Conference tallis::celt

    Re .0
    
    > Good news,but still nothing to the IRA's revenge on Warrington.
    > The Murder of Johnathan Ball(3 years old) and Tim Parry(10years old).
    
    
    This is the kind of attitude which Mr Holohan rightly condemns. You are
    implying by listing names and ages of children being murdered in a
    British mainland town that they are more relevant than the hundreds of
    innocent people (adults & children) who have been killed in NI since the
    troubles began, or perhaps your are going to list all of their names and
    ages too !
    
    Was anyone killed in the bombing of the Warrington gas works ? Given
    the normal custodial sentence for murder in Britain is about 15 years
    then the 80 year prison sentence would equate to 5 people being murdered.
    As I understand it no-one was killed but the attempted murder of a
    policeman was one of the charges on which they were found guilty.
    
    I'm afraid that this stinks of British revenge rather than justice. Or
    maybe it does stink of "British justice" as far as anyone Irish is
    concerned.
    

    
>    This is the kind of attitude which Mr Holohan rightly condemns. You are
>    implying by listing names and ages of children being murdered in a
>    British mainland town that they are more relevant than the hundreds of
>    innocent people (adults & children) who have been killed in NI since the
>    troubles began, or perhaps your are going to list all of their names and
>    ages too !
 

     I implied nothing.You just read into it what you wanted.What I was doing
    was putting the human factor across so it wasn't just all statistics.
    The death of any child in this manner is sickening.What's almost as bad
    is people making arguments out of the naming of of these two innocent
    children.
       
    >Was anyone killed in the bombing of the Warrington gas works ?

     No but it wasn't for the lack of trying.They blew up a gas tank right
    next to a housing estate.So they really thought about the people next
    to it.

    >I'm afraid that this stinks of British revenge rather than justice. Or
    >maybe it does stink of "British justice" as far as anyone Irish is
    >concerned.
    
     it stinks of nothing.....they should have got life(until your dead
    life)
     
    
    
    SCott

    
    What do these gas tanks hold ?? 500,000 cubic feet of compressed gas ??
    
    What sort of devastation would that have caused if their plan had not 
    failed ?? 35,25 and 20 years doesn't seem long enough compared to the
    holocaust that could easily have happened.
    
    Gordon...

    
    It was revenge all right. Why else would they strike again with such
    deliberate cruelty. And it was just luck and ineptitude on their part
    there wasn't a massive explosion that could have killed hundreds. As it
    was there was a fireball as one of the charges went off. 
    

Re .2

In this country :-

If you deliberately kill someone the crime is murder.

If you try to kill someone and fail, the crime is attempted murder.

I don't believe that these men were charged with the attempted murder of
X number of people.

I still say it is British REVENGE and nothing to do with justice.
    

    OK you tell me.What do you think is a fair sentence for an act that
    could have killed hundreds??.


    SCott

    Scott,
    
    I do not make the laws.
    
    I happen to think that a life sentence should mean that you stay in
    jail to you die.
    
    I believe that anyone who is tried in a British court should expect to
    get "justice" but Irish people never seem to get justice.

>    I believe that anyone who is tried in a British court should expect to
>    get "justice" but Irish people never seem to get justice.

     This is just not true.Terrorists should be given the highest sentences
    possible.This is Usually the case.it just so happens the the majority
    of terrorists convicted in Britain are Irish.

    SCott

 What's really amazing is that anyone can justify this
 classic example of British injustice.

                    Mark

> What's really amazing is that anyone can justify this
> classic example of British injustice.

What is your reason for thinking it's British injustice?

Dave

  Because in a society where murderers get 15 years,
  a sentence of 80, for attempted murder, is off the
  f'ing wall.

  Not to mention that given the record of the British
  justice system in faking evidence against Irish
  Nationals, there is some serious doubt as to whether
  the men sentenced had even committed a crime.

                  Mark

    Just a question, what were the circumstances surrounding the arrest of
    these men?
    
    Were they caught in the act or is there "serious doubt as to whether
    the men sentenced had even committed a crime"(from .11).
    
    Joe.
    
    
                                                           

        It wasn't attempted murder, it was attempted genocide. If the 
        IRA's plan had worked the end of the gas holder would have been 
        blown off causing the cylinder to 'torpedo' into the housing 
        estate.
        
        The 80 years jail sentence refers to the total of all three 
        sentences, not 80 years each.
        
        

    It stills represents a 2 tier judicial system, one for the Irish and
    another for the local Brits.
    
    That is why I am joining Amnesty International. "British justice" does
    more for recruitement for I.R.A. than anything else.
    
    Ren�

    As mentioned earlier these three Brave Freedom Fighters  Planted a bomb
    with the intention of it blowing up a Gas Tank that would have wiped
    out a whole housing estate.  Ehen caught in the act they shot a
    Policeman,  Hijacked a car etc.  
    
