Conference tallis::celt

    
    More usenet --> celt new topic porting. Couldn't you have found an
    existing topic for this?  You've been told of the credibility of
    An Phoblacht. It would help people to unseen it, if you appended these
    reports to existing topics. 
    

     re .0
    
    If these reports are true, then I condemn the actions as vehemently as
    I do those of ALL the terrorist groups.
    
    John
    

    This is a known tactic by the IRA. They buy uniforms from army suplus
    and supply shops in England. They then set up a fake road block and
    terrorize the local inhabitants. The blame gets laid on the British
    Forces but they are totally innocent and were never even near the
    place. 
    
    It is also a known fact that the IRA have sympathisers within the RUC,
    so they can call on them when the IRA wish to do a house search. Again
    the results is that the British Forces get the blame.

>    This is a known tactic by the IRA. They buy uniforms from army suplus
>    and supply shops in England. They then set up a fake road block and
>    terrorize the local inhabitants. The blame gets laid on the British
>    Forces but they are totally innocent and were never even near the
>    place. 
SURE !

As well as that are British soldiers who bombs downtown shops in London,
just to put blame on IRA... In fact, if both side would stop bombing
themselves it would be peace at last !

One could take what Mr. Holohan report as a bunch of lies, but .-1 is even
worse !

mf

    
    yes a unbelievable assertion!. -) -)
    
    Mf..Its humor....sadly missing in here for a while.....
    
    rgs,
    
    Mick
    
    

    re. 0 
    It's actions like these that encourage people to join the IRA. The
    British forces don't seem to understand this.
    
    Thanks for posting this. Stories like these don't seem to make the
    headlines (or any other part of the paper) in Australia unlike IRA
    mortar attacks on Heathrow which topped the news three days in a row.
    
    
    re.<<< Note 1345.1 by NOVA::EASTLAND "I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR" >>>
>    An Phoblacht. It would help people to unseen it, if you appended these
    
    Why don't you want to read stuff like this. Does it spoil your illusion
    that there is only one party at fault here.
    
    
    	"Quarrels would not last long if the wrong was all on one side".
    						- Duc de la Rochefoucauld.
    
    

    
    Buzz off Tony. I don't think much of the National Enquirer either.
    You're pretty clueless as to sources.
    

                                 Dirty Tricks
         Ex-British Captain Offers Insider's Account of War in Ireland

It seemed only appropriate that author and former British Army Captain Fred
Holroyd reflected on the civil conflict in Northeast Ireland in an Irish pub.

"The one force Britain is frightened of is American public opinion," he said
before he stood up to speak inside Hennessey's in Morristown.

"If there is to be an end to the dirty tricks, murder and kidnappings which
British intelligence has sanctioned and, indeed, secretly carried out for
years... it may be when Irish-Americans, or all Americans for that matter, get
their government to pressure Britain to end it," Holroyd said.

Unlikely words, it seemed, for a 16-year-old veteran of the British Army and
someone who still talks of military honor. The 51-year-old Holroyd considers
himself "right of center" in the political arena, and by no means has taken up
the tenets of the Irish Republican Army.

Yet, it was his sense of honor that was bombarded, along with his conscience,
when he was stationed in Northeast Ireland in 1973. Holroyd was among the
first of a now-growing number of former British officers who have publicly
tried to pull back the veil on their government's "secret war" in that
strife-filled nation.

Holroyd, author of "War Without Honor," said he witnessed his nation's
proliferation of the Irish civil war with an ill-conceived notion that the
campaign waged by the "Republicans" could be countered with Britain's own
campaign of terror. It is not simply the acts of a few misguided officers, but
a deliberate, albeit confused, policy carried out by many of Britain's top
officials since the early 1970's, Holroyd insisted.

"The British government would have you believe they are an impartial body
standing between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, and keeping them
apart... But that's just not true," he said.

Holroyd talked of how the British used intelligence agencies once designed to
protect England from espionage, and sabotage - much as the American FBI - to
prop up a corrupt government in Ireland and act as a secret constabulary. The
tactics were the same that already had been tried and perfected in other,
private military enterprises in Asia.

"I found out that in fact everything was being targeted at the minority group
(northern Catholics) who were being harassed and prosecuted, and put in prison
and deliberately provoked into militant action - while the Protestants who
were doing exactly the same offenses, were being released, protected and in
some armed and supplied by elements of secret force within the British Army,"
said Holroyd.

He also said he observed clandestine excursions into the southern provinces,
where suspected militants were kidnapped and even murdered. As Holroyd tells
it, some in the south are equally as corrupt as the north.

Some would help British intelligence arrange for 'freezing' - a situation
where the local law enforcement would conveniently get lost while teams of
agents committed illegal acts ranging from assault to out-right assassination.

Even bombings, frequently blamed on the IRA and sometimes militant Protestant
groups, were conducted by British intelligence operatives, according to his
evidence.

"We had become terrorists fighting terrorists," he said.
"There is a fine line, I know, and people will talk about areas of gray in
counter-insurgency operations. But we crossed that line. We didn't even
consider that line," charged Holroyd, whose personal story only begins with
the disillusionment and tales of dirty tricks.

When he made the mistake of objecting to the tactics and complaining to his
superiors, Holroyd claims he was forced to resign from the military in 1977.
As he tells it, what followed was a 20-year campaign by the military to
discredit him. In 1982, he began to take his story outside the military system
to which he had been so loyal, and by 1989 he had published his book.

Other former army officers who witnessed similar events in Ireland have since
come forward, but Holroyd contends the full extent of the British secret war
has gone unreported.

"I see myself as creating a key hole to it all," he said, noting he will be
conducting other lectures, including New Brunswick.

"I'm just one candle flickering in the night. But there are other cases
elsewhere and, who knows, one day there may be enough of us to start a bonfire
to illuminate the whole thing."

 re. .7

 National Enquirer, haven't heard of it. Is that 
 anything like a British government press release
 regarding events in the occupied 6 counties?

                      Mark

    re .8 "The one force Britain is scared of is American opinion"
    
    ...where do they dig these dumbos up ?    Hands up all Brits who can't
    sleep at night because of being badly of by the Shermans ?
    
    ( I guess that the US population is even more worried about Brit
    opinion, or Zimbabwean opinion, or Outer Mongolian opinion)
    
    Sheesh !
    
    John
    

    re .8 and .10
    
    There is a "thought" missing in both,; a word missing in .10 and no
    valid thoughts in .8
    
    John

    re.      <<< Note 1345.7 by NOVA::EASTLAND "I'm the NEA, NEH, NPR" >>>
    
>    Buzz off Tony. 
    I've as much right to be here as anyone else.
    
>    You're pretty clueless as to sources.
    
    Not true. I've read An Phoblacht quite a number of times. I've also
    read a lot of the English "newspapers". Neither side prints a 100%
    accurate picture of what's going on but by reading both versions one
    can generally get a good idea of the truth.
    
    Tony.

    
    Ok, well then ask someone here who knows its reputation, which you
    clearly have no inkling of.
    

 re. .13
 I'll be glad to answer that.  AP/RN is excellent, 
 factual journalism.  When the British government stands
 up and lies to the world about it's contacts with
 Sinn Fein, AP/RN was busy telling the truth.  History
 has proved who the liars are, and they are the folks
 who invented the word, the British establishment.

                 Mark

    
    Well of course it's excellent for you, just like Nicaline news network
    was excellent for the Sandie supporters.
    

Re: .10

>    re .8 "The one force Britain is scared of is American opinion"
>    
>    ...where do they dig these dumbos up ?    Hands up all Brits who can't
> >   sleep at night because of being badly of by the Shermans ?

I doubt that the British people are remotely concerned about American
public opinion.

But I bet the British Govt. are. If they were unconcerned by American Public
opinion then explain why they made all the fuss over Gerry Adams getting
his visa?  

Much of the influence that the British Govt. has in Europe is  due to them
being perceived as having a special channel to the American Govt. If the
British Govt. was seen to publically fall out with the Americans their 
influence in Europe would decline significantly. 

There is also the so called "special relationship". Britain has had to
draw heavily on American goodwill twice this century. Personally I think
this is fantasy [the special relationship] but it is very difficult for the 
British Govt. to claim they have a special relationship and to then be seen 
to publically fall out with Americans. 

