselves, etc. etc
    
    
    This is where isolated incidents appear to take over in preference to
    the overall picture and distorts the real picture which turns
    information into disinformation.
    
    Breakfast television this morning showed armed guards patrolling the
    corridors of a school in Washington state should I accept this as the
    norm. for all schools in the USA...? I like to think not.
    
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

	
	I was born in Belfast at the Mater Hospital on the Crumlin Road and 
	was brought up between my two grandmothers' homes in the Markets 
	(Cromac St) and the Springfield Rd, near Mackies.  These are two of 
	Belfast's so-called  Catholic "ghettos".  Needless to say, both my 
	parents are strict Catholics.

	We moved just outside Belfast when I was about four to a mixed 
	housing estate which had a majority of Protestants.  I still 
	remember standing in the front garden watching the Orangemen and the 
	bands marching past on the Twelfth.  It was a big day out back then
	and most of the Catholics families turned out to see the bands, as 
	they still do, even in Belfast.

	I attended the local Catholic primary school, passed my Eleven-Plus, 
	and went on to St Mary's Christian Brother's Grammar School just off 
	Divis St in Belfast.  The Christian Brothers certainly know how to 
	make a good Catholic of you, they beat it into you with leather 
	straps, and take great delight in doing so.  The lay teachers were 
	just as bad, although they tended not to have their straps inlaid 
	with lead strips as the Brothers prefered.  I can still hear our 
	Latin/Irish teacher, Mr Snipe, and his famous saying as he beat the
	living daylights out of us, "The onus is on you, boy, to learn."
	Whack. Whack. Whack.  A jar or three in the Spanish Rooms across 
	the road usually managed to block any pain, when we were old enough
	to be served (15 or 16).

	All of this was happening during the mid to late 60's and my last 
	year in school was often disrupted by civil rights marches and 
	demonstrations being broken up by the RUC and B-Specials.  We often 
	had to pick our way round the broken bottles and bricks to get to 
	the bus station and home.  Classes were abandoned as tear gas 
	occassionally flooded some of the classrooms at the front of the 
	school; physics and chemistry were particularly susceptible - or at 
	least that's what I've always claimed when questioned about my poor
	'O' Level results.

	So I grew up in the thick of it and I presume this must have had 
	some bearing on my views towards the police, the army and the 
	British in general.

	Sorry to disappoint you Mr Holohan, but I didn't turn into some 
	nationialist, republican, gun-wielding thug.  I respect the police 
	and the army, both the regulars and the part-timers, and the very 
	difficult job they have to do here trying to protect the 98% of the 
	population of Northern Ireland who want to live in peace.  As for 
	the other 2%, I and the majority of the population (according to 
	several opinion polls), would prefer to see much stricter policies 
	enforced including capital punishment and shoot-to-kill, or 
	preferably shoot-on-sight, to remove the terrorists from our streets.  
	I include all terrorists here - the UDA, UVF, Red Hand Commandos 
	and other Loyalist groups as well as any Islamic fundamentalists, 
	Jewish extremists, or any other so-called freedom fighters who are 
	terrorising innocent populations to achieve their own ends.  And 
	just as a by-the-way, the RUC have put away more Loyalist terrorists 
	than Republican ones during the past couple of years - so much for 
	the collusion theory.  (Something tells me he already has a glib 
	answer to that!)

	I have always been treated with civility and respect when stopped 
	at police and army checkpoints, despite my driving license showing 
	that I have a Catholic name.  I have travelled all over the North 
	and Donegal during the past twenty years first as a Burroughs and 
	then as a Digital Field Service Engineer so I am stopped 
	frequently in road checks, especially when crossing back and forward 
	over the border but no member of the Security Forces has ever 
	hassled me, dragged me out of the car and beaten me up, shot me, 
	verbally or physically abused me or otherwise interferred with my 
	basic civil and human rights.  Which is probably why I find all of 
	the far-fetched republican stories and news reports in this 
	conference very hard to believe.

	On the other hand, Mr Holohan's mates in the IRA have: 

	- murdered my best friend in the La Mon House Hotel bomb (it took 
	  six days to identify what was left of him), 
	- put three of my other friends out of work by bombing the premises 
	  where they worked, 
	- raided my wife's workplace seven times (the last of which when she 
	  was pregnant), 
	- almost blown up both my wife and myself last year as we were at 
	  a local restaurant for our anniversary, (luckily we didn't stay for 
	  dessert)
	- almost killed the entire Digital population in Belfast as we 
	  evacuated the local office during a car bomb attack, we all ran 
	  past the car with the bomb in it and were only clear of the 
	  building by less than five minutes when it exploded.
	- stolen two of my wife's cars, one of which was blown up.
	- disrupted and brought to a standstill the traffic in Belfast at 
	  least once a week for the past few years by issuing multiple (15+)
	  bogus bomb warnings, thereby ensuring that I am at least two hours 
	  late getting home and miss any planned evening entertainment.

	You don't need two guesses to see who has been abusing my civil and 
	human rights.  

	So, like Gareth, I firmly believe that this conference is full of 
	armchair propagandists and disinformationists like Mr Holohan who 
	do their best to preach the gospel of the Bomb and the Bullet, and 
	have no conception at all of what everyday life is like over here.

	Mr D'Arcy does little in his role of Moderator to stop the spread of 
	this hatred.  This conference is supposed to be about Celtic issues 
	- not about spreading biased information on the current situation in 
	Northern Ireland - that does nothing for those of us in Digital who 
	choose to live and work here.  One wonders how long this conference 
	would be tolerated if it addressed Black or Ethnic issues in the 
	same way as it abuses the feelings of the majority of common, 
	decent people who live in Northern Ireland.

	Gerry
	(Garhiod O'Moillon)

       
        
>	Sorry to disappoint you Mr Holohan, but I didn't turn into some 
>	nationialist, republican, gun-wielding thug.  

        Oh, I'm not disappointed Garhiod O'Moillon (or is it Gerry Mullan
        round the office?).  It takes strength and courage to stand up
        for what's right, and fight against injustice.  Don't feel bad,
        not every one is up to the task. 

>       I respect the police 
>	and the army, both the regulars and the part-timers, and the very 
>	difficult job they have to do here trying to protect the 98% of the 
>	population of Northern Ireland who want to live in peace. 

        I'm surprised you didn't join them.

>       As for 
>	the other 2%, I and the majority of the population (according to 
>	several opinion polls), would prefer to see much stricter policies 
>	enforced including capital punishment and shoot-to-kill, or 
>	preferably shoot-on-sight, to remove the terrorists from our streets.

        How's about the folks who never committed a crime, like lawyer
        Pat Finucane, or Fergal Caraher, or Patrick Hill etc. etc. etc.  
        Should we shoot them too, just for good measure.
  
>	  And 
>	just as a by-the-way, the RUC have put away more Loyalist terrorists 
>	than Republican ones during the past couple of years - so much for 
>	the collusion theory.  (Something tells me he already has a glib 
>	answer to that!)
      
        Collusion theory?  Try reading the January Amnesty International
        report on the high level collusion between the British forces and
        loyalist death squads.  Or try reading the 1991 Amnesty International
        report on British human rights violations (Section 5: Collusion).
        How's about the Helsinki Watch report on British human rights 
        violations.

        Yep the RUC, have been doing a bang up job.  Just step out of your
        UDA swearing in ceremony, and jump back in your jeep to serve and
        protect.

>	I have always been treated with civility and respect when stopped 
>	at police and army checkpoints, despite my driving license showing 
>	that I have a Catholic name.  

        Sure, they're real nice and polite to you as they point there
        weapons at your head.  Heck, you could almost call them pals.
        The Caraher family must really have it all backwards, right Gerry?

>         Which is probably why I find all of 
>	the far-fetched republican stories and news reports in this 
>	conference very hard to believe.

        Funny isn't it.  Independent human rights organizations like
        Amnesty International, and Helsinki watch paint one picture, and
        yet, here we have Gareth and Gerry with a different story.
 
>	So, like Gareth, I firmly believe that this conference is full of 
>	armchair propagandists and disinformationists like Mr Holohan who 

        You forgot to mention those "armchair propogandists" at Amnesty
        International, and Helsinki Watch.

>	Mr D'Arcy does little in his role of Moderator to stop the spread of 
>	this hatred.  This conference is supposed to be about Celtic issues 

        George believes in freedom of speech.  Wow, what a concept!  This
        conference is located in the U.S., so British censorship laws 
        can't be applied here.

>	(Garhiod O'Moillon)
        Go back to peddling neck-ties Gerry.