    Why Mark H should be upset about the sentence is beyongd me.  According
    to reports all three men smiled and waved when sentenced.  Presumably
    to show their Joy at their sentence.
    
    It is now clear that the subsequent Warrington Bombing was carried out
    in revenge for the capture of the first three pratts.  This by the way
    is Justice IRA STYLE.  
    
    You caught our chaps they haven't been sentenced yet so we will blow up
    a shopping centre,  carefully ensuring that crowds of armed children
    run from the first blast they are caught head on in the second blast. 
    
    Unfortunately for them there will be no court nobody for them to smile
    and wave at.  Only Dickheads like Holohan to rejoice in their death. 
    As for joining AI.  Why not save your money and joing the Boy Scouts.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce
    
    Not a citizen of Planet Holohan.

    
    Well of course he's going to be upset. A brave freedom fighter caught
    with a bombe in one hand and a gun in the other is being railroaded by
    the filthy Brit so called justice system. Hell, when the brits catch a
    bloke trying to blow up their cities, they're supposed to smile and
    give him a plane ticket. 
    

> As for joining AI.  Why not save your money and joing the Boy Scouts.
  
    I was a boy scout and a sea scout, the problem is that they do not
    oppose injustice. It is very easy to sit and write and complain,
    anybody can do that, it doesn't require much guts.
    
    I sat down the other day with a Muslim girl and we were speaking about
    religion. I noticed that we had so many beliefs in common. Then we got
    to the differences and it started to get complicated. We agreed that
    rather than arguing about the differences, we could agree that we had
    more in common than we had in differences.
    
    What I am trying to say is that tolerance and selling peace as a
    common agent for the well being of the people of Ireland and Britain 
    is a much better approach than alienating people against the British.
    This one handed approach to justice is not the solution. For every man
    or woman the British imprison, there are at least 5 to take their
    place.
    
    Ren�     

>    What I am trying to say is that tolerance and selling peace as a
>    common agent for the well being of the people of Ireland and Britain 
>    is a much better approach than alienating people against the British.

That may be the case, but how much tolerance can there be of people who shoot
unarmed policemen and place bombs intended to kill large numbers of civilians?
Of organisations which have attempted to assassinate the British Prime Minister
and half the Cabinet (and almost succeeded)?

Amnesty has plenty to say about British injustice. It has precious little to
say about the actions of the IRA.

Dave

Irish people are very sensitive to the "justice" of British Law since the 
debacle of the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6, and the Maguire family.
This is right. But I believe that the British judicial system must
have improved since these cathartic events of the early to mid 1970's.

However, compared to the IRA's implentation of 'justice', I think
I know what system I'd settle for. 

Tell that to yer new pals in AI....

Tell them also that that is the opinion of someone who lives in Ireland...


regards,

*Tiger*

    Re .17
    
    Show me the AI report that details the human rights violations carried
    out by the IRA.  Show me the AI Report that demands that the IRA makes
    public it's records.  Tell the people of Warrington about how they
    should join AI.  Ask Mr Tim Parry what he thinks of the sentencing of
    these peaces of meat.
    
    Please feel free to post all the above in this conference so that we
    can all see their un-biased reporting.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

 re. .15
 His Royal highness, Bruce says ..."Only Dickheads..."

 Now that's a mouthful for a British man like yourself.
 No wonder you all eventually turn up with plastic
 bags over your heads, wearing womens clothing.


 re. .18
 How much tolerance can there be for people who wear
 British uniforms, terrorize a community of people,
 and murder innocent children?  Or pass on hit-lists
 to death squads in an attempt to assasinate political
 opposition.

 re. .19
  "Tell them also that that is the opinion of someone
   who lives in Ireland..."

  Hey Tigger or Pooh-bear or whatever you call yourself,
  why don't you try living under British rule for a 
  while, before you give your opinion on British 
  injustice directed at the Irish.
  You might be enlightened.

                        Mark

    
    A very thoughtful reply. Am I impressed!
    

>This is right. But I believe that the British judicial system must
>have improved since these cathartic events of the early to mid 1970's.
    
    What's your evidence that the British judicial system has been improved
    Tiger? Have they removed Diplock courts? Have they eliminated silence
    as admission of guilt? Have they eliminated juryless trials? Have they
    eliminated their "Prevention of Terrorism Act" where Irish people are
    imprisoned for long periods without arrest? Have they arrested and
    imprisoned British soldiers for killing Irish civilians with equitable
    sentences?
    
    I would not call the events of false imprisonment of Irish people
    cathartic, I would call it a travesty of justice and a bit of racism.
    I don't subscribe to IRA justice either.
    
    George (someone who doesn't live in Ireland)
                                               

    re .22
    
    Mark
    
    I actually am Scottish and proud of it.  I would not refer to myself as
    British bur as a Scot or a Celt.  Both of which do not apply to
    yourself Mark,  as you clearly demonstrate in your knowledge of British
    people.
    
