Conference tallis::celt

    Hey Mark H.  (insert Mr Credibility 0)
    
     For the second day running your pals have  planted bombs in main line 
    commuter stations into London.  
    
    These CIVILIAN STATIONS are the softest of soft targets due
    to thier rural location.
    
    Still you'll be thrilled and delighted that one of the may firms
    affected by this act of great courage on behalf of your peace seeking
    freedom fighters was Digital.  So Congratulations to you and your pals
    Mark.  
    
    Remember Mark Stay Safe in Boston as you reply telling us about this
    latest accidental targetting. 
    
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

Re.0  

Mark,

I can only take bullsh*t for so long.  In future could you post a 
paraphrased version of your bigger notes.  This would have several 
advantages :

(a) It would cut the time taken to read the points raised. I only note at 
    lunchtime and can't really afford the luxury of reading and replying to 
    everything.  I'm sure aothers are in the same boat.

(b) We could then focus on the more important issues raised as opposed to a 
    long, boring, dull mega-note.

(c) It would prove that you actually *read* what you are entering.  I, for 
    one, reckon that you just cross-post these articles without actually 
    understanding what they are saying.  


MR  

  re. .1
  I'm terribly sorry that some British commuters were
  delayed on their way to work.  How awful, can you
  imagine, it must be as bad as, say getting stopped
  in bumper-to-bumper trafic on 128. Or worse, getting
  stuck on the T. 

  re. .2
  Sorry your attention span limits itself to notes of
  less than three lines.

  You two really are pathetic.  Here's an idea, how's
  about an opinion on why the British are scuttling
  the peace talks.  Is Major just lining up the 
  Unionist vote again?  Trying to repair damage done?

                       Mark

 I've included below a letter I received from the
 President, stating his stance on north east Ireland.



                        The White House
                          Washington

 December 2, 1993


 Dear Mark:

    Thank you for your interest in my Administration's policies 
 toward Northern Ireland.  I welcome the efforts of Irish Prime
 Minister Albert Reynolds and British Prime Minister John Major to
 reinvigorate the negotiations for peace in Northern Ireland, and
 I join their condemnation of the use of violence for political
 ends.

    I strongly support joint efforts between the Irish and the
 British governments to restart talks about a just and lasting
 peace in Northern Ireland.  A solution that will satisfy all
 sides cannot be coerced or imposed, but the United States stands
 ready to support the peace process in any appropriate way.  We
 should all be determined not to allow another generation to
 suffer violence, harassment, or discrimination in Northern
 Ireland.

    I appreciate your interest in this issue.

 Sincerely,

  < Signed by Bill Clinton >

    Well Mark H
    
    Looks like your president has joined the conspiracy don't you think ??
    
    How can he support the efforts of John Major, which you keep telling us
    do not exist.
    
    Personally Mark,  I have little regard for yor clear lack of
    understanding around the bombing of Commuter Stations.  I can only
    asume that that the garbage you print you now believe in .  This is
    sad.
    
    a) It proves what I always suspected.  You have absolutely no
    understanding of how people view the current situation in NI.  Or to be
    more accurate Eastern NI (according to your note)
    
    b) It also shows what you and you pals have not realised.  We here in
    the UK are living on Planet Earth.  We don't always commute.  We can
    manage to work away from London, and as I am at present doing so.
    
    c) Please can you print the number of CNN so that I can ask them about
    the politician who's nam you forgot.  I personally want to speak to
    them.
    
    d) Glad to hear you admit that railway stations are now legitimate
    military targets.  This proves once and for all what I and other wanted
    to you to say.
    
    So to get your politics into perspective what you are saying. (taken
    from a selection of your notes)
    
    The IRA do not intentionally bomb civilian targets.  (exclude chip
    shops, railway stations, shopping centres.  These are all accidents. 
    Presumably down to poor map reading.
    
    You have no desire to visit the country that you so knowledgeably tell
    us all about.
    
    Your main concern is getting stuck in the Boston Trafic.
    
    Pray tell me Mark. What happens when you get p*ssed off with life in
    Boston ??
    
    When was the last time you experienced a bomb !! and how much fun did
    it give you.??
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

    
    Oooh, a letter from Slick's word processing dept. How terribly proud
    you must be. As for the Sinn Fein ghoul, if his vituperation actually
    meant anything he might add a bit of explanation as to why his brave
    freedom fighters stuck a 1000 lb van bomb next to a primary school in
    Belfast sometime in the last 24 hrs - safely defused thank God. 
    

    Mr Eastland
    
    Sure you know that Mark H's Barve Freedom Fighters consider Primary
    Schools (these are schools for infants Mark H) are now military
    targets.  

Would Mark H care to explain what the British would stand to gain by preventing
peace?  Have vast quantities of oil been discovered in the Shankill Road
perhaps?  Maybe it is the prospect of the withdrawl of the City of London
free demolition service?  Or fear of disruption of the British Rail track
replacement programme?

Dave

>    Well Mark H
>    
>    Looks like your president has joined the conspiracy don't you think ??
>    
>    How can he support the efforts of John Major, which you keep telling us
>    do not exist.

  I believe that he is misguided in thinking that John Major wants
  anything other than a victory over the IRA.  I posted his response
  to me, so that all could see where he stands.  I also understand
  that as powerful as the U.S. is, our ability is still limited when
  a major liar (er I mean player) like Britain has no real intention
  of seeking peace.
  On the postive side, at least Clinton phoned Major and tried to
  urge him to really seek a peaceful solution.

>    
>    a) It proves what I always suspected.  You have absolutely no
>    understanding of how people view the current situation in NI.  Or to be
>    more accurate Eastern NI (according to your note)

  I think north east Ireland is probably more appropriate to
  anyone who has ever looked at a map.

>    
>    c) Please can you print the number of CNN so that I can ask them about
>    the politician who's nam you forgot.  I personally want to speak to
>    them.

     Try information (areacode - 555 - 1212), CNN is located in Atlanta.
     The program was Larry King Live.     


                               Mark

 re. .8
>Would Mark H care to explain what the British would stand to gain by preventing
>peace? 

 I don't think the British would gain anything by preventing peace.
 On the other hand, the British government might gain Unionist support.
 They might also feel they can stall the breakup of the United Kingdom,
 as Wales and Scotland attempt to leave.  But probably most of all,
 they can keep the image of the old "stiff-upper lip" when faced with
 opposition, and continue to live in the old days of the empire.

> Have vast quantities of oil been discovered in the Shankill Road
>perhaps? 

 The oil was discovered in another colony, the Malvinas.


                          Mark

 re. .9
   That was Cross-fire, rather than Larry King Live.

        Mark,
        
        In the UK we are not all as stupid as you think.
        