                               Mark

    re .0, re. 10
    
    Gerry and Gareth,
    
    You're two notes have been a breath of fresh air to this conference and
    I for one am glad that you have spoken out at last against the reams of
    biased notes that has been posted here. I began noting in this
    conference after the Warrington Bombing. I had only been in Digital 6
    months when this occurred and I was fed up with the gross
    misrepresentation of the situation in the North by a steady stream of
    propagandist basenotes posted in this conference. For my trouble I have
    been called a West-Brit and anti-Irish and received threatening mail. 
    I hope you will continue to contribute to this conference and perhaps it 
    can once again be brought back to its original topic, things Celtic.
    
    Joe.
        

    re .11
    
    yet another example of Mark's reasoned arguments. 
    
    It was wonderful to read his objective and unemotional response to
    Gerry. No insults, no name calling, no questing of motives, just Mark's
    wonderful incisive, finely honed intellect at work. 
    
    How sad I feel that we cannot benefit from Mark's wisdom face to face
    on a daily basis here in Ireland. We would all be better informed,
    sweeter natured, (dare I say it!) Christians. As it is we can but live
    our poor impoverished lives meeting one another and listening
    respectfully to the opinions of those with whom we disagree. Would that
    Mark were here to show us a better way.
    
    I hope Gerry that Mark's kindness and compassion towards you is
    appreciated and that you mend your misguided ways. I certainly intend
    to (I believe that John Fee may also learn to mend his misguided ways).
    
    At this season of reconciliation we are fortunate indeed to have such a
    voice as Mark's crying in the wilderness.
    
    Pat (from the city of Jonathan Swift whose Modest Propsal could, I
    suppose be retrospecively applied in exceptional cases)

    >	Mr D'Arcy does little in his role of Moderator to stop the spread of 
    >	this hatred.  This conference is supposed to be about Celtic issues 
    
    Mr. Mullan,
    
    Unlike some other government institutions I'm not a fan of censorship.
    Furthermore, I'm not responsible for what other people write.  I try
    however to maintain a civilized noting environment.  Of late I have
    been setting hidden any notes with personal attacks, libelous statements,
    and foul language. I will also consider classifying notes into
    pre-titled base notes. I would prefer that noters do this on their
    own accord.
    
    Peace,
    /George

 re. .12
 Joe,
   I'd like to here you expose the "gross misrepresentations" that
 you believe exist in Amnesty International, and Helsinki Watches
 human rights reports.

 re. .13

 Paul,
    Wasn't it Dr. Jonathan Swift, when asked if he were Irish
 replied, "Just because a man is born in the stable, doesn't mean 
 he's a horse".  I wouldn't hold Jonathan Swift in too high regard.

                  Mark

    
    Well Swift liked you, Mark. He put you as one of the cast of thousands
    in Gulliver's travels. 
    

    re Swift
    
    I may be wrong (and believe it or not, I am wrong from time to time)
    but I seem to remember that the remark about horses and stables was
    made by Arthur Wellsey (Duke of Wellington). 
    
    Still, again Mark, I'll bow to your superior knowledge. Can you tell me
    what other writers I should dismiss? I have always mistaken Swift for a
    satirist of world stature who exposed muddle-headedness, cant and
    sloppy thinking. I'll immediately revise my opinion.
    
    How fortunate we are to have a literary critic in our midst (or is it
    mist?). 
    
    I am so happy that I have seen the light and can now read Mark's notes
    with new eyes! I have seen the light! Now how about music? May I start
    the ball rolling:
    
    I vote that we ban the singing of Danny Boy on the grounds that some
    refer to it as the Londonderry Air and others as the Derry Air. Until
    it is decreed that only the latter name is approved by An Phoblacht and
    enforced by the protectors of civil right, it is obvious an insult to
    past generations that we should sing it at all.
    
    Also, Beethoven's Ode to Joy is obviously a dangerously pacifist piece
    deserving of our condemnation.
    
    Still, I must admit to being a neothyte in the school of political
    correctness and await guidance from my new mentor - speak O oracle!
    
    Pat (who's Paul?)

    I've never been to the six counties (although I've been to Northern
    Ireland:-).
    
    My Mum drove to Belfast from Dublin once. She had a gun poked in her face 
    at the border by a skinhead British soldier aged about 17. 
    
    I won't be in a hurry to visit given that type of welcome. 
    
    Tony.

    
    I've never been to Ireland, although I reckon I'll pay a visit one day.  
    
    Re.0 and .10.  It's good to hear first hand accounts of the situation
    on Northern Ireland.  I hope you folks continue to note here.  
    
    Mark H.  It gets very hard to even try to take you seriously.  You
    spout endless drivel about what you see as being the situation in
    Northern Ireland.  When two guys who LIVE there give first hand
    accounts of the situation, you resort to the usual Amnesty
    International, Helsinki Watch guff and basically call them liars.
    
    
    MArk R>.

    Hi Folks
    
    I've never been to the north. But have been to the south,  and will be
    returning in about four weeks.  I was born and brought up in Scotland, 
    and love the place and the people.  My freind whom I grew up with and
    went to school with, joined the Army after school.  Like all of us he
    wanted a job and saw the Army as a career.  He got shot through the
    head within two days of arriving in the North.  AI never spoke for him. 
    His parents still don't really understand why ?
    
    I lived in Brighton for thirteen years.  Was woken up by the IRA's
    attempt at democratic goverment.  This involved blowing up the biggest
    hotal on the sea front with most of the Conserative part inside. 
    Having commuted from Basingstoke to London for two years I have become
    used to the continual bomb scares as well as the real thing.  As has
    been pointed out to Mark Holohan several times the real thing is
    frightening.  Sat in my office and heard the Sussex Pub get blown up
    around the corner.  The military target was a married chef who went in
    the loo.  To ensure that no innocents were involved the Brave Boys blew
    it up at lunch time,  after all as we all know Covent Garder is really
    quiet then.  
    
    I now live in the East End of London (Bethnall Green)  which has a
    largish Irish Community and is full of Irish Pubs.  I can safely say
    the only person I have ever heard extolling the vitues of the IRA is
    Mark Holohan.  It is no coincidence that he chooses to live 3000 miles
    away.  Also it is no suprise to see that his first hand on the spot
    knowledge comes from Magazines.
    
    As is well known in here I have no time for Mark Holohan and his ill
    informed wannabe Irish Views.  However I think that by responding in
    the way he has to the earlier notes entered by people who live there he
    has shown his true colours.  Congratulations Mark Holohan.  Take a bow.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

I currently live near London :( , and was born near Newcastle.  I've
yet to visit Ireland, though that's one of my aims (for apolitical
reasons, I'd like to point out)

Back to the subject of this note, I find that comments made by various
friends and acquaintances who have either lived in or visited Ireland
are often at odds with what is reported by MHs dubious sources; I feel
I have no reason to believe the latter, apart from the fact that I'm
not exactly endeared to someone who's habitually patronising and offensive.

Chris.

    RE: .17  by CODS::POCONNELL 
    
    >I vote that we ban the singing of Danny Boy on the grounds that some
    >refer to it as the Londonderry Air and others as the Derry Air. 
    
    And all this time I thought it was "London's Derriere", but then, I
    didn't realize you could see Belfast from Helsinki, either.
    

 re. .16

 Well Eastland, he was thinking of you then when he
 wrote about yahoos. :-)  Remember those folks?
            Mark

	
	This note is in reply to .11 and .14.  It is merely a 
	statement of facts as I see them and is not meant as a personal
	attack on either of the individuals concerned.

   1.	It's Gerry, Gerard or Gerald round the office, depends who's 
	talking to me.  I answer to any and all.  It's actually Gerard but 
	only my mother still calls me that, its been Gerry since primary
	school.  Just like Vincent became Vinny, Patrick became Paddy,
	Patrick Joseph became PJ, and Adrian became Blodge.

   2.	What injustice should I be standing up against - the thugs who 
	threathened to pistol whip my wife if she didn't hand over the money
	in her cash drawer, the ones who tried to blow up the local office,
	the ones who burnt my friend to a crisp in La Mon, the ones who 
	stole our cars, the ones who issued a bomb warning at the hospital 
	the night our son was born.  What do you suggest?  Buy myself an 
	Armalite and go after the local provos!  The only injustice I have 
	ever suffered has been at the hands of the IRA.