    I personally  have never seen any British people dressed as you
    describe Mark.  However you have never invited me to one of your
    parties.  I have heard of a strange race who like to dress up in black
    balaclavas and buy ambulances with their dole money.  Is this who you
    refer to. ??
    
    I am glad that you have at long last recognised my true title and hope
    that in the future you will continue to bow and scrape to me.
    
    
    A tip for the future Mark.  Brush your teeth with dog turds after one
    of your speeches.  You'll find it freshens your breath up a treat.
    
    :*)
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

Well Tiger,

It looks like that as a resident of Ireland you are underqualified to form an
opinion on the subject.  Across the pond they are much better informed about
these things. 

>    What's your evidence that the British judicial system has been improved
>    Tiger? Have they removed Diplock courts? Have they eliminated silence
>    as admission of guilt? Have they eliminated juryless trials? Have they

There are no Diplock courts on the UK mainland, where this trial took place.

Silence is not currently regarded as admission of guilt. There are plans to 
allow silence to be brought to the attention of the court. Not quite the same
thing.

There are no trials without juries on the UK mainland, except for magistrate
courts which deal with minor offences.

Get your facts right.

Dave

    There are Diplock courts in NI.
    Silence shouldn't imply anything but silence.
    There are juryless trials in NI.
    NI is part of UK.  Check yer map.  :v)

    The founder of AI was a enlightened Englishman.
    
    

>    There are Diplock courts in NI.
>    There are juryless trials in NI.

This note is about a trial held in ENGLAND.

>    Silence shouldn't imply anything but silence.

It doesn't.

>    NI is part of UK.  Check yer map.  :v)

I come from NI, so I don't need to check a map.

Dave

    Tiger, the British admission of false/questionable imprisonment of the
    Maguire, Guilford, and Birmingham groups is a step in the right direction.
    Not to mention the release of Paddy Culbert's relative from Derry. 
    
    Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I think the jury is still out (no pun
    intended) on whether the British judicial system will be fair to
    Irish citizens. It's gone on for so many years.
    
    /g

>This note is about a trial held in ENGLAND.
    
    Sorry Dave, I was speaking about British justice as a whole, including
    the justice system in NI and the justice system in England. And yes I
    know they are different.
    
    /G

My points were entirely about British Law in Britain, not about NI.

I believe that there are enough English people of good faith in that
Country to ensure eventual justice.

After all, who got the Guildford Four out??? It was 90% the results
of concerned residents of Britain...

The Irish Government were noticeable by their silence.

Grow up, learn to use your eyes.

*Tiger*

ps....my name is Tadhg...pronounced "Tie" as in neckcloth and "g" as is ghost.
hence I am nicknamed "Tiger"....but then again Mark, I wouldnt expect you would
see many people called "Tadhg" where you live...eh??

>After all, who got the Guildford Four out??? It was 90% the results
>of concerned residents of Britain...
    
    So we should be ingratiated to the British for being fair and just
    to the Irish?  Like it isn't a basic human right?  Should we shine
    their shoes too?

    I agree with you Tiger that most British people are
    concerned/fair/just.  That being said, fair and equitable
    justice is not a privilege, but a basic right.
    
    The Irish government didn't imprison the Guildford 4.
    I don't see how you can blame them for problems with
    British judicial system.  The British put them in jail.
    It was their responsibility after that.

    
    re .32, what do you mean "we" George? As an American living in the US,
    you have little to do with what goes on in UK or Ireland.
    

re. .31
"ps....my name is Tadhg...pronounced "Tie" as in neckcloth and "g" as is ghost.
hence I am nicknamed "Tiger"....but then again Mark, I wouldnt expect you would
see many people called "Tadhg" where you live...eh??"

 To be honest, I don't see many people being called
 Tiger either.  But of course, there aren't many
 Tiger's where I live, but then again I wouldn't expect
 you to know that.

               Mark



                

    >re .32, what do you mean "we" George? As an American living in the US,
    >you have little to do with what goes on in UK or Ireland.
   
    I mean "we" - concerned citizens of the world.  How's that sound? :v)
    Similar to the world community that involves itself in Somalia, Bosnia,
    Kuwait, Libya, WWII, etc...
    
    By the way, you don't know my nationality.  Nor should it make any
    difference.
    
    This is another rathole...

    
    You mean you're not a US citizen? And it makes a difference when you
    intimate you're personally affected by the justice system you find so
    abhorrent. Btw, are you aware of the failings of the US justice system,
    in cases like Yankel Rosenbaum? 
    

    The reasons there are juryless trials and Diplock courts in NI is
    because the jurys kept getting intimidated by the paramilitaries and
    the judges keep getting assasinated.
    