        As far as I am aware area code 555 doesn't exist. That is why 
        99% of all telephone numbers given in American films have an 
        area code of 555. Quite amusing when you sea a sheet of paper 
        listing lots of telephone numbers for all over the USA all with 
        the same area code   :-)
        
        
        For the NI record. Major and and the Irish PM, sorry forgotten 
        his name are going to make a joint announcement today. It looks 
        like a peace accord by Christmas. 
        
        Merry Christmas,
        Simon

    
    Mark H.
    
    Some facts you may like to ponder.
    
    Reynolds and Major are meeting in Downing Street today and an
    announcement of an agreement is expected today. So that blows your
    theory out of the water.
    
    Not only are the Nationalists in the minority in NI, they are also in
    the minority in Ireland as a whole; by a long way.
    
    Sinn Fein has no elected member of parliament in NI and are therefore,
    lucky to be involved in any peace talks at all.
    
    Scotland and Wales are NOT attempting to split from the United Kingdom.
    They, like many nations, have their nationalists/republicans;what they
    do want is control over their own affairs, ie; the right to govern
    themselves free from the obvious bias which is imposed by London. Which
    is how it ought to be in NI.
    
    The IRA unlike the UVF or UFF or any other of the other Irish mafios do
    take their fight out of their own backyard which as everyone knows,
    except Mark Holohan, means killing anyone; catholics, protestants and
    children alike with their indiscriminate bombing campaign. A campaign
    which has no majority support in Ireland.
    
    Clinton's reply says absolutely nothing about his governments
    intentions in Ireland. It's a typical piece of wooly mouthed political
    speak.
    
    Finally, Gerry Adams is probably correct in saying that the British
    government lied about contact with the IRA, be that as it is, you can
    hardly blame governments for keeping contact with terrorists quiet.
    Even the squeaky clean American's understand that one only too well.
    
    Bill
    
    

    re .12                                     
    
    Small nit -- 555 is not an area code but the exchange code used
    exclusively by the US phone companies for their own lines. To dial
    directory enquiries ("Information") within the US, you dial the area code
    (e.g. 617 for Boston), then 555 1212.  Most other area code+555-nnnn
    numbers are bogus, however, and are quoted on films, TV etc to stop crank 
    callers.
    
    However, you can't use (area code) + 555 1212  from outside the US. You
    can phone international directory enquiries, or cheaper than that, 
    CNN does however have a London office that is helpful -- my wife
    called them once enquiring about a programme.
    
    John 

    
    How on Earth are nationalists a minority in Ireland?
    
    Denis.

>Author:      KOALA::HOLOHAN     
>Number:      1295.3       Created: 14-Dec-1993 08:55am           Replies: 15
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  re. .2
>  Sorry your attention span limits itself to notes of
>  less than three lines.

This just confirms what I thought - You have dificulty understanding what 
is written by others.  Lets look at the evidence.

a) I come here to work. Mu noting activity is (largely) restricted to 
lunchtime. i.e 45 minutes.  You interpret this as a limited attention span.
Let's just say my attention is not so much limited, it's just focused 
elsewhere - work.

b) You refuse to post your interpretations of other peoples work that you 
have cross-posted.  the phrase "blind leading the blind" springs to mind.


Anyway, if anyone has access to a propaganda-free radio/TV or whatever, 
could they post details of the joint Reynolds/Major statement.

MR

    Re .10
    
    Oil was also discovered in another colony :- Scotland and that is one
    of the reasons that the English colonialists refuse to set Scotland
    free.
    
    England does not have a good record in "freeing" it's colonies without
    bloodshed.
    
    I believe that this is the best chance for peace in NI that we have
    seen for many years but I think the timing has more to do with the fact
    that the catholics will outnumber the protestants (or Nationalists
    outnumber the loyalists which ever is correct) by the year 2010 than
    any sudden desire for peace by the British Government.
    
    Eddie.
    

    
    
    Does anyone have info on the announcement that was made earlier today,
    in reference to Northern Ireland ??
    
    
    
    keVin
    

    Folks
    
    I called CNN's London Office.  They are researching the name and I will
    update you as soon they get back to me.
    
    Mark H.
    
    Please update us all on the IRA's latest Peace Initiative (1000 lbs of
    semtex) outside a childrens school.  Please enlighten us all as to how
    this brings about peace.  Please try and retsict yourself to answering
    the question and not going into waffle mode about how the British
    Goverment wears the wrong colour of shoes etc.
    
    good to see that not only did John Wayn win the war but Bill Clinton is
    now sorting out a peace process.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce
    
    

    
    Denis,
    They are in the minority on this earth at least!
    
    That is not an assumption, indeed it was only guessed at until recent
    independant polls in the Republic and in the north. I don't recall the
    exact figures but they are in this conference somewhere.
    
    BTW, i hope you understand that by Nationalist i meant
    Republican/united Irish voters. Not, as an analogy, I am very
    nationalistic about Scotland but would not consider myself a
    republican. Yet!! Although if I'd lived in Scotland under Tory rule for
    the past twelve years then i'm sure i might be thinking differently.
    
    Bill

    Hmmm Interesting 
    
    I called CNN they gave me their international number.010 1404827 1500
    
    I spoke to their public information office.
    
    They went away and looked at all their guest lists going back to the
    beginning of October for the Cross-Fire show.  Well looks like they are
    in collusion with Mr Holohan.  They could find no record of any
    British/English/Irish/Scottish Female member of Parliment being a guest
    on the show.
    
    Please don't bother us anymore Mark.  Your Credibility really is below
    zero.  
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