   3.	I didn't join the Security Forces because I don't believe that they
	are being allowed to do their job properly.  The Security Forces know
	who the terrorists are, on both sides, but they are not allowed to 
	touch them without evidence to convict - despite what your friends in
	AI and HW may "know" to the contrary.  The police know who's behind
	the latest shooting or bombing but they can't act unless they have 
	hard evidence to prove a conviction.  That's why the RUC have the 
	highest suicide rate of any police force worldwide - imagine what 
	it's like seeing someone who has just shot your mate walking down 
	the road next day and smiling, knowing that you can't touch him.  
	Maybe you can then understand why one young cop decided to launch 
	his one-man attack on the local Sinn Fein offices, then shot himself.
	Or the young Catholic policewoman in Newry who topped herself 
	because she couldn't take all the people spitting at her when she was 
	walking the beat.  These's a tremendous sense of futility in trying 
	to police a section of the population who are intent on killing you. 
	If you don't police the area, they accuse you of leaving the 
	way open for Loyalist death squads, and when you do police it, they 
	fire RPG rockets at your vehicle, as per the recent attack in 
	Friendly Street in the Markets when a young cop was murdered.

   4.	I would like to reply to the comments about Pat Finucane but I 
	won't, nuff said.  I can't speak for the other two as I don't know 
	who they are, or were, I didn't know them personally.

   5.	I don't dispute that certain officers within the RUC may have 
	passed information to Loyalist groups, but I doubt that it was done 
	at a high level and I doubt that more than a very few were involved. 
	Again, it harps back to my point #3, there is a certain amount of 
	frustration within the police and, as with any large force, 
	there are bound to be some bad apples and some who will try to take 
	the law into their own hands.  I firmly believe that the RUC is 
	doing it's best to ferret out these people and dismiss them from
	the force, as is the RIR.

	Given the fact that the IRA specifically targets Catholic members 
	of the RUC, then it is unlikely that we will ever have a truly 
	religiously balanced force.  But I personally have total confidence
	in those officers who are in it at present, that they are doing the 
	best they can under daily criticism and abuse.

   6.	I've never had a weapon pointed at my head or any other part of my 
	anatomy by any member of the Security Forces.  And whilst I don't 
	call them pals, they have always been polite and civil.

   7.	I find it funnier that Gareth and myself who live here and 
	experience life here at first hand all day every day, are in total 
	disagreement with members of AI and HW who pop over once or twice 
	a year to speak to republican sympathisers and terrorists.  Do you 
	think it could be they who are possibly getting a slightly biased
	picture?

   8.	The conference may be in the US but the EasyNET crosses national 
	and international boundaries so this does not give you some 
	constitutional right to post inflamatory and biased notes from your 
	sources in the republican movement.  Digital is not a US company, 
	it is a worldwide company encompassing peoples of many beliefs and
	cultures - you have no right to ignore the feelings of these people 
	just to further your own ends.  Try to bear this in mind when 
	posting and replying to notes.  It's not censorship, it's good 
	manners.

   9.	I have been reading this conference for some time now and I have 
	always sworn never to get involved in the to-ing and fro-ing and
	insult passing that dominates it.  Also, with living here, there is 
	always the threat of repercussions from those who do not agree with
	your point of view - and I'm not referring merely to the verbal abuse
	from Mark.  But as Mark has said, you sometimes have to have the 
	strength and courage to stand up for what's right and to state the 
	case as you see it.

	I have simply tried to state my feelings without getting into 
	name-calling.  I don't want to perpetuate this to-ing and fro-ing.
	I would appreciate any further comments being directed at issues 
	raised and an end to direct personal attacks.

  10.	Since we don't have the sanctity of the US Constition over here to 
	protect us, and since I have raised the issue of Moderation of this 
	conference, the next reply contains the rules and regulations by 
	which we in the Belfast office are bound, both by law and by 
	Digital Personnel Policies.  The rules were laid down
	by the Fair Employment Commission initially to protect Catholic 
	workers in mainly Protestant workplaces, such as Shorts and the 
	shipyard, but have since been expanded to cover any section of the 
	community employed in any workplace dominated by the opposite section
	of the community.  Be thankful that at least six of the signatories 
	to the Constitution were Scots/Irish Presbeyterians and not Irish 
	Nationalists or you might have been a lot worse off!  

	How would you in America feel about being banned from flying the 
	Stars and Stripes over your public buildings and workplaces?  
	Or having the singing of the national anthem banned at the Superbowl?
	Or from displaying pictures of your President in the workplace?

  11.	George, I appreciate that Conference Moderator is a very difficult 
	job at the best of times, but whilst you are not responsible for 
	what people write, you do have a responsibility towards the full 
	membership of the conference to ensure that what is visible is  
	fair and accurate.  Bear in mind that a large section of the readers 
	of this conference are not nationalist or republican, (or loyalist) 
	and we resent having republican propaganda posted without regard to 
	it's origin or accuracy.  We don't post loyalist or unionist press 
	statements which are readily available here, and as Gareth has said,
	we don't like being a political football.

	*****************************************************************

	The staff in Belfast come from both communities and we have never, 
	in the fifteen years I have worked here, had any political or 
	religious problems in the workplace.  There is always a lot of good
	natured banter but never anything malicious.  Our Field Service 
	engineers, through working together, have come first in Europe for
	the past four years in the customer survey, proving that we can work
	together and help each other out regardless of religious belief or 
	political opinion.  All right, its only 75 out of a population of 
	one and a half million - but its a start.

	Why can't the rest of you out there in the world let us get on with
	it and stop trying to stir up trouble or promote your own personal 
	vendettas against the British, the Irish, the Fenians, the Prods, 
	the Nationalists, the Unionists, the Republicans, the Loyalists or 
	whatever other group happens to be flavour of the month for a bit 
	of note-bashing.

	If you can't be constructive in your noting, then as someone has 
	already said, take it elsewhere.  If you want to do a bit of 
	Northern Ireland bashing, then start your own conference for it and 
	those of us living here will know to avoid it.  Those of us with an 
	interest in Celtic culture and peoples can then get on with finding
	out about that in here, and we will also be happy to answer any 
	queries from those of you wishing to visit this island, north or
	south.  Both Tourist Boards are just down the road in the centre of 
	town.  In fact, I've installed systems in both.  

	Gerry

	The following are the rules and regulations that we in Belfast have 
	to work to.  It might be an idea to adopt them in the Moderation 
	of this conference.


			DIGITAL - DECLARATION OF PROTECTION

	PREAMBLE

	This Declaration of Protection has been drawn up in recognition of 
	the moral and statutory responsibilities placed upon Employers by 
	the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Acts 1976 and 1989 and the 
	Declaration of Economic Development (DED) Fair Employment Code of 
	Practice.


	The Management of Digital Equipment Company Limited


	DECLARATION

   1.	declare and fully accept that discrimination or victimisation in 
	employment is unlawful and unacceptable.  We are committed to ensuring
	that any discrimination or victimisation carried out by employees will
	be vigorously opposed by the Company.

   2.	accept that every employee has the right to work free from 
	intimidation or harassment on the grounds of religious or political 
	opinion.

   3.	condemn intimidation or harassment by word or actions, and commit 
	themselves to take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of 
	employees from intimidation or harassment in the workplace from 
	persons of other religious beliefs or political opinion.  Such 
	intimidation or harassment will be regarded as an offence of gross 
	misconduct which may warrant dismissal.

   4.	the Company declares that its premises shall be a neutral work 
	environment.  It therefore prohibits the display of flags, emblems, 
	posters, graffiti or the circulation of any material or deliberate 
	articulation of slogans or songs which are likely to give offence or 
	cause apprehension to a particular group of employees.

   5.	the Company will oppose any attempt to prevent the employment, 
	continued employment or career development of any person in 
	contravention of the Fair Employment (NI) Acts.

   6.	the Company is committed to ensuring that no employee is less 
	favourably treated because he/she has taken action connected with 
	the Fair Employment (NI) Acts.


	ACTION

	the Company will issue this declaration to each employee and will 
	ensure that the declaration is prominently displayed in the workplace.


	REVIEW

	the Company will keep the effectiveness of this policy under 
	constant review.


	Signed on behalf of Company:

	Laura McKeaveney
	PERSONNEL MANAGER

	Date:  March 1994

    I have been to Ireland about a dozen times, and visited the North
    only once back in 1987 with former Deccie Paddy Culbert. We spent
    a week in "Andytown" in West Belfast, living with Paddy's cousins.
    We were lucky to have a friend who offered to show us the "Sites".


    It was truly a week I'll never ever forget.
    
    
    Things that come to mind are:
    
    Barbed Wire
    Soldiers & Guns
    RUC
    Black Taxis
    Long Kesh (from the inside)
    Miltown Cemetary
    Sheamus Duffy aged 16 killed by a "Plastic Bullet"    
    Shankill Road
    Snooker
    Bic
    Castlerea
    Chinese Take Away Shops
    Road Blocks
    The Culbert Family    
    Murals
    Bangor
    Downtown Belfast
    UDR
    Travelers
    Tenants Beer
    Ballymurphy    
    Conway Mills
    Bomb Scares
    Mary Black Concert in Andersonstown Leisure Centre
    Walking the Falls Road at 2.00 am
    
    
    The best part was meeting many people that became good friends. The worst
    part was to see how the "Troubles' have effected EVERYONES lives in North.
    