Btw: someone has just written a book proclaiming the "special relationship" 
to be dead. So perhaps that aspect will decline.

M  

    
>Much of the influence that the British Govt. has in Europe is  due to them
>being perceived as having a special channel to the American Govt. If the
>British Govt. was seen to publically fall out with the Americans their 
>influence in Europe would decline significantly. 

    Before I call this way off mark, I'd like to know what your source is.
    Or did you make it up yourself. 

It's commonly mentioned in TV and Newspaper articles. 

You often hear the other Countries complain of an "Anglo-Saxon" point of
view as contrasted to the remainder who are said to represent a
"European" point of view. In this context "Anglo-Saxon" is code for the
American/British block.

This is a more negative example than I had hoped to quote because it shows
that being seen as allied with the Americans has its downside as well.

There is a current situation where you may see things discussed in this
context. Again a "negative" example. The EU has a "TV Without Frontiers
Directive". In spite of it's name this directive includes a requirement
that 50% of all material broadcast in Europe must be produced in Europe.

Ted Turner with his CNN-I channel [this has European material but not 50%]
and TNT/Cartoon Channel [virtually 100% American] has caused quite a storm.
Both channels are illegal under the TVWF Directive, however Britain is
licensing them and they continue to Broadcast. Thus Britain is seen
to ally with America. In some of the Interviews with Euro MP's you
will see/hear how Britain is seen as siding with American interests
vs European Interests. This is very current news, there are bound
to be some items in papers.

A more "positive" instance of the relationship comes out during
trade talks. When Europe thinks America is pushing too hard they
often turn to Britain to present the European point of view and
to negotiate a more favourable settlement.

I'll try to find a more explicit example.

Mark

    
    Fine, we'll wait for a source then..
    

from An Phoblacht/Republican News
March 30, 1994


Tyrone harassment condemned

BY LIAM O COILEAIN

TYRONE NATIONALISTS travelled to Dublin on Wednesday, 30 March, to speak out
against a concerted and brutal campaign of crown forces harassment in
Coalisland and Omagh.

The press conference, hosted by the Irish National Congress, heard how in
recent weeks the crown forces have launched unprovoked attacks on nationalists
with plastic bullets and live rounds, the culmination of a long period of
harassment and intimidation in these predominantly nationalist areas. Local
people have picketed the RUC barracks in Omagh once and the Coalisland
barracks on three occasions in protest.

Coalisland Sinn Fein Councillor Brendan Doris told how three months ago, he
intervened when he saw an RUC officer harassing a youth on the street. The
youth was roughly arrested. The officer told Doris the incident was none of
his business and refused to answer any queries. Three days later, Doris was
arrested and charged with two assaults, disorderly behaviour and obstruction,
''all for asking why they were arresting this young fellow''.

He told how, on 5 March, the RUC had indiscriminately opened fire with plastic
bullets on people returning home from pubs in Coalisland, also firing live
ammunition in the air. Five people were injured. On Friday, 11 March, in
Omagh, the RUC attacked young people returning home from a dance with plastic
bullets and batons. Serious injuries were caused and some of those arrested
were denied medical attention until the following morning, despite broken
limbs. Sixteen people were subsequently charged with riotous behaviour.
Human rights campaigner Father Joe McVeigh said that the upsurge in harassment
was reminiscent of the situation before the clashes with paratroopers a couple
of years ago. He felt that the British were giving the message to young people
that if the Downing Street Declaration wasn't accepted, they could expect more
harassment. He criticised the SDLP in the area for not supporting the people
and slated the Dublin government for its ''disgraceful attitude towards the
oppression of northern nationalists''. He said that if, as Albert Reynolds
said recently, he did not expect to see a united Ireland in his lifetime,
''then what is he going to do about the plight of nationalists who are living
with this situation during his lifetime?''

Una McGrath told how she had been injured on the night of 5 March in
Coalisland. British soldiers were spread out across the road and as she
reached them, one pushed her to the ground, chafing her hands. The soldiers
and RUC then opened fire with plastic bullets. One passed through her son's
jacket pocket, grazing his hip, while a second grazed her knee. Two days later
the RUC arrived at her home and arrested her. She was charged with riot,
assault, disorderly behaviour and criminal damage. She spoke of the constant
harassment of young men in particular in the Clonoe/Coalisland area: ''They
cannot even go out to a football match or for a game of snooker or even to go
to work without being stopped and harassed''.

Patrick John O'Neill was a victim of the same unprovoked attack. He was struck
twice by plastic bullets, fired at point-blank range, one grazing the side of
his face, the other hitting him in the foot, breaking three bones. ''They just
seemed to go mad, he said. ''They were also firing their revolvers in the air
like fireworks.''

INC national chairperson Bobby Ballagh said that they would be preparing a
statement for Dublin Foreign Minister Dick Spring demanding that he take
action on this issue through the channels available to him.
------

    RE                 <<< Note 1345.20 by KOALA::HOLOHAN >>>
    >                    -< More British forces attacks >-
    
    This must all be lies. We've already heard from people who actually
    *live* in N.I. that they have never experienced anything like this.
    

    re 20
    
     Just another one to add to the BS list.
    
    
    SCott

    Has anybody seen an article that would confirm .20 from any
    non-Republican source. Somehow I think that a story of this magnitude would
    have gotten more coverage. The Irish Emigrant which is generally
    meticulous about reporting incidents like this from the North has not
    mentioned it once. And surely Mark could pull a Reuters or other report
    off the Usenet to support it.
    
    Joe.

    re .23
    
    Mark H.  Forgot to mention that Rupert The Bear was wearing Checked
    trousers and watching skies for flying cows at the time of the report. 
    Otherwise all is true.
    
    Oh nearly forgot.  Mark H, leaves a trail of bread crumbs on his way to
    work so that he can find his way home at night. :*)
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

    I also live in Northern Ireland and have done so all of my life(37
    years). I have just recently discovered this conference and have been
    reading it with interest (and some amusement).
    
    I am a Catholic. As other noters from N.Ireland, I have no problems
    living and working with my neighbours (whatever their religion). I want
    to see an end to the violence and to see my children grow up in a safe,
    happy and healthy environment. The IRA are not fighting for me.
    
    My own experience of life in Northern Ireland is that I nor any member
    of my family have ever been involved in any 'troubles' related incident
    however I have experienced minor harrasment by security force personnel
    but I would add that such incidents were and are rare.
    
    I would also add that in my opinion, the fact that Mark H's statements
    in this note have been totally dismissed by some noters is unfair. I
    know that the incident concerning the lady stopped in the
    Crossmaglen/Forkhill area at the checkpoint actually happened as it was
    related to me by friends living in the area.
    Secondly, incidents such as the one described in the Coalisland area
    have been well documented in the local press with, on several
    occasions, instances of soldiers being found guilty of assault
    in similar incidents in Coalisland.
    
    I guess my reason for replying to this note is to point out that there
    are examples of injustices on all sides. I am pointing the finger at
    no-one as I'm not sure how I would react if I or my family were to
    suffer a major injustice from any quarter.   
    
    Tom .

from An Phoblacht/Repubican News
April 9, 1994


Castlewellan man badly beaten by RUC

A 33-YEAR-OLD Castlewellan man was badly beaten by the RUC as he made his way
home in the early hours of Tuesday morning, 5 April, several hundred yards
from his home. This is the latest in a litany of abuse meted out to the man in
the past several months. On this occasion, the RUC had singled out the man
without even stopping to ask for his personal details.

In an interview with AP/RN on Wednesday 6 April, the assaulted man, John Rice,
told how he was walking home when the RUC ''came from nowhere. They savagely
kicked and punched me to the ground. They shouted sectarian taunts at me as I
lay on the ground.''

Rice suffered severe head wounds and damage to his ribs and back in the
ten-minute attack which left him semi-conscious.

After the initial attack, the RUC gang bundled Rice into the back of their
patrol car where they continued to beat him. He was then driven to Newcastle
RUC Barracks before being transferred to Downpatrick Barracks. While there, he
was denied access to his own doctor and legal advice. Six hours elapsed before
he was seen by an RUC doctor while it was eight hours before he was allowed to
phone his solicitor.

Rice was never formally arrested, but while being held at the barracks the RUC
tried to take advantage of his distressed state by ''trying to fix me up with
an attempted burglary. I was conscious enough to realise what was happening
and refused to answer any questions. I was eventually released on Tuesday
morning only after the intervention of my lawyer.''