	LONDON (UPI) -- British Prime Minister John Major and Irish Prime
Minister Albert Reynolds signed a joint declaration Wednesday aimed at
securing peace in Northern Ireland by offering the political wing of the
IRA an opportunity to join negotiations to end 25 years of communal
strife.
	The joint declaration signed by the two leaders would allow Sinn
Fein, the Irish Republican Army's political wing, to join in preliminary
negotiations with the British government three months after the IRA
agrees to end its violent campaign in the province.
	``If the provisionals will end and renounce violence for good, the
British government is prepared to enter into preliminary, exploratory
dialogue with Sinn Fein within three months when cessation of violence
has been clearly established,'' Major told a news conference.
	The talks would pave the way for Sinn Fein to join multi-party
negotiations on the future of the Northern Ireland. But Major warned
that he could not ensure the declaration would lead to peace. He said
the IRA had to renounce violence first.
	``We have an option for peace,'' Major said. ``Whether that option is
picked up lies with the men of violence and not with us...I simply say,
the option is there in a way it hasn't been before. I hope they'll have
the wit to take it.''
	``I think today's declaration is the first step...of putting together
a framework that can produce a process that will lead to peace,''
Reynolds told the news conference.
	``We've had 25 years of violence,'' he said. ``Violence has not
succeeded. It has shown to be futile...Surely after 25 years it is time
to look back at the record of success or failure and I suggest that it
hasn't improved the position of either community.''
	The Rev. Ian Paisley, leader of the hardline loyalist Democratic
Unionist Party, denounced the joint agreement even before it had been
formally released, delivering a sharply worded letter to No. 10 Downing
Street where Major and Reynolds were meeting. Paisley then read his
letter to the press.
	``You have sold Ulster to buy off the fiendish Republican scum,'' he
said. ``You will learn in a bitter school that all appeasement of these
monsters is self-destructive.''
	Major said later that Paisley was angry because of the IRA killing of
a policeman in Fivemiletown in Northern Ireland over the weekend. He
said the joint declaration was aimed at ending such violence.
	``My message to those who are not yet convinced is they should read
the declaration. It really is time for Ireland, politicians and people
alike, not just to look back at their history but to look forward to
their future. And that is what I hope they will do.''
	Reynolds and Major both argued the declaration does not remove
anyone's political rights and remains true to the principles on Northern
Ireland supported by their respective governments.
	The declaration said any decision about the future of the province,
whether it unites with Ireland or remains in the United Kingdom, would
have to be decided with the consent of a majority of the citizens of
Northern Ireland.
	The declaration also hints that Reynolds will consider seeking
constitutional changes to eliminate any barries to the negotiations on
the future of the province. Loyalists have demanded the Irish
constitution be amended to end Dublin's claim of sovereignty over
Northern Ireland.

        Thanks for posting that Mark,
        
        It is a good start. Still a long way to go but a good start.
        
        Simon

    
    Nice one,
    I hope that the IRA have the good sense not to be drawn into
    retaliation when the Loyalists provoke them, which i feel may well
    happen.
    
    Bill

    
    Brendan O'Leary of London U says the history of NI is littered with
    false dawns..
    

    The BBC world service discussion on this made it seem rather involved.
    Somehow the challenge was to come up with wording that simultaneously
    provides for determination by the people of NI as to their future
    while also providing for determination by the island of Ireland as a
    whole, in the hopes that this will appease the IRA. I don't pretend
    at this stage to understand how they can manage to do both. I also
    heard a Ulster Unionist MP on the BBC talk about the working document
    being as much a restatement of the problems as a solution, and Rev Ian
    was yelling outside no 10 this morning denouncing it, according to
    Prof. Brendan O'Leary who spoke on both NBC and on the BBC today. 
    

 I guess I must have missed something in the joint declaration.
 Where did the British agree to renounce violence? 
 Will British soldiers stop shooting and harrassing the nationalist
 community for the next three months to prove they are
 serious about peace?
 Will British security forces now on trial for murder, be found
 guilty and appropriately sentenced if they are really guilty?

 Most importantly, shouldn't the status of the Ireland, only change
 when a majority of the people of Ireland decide it should change?
 Why is the status of north east Ireland determined by a false
 majority?  

                        Mark

    
    .. and of course, will the IRA stop planting 1,000 lb bombs near
    Protestant schools. Don't forget that  ..
    

 re. .28

 If the IRA agree to a cease-fire they will keep their word.
 The British on the other hand have a history of lies, and
 broken promises.  Anyone who puts their faith in a piece
 of British paper will be on the losing end of the British
 stick.

 It will take British deeds to prove they are serious, not
 British words which have always been lie upon lie.

                Mark

 > If the IRA agree to a cease-fire they will keep their word.
 
Of course they will. And Father Christmas really exists.

Dave

This article is from An Phoblacht/Republican News
12/09/93 issue


Cynical British tactics

BY HILDA McTHOMAS

SINCE LAST SEPTEMBER the Hume/Adams initiatives has hardly left the front
pages of the Irish newspapers. Aside from its impact on the Irish and British
political establishments, one of its achievements has been the widening of the
debate about a peace process and how the various parties to the conflict have
defined themselves in relation to it.

One of the clearest contributions to that debate in the mainstream press
appeared last weekend in the Dublin newspaper, the Sunday Business Post, where
a 'special correspondent' outlined current British policy aims. They deserved
quoting:

''1. To portray John Major and Patrick Mayhew as reasonable and flexible men,
acing as honest brokers in the attempt to find peace: for the British it is
imperative that this impression is driven home in North America and mainland
Europe. It hardly matters at all what Irish people - Protestant or Catholic,
nationalist or unionist - think of these people.

''2. To maintain the support of James Molyneaux and the Official Unionists, by
offering them practical concessions at Westminster and within Northern Ireland
while refusing absolutely to make any fundamental concessions on issues of
importance to Dublin, to Hume or Sinn Fein.

''3. To drive a wedge, if possible, between Hume and Adams.

''4. Failing this, to drive a wedge, if necessary, between the Dublin
government and Hume.

''5. To place the blame on a continuation of the violence on what they call
the ''leaders of the Provisional movement''.

''6. To employ the extraordinary degree of influence which the British can
exert on the UFF, UVF and Ulster Resistance and the knowledge they possess of
the operations of those organisations to best advantage.''

The writer adds another aim, which is to use agents and paid informers to
destabilise and ultimately ''liquidate all republican organisations''.
There is very little in the history of the last few months which would
disprove this analysis. It may well make depressing reading, but since last
September the British government's whole thrust has been directed at resisting
the mounting pressure to embark on a real peace process.

The patronising comments towards John Hume, the outburst by Major in
Westminster that talking to republicans would ''turn this stomach'', the
denial by the British government that it knew anything of the existence, let
alone the contents, of the Hume/Adams proposals, their insistence on
portraying the restarting of the twice failed inter-party talks as the only
reasonable way forward, may well appear now as so much hypocritical rhetoric.

But they were designed, at the time, to isolate republicans, to marginalise
anyone who would talk to them, and to embarrass the Dublin government in
distancing itself from the Irish peace initiative.

Collusion between the British military machine and the loyalists has been well
documented. The leaking of RUC files to the UDA and UVF continues to this day
this week for example people living in the Twinbrook and Poleglass areas of
West Belfast areas were informed their files had gone missing and were in the
hands of loyalists. And in the same way that individual cases of repression,
once they become known, bring fear to the whole community in which these
individuals live - a human rights activist once called it the ''penumbra of
repression'' - attacks by loyalist murder squads with the back-up of the
British state terrorise the whole nationalist community. But the collusion
extends beyond the operational level onto the political.