    Anyone who does not believe that "Hell is on Earth" has not been to
    West Belfast.
    
    I will go back again to visit my friends.
    
    
	keVin
    

  >11.	George, I appreciate that Conference Moderator is a very difficult 
  >	job at the best of times, but whilst you are not responsible for 
  >	what people write, you do have a responsibility towards the full 
  >	membership of the conference to ensure that what is visible is  
  >	fair and accurate.  Bear in mind that a large section of the readers 
  >	of this conference are not nationalist or republican, (or loyalist) 
  >	and we resent having republican propaganda posted without regard to 
  >	it's origin or accuracy.  We don't post loyalist or unionist press 
  >	statements which are readily available here, and as Gareth has said,
  >	we don't like being a political football.

    Gerry a chara, I've got better things to do with my time here at
    Digital than to filter every note that goes into this NON-WORK-RELATED
    notesfile. I'm trying to bring the company back to profitability 
    (in my own little way possible) so that I will have a job next month.
    Half of the notes entered are so long that I don't have time to read
    them. 

    Short of making this conference a members-only conference, there is no
    practical way I can prevent people from entering notes. If a certain
    noter has views with which you do not agree, then simply do a "NEXT/UNSEEN".
    I urge that all noters please use existing basenotes for future notes
    if a match can be found.  Follow Dennis Ahern's examples.  Also, please
    be civilized when noting.
    
    If this doesn't satisfy you, then I suggest that you start a Northern
    Ireland notesfile on your system.  Everyone can then enter their
    politically-oriented notes on it and consume your disk space, your
    network links, and you can then moderate it as you see fit...
    
    George

 Gerry,
 
  How does your note supporting shoot-on-sight, and
 shoot-to-kill policies fit in with Belfast Digital's
 Declaration of Protection?  I would say that support
 for these types of policies is the highest level of
 intimidation that an employee can show.  You'd like
 to see no information posted on these policies, or
 on the PTA etc. How does that fit in with valueing
 the differences I have?  What of my family that live 
 in London and are subjected to these laws designed 
 to intimidate the Irish population.

  How does your support of collusion between the 
 British forces and loyalist death squads fit in with
 Digital policies and procedures. Which you've
 done by standing up and basically calling the 
 representatives of Amnesty International, and Helsinki
 watch, liars or duped fools.

  For my relatives who are subject to oppressive and
 internationally condemned British legislation, I find
 your words intimidating and harassing.

  What do you fear from people reading Human rights
 reports, or statements from Human rights activists?
 What do you fear from seeing U.S., British, and Irish
 news articles posted here?  What do you fear from 
 allowing Nationalists to be heard?

  You may think none of this is the business of 
 Americans, but I'll tell you that Britain made it the
 worlds business when they became signatories to the 
 U.N. declarations on human rights.


                           Mark
 

    
>    I urge that all noters please use existing basenotes for future notes
>    if a match can be found.  Follow Dennis Ahern's examples.  
    
     Fat chance.  Thanks anyway. 
     

    RE: .25
    
    Bravo Sir, bravo.
    
    George,
    
    You could always ask for other people to help moderate. I moderate
    several non-work-related conferences, and always as part of a team. We
    try to ensure that wherever the sun happens to be setting on this
    network of ours, there's a mod somewhere to pick up the reins. Where
    the conference is a "political" one, and bias on the part of a
    moderator is possible or likely, we make collective decisions, out of a
    sense of fairness. No moderator in "our" conferences would make a major
    decision based on emotion without passing it to the others first. PP&P
    is quite another matter.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    
    
    I was once a co-moderator in this notefile.
    
    Because of that role, I almost lost a few good friends and finally
    got tired of being a put in a position where friendship was jeopardized.
    
    As George Darcy has told you, it's not an easy job.
    
    
    
    keVin
     
    
    	
    
    
    
    
    

Hi All,

After reading through the previous replies I feel I have to put in my views.

I was born in N. Ireland and have lived here now for nearly 35 years and would
not live anywhere else. I haved lived in East Belfast now for nearly 8 years
of this and come from a Protestant background.

What happens in this country could make me cry sometimes, this is probably one
of the most beautiful areas in the world. We have the Giants Causeway, the
Glens of Antrim, Strangford Lough with its brilliant sea fishing, and probably
the best trout and salmon fishing in the world. As you can guess I am an avid
fisherman, so not only do I go round the country on work, but also I travel
for my hobby. 

When I go fishing I meet people from all walks of life who share my interest
and it does not matter to any of us what religion you are. I also meet a lot
of anglers who come to Ireland year after year from England, Germany and the
USA. Who also believe this is a beautiful country.

I believe you see what you want to see. I have had Digital people come from
all over the world to N.I. and what they expect is soldiers, barbed wire, etc.
We take these people and show them the rest of N.I. and they say it is a 
beautiful place. The media which feeds us focuses on the hatred that lies in
the minority of the population, this is what the world wants to see. How often
do we watch the news media and see good news, people love to see how badly
off other people are.

I have also travelled abroad quite alot with Digital and the two times I have
been frightened in my life where, once in Munich airport where I was strip
searched after getting of a British Airways flight from London. The second was
when on a course in Nice in the S. of France when four of us went to Monte
Carlo for the evening and we where stoped by two policemen who were not very
polite and threatened to take us to the station as illegal immigrants. This was
because myself and another English person had no ID on us. These have never
happened to me in N.I. In N.I. i have been stopped at checkpoints and let 
through even with no ID, and I have never been strip serached.

These two occurences do not mean I have never returned to these two countries
for I have, and they are good places which have there problems to, but with 
not as much focus as N.I.

My view is that if you have never been here then come and see what its is like
with an open mind, which my the sounds of it would be difficult for some. If
you can not do this then I feel sorry for you as you are missing the best part.

Regards
Ronnie Doggart

	Well this has degraded into a Mark and George versus me note which 
	is exactly what I was trying to avoid.  Despite the input from 
	three current Northern Ireland residents of different backgrounds, 
	I feel that this conference is still no further towards an 
	understanding of the actual situation here.  Things seem so much 
	clearer from 3000 miles away.

	Mark is obviously so set in his ways that no amount of persuasion 
	from residents on Northern Ireland is likely to change his opinion 
	of what life is really like here.  Maybe the next time you're over 
	here Mark, you'll call into the local office and you'll see how 
	Catholics and Protestants can work and live together in harmony 
	without resort to daily confrontation with each other.  And I might 
	even stand you a pint or three if you can try to put your prejudices
	away for a while and just try to see the goodness in this country 
	and the majority of it's people.

	And George has admitted that he doesn't bother moderating the 
	conference properly because he doesn't have the time to read long 
	notes.  I hope that he will accept the offer of assistance which has
	been extended to him.  I will persue his suggestion of setting up a 
	conference in Belfast, not to deal with bashing Northern Ireland as 
	I feel CELT does a pretty good job at that already, but one to try 
	to show the better side of life in this troubled isle, both north 
	and south.

	A very big thank you to all of those noters who took the trouble to 
	mail me directly with their messages of support.  They were really 
	appreciated.

	Regards, in frustration and desperation,

	Gerry
	

    Yes, there WAS a point, Gerry. You and Gareth provided valuable first
    hand information about Northern Ireland. That, as any historian will tell 
    you, is far more valuable than second-hand regurgitations (is that right, 
    Laurie? :-)) of articles, be they British, Irish, American or whatever.

 re. .34
 You're wrong Gerry.  I agree one hundred percent with
 your statement in .34, that "Catholics and Protestants
 can work and live together in harmony".  That's the
 best thing you've put in here so far.

 On the other hand, your support in previous notes for
 policies of shoot-to-kill, and a dismissal of the 
 documented collusion by human rights organizations, 
 tells me you have another agenda in mind.  That being 
 to discredit the facts.

 I might even take you up on a pint, next time I visit,
 if you can put aside your prejudice towards human
 rights organizations, and your prejudice against 
 people who believe that shooting suspects on sight
 is a bad idea.  I might even give you some "first hand"
 info" on how the PTA affects the Irish community in
 London.

                     Mark


 

    RE: .33 by BELFST::DOGGART 
    
    >When I go fishing I meet people from all walks of life who share my
    >interest and it does not matter to any of us what religion you are. 
    
    But what I find most striking, Ronnie, is that even in this note,
    people feel a need to declare whether they come from a Protestant or
    Catholic background.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not suggesting that you
    mean anything by it, but rather it's so embedded in the culture that
    even the taxis have religion.
    