This is the just the latest incident in a long line of crown forces attacks on
Rice. On the 18 November 1993, he was stopped at an RIR checkpoint where he
was questioned and harassed by them for several minutes when an RUC patrol
arrived on the scene. During a conversation with one of the RUC officers, Rice
was threatened. The RUC officer said Rice would be 'set up' for loyalist
killers.

Rice has since seen his solicitor with a view to prosecuting the RUC.

    Mark H.
    
    Surely this was caught on video.  Or does that only happen in USA ? 
    Land of the Free Home of the Brave (like you Mark) ;*)

 re. .27

  Nope, the RUC have banned the video-taping of their beatings, er
  I mean interviews.  They say it might cause bad publicity.

                         Mark

    Yeah right...
    
    Bombing innocent civilians, sectarian and revenge murders are also
    "banned", but it doesn't seem to stop people doing it.
    
    Laurie.

from AN PHOBLACHY/REPUBLICAN NEWS (2)
Jan 5, 1995


British army officers appeal for convicted Para
BY LAURA FRIEL

THE ATTITUDE of the British army to the murder of unarmed Irish civilians was
again exposed with a pre-Christmas appeal by former senior British army chiefs
for the release of convicted murderer Lee Clegg.

Clegg, a private in the Parachute Regiment, shot dead 18-year-old Karen Reilly
in September 1990. The paratrooper was part of a joint British army/RUC patrol
which fired on a vehicle carrying three teenager joyriders along West Belfast's
Glen Road.

The driver, 17-year-old Martin Peake was also shot dead by the patrol and a
second passenger, 16-year-old Markievicz Gorman, was seriously injured.
Just eighteen months after Clegg was given a life sentence for murder, senior
British army officers called on the British government to grant the paratrooper
leave to spend Christmas with his family. Involved in the appeal was Major
General James Majury (retired), Colonel Peter Field, former commander of 1st
battalion Paratroop Regiment and Lieutenant General, Sir Napier Crookenden, who
commanded 9 Para immediately after D Day and retired as commander-in-chief of
the British army's Western Command.

Lt-Gen Crookenden described Clegg as ''a splendid young man''. He continued: ''I

think the very lest the authorities should do is give him parole for

Interviewed shortly after the shooting, the lone survivor Markievicz Gorman said

that the British soldiers kicked and punched her as she was dragged seriously
wounded from the vehicle. She also claimed that Karen Reilly was assaulted by
soldiers as she lay dying.

After the shooting, a mock up of the car in which the two teenagers were killed
carrying the slogan 'Vauxhall Astra, Built by robots, Driven by joyriders,
Stopped A COY'' was photographed in the Paras' officers mess in Holywood, County

Down.

Private Barry Aindow, who was convicted with Clegg for his part in an attempted
cover-up plot, was released in August last year, within a year of his
conviction. An appeal by Clegg failed last year but the case has since been
considered by the British Law Lords, whose judgement is expected early this
year.

There have been over 150 killings by the British army in disputed circumstances
yet apart from Clegg there has only been one other conviction of a British
soldier for murder while on duty in the North of Ireland. Private Ian Thain was
convicted in 1984 and give a life sentence for shooting dead a man in West
Belfast. Thain was released after two and a half years and immediately
reinstated into the British army.

    I heard on the news this morning that Clegg has lost his appeal and he
    claims he is being made a scapegoat.

    The judge at the time ruled that the first 3 shots Clegg fired were
    legitimate, the third was not.
    
    When you consider that he could have been firing at a rate of about 1
    every 3 or 4 seconds it appears to be a very silly decision.
    
    Prisoned for doing his job, according to the yellow card rules, he
    thought that his collegues were in jepody from a speeding car aimed at
    the group. Not allowed home for Christmas when convicted murderers who
    plant bombs to kill innocent Men, Women and small children are.
    
    I hope this gets taken all the way to European Court of Human rights.

 re. .32

 Sure, that "innocent" murdering British soldier must have felt
 awfully bad about having kicked and punched the lone survivor
 from the car.  I bet he had a great time assaulting Karen Reilly
 as she lay dying.  

 Simon, at least you are true to form, defending the murder when
 it's committed by British soldiers.

                       Mark

   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
   JANUARY 16, 1995

        BRITISH BRUTALIZE NATIONALISTS WHILE PLACATING LOYALISTS

Further indications that Britain has no intention of pursuing a peaceful
 solution to the Anglo-Irish conflict are the reinforced fortification of
 another of their military bases in South Armagh and the savage raid by
 massive military forces on the home of Hugh O'Donnell in Coalisland, Co.
 Tyrone. The Anglo-American media highlights the cosmetic changes such as
the  wearing of berets rather than helmets, the dispensing with flak jackets
and  the opening of an occasional border road that should never have been
closed  in the first place.  Yet there is little publicity about the brutal
behavior  by  the military and the sectarian police in raiding the homes of
 nationalists.

The threat by Unionist MP, David Trimble that it would be "impossible for us
to sustain support for the government" if the minimal concessions of cross
border institutions became part of a settlement is a major obstacle to
peace.  Those concessions include only innocuous areas like tourism and
 fisheries without any mention of the crucial policing, justice andemployment
areas where many of the causes of violence originate.  One of the most
important rights of all, that of national self-determination is not even on
the agenda.


Time and time again throughout history the British have played the "Orange
 card" to avoid giving justice to Ireland. This is all the more reason why
 there cannot be any long term solution while Britain is involved in Irish
 affairs. With a more pro-Unionist government in Dublin the British are
 further encouraged to hold on to the status quo.

In so doing they know that they are creating an untenable position for Gerry
Adams with the IRA.  Well may Republicans ask, "Why did we agree to a
 ceasefire only to have the British terrorize our people without opposition?"
A  split in the nationalists ranks is exactly what the British want,
"divide and conquer."   Surely the United States has an interest in
 preventing that.

In the meantime the obstacle they create by demanding the "decommissioning
 of arms" by the IRA is just another ploy to endanger the peace process.  By
 pretending to be impartial, the demand that the loyalists disarm also
should  fool no one.  The loyalists can get their weapons back next day
through British intelligence where they got the ones they now possess.

The British want peace only on their terms - unconditional surrender from
 the IRA and a military victory for the status quo. This they shall not get
 even it means more bloodshed because the causes of violence must be
 addressed.

Where there is injustice there cannot be peace.  Over 800 years of brutal
 occupation should have taught everyone that the British presence and
justice are incompatible elements for peace in Ireland.

Daniel P. O'Kennedy, National Vice President and Press Officer

    nbkjfdvkj

>BRITISH BRUTALIZE NATIONALISTS WHILE PLACATING LOYALISTS

will you stop using such bloody sensationalist titles please?  Perhaps
people would take you more seriously.  Then again, probably not.

Chris.

    re.36
    Why take him seriously? He's an American who hates Brits. Presumably he
    also hates Irish Brits, many of whom are Catholic. So unless you are a
    Republican he hates all of us. Right Holohan?
    
    I have not read much about this case, but it does seem that if someone
    steals a car and tries to break through an army roadblock in NI, then
    you have to accept the consequences of doing so. Whether or not
    shooting the occupants is justified or not was down to the Judge I
    guess and he found the soldier guilty. I would guess that their
    commanders have told them what to do under these circumstances and so
    once again, the truly guilty get off with it!
    
    

    I don't know what anyone else thinks but the notes of a _certain
    person_ only serve to impart a nice polish to my "next unseen" key.
    
    If you want to write about Irish politics, write in Irish !
    
    Mi wylaf dros Iwerddon...
    
    Pob hwyl,
    
    Dave
    

>will you stop using such bloody sensationalist titles please? 

 No.  I won't go and change the title or articles or reports because
 they offend your British sensibilities.

 
>He's an American who hates Brits.

 Hardly.  I have plenty of family members who are British citizens.

> Presumably he
> also hates Irish Brits, many of whom are Catholic.

 I think the only thing I truly hate is someone who turns a blind
 eye to injustice.

> If you want to write about Irish politics, write in Irish !

 Most of the folks in here don't read/speak Irish, and my Irish
 is pretty poor.
    
> Mi wylaf dros Iwerddon...    
> Pob hwyl,

  B\fhearr liom Gaeilge.