Terrorising the nationalist community, the British government hopes, might
force them to put pressure on the IRA to retaliate, thus deflecting it from
its main objective if it does, or exposing it to criticism from its support
base if it doesn't. But it might also force them to lower their political
demands and settle for much less than national self-determination. It assists
the British in portraying the conflict as a sectarian war. It gives military
clout to the 'unionist veto' by hinting that, should the British grant
nationalist demands, there would be a 'loyalist backlash', possibly far worse
than the current one.

The threat inherent in the upsurge of loyalist attacks has been unashamedly
used by the British government, particularly by the RUC, to put pressure on
Dublin. Throughout the year a number of RUC briefings to the media hinted at
possible loyalist bombings in the South. This was mentioned in the RUC annual
report for 1992, launched in the summer. Last Summer, Chief Constable Hugh
Annesley made a public declaration on the subject. It provoked an angry
reaction from Dublin Foreign Affairs minister Dick Spring, who complained that
such information, if true, should not have been communicated to the Dublin
government via the media. This was a clear example of the British government
using loyalist violence for political ends.

British strategy over the last 20 years has been directed at stabilising the
Six Counties by strengthening middle-class parties and enlisting the Dublin
government's support in the repression of the republican struggle. History has
shown the British that they did not actually need to give very much to Irish
nationalists to keep the Dublin government in tow.This strategy became more
difficult to operate when Sinn Fein entered the electoral scene. Hence the
attempts of the British to exclude, censor and marginalise Sinn Fein. Today
the British are in a quandary, as Sinn Fein has succeeded in launching its
peace strategy with John Hume, and as a result has moved centre stage.

This has increased the pressure on the British to grant Irish nationalists
their demands, or say why they won't. They have to justify their continued
presence by saying that they have ''no selfish strategic or economic reasons''
for being here. They are couching their declarations in democratic speak,
talking of the right of the people of the Six Counties to determine their own
future. They are retreating behind the 'unionist veto' as the reason why they
have to stay. Or, to quote Randolph Churchill, they are ''playing the Orange
card''. Backed up, of course, by the guns of the UDA and the UVF.

The British have analysed the political landscape in the 26 Counties and found
that not all southern parties are equally welcoming of the Hume/Adams
initiative,that they would not all share the view that unionism, as an
ideology, is a major obstacle to peace, and that while unionists must be part
of any discussion on the future of Ireland, the unionist veto had to be faced
down.

As the Dublin government prepares to meet with the British government twice
before Christmas, Irish nationalists have the right to expect that the
overwhelming desire for peace and national unity will find a strong voice in
these discussions.

    Remember Home Rule and what happened to it. I would not trust the
    British. They sold the Cossacks out after WWII, the sold Poland out
    before WWI, they sold out the Greeks during the civil war there etc etc
    etc.....
    
    As long as Major relies on the Unionists to pass legislation, beware,
    history has shown that NO British politician is to be trusted under
    these circumstances. 
    
    Wait until 2010 and the majority will speak, the Nationalist will
    outnumber the loyalist community unless the killing continues of
    course.
    
    I wish to God that reasonable people in the 2 communities could see
    that nobody is gaining from this terrible bloodshed. The time has come
    to tell the British that the (2 communities) people of Ireland want an
    end to the occupation of the south eastern corner of Ireland.
    

    
    Name a great power that hasn't sold _lots_ of people out. The most
    recent was the US sellout of the Kurds and Marsh Shiites. As for
    Poland, I was under the apprehension that WW2 was declared when it was
    invaded? Nice to have another Brit-hater rejoin the discussion by the way.
    

  re. .33 Eastland

  It amazes me that an obvious US-hater like yourself
  still manages to live here year after year.  Wouldn't
  you be happier in, say, North Korea?

                  Mark

    
    How comical you are, Holohan. I don't have a record of anti-US
    venom, and am after all, a citizen by choice.  
      

    reply to:   1295.35 by NOVA::EASTLAND 
    
    �How comical you are, Holohan. I don't have a record of anti-US
    �venom, and am after all, a citizen by choice.  
    
    As someone who knows nothing about you except what you enter into this
    notesfile, I can say that it is clearly apparent that you have an
    anti-American bias.
    
    Also, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling Mr.
    Clinton names in this public forum.  (Actually, I wish everyone would
    stop calling other people names.)  What you think of him and what you
    call him privately are your own business.  But don't do it in the
    Celtic notesfile.
    
    --Jay

   So you mean it's ok to call British citizens all the names under the sun
   in this notesfile but we can't call Slick Willie what he is? You'd better
   talk to Mark about that. He thinks censorship is wrong. 

   As for anti-US bias, you clearly are talking out of your hat. Show me
   the anti-US bias for a start, then we can talk about where you went
   wrong.
    

     .. and, to help you along, here are the notes where I mention the US.
     I hope I got them all. I'll be interested to see where I am guilty
     of Anti-American sentiments. 
    
     1238.2, 1245.3, 1245.11, 1251.9, 1251.56, 1259.7, 1259.9, 1259.54
     1277.5, 1278.100, 74.89, 1179.2, 1251.21, 1251.60, 1259.1

    

>    Wait until 2010 and the majority will speak, the Nationalist will
>    outnumber the loyalist community unless the killing continues of
>    course.
 
It is by no means certain that nationalists will outnumber loyalists by 2010.
Firstly, this assumes that most Catholics are also nationalists, which may or
may not be the case. Secondly, in the last survey a significant number
of people (10%) refused to disclose their religion, making the figures
uncertain. The percentage of people declaring themselves Catholics actually
declined (ditto Protestants). Thirdly, trends in population movement may change.
Finally, even if this happened, it would be about another 15 years before
there would be sufficient people of voting age.

BTW, judging from an item heard on radio last night, the people of West Belfast
do not share Mark H's touching faith in the IRA.

Dave

    
    Indeed it is by no means certain that nationalists will outnumber
    loyalists in 25 years. However, a look at the election results
    since the early seventies shows a steady decrease in the unionist
    percentage of the vote.
    
    Denis.

    Hey Guys
    
    Lighten.  You all know that if Holohead says the IRA will have a
    ceasefire you can trust his word that they will stick to it.  I mean he
    told us about British Politicians on CNN and we all fell for that one
    didn't we.  He has answered our questions about the IRA's latest peace
    intiative 1000lb bomb outside of a primary school.
    
    Now it appears we have somebody getting upset because Ole Bill Cittoff
    is getting some stick.  This has got to be the joke of the conference. 
    Apart from Holoheads Pal telling us about the accidental targetting of
    civilians (and Mark H was the only human on this planet who fell for
    that line)
    
    Now that s serious peace initiative is on the table,  our learned
    colleagues (presumably lost for words) start to tell us about Poles and
    Cossacks.  Similar to Holoheads earlier response to a NI Resident
    insulting his integrity by reffering to his own knowledge of the game of
    Polo.
    