    >I believe you see what you want to see. I have had Digital people come
    >from all over the world to N.I. and what they expect is soldiers,
    >barbed wire, etc. We take these people and show them the rest of N.I.
    >and they say it is a  beautiful place. ...
    
    A beautiful place, as you say, but even in the Glens of Antrim, the
    police station in the tiny town of Cushendall is a bunkered fortress
    surrounded by barbed wire.  It was not always like this.  I read a book
    about the town, written around the turn of the century, which contained
    a picturesque passage of the lone policeman sitting in his little
    station looking out the window at the sea with little to do in such
    a peaceful and pleasant place.  I hope such a time can come again by
    the turn of the next century, but unless people shed their grasp on
    religion as the main definer of their identity, we will never see peace.
    

>> I might even give you some "first hand"
>> info" on how the PTA affects the Irish community in
>> London.
    
    What do you mean by "first hand"? Either it is or it isn't. If you've
    not experienced it personally, then it isn't first hand, however good
    you may consider your sources.

    I think if you scan this notesfile Gerry, you will find many
    non-political notes which discuss different aspects of the North,
    i.e. culture, sightseeing, music, etc.  And I agree whole heartedly
    with Ronnie's well-written note that there are far more interesting 
    things to discuss about the North than the obvious Troubles.
    
    To continue, I find it interesting that most everyone states that he
    or she would prefer to discuss other non-political aspects of Celtic
    culture, and yet most everyone seems to only reply to notes about the
    Troubles, and most of them time with silly, repetitive, redundant,
    inane replies like "I told you so", "Like they really want peace",
    etc.
    
    This conference has been going on for 8 years now without major
    problems until late.  I suggest that you all "note" about the
    better things in Celtic life, like Guinness, golf, and Daniel O'Donnell
    (just slagging) and simply ignore those that you find unpleasant.      
    
    Back to work,
    George

    What a wonderful world we live in.  A guy asks a simple question :
    "Who has been to Northern Ireland" and all he gets is dog's abuse.
    
    And, before you know it, it's become like any other topic in this
    conference.  Maybe we should try something a little less contentious..
    
    Abortion or Gun Control anyone ???  :-)
    
    
    Happy Easter everybody.
    
    Mark R.

     Did you hear that Daniel O'Donnell got a 14 year old girl in "trouble".
    

    He told her mother that she was smoking. @:^))))
    
    
    
    SCott

    Who is this Daniel O'Donnell and has he ever actually been to NI?
    
    And is he a Catholic or a Protestant "trouble" maker?
    

    
    
    	I've been to NI (1993).
    
    	Pat

    Mark, the only agenda I had in mind was to sink a few pints in a
    neutral part of Belfast to show you the better side of life here which
    everyone can share in, regardless of their background.  I was thinking
    more in terms of the Crown Bar in the city centre, Belfast's oldest pub,
    rather than the Ulster Arms in east Belfast, the UDA's unofficial 
    headquarters.  
    
    Gerry
    

    Hi Dennis
    
    Re your .37, I mentioned my background because I wanted everyone in
    this confernece to see that not all people who were brought up as
    Catholics turned out to be nationalists or republicians - some of us
    actually enjoy the benefits of being British and are not ashamed to say
    so.
    
    Gerry
    

    Hi George
    
    You're quite right.  I did a directory of the conference back to 1st
    Jan this year and there are more notes about where to go and what to
    see in Ireland than there are about the situation in the North, 32 of
    general interest with 238 replies versus only 26 relating to the North
    with 738 replies.
    
    Gerry
    

    re .15
    
    >>   I'd like to here you expose the "gross misrepresentations" that
    >> you believe exist in Amnesty International, and Helsinki Watches
    >> human rights reports.
    
    First of all, I was referring to all the drivel you put in here from An
    Phoblacht and other terrorist mouth-pieces and the blatantly
    anti-British propaganda (See 1020 "America for sale" for a prime
    example of a non-Celt related anti-Brit piece of waffle). I myself have
    pointed out mis-representations in the article by Bernadette Devlin and
    the "Republican Women Speak" items recently. Unfortunately I don't have
    the time I would like to reply to all the junk in as comprehensive a
    manner as I would like. 
    
    Also, why do the Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch articles you 
    post never criticize the IRA. Perhaps you're not entering the whole 
    reports?
    
    There have been suggestions that we just ignore the Republican-oriented
    base notes and hit next unseen, but unfortunately that is not good
    enough, as this would give new readers of this conference a totally
    unbalanced and inaccurate view of Ireland. I think that a good point
    was made a few back, that if the same amount of UDA/UFF propaganda was
    entered here, there would be uproar.
	
    Joe.

    Kind of going back to the note where someone mentioned that "even the
    taxis have religion."  Do Catholics and Protestants intermarry?  I'm
    writing from the US and it is seldom an issue over here.  My father
    was Catholic and my mother Protestant.  Some people in a town near me
    hosted some little kids from Belfast for the summer, a couple of years
    ago.  The kids were amazed that Protestants and Catholics intermarried. 
    They also played with other kids and always introduced themselves as
    "I'm Catholic" first, which left everyone a little bemused.  So do
    people over in NI feel a need to identify, in social situations, their
    religious denomination?                

    Yes, they do intermarry.  But generally they don't advertise it if they
    are living in a predominently Nationalist or Loyalist area, lest they
    can become what is known as "soft targets" for the terrorists.
    
    What I find interesting is that the religious classifications have no
    bearing on religiousness. I.e. people may claim they are Catholic or
    Protestant but may be in fact non-practicing.
    
    I saw a show on those summer programs. It was generally positive,
    except that there is reluctance and obvious difficulty in keeping contacts
    after returning to Ireland.  The only hope is truly integrated housing,
    schooling, and less religious influence in non-religious matters.

    While I was in Belfast last Fall, the victim-of-the-day one day was a
    young girl, I think she was 12 or 13, who had spent a holiday the
    previous Summer at one of these programs in America where kids of both
    religions spend two weeks together.  It was reported that, while it's
    generally true that these kids revert to their own-side exclusivity
    after the holiday, this girl had continued to meet her new friend every
    week to go swimming.  
    
    But I would hope that these programs continue.  There's a lot that
    needs to be unlearned.
    

 re. .48
  Joe, quite frankly most of what you put in here is
 drivel.  At least by reading articles from AP/RN we
 can hear a republican viewpoint.  Have you read much
 of AP/RN, and compared their complaints to the 
 information from the U.S. state department (that I
 just posted), and the information from AI, and 
 Helsinki Watch?  Much of what AP/RN says, is confirmed
 by these independent organizations.  I suppose now
 you'll stoop to calling AI, Helsinki Watch, or the
 U.S. state department reports as coming from 
 "terrorist mouth-pieces".  I'd like to point out
 that when the British government was lieing to the
 world about it's contacts with the Irish Republican
 Army, AP/RN were reporting the truth on the contacts.
 I don't know about you, but I'll give more credence
 to truthful reports from a republican viewpoint, than
 British press reports from confirmed liars like the
 British government.

 As for note 1020, nothing in that post is false. Is
 posting the truch now considered "propoganda".

 I have copies of the whole report by AI in 1991 of
 British Human Rights violations in North Ireland.
 Next time you are in ZKO, stop by and I'll give you
 a copy to read, unless of course you are afraid of
 the truth.  Can come to my office without shaking in
 your boots?

 Oh and by the way, we already get plenty of UDA/UFF
 propoganda, via the British press out of northern
 Ireland.  My personal disgust is for the shameful way
 they always excuse UDA/UFF/RUC attacks on innocent civilians,
 as reprisals for Irish Republican Army attacks on
 British forces.  And if the IRA are referred to as
 terrorists, I'd like to see the British forces referred
 to as the "state-sponsored terrorists".

                        Mark

    re .52
    
    So why is 1020 in this conference. What possible relevance has it. The fact
    that you would post such non-relevant information exposes your mind-set
    towards the UK. You are incapable of seeing that what you post is
    propaganda. 
    
     >>Oh and by the way, we already get plenty of UDA/UFF
     >>propoganda, via the British press out of northern
     >>Ireland. 
    
    I don't read any british newspapers. I get my contemporary information
    from sources like the Irish Times, Irish Independant and the like.
    Certainly many of the British tabloids are propaganda rags (for both
    the tories and labour), but I would'nt take what they say seriously.
    
    So are you saying that every word written by the Irish press (in
    general, not the paper of that name) is taken from the British
    Government? I suppose all those papers are run by West-Brits so their
    opinion can't be taken seriously? 
    
    >>My personal disgust is for the shameful way
    >> they always excuse UDA/UFF/RUC attacks on innocent civilians,
    >> as reprisals for Irish Republican Army attacks on
    >> British forces.
    
    I have never read an article in a mainstream Irish paper that attempted
    to make such an assertion.
    