        

Eh?  What's `British Sensibilities' supposed to be, then?  Er, and
talking of turning a blind eye, you always did seem to be a bit
unsympathetic when the aggressors were of the Republican variety...

Chris.

    re � talking of turning a blind eye
    
    And when Noraid send a few dollers to the IRA to buy some semtex.

    I agree with most of what Holohan says. Its only the hysterical
    one-sided tone which gets on my nerves. I can't believe that there are
    no atrocities commited by the British army and RUC. And I often wonder
    what the Brits are doing in NI. I still believe the British presence is
    intended to protect and prevent violence between Republicans and 
    Unionists (who have been in Ireland for generations). In my opionion the
    real problem is between the Unionist and Nationalist people. Not
    between the British and Republican sympathisers. And certainly not
    between the British and Americans.
    
    Do you, Holohan, think that the Unionists are part of the British "invasion
    force"? And, when you (or your articles) talk about the removal of the
    Brits, do you also mean the Unionists who live there?
    
    Finally, I have sympathy for catholics and protestants killed in the
    troubles. Do you, Holohan, have any sympathy for innocent English
    people (who know and understand nothing about the troubles) who have
    been killed by Bombs for which the IRA have taken responsibility.
    
    I suppose a serious reply is out of the question!
    
    rgds
    Mark                                                 
    

re. .42

  I believe that the British government and British army are the 
  problem in north east Ireland.
  Have you read any of the Amnesty International reports on the
  human rights violations in north east Ireland?  I can provide you
  with copies if you are interested.  They painted a picture of
  collusion, and injustice perpetrated by the Loyalists and the
  British "security forces".
  Has that changed recently?  Maybe to some degree. We'll find
  out with the next round of human rights reports.

  I do not think of the Unionist as some part of "British invasion force".
  I think that they are Irish just like all the people who live in
  Ireland.  I can not forsee any solution that would have the people
  who consider themselves Unionist, removed.  The removal I talk
  about is the removal of the British army.  The gun, especially a
  British one, has no place in Irish politics.

  I have sympathy for anyone killed during this or any war.  I have
  lost a member of my family to violence, and know the pain a family
  feels when they have a loved one murdered.

                             Mark
  

>The gun, especially a British one, has no place in Irish politics.

why distinguish between who's wielding the weapon?  As far as I'm
concerned, violence has no place in Irish politics regardless of who's
the aggressor.

Chris.

    The gun would appear to have a prominent place in American politics:
    
    Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Kennedy, Brady(but the target was Reagan).
    
    The right to bear arms.
    
    22,000 killed each year through hand-guns alone.
    
    The highest rate of incarceration amongst the Western industrialized
    countries, and one of the few remaining with the death penalty.
    
    With Noraid and the aforementioned credentials, it's no wonder the
    "Troubles" have continued for so long.
    

    Hey Pat, you forgot Bush and Clinton. The Clinton attacks win
    the "most ingenious awards" all the way from assault rifles on
    Pennsylvania Avenue to small airplanes in the Magnolia tree.
    (Look at the back of a $20 bill - that tree on the left is now
    missing a few limbs - what would the p.c. term be? limbly-challenged)
    
    Now we have the "Rhino" bullet - for those "most special"
    assinations - especially designed for maximum flesh damage.
    Whatever it takes...  Unfortunately (depends how you look at
    it), the death penalty doesn't seem to be much of a deterrant
    to preventing murders.
    
    I don't think Noraid alone shoulders the responsbility
    for the "Troubles". As the old Snake would say - they are
    a symptom not a cause. Every party (Stormont, Westminster,
    Dublin, Unionist & Nationalist) has played a key role in
    the "Troubles".
    
      /
    Slan,
    George 

from The Irish People
'the weekly voice of Irish Republicanism in America'
Feb. 1, 1995



                           Paras beat up Beechmount man

THE BRITISH ARMY'S PROPAGANDA that they are ''off the streets'' was exposed as
a sham after Beechmount man David Burns who is in his late 50s, was battered
to the ground by British soldiers on Monday, 23 January.

As Burns made his way home, around 10.30pm, he was suddenly confronted by
heavily-armed British soldiers. After asking him his name and address one of
the British soldiers of the Parachute Regiment, hit him in the face with the
butt of an automatic rifle. Falling to the roadside and bleeding heavily Burns
cried out for help. With his neighbours coming out to give assistance the
British soldiers ran off. Burns was taken to the Royal Victoria Hospital where
he required six stitches in a facial wounds.

This came in a week when Sinn Fein's Peace Action Monitor (PAM) group has
released details of several attacks against the republican and nationalist
community documented by its coordinators.

In worrying developments reports continue to come in about abuses by crown
forces throughout the Six Counties. In one incident on the Ballygawley Road
estate in Dungannon the British army and RUC searched over 200 gardens, while
simultaneously raiding houses. Reports from South Armagh are highlighting what
locals describe as ''the highest British military presence in the area in 20
years''.

''The true face of British behaviour in the Six Counties'' was Belfast Sinn
Fein Councillor Fra McCann description of actions of British minister Malcolm
Moss and his RUC 'minders' who drove through a picket on Wednesday morning, 25
January, in West Belfast in an armoured car injuring a Sinn Fein councillor.
Councillor Fra McCann was speaking after the RUC armoured vehicle deliberately
swerved into a group of Sinn Fein protestors. The wheel of the car ran over
the foot of Councillor Marie Moore who had to be taken to the Royal Victoria
Hospital for emergency treatment.

The incident occurred during a visit by the British minister to the Dunlewey
Education Centre on the Falls Road.

	Two Scots Guards were found guilty last week of murdering an 18
	year old man in Belfast. This young man was returning home in 
	daylight after visiting his sister when he was stopped by an army
	patrol. He was searched and he answered questions for six minutes
	before pulling the ear piece from the ear of one of the soldiers. 
	and running away. The soldiers gave chase and both soldiers shot at
	him. The boy was hit by two bullets which entered his back and 
	exited through his stomach. He died a few minutes later.

	The judge in the case postponed judgement until after Private 
	Clegg's appeal to the House of Lords.

	There are a few significant differences between this case and the
	Clegg case :-

	This shooting happened in broad daylight.
	The victim had already been searched and questioned.
	The soldiers were not in any danger.

	In the Clegg case he fired at a moving car which had failed to stop
	at an army checkpoint.
	It was dark and Pte Clegg allegedly perceived a threat (even 
	although the fatal shot was fired after the car had passed and he
	never claimed at his trial or his appeals that he suspected that
	the inhabitants of the car were terrorists.)
	During the 25 years of the conflict in NI there have been no cases
	of terrorists joy-riding in Belfast.

Eddie said:
>	In the Clegg case he fired at a moving car which had failed to stop
>	at an army checkpoint.

Actually, the only evidence that there was a checkpoint there comes from
the unsupported word of convicted perjurers. The RUC officer said that
there *had* been a checkpoint there earlier, but that it had been lifted
before the joyriders arrived, and his evidence was supported by the
testimony of the civilian witness who had driven past the entire patrol
without realising they were there, and only discovered he had done so
when he started to make a 3-point turn and was stopped by soldiers coming 
out of the bushes to him.

     Re -.1
    
    B Dalton is correct.
    
    I did not mean to imply less blame on Clegg.
    

selections from The Irish People
"the voice of Irish Republicanism in America"
Feb. 15, 1995


1. RUC go berserk in Cookstown

RUC Go Berserk in Cookstown

For members of the nationalist community, crown forces abuses, harassment
and arrests continue daily. Incidents of harassment  reported this week range
from the abuse of a Fermanagh Catholic priest and civil rights activist by
the RUC to the firing of lethal plastic bullets by that force at a group of
young people going to a dance in County Tyrone.

Fr. Joe McVeigh has documented a number of occasions recently when his car
has been stopped by the RUC at checkpoints and by the roadside said he has
been illegally questioned by the RUC. Over a four-week period he has been
questioned ten times, frequently at night.

Joe McVeigh said that he was not stopped at all in October or December,
and only once in November, yet during January he was stopped ten times by RUC
patrols in the Beleek area alone. The small village of Belleek is predominantly
nationalist, and local people have confirmed to PAM (Peace Action Monitor)
a high level of patrolling by the RUC.