    Consider this before calling others for selling their or others
    Countries.  Holohead was Born in the UK.  Got out at aged fourtenn and
    has since then continually mocked the people of his home Country  with
    sweeping generalisations that leave you breathless.
    
    The IRA have ben invited to prove that they are serious in wanting an
    end to this mess,  all parties want the violence to end.  Strangely so
    far it appears that the IRA have remained silent.  
    
    No Doubt Mr Holohead will tell us that via his totally un-biased press
    agants he has gleaned a story of some horror killing that only he knows
    about.  I know who I would believe..
    
    Bruce
    

    PEACE now lies in the hands of the IRA & UVF & UFF. Lets hope they
    give it a chance. Even Mr Hume supports this inititive and Sinn Fein
    are to discuss it. Lets not let this chance slip away because if it
    does the innocent people of N. Ireland will be the ones to suffer
    not the people that reject it.
    
    Happy Christmas & A Peaceful New Year to everybody.
    
    P.s. I'm off to greener pastures tomorrow, so good luck and GOD Bless.
    
    Stephen
    

    re.32
    Never read so much crap in my life, this sort of off-the-cuff statement
    is one reason why you part-time debaters ought to put up or shut up.
    
    Mr H, there is no requirement for the British to renounce viloence
    here's why,
    The army has heavily armed patrols continually in the catholic areas,
    they are there for lots of reasons, but and this is of course
    speculation because none of us can prove it, but two main reasons must
    be for the protection of the locals against loyalist hit men (no i'm
    not joking) and because the biggest movement of the beloved Armalite
    and Semtex must be in those areas.
    The government in itself does not aid and abett terrorism but i am
    quite prepared to believe that the RUC does. But what do you do? Get
    rid of the police force and the army and have a free for all on the
    Falls Road? Before you go off on one your maniacal tirades again about
    the British army collusion etc etc, all i'm saying is that it is not
    government's policy to attack Catholics in NI.
    
    Oh i nearly forgot, this mysterious 2010 figure thats banded about,
    this is another misguided assumption which presupposes that all
    Catholics are Nationalists - more nonsense!
    
    I hope i'm wrong but i can't see any of the bigots on either side
    signing any pledge or pact to resolve the violence

    
    >be for the protection of the locals against loyalist hit men
    >(no i'm not joking)
    
    Then you are surely naive. How do you think loyalist hit men
    move into nationalist areas, murder the unfortunate catholic or
    two and then move out again with the greatest of ease. Where
    are the SAS ambushes for loyalist murderers? The answer is simple.
    They are provided with information on the whereabouts of security
    force patrols before they carry out a hit. They know they will be 
    safe. They have contacts and sympathisers in the RUC and UDR.
    
    Denis.

    > They have contacts and sympathisers in the RUC and UDR.
    
 If the loyalists need the collusion of the security forces to carry out
attacks, how does the IRA do it?

Dave  

 If the British see a danger of Nationalists out-numbering Unionist
 in occupied north east Ireland, they can always fall back on their
 old stand-by, and re-partition their partition.

 re. .43
 Bill,
   The British need to renounce violence also, because they are the
 ones behind it all.  I suggest you try reading a report from
 Amnesty International on British human rights violations in
 north east Ireland.  They have documented proof of British Army
 collusion with Loyalist terror gangs.  Even today the British
 security forces distribute hit lists to their loyalist buddies
 of folks they would like to see murdered.  Since this has gone
 on for so long, and attempts to report on it have been covered
 up by the British government (the Stalker affair for instance),
 I'd suggest that it is British government policy to murder, marginalize,
 and terrorize the Nationalists in north east Ireland.

                         Mark

 P.S.
  Bruce, thanks, I was a bit worried I wasn't getting to you.
  If I manage to give you a coronary or something, do be a
  good lad, and let me know.

    
    well unfortunately Denis, you've scored an own goal.
    The loyalists can get away with it because of collusion between the RUC
    and themselves, which is what i said.
    The army cannot have a role in it or prove that they will just as
    willingly fire on both sides,,, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THERE.
    
    Its not just the politicians that are politically deviant is it!
    
    Bill

    Re .44
    
    Denis,
    
    Come now, the loyalist paramilitaries don't need patrol movement info
    to operate. How do the IRA manage it? By observation and stealth. I
    don't believe  that the UK government as represented by John Major has
    a genocidal vendatta in the North. Certainly there are elements within
    the RUC and the UDR (haven't they been disbanded?) that are
    anti-Nationalist, but to conjure an orchestrated genocide out of
    isolated incidents is a bit rich. Using that logic you can say that all
    Gardai (Police in the Republic) are IRA sympathisers, since there have
    been a number of Gardai in recent years found providing info to the IRA. 
    
    As for the Nationalists been in the majority by 2010, I would'nt hold
    my breath. The Irish Times opinion poll of a couple of weeks ago had
    only 32% of Catholics wanting a united Ireland. This fact alone should
    convince the IRA to go with the Reynolds/Major offer of last week. It
    would be a great opportunity for the Nationalist movement to move onto
    some higher moral ground. 
    
    I have no doubt that loyalist paramilitaries will continue attacks on
    the Catholics of the North, but for the IRA to retaliate would be to
    blow away a chance for settlement for many years to come. It's time to put
    pride away and do what's best for the majority of Catholics in the
    North.
    
    Joe.
                                                                           

    re .46
    
    Just one correction, Stalker was a policeman, investigating the RUC.
    Not the army.
    
    You have to be careful when you say security forces, it just won't do
    to wrap them in the same blanket.
    The RUC are predominantly Protestant Irishmen, the army are
    predominantly not, therefore i very much doubt whether they really care
    much about one side or the other frankly.

    
    Own goal? The UDR is a regiment of the army. Anyway, as I asked you
    before, where are the SAS ambushes for loyalist paras? Many republican
    paras have been killed in such ambushes yet no such treatment for the
    loyalists.
    
    Re .45 (Dave, I think)
    
    How do the IRA do it? Well I don't really know. But as the IRA usually
    target the security forces I would say there is more risk involved
    than for the UVF/UDA. This risk varies from very low to very high.
    A very low risk would entail the killing of an off duty member of
    the security forces in a remote rural area and I imagine a high
    risk would be an attack on an armed security force patrol. 
    This is my opinion based on books I have read about the conflict.
    I would recommend (as I have done in the past) reading a trilogy of
    books by Martin Dillon. They are
    
    The Shankill Butchers,
    The Dirty War
    Michael Stone, Portrait of an Assassin.
    
    Denis.