    >>I suppose now you'll stoop to calling AI, Helsinki Watch, or the
    >> U.S. state department reports as coming from "terrorist mouth-pieces". 
     No I reserve that for AP/RN.
    It is good that such reports are made public, so that people do
    not become complacent. However two wrongs never made a right and to use
    these as an excuse for civil war is unjustifiable, imo.
    Particularly when there is a democratic path to rectify the situation.
    
    Joe.
    
                                                          

    RE: .52  by KOALA::HOLOHAN 
    
 >As for note 1020, nothing in that post is false. Is
 >posting the truch [sic] now considered "propoganda".
    
    Propaganda and truth are not mutually exclusive.  
    
    What is offensive to some people in here is not what you are saying but
    how you are saying it.  If CELTS were a pub, and you kept showing up
    every night to read us the latest tract of inherited gospel from EITHER
    side, you would be ingored as a tiresome boor, and before long shown the
    door.  If you want to sit by the fire, raise your pint, and try
    earnestly to convince us, you might have better luck, but if you keep
    trying to ram bit buckets full of partisan parlance down our collective
    throats, you're going to find yourself out in the yard, boyo.
    

    
    RE R.C/Prot mixing.
    
    	There is currently a very well run and excellently attended
    swimming club in Belfast. The organiser has had public recognition
    for his efforts in bringing the children from both sides together.
    I can't remember the clubs name but I remember the TV program well.
    If there were more clubs of this type set up throught the province
    maybe in a couple of generations there would be no need for peace
    talks. One other way this could be enhanced would be to abolish 
    Catholic schools so that every child was introduced to a mixed
    race environment from the age of 5. 

    RE: .55  by KIRKTN::GMCKEE 
    
    >One other way this could be enhanced would be to abolish Catholic
    >schools so that every child was introduced to a mixed race environment
    >from the age of 5.                              ^^^^^^^^^^
    
    The idea that denying Catholics the right to have their own schools
    would somehow lessen "the troubles" was startling enough, but you
    surpassed this when you suggested that they are not even the same race
    as Protestants.
    
    Tell me, please, how education is funded in Northern Ireland?  Are the
    Catholic schools funded the same as public schools?  In the United
    States tax money may not be used to fund religious education or
    parochial schools.  In areas where there is a high population of one
    religion, there may be schools as large, and as well, if not better
    funded than the public, tax-supported schools, but they are all
    considered private and are paid for by tuition.
    
    I noticed when travelling in Newfoundland that the schools in each
    community were governed by whatever the dominant religion was in that
    community, but that they were all state-funded.  For example, the
    villages along the Southeast coast of the Avalon Peninsula were mostly
    Catholic and had a Catholic school, whereas the village of Sop's Arm,
    up in the Northwest had schooling by the local fundamentalist church.
    
    How are the schools funded in Belfast?  In a country that has an
    established religion, such as Great Britain, is the separation of
    church and state a foreign concept?
    

    
    Sorry , mixed race may not have been the correct words to use but 
    it does seem to be racial/tribal/religious differences that are at
    the center of the trouble in NI. I should have used non-denominational
    which I'm sure you know I meant.
    
    Now the MAIN point, in Scotland we have several types of schooling and
    I would suspect that NI has a similar situation.
    
    1) privately run  :-where you pay to have your child educated.
    
    2) non denominational :-where ANYONE can have their children educated.
    
    3) Catholic	      :-where generaly only Catholics have their children
    			educated.   
    
    now WHY do catholics need to have their own ? WHY when everybody has the
    right to education does there need to be separtate schooling for this
    denomination ? When I started school there was always fights between
    the local Primary schools and the local Catholic primary. In my mother
    and fathers day it was the same and in my grand parents day it was the
    same. We are talking about kids from 5 years and upwards learning to
    disrespect and even hate each other. . There are no Hindu,
    Jewish,Mormon,Budhist,Black only,White only,Scientologist.....(what ever
    you want) schools, only CATHOLIC and THE REST (unless of course you pay
    for it then you can send your kid wherever you want).Now does it not 
    make sense that if the kids had mixed right from the start that they 
    would have grown up without the religious differences being built in
    along with their education. 
     As I have said before, the swimming club was organised so that the
     children, whatever their religion, can mix. It is been highly
    acclaimed as a positive step in bringing the 2 sides together from an
    early age to prevent the differences from becoming ingrained. What I 
    suggested was that the mixing of the backgrounds could happen on a
    MUCH larger scale and possibly in 2-3 generations time a lot of the
    hatred would have diluted enough for peace to occur naturally and not
    be dictated to the present generation of adults who may have no
    interest. 
    	If however you think that my comments are a backhanded attempt
    to deny Catholics their right to a good education then you are 
    WAY OFF THE MARK, if you were to look at the records of all British
    schools I doubt that religion would be a factor when it came
    which schools are better more to do with where they are situated
    than anything else.
    
    Gordon... 

    RE: .57 & .58  by KIRKTN::GMCKEE 
    
    >Now the MAIN point, in Scotland we have several types of schooling and
    >I would suspect that NI has a similar situation.
    
    >1) privately run  :-where you pay to have your child educated.
    
    >2) non denominational :-where ANYONE can have their children educated.
    
    >3) Catholic	   :-where generaly only Catholics have their children
    >			educated.   
    
    Who pays for 2 and 3, the state, or the parents?  In the U.S. parents
    pay for 1 & 3, and the state, or town, or county, depending on where
    you are pays for 2.  
    
    Do taxes pay for Catholic schooling in Great Britain and Northern
    Ireland?  This is a concept that is alien to me as we have
    constitutional protections in the U. S. to prevent the establishment of
    a state religion.
    
    >WHY do catholics need to have their own ? WHY when everybody has the
    >right to education does there need to be separtate schooling for this
    >denomination ? 
    
    It depends on whether or not religion is taught in the schools.  If the
    state schools teach the state religion, then taxpayers who are of a
    different religion should not be forced to support them or send their
    children to them to be educated against their beliefs.  Of course, the
    intelligent thing to do would be to change the system of government
    from a monarchy to a republic.  Then you could be citizens with
    individual rights rather than subjects of a monarch who is divinely
    given to be the head of the established church as well as Queen.
    
    Actually, this head of the established church thing doesn't apply, I
    believe, in Scotland.  Can someone tell me if it applies in Northern
    Ireland?
    

Re: Why do Amnesty and Helsinki Watch focus on Govts. and not Terrorists

Terrorism is generally regarded as a criminal venture. It concerns the
terrorist and the victim but is largely contained to those parties. On the
other hand when a Govt. starts acting outside the law the potential exists
for widespread denial of human rights. Over the years if you were to total the
number of people killed by Govts. and those killed by terrorists it would be
like comparing a barrel of corn to a grain of the same. I'm sure that 
nobody at Amnesty supports terrorism, in whatever name it's conducted, and
that as individuals they are as disgusted at these murders as the rest of us.
But they document the activities of Govts. and that's their charter.

Re: Amnesty and Helsinki watch as Propaganda

I believe that what these organizations document is the truth [obviously I don't
know whether the reports are altered before they're posted]. Even the experts
at propaganda rarely tell lies, because they could be too easily discredited.
The main tool of the "propagandist" is termed "distortion by selection". You
pick what supports your case and ignore what doesn't. In the old USSR they
would  show trade union activity and homeless people, they painted a completly
false picture of life in the west although they hardly ever told lies.

In this context the Replican Movement always report on human rights violations
by the British and discount their own activities as being necessary to achieve
a United Ireland. The British Govt. report at great length the consequences
of terrorist action but never report on any of the historical context or why
the terrorists might be doing what they do. "Distortion by selection" is 
practiced by all sides in Ireland.

Re: Catholics vs Protestants

The conflict in Ireland has *nothing* *whatsoever* to do with Religion.
The "Catholics" are the descendents of the original settlers of Ireland. 
The "Protestants" are the descendents of the 16th/17th Century Scotish and 
English immigrants to Ireland. This is why prefer the terms "Irish" for the
"Catholics" and "Scots-Irish" for the "Protestants". It would be a classic
colonial war of indepenence if it were not the antiquity of Scots-Irish 
settlement [300-400 rears].

Mark
 

 re. .54

 "Propaganda and truth are not mutually exclusive."

 That's right, if you don't like the truth, then you
 call it propoganda.

 "you're going to find yourself out in the yard, boyo"

 It better be a pretty big boyo that plans on
 putting me out in the yard.

 re. .55
 "mixed race"?

 You go on the false assumption that Protestants and
 Catholics can't live together, or need to be shown the
 way to live together.  The way is to stop the British
 government from it's continuous and covert attempts to
 divide the two communities. 
 In the U.S. we even go so far as to not consider
 Protestants or Catholics a different race. What a
 concept. 