McVeigh, who has publicly stated that he stopped making 'official' complaints
two years ago because he was ''getting nowhere'' remarked: ''There is only
one reason for all this. It's because of I have always been critical of this
discredited force.''

The Cookstown group of PAM has recorded what is probably one of the most
vicious attacks carried out by the RUC in recent times. Lethal plastic bullets
were fired at young people going to a Saturday evening dance at the Glenavon
Hotel, on 4 February.  Trouble began as RUC DMSU units, who had been harassing
people outside the hotel, moved into the grounds and began to push people
around the carpark. Without warning a number of RUC members loaded plastic 
bullet guns and opened fire, causing fear and panic as people scrambled to
get into the hotel for cover.

Several witnesses to the unprovoked RUC onslaught told how they watched
as units from the British army arrived and looked on as RUC officers reloaded
and opened fire again. Others reported how on hearing of the shooting at the
Glenavon Hotel RUC patrols elsewhere in the town appeared to go beserk, 
targeting nationalists for abuse.

In one incident four young men were stopped, assaulted, arrested and taken 
To the RUC barracks where they were held for several hours. The seriousness
of some of their injuries required emergency treatment in the nearby South
Tyrone hospital.

One young nationalist on being released from hospital described the RUC's
actions as ''typical'', and said the RUC seemed to regard nationalists in 
Cookstown and nearby Stewartstown as being ''in open season every weekend''.

RUC patrols based in Dungannon have been identified this week by PAM as
being involved in sinister approaches to young car drivers. On stopping them
the RUC demanded that comprehensive insurance documents be produced in the RUC
barracks.

On arrival the individuals, who arrived separately, were ordered into a
room where they were isolated. They were then physically and verbally abused.

In the case of one young man from Cabragh, outside Dungannon, who had been 
stopped four times in five days as he drove to work, he was forced to hold
his arms in the air while in the barracks. During this he was threatened that
if he did not tell the RUC who was erecting national flags in the surrounding
countryside ''life would get even more difficult.''

Sinn Fein Councillor Mary Nelis has again voiced her concern about 
Individuals from a supposed ''research group'' in the Derry City area 
who have been calling at  doors asking various questions about the RUC:
apparently for ''market research''.  Armed with a questionaire the callers 
sought residents opinions on the RUC.

With Derry PAM having had two of its monitors arrested by the RUC in recent 
months it appears obvious that that force is now taking its propaganda 
offensive into deeper waters.

Nellis told PAM that following these visits numerous complaints have been 
received at Sinn Fein offices and consequently she has advised anyone, 
similarily approached, not to cooperate with them as their true identity 
and purpose has yet to be established. She concluded: ''The RUC represent 
all that is corrupt and unjust in this society and should be disbanded 
immediately.''

    
    
    
    re last
    
    "British fans in uniform == British police"
    
     Please rephrase, the so-called fans at last nights game were there to
    "represent" and support ENGLAND. Do not tar the supporters of the other
     "British" teams with the same brush. Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland 
     football supporters do not go on the rampage whenever they play
     abroad.
    
      Danny.

  Danny,
   Teams from Wales, I call Welsh.
   Teams from Scotland, I call Scotch.
   Teams from north east Ireland, I call Irish.

   Those who support the old British empire and the evil it
   stands for, I call British.

                            Mark

re .52,

not true, I'm afraid.  Ever been on the receiving end of Scotland away fans
in England?  It's not a pleasant experience.  And while we're on about tarring
people with the same brush... oh, what's the point?

Chris.

    What I drink from a whisky glass, I call Scotch. People from Scotland I
    call Scottish.
    
    And what drink in a whiskey glass I call Old Bushmills.
    
    Dave

    Re .53
    

	After the English hooligans disgraced their country in Dublin this
	week John Major sent a letter of apology to the Irish prime 
	minister. In the letter he apologised for the behaviour of the 
	"British" fans.  Tony Blair, (the leader of the Labour party -
	for those Labour voters who don't know), also refered to these
	hooligans as "British" fans, in Parliament.

	Alex Salmond (the leader of the Scottish National Party) wrote a
        letter to each of these two politicians explaining that these fans
        were "English" and had nothing to do with Scotland or Wales.
    

    I think you'll find that 99.999% of the English don't think of them as
    representative of England either.
    
    Dave
    

re.52:

Danny, I see you are in Scotland. So, can we have our posts back please?

Dave.

    
    
    re .54
    
        Scotland supporters have a very good reputation worldwide for their
     behaviour over the past 15 - 20 years. Sure, there was the occassional
     aggro during England-Scotland games at Wembley but you can hardly
     compare that with the stuff that goes on nowadays whenever England
     travel abroad. Scotland supporters have never been involved in running
     street battles and rioting at cities around Europe. There has been
     sporadic violence when certain club sides have played in England,
     thats why most will not accept friendly matches in England any more,
     at least they are trying to eradicate the problem.
    
      The more England "fans" cause trouble, the better behaved Scotland
     fans become. They love being seen as "well-behaved courtious (sp)
     supporters". Indeed, if a particular fan started to cause trouble away
     from home, he would probably get a good kicking from his fellow
     supporters for bringing their good image into disrepute.
    
    
   re last
    
     Don't know where to find those goal-posts now, they've probably been
     turned into coffee-tables or something by now. -)
    
    Danny.

The home secretary is to review the case of Private Lee Clegg in June of
this year. This means that he could be released from jail despite the 
fact that 9 high court judges have found him guilty.

This emphasises the point that in Britain a person is innocent until
proven Irish and in NI he is guilty of murder until proven to be a
British soldier.

The BBC are very careful how they refer to Lee Clegg:- In last night's
6 O'Clock news he was described as "Private Lee Clegg, who shot
dead 18 year old, Karen Reilly", instead of, "Convicted murderer Private
Lee Clegg". There is a subtle difference here and I am sure this subtlety
is not lost on the BBC News producers.

Ed.

 re. .60

  Sadly, this is no different than what Amnesty International,
  and Helsinki Watch have been telling the world for years.

                   Mark

	Convicted murderer and british soldier, Private Lee Clegg was 
	released from jail this morning after a licence was signed by the
	Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

	Clegg, a private in the parachute reginemt, was found guilty of
	murdering 18-year-old Karen Reilly in September 1990. The paratrooper
	was part of a joint British army/RUC patrol which fired on a vehicle
	carrying three teenage joyriders along West Belfast's Glen Road.

	Clegg was not only found guilty in his original trial but also by
	an appeal court and The House of Lords. It is alleged that he was
	kept on full British Army pay while serving four years of a life 
	sentence.
    

It has also been proven that he didn't fire the shot
that killed Karen.

    re .63
    I've never heard that before. Could you give us more info?

    .63
    
    ....Where did you get that info??...Didn't hear/read about that.
    
    

    RE .63 Not true.
    
    There have been claims by Clegg's supporters that a bullet fired from
    that distance which travelled through the back seat of the car would
    have fragmented before impact and that the one which killed Karen
    hadn't. These details were discussed and examined during his three
    trials and he was still found guilty. It is the job of the courts to
    listen to and assimilate all the evidence put before them and we,
    unfortunately will never get to hear all of the evidence. The courts
    decided that the first three shots fired by Clegg were "legal" but the
    fourth (and fatal) shot was not.
    
    Assuming that you agree that all three courts' decision that Clegg was
    guilty of murder then why should he be set free after only four years ?
    
    How long would he have got if he had murdered an 18 year old joy-rider on
    the streets of England ?
    
    If the answer to the last question is "more than four years" then why
    is there a difference ?
    
    Murder is murder. He was not found guilty of "illegal killing" or
    "manslaughter". It was murder.

re .63,

I also heard that story, after they'd checked where the spent cartridges
landed it was claimed that it would have been impossible for him to have
fired the fatal shot.  This was never used as evidence, for some reason.

As far as the rights/wrongs as regards his release, I can see certain
parallels with the recent release of Donna Maguire (?) after serving
6 years in gaol.

Chris.

re: .67

I think the parallels are slight

Maguire was tried and aquitted about four times prior to the
latest verdict. And that verdict is being appealed. There is
very little hard evidence against her (other than that she kept bad company).

With Clegg, the only point of dispute is whether it was his
bullet that killed the girl. If it wasn't his bullet, then it
wasn't thru lack of trying. The concept of "Joint venture" ought
to apply as well.