    Fix the root cause, not the symptoms.
    
    Joe.

re. .38

  The root cause is the terrorizing of the Nationalist
 population by the British "security forces" and
 their loyalist death squads with whom they collude.
 The Nationalist community is 2 and 1/2 times as likely
 to be unemployed as those in the Loyalist community.
 The "peace keepers" murder with impunity, and continue
 to censor legal political opposition.
 Add to that the continuous stream of human rights
 violations by the British "security forces" and it's
 quite easy to see why the Irish Republican Army are
 fighting.

 Stop parroting the "blame the terrorists" propoganda
 line.  Fix the root cause, not the symptoms.

                Mark

    
    Root cause and symptoms are the same. Namely yor terrorist heroes.
    

    re .39
    >>>continue to censor legal political opposition.
    
    Sorry Mark, the SDLP are not censored in any form or fashion.
    
    Joe.

re. 41

 Sorry Joe, Sinn Fein is a legal political party, and
 it is censored.
 Besides, SDLP members are targeted by loyalist
 death squads as well, and as we all know now, the
 British government colludes with these death squads.
 So I'd say the British government is "censoring"
 SDLP as well, by having SDLP members who appear 
 too "republican" murdered.

                   Mark

 re. .37 (Eastland harrasses George)

  Hey Eastland, are you really not a North Korean
  citizen?  Because it makes a difference when you
  intimate you personally stand behind state sponsored
  terrorism.  Btw, are you aware that a rip in the
  space-time continuum in the Boston area, might
  suck unwelcome north Korean citizens all the way 
  back to Britain, where they belong?

                  Mark

    
    Ho ho, I am rolling. That was soo funny! You really have a comic
    talent. As for standing behind terrorism, given your support for the
    IRA's bombing campaign, one can only stand in awe of your effrontery.
    

    Hi Guys
    
    Well  Yesterday the inquest on the victims of the Warrington shopping
    centre (insert military target for Holohead) took place.
    
    We wait for AI, to tell us how they intend to lobby Gerry Adams & Co to
    stop these accidents occuring.
    
    Re-assuring to note that Mr Holohan's sense of fairness tells us that
    the IRA will do as they did in Guilford case announce who the guilty
    folks are.
    
    Meanwhile back on planet Earth,  Bernadette tells us how some people
    were un-coruptable and the greatest republicans to have lived.  
    
    Mark H, of course will tell us that this is true and we have all
    missed the real point.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce  

    RE: .45  by YUPPY::MILLARB 
    
    >Well  Yesterday the inquest on the victims of the Warrington shopping
    >centre (insert military target for Holohead) took place.
    
    I thought Holohead was for fairies.
    

    I just wanted to put my two cents in and clear up something. The IRA
    are as the dictionary would say, are Anarchist. This is a person or 
    persons that oppose the goverment because they feel that they are being
    oppressed or are being wrongfully treated and use terrorist actions
    to show this. A terrorist is just a person/persons that wish to inflicked
    terror upon others for money, power, hate or revenge. 
    If you think back in history America, England, France, and etc. funded
    Anarchism for their own advantage, in such places as Africa, Central 
    America, India, and Southeast Asia. Plus we(Allied Forces) permoted
    terrorism during WWII. Such groups as the French and German under-
    ground. 
    
    thanks
    Scott(American Irishman)
    
      

    
    OK I've thought about it, but I'm not quite sure what you're getting
    at.  Are you saying the IRA are OK because we've supported other groups
    using similiar tactics in the past ?   If that's your argument, then
    when Ireland is united (I reckon it will be before too long), you are
    also saying that the loyalist terrorists will become legitimate.
    
    Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick.
    
    Mark

    No not at all, but when judgement comes up in the court room I 
    would like to see the powers that be to think back alittle. Then
    consider their judgement of the Irish people. Plus I think that 
    those that are in the IRA shouldn't be considered legitimate, but
    their punishment should not be quick and thoughtless.
    
    Thanks
    Scott
     

    
    Oh of course. We should punish them slowly and thoughtfully. I agree
    with that. How much history do you remember, Scott?
    

    Scott, I think you need to re-read your definitions. An anarchist
    opposes ALL government, but does not necessarily use terrorist
    activities to achieve their objectives. 
    	
    > A terrorist is just a person/persons that wish to inflict terror upon 
    > others for money, power, hate or revenge. 
    
    That's right, and the definition fits both Loyalist and Nationalist
    terrorists very well, don't you think?

    Julie,
    I agree with you on the definition of terrorist, but I got the
    definition of a anarchist from the webster dictionary. It was a 
    little old so things might of changed alittle since it was published.
    
    Thanks,
    Scott
    

    
    Good to see one of the loyalist ringleaders getting a sentence if 480
    years this week.   

    
    No doubt that sentence was as a result of collusion between HMG and the
    Loyalists.