                    Mark

    
    AS I HAVE ALREADY STATED....
    
    Mixed race was a bad choice of words and stated that NON-DENOMINATIONAL
    should have been used. As usual though you either have not read my
    correction or chosen to jump in and criticise. My simple statement is
    this. If everybody went to a non-denominational school in Scotland 
    then all the different groups would be MIXING TOGETHER from an age
    that concepts/impressions of other people are most likely to stick.
    If the parents or the children want to practise their religions then
    fine, that is up to them, but why do they have to be split up when
    they go to school.
    
    This concept can already be seen in England where (as with America)
    the Catholic/Protestant differences are hardly ever seen or heard
    of.
    
    re *NOTHING*WHATSOEVER* etc....
    
    Shows how much out of touch some people are. As Mark H has pointed out
    Catholics have had a hard time of it in NI and probably in some cases
    in Scotland. A favorite question in the past (before most
    discrimination laws were passed) when job hunting was...
    
    "What school did you go to sonny ?" 
    
    ...which had absolutely nothing to do with the employer trying to find
    out what sort of education the potential employee had. 
    
    
    Gordon...
    
    

    RE: .61  by KIRKTN::GMCKEE 
    
    >AS I HAVE ALREADY STATED....
    
    >Mixed race was a bad choice of words and stated that NON-DENOMINATIONAL
    >should have been used. As usual though you either have not read my
    >correction or chosen to jump in and criticise. My simple statement is
    
    Considering the source, I'd be willing to bet Mark's just jumping in to
    criticize, but it IS possible he replied before reading your correction.
    
    >This concept [non-denominational schools] can already be seen in
    >England where (as with America) the Catholic/Protestant differences are
    >hardly ever seen or heard of.
    
    I grew up and went to parochial school in America.  I think I was in
    6th grade before I realized there were people in our town who WEREN'T
    Catholic, let alone not Irish.  ;-)
    
    >As Mark H has pointed out Catholics have had a hard time of it in NI
    >and probably in some cases in Scotland. 
    
    When I was sixteen, I spent the Summer with a family of Scots Catholics
    in Edinburgh.  I remember seeing the anti-Catholic graffiti on the way
    to mass.  I had never heard of such nonsense before.  And this the 20th
    century, no less.
    
    BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to fill me in on how primary and
    secondary education is funded in Northern Ireland and whether state
    schools teach religion.  
    

        
>    BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to fill me in on how primary and
>    secondary education is funded in Northern Ireland and whether state
>    schools teach religion.  
 

     They will be state funded.The teaching of Religion in state run schools
    is compulsory.
    
     SCott
    

    RE: .63  by KIRKTN::SNEIL 
    
>>    BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to fill me in on how primary and
>>    secondary education is funded in Northern Ireland and whether state
>>    schools teach religion.  
 
    >They will be state funded.The teaching of Religion in state run
    >schools is compulsory.
    
    Does the state fund the Catholic schools as well, or are they paid for
    by private tuition?
    

    
    
     They are state run as well.
    
    
    
    SCott

    re .56 etc. The Catholic schools throughout the U.K.,like all non
    private schools,(just to confuse matters some of the private secondary 
    schools are referred to as Public schools ), are funded mainly by a 
    combination of local and national taxes. The difference is that the 
    Catholic schools receive some money from the Catholic church to contribute 
    to the construction of the school building and it's subsequent upkeep. In
    these schools religious education, which is a part of the curriculum in
    all schools, is provided by the Catholic church. The general perception
    is that Catholic schools give a good education, with marginally less
    discipline problems than other non private schools.
    
                               Dennis

    State-funded schools throughout the UK can be non-sectarian (the majority) 
    or aided/controlled by a Church group. The majority of Church schools' 
    funding comes from the state, though in many cases they are aided (by 
    provision of land, the school buildings, etc) by a Church group. Usually 
    in England, this is Roman Catholic or Church of England, though there 
    are a number of Muslim schools in the state sector now.
    
    Note that your denomination doesn't preclude you from going to a Church
    school. I have a Methodist friend who attended a Catholic school for a 
    while, and you'll often find non-Christians from Indian backgrounds in 
    Church of England schools. In these circumstances, you get to opt out of
    religious events (e.g. Mass) if you object, and if these are normally 
    required at your school.
    
    Religion is taught at all state schools, though in the majority (I
    can't speak for Church schools), it tends to be comparative religions
    these days. Even back in the late 70s/early 80s when I was at school, 
    we learned about Hinduism and Judaism as well as Christianity.    
    
    As far as other subjects are concerned, these are now prescribed in the
    National Curriculum, so going to a Church school doesn't mean that you
    get a disproportionately large amount of Religious Studies.
                         
    John

 >  How are the schools funded in Belfast?  In a country that has an
 >   established religion, such as Great Britain, is the separation of
 >   church and state a foreign concept?
 
    Minor nit: Great Britain does not have an established religion. England
    has the Church of England (Epsicopal; somewhere between Protestant and
    Catholic depending on your local church); Scotland has the Church of
    Scotland, which is a Presbyterian Church, and in Wales there has been
    no established religion since earlier this century.
    
    John 

    RE: .68  by IOSG::DAVEYJ 
    
    >Minor nit: Great Britain does not have an established religion. England
    >has the Church of England (Epsicopal; somewhere between Protestant and
    >Catholic depending on your local church); Scotland has the Church of
    >Scotland, which is a Presbyterian Church, and in Wales there has been
    >no established religion since earlier this century.
    
    I was under the impression that Scotland was the only one that did not
    recognize the Queen as the Supreme Head of the Established Church.
    

    re .69 You are constitutionally correct,however the established church
    has so little influence now that it is practically irrelevant.
    
                                  Dennis

    
    Here I am back after a week's break and find my "Who's been to NI" note
    has degenerated into a sectarian battle and emerged into Church funding
    of schools.
    
    What would a physco-analyst make of this lot I ask?
    
    I wonder if notes in the USA notesfile always return to the
    genocide of the native American Indian or the beating of black people
    by Californian traffic cops.
    
    Back to life here in NI
    
    We had a white Easter as well as a white Christmas..............
    
    I schooled my two Showjumping horses.................
    
    I had relatives here from England............
    
    I visited Portrush on the North Coast on Saturday and went for a gallop
    on the beach with one of my horses........
    
    Hey life ain't so bad here...........
    
    
    Someone earlier asked who Daniel O'Donnell is well.......
    
    He is a Ballad/Country singer from the North West coast of Donegal from
    a beautiful little village called Kincasslagh where I used to deliver
    Sunday Newspapers to when I was a student..... Timeout for a true story
    here.
    
    After a few weeks of delivering newspapers to Donegal the previous
    driver of the truck visited my home and left a parcel to be delivered
    to a shop near Kincasslagh opposite the local Roman Catholic Cchurch.
    
    Remember this is 1972.
    
    I dutifully delivered same and went on my way.
    
    This delivery happened about once per month for about six months.
    
    At Christmas the owner of the shop came out to me and handed me a #20
    note ($50) in those days which was quite a bit of money. When asked
    what this was for he explained that it was for delivering the monthly
    parcels. I of course asked the question " By the way what is in these
    parcels?"
    
    'Ah' he  said  'Contraceptives and girlie magazines', definitely a jailable
    offence in Catholic Ireland ............
    
    Anyway back to Daniel,
                          he is single and I suppose not a bad looking guy
    but he projects himself as the original goody goody guy who, as they
    say over here, If he was Ice-cream  he would eat himself.
    
    He is very popular with middle aged women who seem to want to mother
    him and is particularily popular in Scotland where all his concerts are
    booked out months in advance. 
    
    Many local jokes are told about him like:
    
    If you were in a room with Ian Paisley,Gerry Adams and Daniel
    O'Donnell and had a gun with only two bullets in it. Who would you shoot?
    
    ANSWER: Daniel O'Donnell twice just to be sure....
    
    More from NI later
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth
    

    OR :
    
    How would you stop Daniel O'Donnel from drowning ?
    
    
    Take your foot off of his head.
    