M

    I think the only option left open to the Brit government now is to 
    release all prisoners otherwise peace will surely be put at risk. Will
    they do it? Nah.

    There are some IRA terrorists in English jails for 25 years not for
    actually killing anyone but for "attempted murder". It is also
    considered a hardship that these prisoners are kept in English jails
    since it makes it so much more difficult for their families to visit.
    
    Murderer Clegg, however, was immediately transfered to an English jail
    to make it easier for his family.

>
>WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS ANGRY AT RELEASE
>1995/07/04
>_________________________________
>by Conor O'Clery, in Washington, DC
>
>THE White House was caught unawares yesterday by news of the release
>of Private Clegg. Officials were said to be privately angry at the
>British move which has produced an atmosphere of crisis in the peace
>process.
>
>The Irish ambassador to Washington, Mr Dermot Gallagher, met Ms Nancy
>Soderberg, staff director of the National Security Council, at the
>White House yesterday. He gave her a copy of the Taoiseach's statement
>on the Clegg release and a transcript of an interview with the
>Tanaiste in which Mr Spring said the issue of prisoners had to be
>addressed urgently.
>
>A leading Irish-American spokesman, Mr Bruce Morrison, last night
>urged the White House to add its voice to those calling for the
>British government to begin prisoner releases in Northern Ireland to
>help end the stalemate in the process.
>
>According to one senior administration official, the White House had
>an understanding from the British side that if and when Private Clegg
>was released, there would be reciprocal action concerning republican
>and loyalist prisoners.
>
>The feeling in the White House yesterday was that the release of
>Private Clegg at this time was a cynical move connected with the
>Conservative Party leadership vote today, according to one
>wellinformed source.
>
>Despite its close involvement in the peace process, officials in the
>White House were not alerted by the British embassy to the decision to
>release Private Clegg.
>
>Though the White House policy of encouraging both sides in the peace
>process remains apparently unchanged, the US ambassador to London,
>Admiral William Crowe, had a tense meeting within the last few days
>with the Sinn Fein leader, Mr Gerry Adams, which was dominated by the
>arms decommissioning issue, sources said.
>
>The meeting did not go well, according to one source who said that the
>US State Department appeared to have accepted the British government
>argument that there had to be a move now from the Sinn Fein side on
>arms decommissioning, something which Mr Adams said he cannot deliver.
>
>Irish-American leaders said yesterday they want the White House to
>become more engaged in the peace process again, with a view to
>persuading the British side to move the process along.
>
>``Mr Clinton's personal involvement may again be crucial in
>rejuvenating the peace process,'' said Mr Morrison.
>
>He wanted the White House to add its voice to what is being said
>generally among Irish-American leaders about British policy.
>
>``There appears to be one set of rules for the British army and one
>set of rules for everyone else caught up in the conflict.''
>  _________________________________
>The Irish Times

    I like that - the "Casement 3" have been in jail for 6 years
    for watching a murder take place.
    
    A British soldier kills an Irish lass and gets released.
    
    Do the British people actually believe this will foster
    goodwill between Britain and Ireland and the greater
    Irish community? Do they even care?
    
    I had been fairly optimistic about the peace process.
    But now I am having second thoughts...

  The Clegg case has once again demonstrated to the rest of the world, that
  the British are not "impartial" peace-keepers, but an occupying army whose
  soldiers can do no wrong when it comes to murdering Irish civilians.
  Where is the justice for Karen Reilly, cut down at 17 by a murdering
  British para?  Where is the justice for her family?

  Contrast Clegg with Irishman Paul Norney who went to prison in 1975 at
  the age of 17.  He wasn't convicted of killing anyone.  

  How's about the Casement Accused, and the cases of Patrick Kane, Sean Kelly,
  and Michael Timmons.  They didn't murder anyone either, and yet they're
  still behind bars (for the misfortune of being at a funeral procession).

                       Mark

    >Do the British people actually believe this will foster goodwill
    >between Britain and Ireland...
    
    In my case no. None of my British friends and colleagues agree with
    this release and many of us have made the natuaral comparison with
    cleggs release and the prolonged imprisonment of innocent Irish people.
    
    Of course I cannot speak for the rest of Britain. In the past I have
    spoken out in this conference about American interference in the peace
    process. But, now I see that there is very little hope of peace
    succeeding if its left to the Brit government. I personally would
    now welcome extreme pressure from the states (and anywhere else) to
    force the Brit government to act fairly.
    
    One more thing. For anyone who doubts the guilt of clegg and his army
    chums, just remember that obscene poster in the mess which celebrated
    the way the car was stopped by cleggs patrol - no sympathy at all for
    the dead girl.
    
    rgds
    Mark                             

    
    For what it's worth, nobody I have spoken to agrees with this release
    either.
    
    Once again, using the word 'British' does not mean anything here. Most
    of the British have a total indifference to NI and would know very
    little of what goes on there.
    Thankfully, most of the Irish and thinking Brits know that this is a
    political football and has nothing to do with right and wrong.
    
    Bill

>Thankfully, most of the Irish and thinking Brits know that this is a
>political football and has nothing to do with right and wrong.

 It's wrong.
    

No more campaigning for Republican prisoners to be released then, I
assume?

Chris.

  re. .78

 If a British soldier convicted by a British court for murdering a 
  17 year old Irish girl can be released, then Irish civilians and
  Irish Republican Army soldiers convicted in juryless British courts,
  without the right to silence, sometimes with tortured confessions
  and faked evidence, sure as hell should have been released years ago.
  To make matters worse, many should never have been convicted in the
  first place.  But that's British justice for you, isn't it.

 I don't see how you can have peace, without justice.  British soldiers,
  and British policeman, who by their own rules are guilty of murdering
  civilians should be brought to trial and appropriately punished.  By
  their own rules they were not at war, and yet they murdered civilians.
   
                           Mark 

So on the one hand, you're saying that it was wrong to free Clegg and
anyone suspected of foul play on the British side should be dealt with
accordingly, and on the other you're saying that Republican prisoners
should be freed because of mitigating circumstances (which could probably
be found for just about any suspect if one digs deep enough)

Sounds a bit like the double standards you so often condemn.

If you really stand for peace, why would you risk adding to the problems
already faced by demanding the release of more prisoners, which would be
seen by many as an equally grave injustice as the freeing of Pvt Clegg.

Chris.

  The double standard is a British one.  I didn't send in troops, and
  say they were peace keepers.  The British did.  I didn't then tell
  the world that they would behave as impartial peace-keepers.  The
  British did.  I didn't then convict one of my own for murder of a
  17 year old girl, and then let that murderer go free.  The British
  did.

                  Mark

Well we could go on to the subject of accountability.  Perhaps the British
Army should have adopted the IRA tactic of not naming the murderer, then
everyone would be happy.

Chris.

    
    Lee Clegg is not "free" he is released under licence, I'm sure that
    this is well known, bear with me while I make a point. I accept that
    this means he is not in prison. However he is still a convicted
    murderer who could be returned to prison at any time. In Ireland there
    is no parole system, life sentences are reviewed, the main criteria are
    sutability of sentence served and likelihood to reoffend. At the same
    time as Lee Clegg was reviewed nine others were reviewed, 5 were
    released and 4 were not. This is a normal occurence in NI. I have been
    unable to find out who/what the other 5 were. It is my assumption that
    the view was taken that Lee Clegg is unlikely to re-offend. I further
    assume that this criteria can not be satisfied in the cases of
    convicted terrorists.
    From what I read, those campaigning for release of other prisoners are
    choosing to opt for aquittal, as well as release, this is a much more
    complex task, and takes longer, that is presumably their choice.
    
    Andrew

    Re -.1
    
    Lee Clegg was immediately transferred to a jail in England where is
    family could visit him. many Irish prisoners are kept in jails in
    England so that their families cannot visit them.
    
    Lee Clegg served only four years of a life sentence. There are some
    "terrorists" who have been in jail for 20 years for "attempted" murder.
    Lee Clegg was convicted of murder. (Attempted murder means you didn't
    actually kill the victim).
    
    The guidelines under which a prisoner is reviewed for release were
    discussed in parliament yesterday. It seems that the average prisoner
    is expected to serve at least 50% of his sentence before he is released
    on licence. Lee Clegg has not served anywhere near this.
    
    Do you think that the release of Lee Clegg has harmed the current peace
    negotiations ?
    