    
    By the way Joe, I was not trying to conjure up an orchestrated
    campaign of genocide by theHMG and I'm sorry if that's the impression
    I gave. However, if you think that loyalists don't operate with
    knowledge supplied by elements within the police and army, then as the
    yanks would say, I have a bridge you might be intersted in buying.
    
    Denis.
    

    
    O.K. Denis point taken but i don't know the answer to your question.
    But let's put it this way, who do the SAS see as their enemy?
    And i've asked this before, didn't get an answer, so i'll ask it again
    Why so much amazement that the UDR,RUC,SAS,LOYALISTS et al have at some
    point all been involved in collusion, are they not on the same side?
    
    It's a bad day today, i seem to be missing all of this!!

    
    The security forces see the IRA as their enemy. However, are you
    suggesting that law and order and the protection of citizens apply
    to one community only? I doubt that you do but to many northern 
    nationalists this is the way things are.
    
    Denis.

 Mayhew is now saying that the "cease-fire" deal means the IRA must turn
 over all their weapons.  He's got to be kidding. This is a call for 
 surrender, not a cease-fire.  Will the British Security Forces turn over
 all their weapons?  Unbelievable.  This further goes to prove that
 the British do not seriously want to see peace in north east Ireland.
 
 Of course, there is also no demand that the loyalist terror squads turn
 over their weapons.  Like I said, anyone who makes the mistake of trusting
 the British, or putting faith in a British proposal, stands the serious
 risk of getting the shaft.

 The IRA would have to be stupid to give up their weapons.  I'm surprised
 the British haven't added another condition that the IRA all march themselves
 into POW camps to prove they are "serious" about peace.


                       Mark

    As for the Brits not leaving colonies until they get bombed out, 
    if we can leave aside the issue of whether NI is a colony or not 
    given that the occupants have been living there long before Americans
    peacefully resettled the original inhabitants of this continent (and
    a good few hundred years after the glorious removal of the Mexican
    invader from Texas), the proposition is too simplistic. Britain is
    a pragmatic nation. Since the war, there has been a gradual retreat
    from the empire, as Britain's military power waned relative to the
    rest of the world and as it became obvious that empires were part of
    the old order. But where there was vital strategic interest, Britain
    never let go unless absolutely forced to by an opposing power in the
    field. There are indications that before the fall of the USSR, Ireland
    was seen as a strategic back door, as it was during WW2, and Britain 
    was not about to risk throwing the island into political disarray
    by moving out and leaving the Unionists and Nationalists to duke it
    out. Just as Churchill felt London would survive the blitzkrieg, 
    successive govts felt Britain could survive the IRAs spasmodic 
    bombings. and when compared to the uncertainties of a destabilized
    Ireland, probably saw that as the greater risk. One reason everyone
    now could talk, is that even with the advent of Zhirinovsky's fascists
    in Russia, the threat of a return to cold war confrontation is much
    reduced. 
 
    

    
    Btw, on the BBC this morning, it was stated that the IRA was NOT
    expected to turn over their weapons as a prerequisite for Sinn Fein
    joining talks. They were expected to renonce violence for 3 mths prior
    to talks, at which talks the issue of weaponry would be discussed
    

Joint Declaration between British and Irish Governments (main points)
    
Uphold the democratic wish of a greater number of the people of NI on whether 
they prefer to support the Union or a sovereign united Ireland.

The Brisish have no selfish strategic or economic interest in NI

The role of the British will be to encourage, facilitate and enable the 
achievement of agreement

Such agreement may, as of right, take the form of agreed structures for the 
island as a whole, including a united Ireland achieved by peaceful means

It is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the
two parts respectively, to exercise their right of self-determination on the
basis of consent, freely given, North and South, to bring about a united
Ireland, if that is their wish

The democratic right of self-determination by the people of Ireland as a whole
must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent 
of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

 re. .56
  Sure the BBC says one thing, Patrick Mayhew says another.
  This is another example of British lies upon lies.
                    Mark

    
    Mark, I'm not sure you have it right. May I suggest you verify what
    you heard before automatically assuming dastardly deeds (I know, I 
    know it's hard where the evil Brits are concerned).
    
    best wishes
    

re. .59


 RTw  12/15 1931  IRISH -2 LONDON (REOPENS)

     Britain's Northern Ireland minister, Sir Patrick Mayhew,
indicated that the IRA would be expected to hand over its huge
arsenal of weapons following a ceasefire before its political
arm, Sinn Fein would be accepted into the political process.
      "If they hold on to arms, if you know they have got them,
then quite patently they are not giving up (their violent
campaign) for good -- that is patently obvious," Mayhew told a
British Broadcasting Corporation discussion programme.
      He said there would be no place at the negotiating table
for Sinn Fein following a temporary ceasefire, which would hold
"the threat of starting again unless you fall in with our
wishes."
  REUTER

   
                  Here is an example of British lie, upon British lie.
                  It must hurt for them to tell the truth.
                  
                                  Mark

    
    I think you better wait for a clarification, as I heard the opposite
    from the same BBC. 
    

                     <<< Note 1295.43 by KERNEL::BARTHUR >>>
                            -< End to the Bullshit >-
    
    > re.32
    > Never read so much crap in my life, this sort of off-the-cuff statement
    > is one reason why you part-time debaters ought to put up or shut up.
    
    Qualify your statement, maybe the Irish history you learn never covered
    this.
    
    

    
    Maybe the history you learn never covered the declaration of WW2 upon
    the German invasion of Poland? Mmm?. and please, dispense with the
    4 letter words, huh?
    

    
    re.53 Unfortunately, the Nationalists do see the security forces as
    protecting one side only for all the reasons that we know about.
    But my point is that I do not believe that the army, as in British
    regular army, does anything other than try to prevent terrorism on both
    sides. You have already pointed out how the loyalists can achieve an
    attack with impunity.
    
    Bill

                     <<< Note 1295.43 by KERNEL::BARTHUR >>>
                            -< End to the Bullshit >-
    
    Never heard what happened to the Cossacks who trusted the Brits and
    handed in their arms, they got a free train ride to death camps in
    Stalin's Russia.
    

    
    So what.. read any French history books, seen any Goyas lately?
     

    
    Yes Rene i have read all about it, they were used as pawns in the great
    Anglo/American carve up at the end of the war. But what happened almost
    50 years ago has no relevance now, neither does events from 303 years
    ago or do you want me to explain that one as well?
    
    Bill

    The more general point is that harping on about Perfidious Albion
    is totally hypocritical given how much the IRA values innocent human
    life. The other point is that Britain, just like other European 
    powers, has a history of blood, which means just about nothing when it
    comes to discussing a peace settlement, but is merely a way for those
    who detest Britain to avoid the responsibility for peace by laying 
    on the hate rhetoric.
  