    
    MR

    
    Gordon McKee (SQF)
    
    Scottish...(christened Protestant in Church of Scotland but do not
    		practise religion whatsoever)
    
    Up until I met my wife 3� years ago I travelled back and forth to
    both sides of the Irish border . I have many friends in both North
    and South and have always been made most welcome whenever I have
    visited Dublin,Lisburn,Belfast. I confess to not knowing many 
    Nationalists from NI but I only know catholics from the south.
	My own opinion is that the protestants in the north are 
    naturally very friendly but do carry a burden of bitterness towards
    the hard line nationalists. As for the Irish, I have NEVER come 
    across a friendlier nation of people and the weekends I have spent
    in Dublin are unforgetable (I had an eight o'clock flight one
    Sunday morning and I was still in the pub from the night before).
    The feeling I get from the Irish is that they couldn't care less
    about the North joining the South in fact it is a subject RARELY
    discussed. Even when my friends from Dublin and Belfast were over
    in Ayr, or when the Dublin crowd came up to EAST Belfast when I 
    was there, there was virtually no talk of the troubles. 
   	One problem I did have in Belfast was that I was warned not
    to wander off, the reason being I was a Scot with short cropped
    hair and could easily have been mistaken for a squaddie. This said
    though I never came across any trouble. If anyone plans on visiting
    Belfast then THE CROWN bar is a must see, I think it's the oldest
    pub in Britain (or something like that). Also there is hotel on the 
    outside of the city (can't remember the name but it is quite well
    known,probably as it has been bombed a few times) that has the best
    carvery I have ever been in.
    
    Gordon...
    
    (sorry about ratholing the note,but I did say at the time I should
    have created a new one)
                                        

    Gareth, reading your note I thought the contraceptives and girlie
    mags were for Daniel O'Donnell.  No couldn't be.  ;v)
    
    What type of showjumpers do you raise?

    Hi George,
              no, to the best of my knowledge the contraceptives were not
    specifically for the O'Donnell household but........who knows.
    
    The showjumpers are good Irish Thoroughbreds of course...... well
    nearly. My six year old is by a Stallion called Leap High (USA BRED),which 
    he does and who was a son of Nijinksi. 
    
    I found him last year in a field near Derry forgotten about and looking for
    a good home after selling my last showjumper by a Northern Dancer bred
    stallion. 
    
    Our other horse who is our fun horse is 11 this year and is 7/8
    thoroughbred and 1/8 Irish Draught and is by a Stallion called Lucky
    Bay.
    
    I personally prefer Irish Thoroughbreds. They learn quickly and
    are bold. What is more important they retain the knowledge not like
    some of the continental breeding which is in favour in the showjumping
    world at the moment. So a whole lot less schooling is needed for us
    amateurs.
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth
    

The Crown in Belfast is the only bar owned by the National Trust.
Unfortunately, members do not get discounts!

It is regarded as one of the finest, if not the finest, example of a Victorian
public house in the UK. No visit to Belfast would be complete without sampling
a pint or three of Guinness in one of its snugs. 

Anyone feel like offering me one next time I make it to Belfast?

Dave

    How do you know Daniel O'Donnell isn't circumcised........
    
    
    Because there's no end to the little prick...
    
    
    (Please George, don't "set hidden" this one as it's profanity in a good
    cause)
    
    Joe.

    
    
    Hi all,
    	  may  I ask what may be a controversial question but one which has 
    fascinated me since my first visit to Bedford Mass. back in 1979.
    
    On the freeway (I think) towards Mount Washington there is a road sign
    which points in one direction to Derry and to Londonderry in the
    opposite direction. I actually stopped and took a photo of this sign
    and I found it recently while moving house.
    
    Without re-opening the political debackle can someone tell what the
    originals are?
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

    Joe,
        I advise not to post any jokes regarding Daniel's father!
    
    TRUE  STORY
    
    A comedian told a joke recently on an Ulster Television chat show
    concerning Daniel's father (who is, unfortunatley, deceased).
    
    Daniel's family were somewhat upset and...............
    
    For this crime he was dismissed as the chatshow's warmup artist,
    
    So beware 
    
    Gareth

    re .76
      I think that the Philharmonic in Hope St, Liverpool has it beaten by
    a short head. (of Guinness  :-} )

    
    RE: .78 by BELFST::MCCOMB
    
    >On the freeway (I think) towards Mount Washington there is a road sign
    >which points in one direction to Derry and to Londonderry in the
    >opposite direction. I actually stopped and took a photo of this sign
    >and I found it recently while moving house.
    
    >Without re-opening the political debackle can someone tell what the
    >originals are?
    
    I've read something that explains this, but have completely forgotten
    the historical details.  Perhaps you could ask aboput this in Note 536
    "Information about Derry/Londonderry Area" in the MORTAL::NEW_HAMPSHIRE
    conference.
    

    
    Gareth.
    
    Interesting notes..Any info on horses runing on the flat racing....
    Need a few tips after fairyhouse this week......-) -).
    
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
    Derry is a serious good town to visit ....No tension compared to belfast...
    
    
    

    Gareth, 
    
    This should probably be in another note, but I couldn't find a
    horse note.  Many of my relatives raise Irish Thoroughbreds.
    Where exactly did the breed originate?  I.e., what horses went
    into making the Irish Thoroughbred?  They are a big horse.
    
    I ride Arabians. My sister has 3 of them - Deerfield, Chantilly,
    and Haley's Comet.
    
    /g

    
    
    George told me that he once tried to breed Irish Racehorses ........
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Then he found out they could do it themselves !!!    :-)          

    re. .83
    
    George,
           there isn't a specific breed as "Irish Thoroughbred" all
    Thoroughbred horses can be traced back to two Arab horses brought to
    England back a few hundred years ago.
    
    Weatherby's in London is the registration agents for all Thoroughbred
    horses and any horse which races "under rules" must be registered in
    their stud book.
    
    The success and the strong bone of the Irish Thoroughbred horse is
    credited to the limestone soil which of course contains lots of calcium
    and hence strong bones.
    
    But really a throroughbred is a thoroughbred is a thoroughbred no
    matter where they come from.
    
    There is an equitation note but it is like a "mothers union" with notes
    like.
    
    .0 " My horse has colic and I am very sad at present and have had to
    sleep in the stable every night for the last week
    	Mary"
    
    .1 " oh dear Mary my heart feels for you. My daisy had that last fall
    and we were so upset
    
    
    
    ETC
    EtC
    
    It needs someone like Mark to wake them up a bit.
    
    rgds
    Gareth
    
    

    Gareth,
    
    And you forgot to mention the gangsters who added in a bit of "Irish
    Draught" blood to strengthen up the bones.
    
    Most of the showjumping horses used in this country appear to have some
    "Irish Draught" blood in them anyway
    
    Mbr

    Martin,
           now don't you start letting the truth get the way of a good
    story.............
    
    Unfortunatley the Irish Draught blood is being replaced by Harovarian
    and Dutch Warm Blood at the moment. Have a look at the names of the
    horses that Eddie Macken is jumping at the moment.
    
    As long as we keep the English Blood out it will keep this conference
    at a manageable level!!
    
    I'll be in Dublin tomorrow at Social Welfare ( Network Problems)
    maybe see you
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth

    
    This particular note has been very educational indeed.
    Despite ongoing problems it seems to me* from this note* that the
    vast majority of residents in Northern Ireland do exist quite
    well together. I do not downplay any incidents from either
    extremist side ( a small minority, no?).
    
    My question is this and it might be naive and simplistic.
     If 98% of the population
    co-exist under British rule, would not the same be true under
    Irish rule?
    
    Mike
    

    My thanks to Gareth and Gerry for attempting to balance this quite
    lopsided notes file. I was born and reared in the Republic of Ireland
    and live and work there now. The absence of input to this notes file
    on most topics from people who LIVE in Ireland, Scotland or Wales 
    speakes volumes about it. Maybe its time for a Notes file for Celts who
    actually have to live every day in these countries. Personally I read
    this notes file to try to understand Americans.     Peter

    Peter,
          what you say is quite true and proves that to understand a
    culture you have to experience it.
    
    I live in the north and travel and work alot in the south and
    frequently I am amazed at the differences in values and reasoning which 
    is evident in our small country.
    
    Equally my first trip to the US was an eye opener for me in how the
    meaning of the English language changes across the pond.
    
    My first experience of this difference was when I said:
    
    "I got a static bang in the lift" which to anyone over here means :
    
    " I had an electrotstic shock while in the elevator"
    
    Whereas the person I said it to thought I had a sexual experience in
    the elevator.
    
    I also had the wrath of God poured upon me in the Equitation notesfile
    by referring to cowboy's  in a derogitory manner. Now we all know that
    a cowboy over here is another word for a gangster. Whereas in the US
    they are seen as hard working farm hands.
    
    So if we cannot understand each other byway of  the spoken word how are
    we supposed to understand our cultural differences?
    
    Rgds
    
    Gareth
      
    
     

    RE: .89
    
    I'd be interested to know how the conference is "lop-sided", and in
    which direction.
    
    Laurie.

	<<< Note 1359.89 by ESSB::PBUTLER >>>
    	>>Personally I read this notes file to try to understand Americans.
    
    
    	Me too, and I live next door!  ;^)
    
    	Pat (from the Great White North)