    Do you think that Lee Clegg should have been released ?
    
    Do you think that the Irish people would be justified in taking the
    view that there is one set of rules for the British army and another
    for civilians ?
    
    Ed.

    I do not condone the practice of keeping prisoners a long way away from
    those who wish to visit them.
    
    When Lee Clegg was release the newspapers made the point that the
    length of his sentence was short, but it was not the first time, I'm
    afraid that I can't remember the details.
    
    Has the release harmed the peace protest? - No.
    
    Should he have been released? - Yes.
    
    Are the Irish justified...? - Yes and No.
    
    Could someone just run through the steps which the various groups in
    Ireland have made towards the peace process? Just to have a brief list
    in one place.
    
    Thanks
    
    Andrew

I don't see much difference between murder & attempted murder in that
the perpetrator obviously failed in the latter instance,  The intent is
still the same.

However,  Clegg was probably only convicted of murder due to manslaughter
not actually existing and due to technical issue (When the 4 bullets
were fired over a very short period of time).  WHile not agreeing with
his release at this particular time I do have some sympathy for Clegg's
case on an individual basis such as the circumstances of the incident.

To me, there's a world of difference between the Clegg incident and a lot
of the terrorist activities of both sides (ie killing/bombing people because 
they live in a particular area).  Clegg and his unit had a couple of seconds
to decide on the circumstances of a car speeding towards them.  The
terrorists take a lot longer to plan their activities.

Just my opinion.

 re. .85 and .86

 Anyone who thinks Clegg should have been released needs to have their
 head examined.  Did it harm the peace process? Of course.  Is there
 a double standard?  One only needs to read an Amnesty International
 human rights report on Northern Ireland to see that their has always
 been a double standard.

 
> I don't see much difference between murder & attempted murder 

 Well you see, in the first case, you have a dead person.  Dead people
 don't have any future, any further interaction with their loved ones.
 Dead people don't raise children, take care of their elderly parents.
 Dead people don't have an opportunity to make the world a better place
 for everyone.  Do you understand the difference now?

 

    Thank you for explaining the difference between murder and attempted
    murder. Would you please also explain the difference in intent betwwen
    someone who commits murder and someone who attempts to commit murder.
    
    Dave

    I'll have my head examined if you think I need to. What shall I tell the
    shrink to look for?
    
    The description you give of the difference between a dead person and a
    living person is good. Do you think that all the various terrorist
    groups who have been active in Ireland until recently had such a clear
    understanding?
    
    Andrew

The only difference between attempted murder & actual murder is the dead
body.  The intention of the perpetrator is still that body to be dead.

As I said I don't think that Clegg should have been released at this time.
I think each case needs to looked at individually as part of the peace
protest.  For example, I see a difference between attacks on the security
forces in what is normally a war and the shooting of people just because
they happened to be in a pub/betting shop which was mainly used by people
from a particular religion.  Is Mark Holohan advocating that all these
people be released immediately?

I don't see any justification for the release of people who have just
randomly killed someone even with the peace process.  I suspect a number
will be released though.

    re .85 Its obvious from the recent protests in NI that the unilateral
    release of Clegg has harmed the peace process.

For anyone to believe that the release of Clegg hasn't harmed to peace
process must look again very closely at what has happened since the
release. 

His case is being rightly or wrongly used as the straw that broke the
camel's back.  I don't know whether he should have been released or
not, but it was the manner in which he as eventually freed that rankles
with a lot of people over here in Ireland.  He was, after all,
convicted of murder by at least two independent juries of murder but
still he served only 3/4 years and was released as part of a "pay off"
by John Major to save his own skin.  No one has adequately explained 
why he was released!

If the British are trying to be fair about the peace process and are
really willing to make progress then incidents like Clegg are *not*
the way to go.  His release reinforces in the Catholic/Nationalist
population the view that there is one set of laws for
unionists/soldiers/British and another (much less lenient/fair set)
for the rest. 

If people think they are being treated unfairly then it is almost
inevitable (in the N. Ireland context) that some unsavoury characters
are going to jump on the bandwagon and cause trouble in what might
otherwise be peaceful demonstrations.  This was after all how the
troubles started in the first place. 

I just wonder about the *real* commitment of both sides for peace in
Northern Ireland in the light of recent events. 

                          James.

An explanation of the difference between murder and attempted murder :-
In Britain the maximum sentence for attempted murder is something like
10 years and the sentence for murder is life (usually 15 years before 
parole).

Now carefully study the following table and see if you can spot any pattern
emerging...

I.D		Country of origin	convicted of 	Sentence handed down
		of accused		killing 	by a British court
--		-----------------	-----------	--------------------
3 Warrington
Gas bombers	Ireland			0		35, 25, 20 years

Lee Clegg	England			1		Life (4 years served)

A.N. Other	England			1		Life (2 years served)
(British Soldier - see below)

Paul Norney	Ireland			0		20 years so far
							and still in jail
Patrick Kane	Ireland			0		??? in jail since '88

Sean Kelly	Ireland			0		??? in jail since '88

Michael Timmons	Ireland			0		??? in jail since '88

Paul Hill	Ireland			0		Life (16 years in jail)

Gerard Conlon 	Ireland			0		Life (16 years in jail)

Guiseppi Conlon Ireland			0		Life (died in jail)


Between 1969 and 1991 21 members of the British security forces were
prosecuted for killings using firearms while on duty in Northern Ireland. 
Nineteen were found not guilty and one was convicted of manslaughter and
given a suspended sentence. One soldier was convicted of murder and was
given a life sentence, but released after serving 2 years.

Now, I could be wrong but I suspect that there might be a pattern here.
Can anyone else spot it?
    

  The British government does not want peace.  If they wanted peace they
  would have started high level talks with Sinn Fein by now.

  Eddie has pointed out a pattern.  This pattern of British justice has
  also been pointed out over the last 10 years by Amnesty International, and
  Helsinki Watch.  The Clegg case is another slap in the face to the
  peace process (which I wouldn't even class as starting until Britain
  agrees to sit down to high level talks with it's enemy).

  How low will the British government stoop to wreck the process?  Just wait.
  They've played games for a long time, and are quite good at it.  Now they'll
  probably throw a morsel, and then find another sticking point to delay
  talks.  

                               Mark

   	re .94
    
   > The British government does not want peace.  If they wanted peace they
   > would have started high level talks with Sinn Fein by now.
    
    	You seem to be stating a fact here in your first statement which in
    all terms is 100% untrue. By that statement it seems that the British 
    (English) government were happy with the riots, murder, extortion (sp) 
    not only on the IRA side but also in the Royalists camp.
    
    	I very much dont think so.
    
    If N. Ireland becomes part of Ireland do you in your heart believe that
    will be the end of the troubles, the extortion will end, the beatings
    will stop. I believe there should be a democratic vote from the people
    in Northern Ireland to determin there own future, oh and also the
    people in Scotland to determin theres. 
    
    				.....Alan 

    Re. The Brit gov. don't want peace.
    
    The Brit Gov. probably think they can use the NI situation to their 
    benefit by strategically releasing prisoners, making apeasements etc.
    at certain stages in the future. Therefore are quite happy to prolong
    the process at the expense of the Irish and dare I say it British
    people.
     

There's a bit more to it than that.  Both sides are guilty of the `peace,
but only on our terms' argument.  I'd say that Sinn Fein are being the least
flexible, but neither side has much to be proud of in their uncompromising
stance.  Of course some people like to look at it from one side only to
boost their `holier than thou' personas.

Chris.

    re .97 Okay you have a point, but it appears that the Brit gov. have
    less to loose by being more flexible - so why aren't they.
                                                
    Mark

    Re .98
    
    > Okay you have a point, but it appears that the Brit gov. have
    >  less to loose by being more flexible - so why aren't they.
     
    Britain will not ever voluntarily move closer to giving up the last
    remnants of its empire. If they relinquish their claim on NI then they
    know they will strengthen the arguments for an independent Scotland.
    The British Government see peace in NI as a stepping stone to a
    completely free and independent republic of Ireland.                                                                

I don't think anyone gives a monkey's about the long defunct British Empire,
even the crustiest old MPs.

Chris.

    
    
    The old way of life dies hard for some people, If only it was the same
    as it was in the old days....How many times have you heard that......
    
    	A.B...
    