    Your beloved IRA won't give up their Semtex and guns for nothing,
    don't worry - and I imagine they can always 'find' some more if the
    occasion arises..
    

    
    
    I doubt if the IRA will give up arms, given the lesson of 1969
    when catholics were under attack by loyalists with no weapons
    to defend themselves.
    
    Denis.

>Author:      ISEQ::DODONNELL     Going, going.......
>Number:      1295.70      Created: 20-Dec-1993 04:35am           Replies: 70
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    
>    I doubt if the IRA will give up arms, given the lesson of 1969
>    when catholics were under attack by loyalists with no weapons
>    to defend themselves.
>    
>    Denis.


	Are you implying that the IRA are doing a good job of defending 
Catholics just now ?  I'd say it was the opposite.  We all know the 
Loyalists reaction to the Shankhill Rd bomb.  The longer the IRA continue
their campaign of violence, the more danger Catholics are in from Loyalist 
reprisals.  

	Sad.....but that's the way it is.

MR

    
    No Mark, I'm not saying that The IRA are doing a good job of defending
    nationalists now. However in the sixties the IRA sold off most of their 
    weapons (mostly to Welsh nationalists I believe) and when the pogroms
    started in 1969 the catholic communities had little or no weapons to 
    defend themselves. Who knows if catholics will be attacked on a large 
    scale again like 1969? It's a possibility and I doubt if catholics
    would want to be left without some weaponry to defend themselves if
    it does.
    
    Denis.

    This morning on London Broadcasting Corporation (LBC) News Talk there
    was a telephone interview with the Irish Chief Whip.  The chief
    Whip reported that the Irish PM has called for a de-milatarisation
    of NI. It appears that Sinn Fein's Jerry Adams  and Martin McGuiness have
    both said that in the event of a cessation of hostilities that they
    would not want an imedeate withdraw of British forces as they would fear
    there would be an escalation of violence. The Chief Whip said that as long
    as they were withdrawn within the lifetime of the present government that
    this would be ok, even if this was after 5, 6 or even 11 years.
    
    
    Happy new Year
    Simon

                                         National Hibernian Digest
                                               March-April 1994
                                                       by
                                                 James Mullin
                                             Pres S Jersey IAUC

The extremes to which thew British Government is willing to go to control
the information Americans receive about Northern Ireland was amply
demonstratyed at the American Bar Association meeting in Kansas City, MO on
February 4, 1994.

New Jersey Lawyer and ABA member Edmund E. Lynch arrived to address the ABA
Section on Individual Rights and Responsibilities when he was informed that
the British Embassy was attempting to block his speech. The British
Foreign Office claimed that this particular lawyer should not be allowed to
speak to members of his professionnal association without a British
representative present.

Fortunately, the president of the ABA, R. William Ide, III ruled that the
British request was without merit, and Lynch was allowed to deliver his
proposal concerning a pilot project for ABA trial observers in the courts
of Northern Ireland.

Lynch has brought the case of seven Ballymurphy boys to the attention of
the United States Congress. Twenty-two House and Senate members recently
signed letters of protest to Sir Patrick Mayhew, British Secretary of State
for Northern Ireland, protesting the treatment of the boys. They have been
held in Her Majesty's Prison on Crumlin Road, Belfast, for almost three
years without any credible evidence.

During his frequent visits to Northern Ireland, Lynch has established a
rapport with the British Chief Justice, the British Deputy Secretary of
State, the US ambassador to Northern Ireland, and the Chairman of the
Criminal Defense Bar.

In this country, he founded the Lawyers Alliance for Justice in Ireland. In
December, 1993 he went to the Executive office Building, adjacent to the
White House, and met with Dr. Jane Holl, Director of European Affairs for
the National Security Council, to discuss the Administration's visa denial
of Gerry Adams.

In a February 9 letter to the ABA President, Lynch thanked him for
defending the independence of the American Bar Association, and for
protecting the right to speak. Lynch offered to discuss the Northern
ireland justice system with a representative of the British government at a
future ABA meeting. He claimed in the letter that there is much for the
British government to explain. For example:

"Why is it that Amnesty International, the British Haldane Society of
Lawyers, the British National Council for Civil Liberties, Helsinki Watch,
the Northern ireland Committee on the Administration of Justice, the
European Court of Human Rights, and the New York-based Lawyers Committee
for Civil Rights have all concluded that the system of justice in the North
of Ireland is permeated by injustice and prejudicial disposition of
proceedings?"

Lynch's proposal for the Northern Ireland Project outlined the following  "
Areas of Concern:" Intimidation of Human Rights Lawyers, including the
assassination of Patrick Finucane, the strip-searching of women prisoners,
the denial of jury, the evisceration of the rules of evidence, and the loss
of the right to silence.

re: .63
    
>    Maybe the history you learn never covered the declaration of WW2 upon
>    the German invasion of Poland? Mmm?. and please, dispense with the
>    4 letter words, huh?

I'm afraid you are missing an important bit of History. Around that time
period there was a lot of talk of betrayal and incompetence that is largely
brushed under the carpet nowadays.

The Polish Govt. knew that there was a strong possibility of a German
invasion and that they were poorly prepared for it. They were aware of
British attempts to hold back that invasion by threats but that was not
what Poland wanted. The British have often made the mistake of assuming
that an enemy would not attack if they threatened to intervene. This
was repeated in Poland. On the other hand the Polish Govt. knew a German attack
was no idle threat. What they wanted was arms and British (and presumably
French) troops on Polish soil. 

The arms were badly needed. When Germany did invade the Polish Army had
to charge  tanks with cavalry on horseback. British soldiers were
needed. This was so that Germany could be left in no doubt whatsoever about
British intentions as they would have to engage British troops in order to
attack Poland.

No British troops came, Germany invaded and the rest is history. 
At this point Poland thought they had been betrayed by Britain. Britain
did live up their ultimatum but this was cold comfort in Poland, it was
too little too late.

Back to the present, would this ever happen in Ulster? Listen to Ian Paisley.
I don't know whether he is talking betrayal but he certainly does regard
the "Downing Street Accords" as a "sell out".

Mark 
  

    
    Thanks for the history lesson. You always manage to find an opportunity
    to bash Britain, don't you? Now it's for the whole sorry Munich policy
    and Churchill's wilderness years. What great country do you come from
    that faced up to the Nazis with any more exuberance or foresight, mmm?
    Stop grinding that axe and you may make more sense.
    

I'm not "bashing" anyone, just pointing out that there's an element
of truth in both points, (i.e. yours and Rene).