I don't think the government cares much about what happens in NI.  It's
just looking to get rid of the hassle.

The reason for its apparently inflexible attitude towards the peace process
is all down to its current majority in Westminster.  It needs to keep
the Unionist MPs sweet for the crucial votes in Parliament.

It appears to me that all sides are being fairly inflexible in their
rhetoric to the press.  What's being decided behind closed doors is most
probably completely different.  Remember they are al politicians and
need to keep their own constituencies happy.

Taking a hardline view like Eddie McInally & Mark Holahan is just as 
damaging to the peace process as any release of prisoners.  

    Which headline news do you remember ?
    
    1) Riots in the streets of Belfast after release of murderer Clegg
    
    or
    
    2) Riots in the streets of Belfast after Eddie McInally takes a hard
    line view ?
    
    Answers on a postcard to "The British Conservative AND UNIONIST
    party..."

Eddie,

I suspect you have as much influence on the peace process as you and Mark
have on the views of people in here.  

If you would care to read the last paragraph I wrote in my previous note 
it had the word "like" preceding your name.  The inclusion of this word 
will no doubt change the meaning of the sentence.  Not that it will change
your views regarding the British govt which in a surprisingly large number 
of cases you may find to be similar to mine.

Its the rhetoric that will spoil the peace process, distancing the various
sides.  

>but only on our terms' argument.  I'd say that Sinn Fein are being the least
>flexible, but neither side has much to be proud of in their uncompromising
    
    That's interesting Chris. And why do you believe Sinn Fein are
    the least flexible? Funny, I think the British government
    as of late is acting inflexible. At least S.F. want to negociate.
    The British government keeps pandering to politics, making excuses
    for not engaging in full negociations, and refuses to include
    the total "demilitarization" of Northern Ireland. If the paramilitaries
    offer to get rid of their weaponry (which is a definite good thing),
    then why should not Britain in conjunction discuss removing their
    18,000 soldiers (most of whom are not even native to Ireland) ???
    Seems only fair to me.
    
    If there were to be peace in Ireland, what other agenda does Britain
    have in keeping their military garrison in Northern Ireland?
    
    /g
         

    RE .103,
    
    You've never seen the streets of Ayr after Eddie issues one of his
    press releases....
    
    				...Alan

    
    RE .102 and .105
    
    I believe .102 hit a couple of bull's eyes.
    All politians worry about their constituency votes and Major's 
    government needs the Unionist MPs (not sure how many there are?).
    So it is to the government's advantage to delay and drag out the 
    so called peace process to maintain their power.
    I think it is obvious so far that Major's government does not want to 
    offend the Unionist thus them raising the bar on Sinn Fein.
    
    I sort of agree with .105, however I rank the worst compromisers as;
     1. Unionist/Loyalist/Paisley
     2. Major's British Government
     3. Sinn Fein
     
        Sinn Fein took the cease fire initiative and have always wanted to
        sit down with all parties.  I wish the Unionist and the British 
        could forget the past and just move towards the future together. 
       
    
    Cheers,
    Paul

re .105,

that was a fairly minor point in my post, although my opinion (and it's
only that - an opinion!) about Sinn Fein is based on the likes of Adams
and McGuinness using any opportunity to mouth off at the opposition (true,
the Tories are also guilty of this) and refusing to surrender weapons.
Why do they refuse to surrender them?  Is there still some internal political
battle going on to revoke the ceasefire and resume attacks?  The Army are
likely to be there for the time being, as, again IMO, their prime role in
the situation (ignoring how successfully it's being carried out) is to be
at hand if any parties take upon themselves to start getting violent.

As I've said in other notes, I don't think that the British Army should
necessarily be there by default, but some armed presence should be at
hand until the risk of violence has subsided (ie *all* paramilitaries,
freedom fighters, terrorists or whatever they like to call themselves
have disarmed)

Chris.

    >that was a fairly minor point in my post, although my opinion (and it's
    >only that - an opinion!) about Sinn Fein is based on the likes of Adams
    >and McGuinness using any opportunity to mouth off at the opposition (true,
    >the Tories are also guilty of this) and refusing to surrender weapons.
    >Why do they refuse to surrender them?
    
    Think about it. The IRA surrenders all its weapons. Then for whatever
    political reasons (reference the Clegg case) the British announce continued
    support for the sectarian RUC. Furthermore, the British Army announces
    plans to stay on indefinitely in Ireland. Then what happens?
    
    >Is there still some internal political
    >battle going on to revoke the ceasefire and resume attacks?
    
    Yes, probably there is. And it probably exacerbated by the fact that
    the British Army has made no substantial indication it wishes to
    enter full negociations. I will state the 600? soldier reassignment
    last month was a start, but then nothing followed up. 
    
    >The Army are
    >likely to be there for the time being, as, again IMO, their prime role in
    >the situation (ignoring how successfully it's being carried out) is to be
    >at hand if any parties take upon themselves to start getting violent.
    
    The various paramilitaries have all announced they wish to achieve
    peace in Ireland. Why cannot the British include disengagement of their
    forces as part of an overall settlement? Why cannot the British agree
    to send 6,000 soldiers (a third) home in exchange for the paramilitaries
    relinquishing 50% of their weaponry to, say a neutral party like the
    Swedes? Why cannot a timetable be made for this and future weapons
    exchanges? How long is a flight from Manchester or Leeds to Belfast
    if problems erupt? Not very long. You'd be there before the Irish
    show up.
    
    >As I've said in other notes, I don't think that the British Army should
    >necessarily be there by default, but some armed presence should be at
    >hand until the risk of violence has subsided (ie *all* paramilitaries,
    >freedom fighters, terrorists or whatever they like to call themselves
    >have disarmed)
    
    I think most people would agree with you here. But if you have a chance
    to mutually disengage with peace, respect, and pride, then why not do
    so? It's a win-win situation for all involved.
    
    I mean seriously Chris, this conflict has run its course. The Irish people
    want peace. The terrorists/freedom-fighters/guerillas/call-em-what-you-want
    want peace. The tourists want peace. And then the crap with Clegg and
    the Parades happen and everything takes 2 steps backwards. I just think
    the time has come for some serious negociation...
    
    /g

    I think that the British people's view of the government would improve
    if they allowed NI to be re-united with the rest of Ireland. Some would
    say "for the wrong reasons" but most mainland Brits are heartily fed up
    with NI. If letting it go is the way to stability then so be it.
    The situation for those living in NI who do not wish to be governed
    from Dublin is more of a problem. I do not have an answer, what is
    proposed by the parties seeking unity?
    What possible reason could the British Government have for not wanting
    peace? I've read no convincing reason in here, nor seen any elsewhere.
    The truth of the matter, as I percieve it, is that the IRA/UFF/... have
    made no move to a lasting end to the violence which has marred the past
    25 years. The British Government has withdrawn some troops, 3% ish, and
    wants to see others doing the same.
    
    Seems reasonable to me.
    
    Andrew

    It was announced over the weekend that murderer Clegg is to keep his
    job in the British Army.

                                   [Image]

                               25 January 1996

British Forces Conduct Raids and Arrests on Morning of US Senator Mitchell's
                                   Report

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An Irish man in his 70's suffering from cancer is understood to be among a
number of nationalists arrested in dawn raids in West Belfast on Wednesday
morning, January 24, within hours of Senator George Mitchell's report being
published in Belfast city center.

The men are believed to have been taken in armoured personnel carriers
(APC's) to the notorious Castlereagh interrogation centet, itself severely
indicted by many international human rigts agencies, including Amnesty
Internatioal.

They were still being held on Thursday evening without access to their legal
representatives under British `Emergency' law enacted over 25 years ago.

Under these draconian `laws' they can be held for seven days without legal
counsel and have no right to silence, a further denial of a defendant's
basic human rights removed by the British government several years ago.

British forces would not confirm that other similar house raids or arrests
are planned.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Unfortunately a campaign has been started to free even more convicted
murderers. The two Scots Guards who were jailed in 1995 for the murder of a
young Belfast man are now the subject of a campaign for their release. (See 
reply 1345.48).
    

The case of the latest two British soldiers convicted of murdering a young 
Belfast man (or "shooting dead" as all of the British media chooses to report
it) is the subject of a "Frontline Scotland" documentary to be screened on
BBC Scotland tonight at 22:25.