M

BRITAIN TOLD OF U.S.  CONCERN ON ULSTER BUILDUP

RTw  6/21/94 2:04 PM

    WASHINGTON, June 21 (Reuter) - President Clinton has told
 members of Congress that British officials had been advised
 of U.S. concern over a British military buildup in a Northern
 Ireland border town.
     In a letter made public Tuesday, Clinton also said that the
 issue of the appointment of a U.S. special envoy on the Irish
 conflict -- promised by Clinton in his election campaign --
 remained "under active review."      Members of the House of
 Representatives, including Ben Gilman of New York, the
 leading Republican on the Foreign Affairs Committee, wrote to
 Clinton in April asking for an inquiry into the "dramatic
 escalation" of British military activity in Northern Ireland.
     Almost 1,000 British troops had effectively taken over the
 town of Crossmaglen, "literally digging foxholes and trenches
 in residents' backyards and gardens," the letter said.
     The letter said the military escalation was incompatible with
 British protestations of peace and called on Britain to cease
 "these types of provocative military actions."
     The Irish Republican Army (IRA) has fought British rule of
 Northern Ireland for 25 years and its political arm, Sinn Fein, is
 currently weighing its response to an Anglo-Irish plan for
 peace.
     Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams told Irish radio Tuesday
 that the party's response to the initiative, which promises it a
 seat at peace talks in return for an end to the IRA war, would
 be made public shortly.
     Saying the peace process was at a critical turning point, the
 congressmen also urged Clinton to fulfil his campaign promise
 and name a special peace envoy.
     In reply Clinton, in a June 6 letter, said reinforcement of the
 base in response to IRA attacks had resulted in significant
 disturbance of Crossmaglen's civilian population and work
 was expected to continue for several months.
     "We have discussed your concern with British officials,
 noting the desirability of ensuring security in a way that is
 sensitive to the needs of the civilian population," the letter
 said.
     Clinton added: "We keep the issue of a U.S. envoy under
 active review."      The letter said, however, that the most
 constructive U.S. role was to support British-Irish efforts to
 revive talks and maintain the momentum for peace created by
 their joint declaration on the Irish conflict.

Re various

The British Government will not advance the peace process in Northern 
Ireland if it means upsetting the Unionists. The Government's 
majority in The House of Commons is just 6 so they need to be able to 
depend on the Unionist vote to force through bills. They are treading a fine 
line between testing the patience of the IRA and keeping the unionists on 
side.

They are playing with peoples lives here. The British Government is 
prepared to sacrifice the peace process for the sake of staying in power
for a few months longer.

I do not expect to see any further progress in the peace process until 
after the next British general election.

Eddie.
    

>I do not expect to see any further progress in the peace process until 
>after the next British general election.
    
    Sadly, I must concur with you, Eddie. Also, it looks like there
    will be a  return  to violence if the peace-process doesn't get
    underway before Christmas. Assuming that Prosident Clinton's
    visit produces no silver bullet, our best hope if for a British
    general election this year. Slim chances, you'll agree. How could
    we have thrown it all away?
    

    
    Yes not looking too good....unless something is sprung from the hat
    before Clinton leaves its looking pretty depressing...
          
    very heavy Dublin-london contact at the moment and I'm sure for next
    hrs or so...
    
    Mick
     

    
    ..looks like something is springing from SOME hat.
    
    Major and bruton to meet in london within the hour...some agreement has
    been reached....no details emerging yet

    I have to say again, why does it always have to be the British
    Government that is played as the ogre? Isn't the refusal of the IRA and
    Loyalist terrorists to decommission their arma just as stubborn,
    obstinate and peace-destroying? *ALL* sides must compromise, and
    costantly trying to pretend one side has the moral high-ground, and the
    other is a rat doesn't help things one tiny bit. Actually, it just
    prolongs it.
    
    Laurie.

>    I have to say again, why does it always have to be the British
>    Government that is played as the ogre? 

Because at least some of those who are doing so believe that the very 
existence of the British government is wrong.  They are people whose minds
are so stuck in the injustices of the past that they cannot sit down, look
objectivelyu at the present as a starting point, and work their way forward.

Mark H, for example, seems to be obsesed with how Northern Ireland came to
be regarded as a separate entity from the rest of Ireland.  He cannot accept
that it is a separate entity and move forward from that.

Eddie, in the ::Scotland notesfile, is a fervent Scottish nationalist.  He
believes that the problems that Scotland faces can only be solved is we
return to the position that Scotland was in prior to the Union of the Crowns.

I'm not old enough to remember Ireland before partition or Scotland before 
the Union.  I'd prefer to start where we are and look forward.

regards,
//alan

Re .83

>    I have to say again, why does it always have to be the British
>    Government that is played as the ogre? Isn't the refusal of the IRA and
>    Loyalist terrorists to decommission their arma just as stubborn,
>    obstinate and peace-destroying?

The phrase "just as stubborn" implies that the British Government is being 
stubborn in the first place. Isn't the refusal of the British Government to 
decommission their arms just as stubborn, obstinate and peace-destroying?

These preconditions weren't dreamed up by the IRA or the Loyalist
terrrorists. They are the preconditions laid down by the British Government.
Now do you see why the British Government is "always played as the ogre".
It is the British Government who CHOOSES to play this role.

Were such pre-conditions demanded in the recent Bosnian peace negotiations?
Were such pre-conditions demanded in the Middle East peace negotiations?

It is lucicrous for one party in an armed conflict to insist upon the 
disarmament of the opposition prior to peace talks. If this happens there
will be no need for peace talks since the IRA will have nothing to fight
with.
    

    �Isn't the refusal of the British Government to decommission their arms
    �just as stubborn, obstinate and peace-destroying?
    
    I hate to be so blunt but please don't be so bloody naive! The British
    Government will *never* disarm...they will only withdraw their forces when
    the civil situation in NI is stable enough. Either accept it or go talk
    to a tree.
    
    Shaun

RE:   <<< Note 1295.85 by TAGART::EDDIE "Eddie McInally, FIS, Ayr. 823-3537" >>>

� The phrase "just as stubborn" implies that the British Government is being 
� stubborn in the first place. Isn't the refusal of the British Government to 
� decommission their arms just as stubborn, obstinate and peace-destroying?
    
    You may infer whatever you wish, that is not what I said. The British
    Government is, as has been stated again and again and again, the
    legally-constituted, internationally-recognised Government of NI. The
    terrorists are a raggedy-arsed band of criminals and murderers. No
    Government is ever going to lay down its arms before such a band. Get
    real.

� These preconditions weren't dreamed up by the IRA or the Loyalist
� terrrorists. They are the preconditions laid down by the British Government.
    
    Semantics and playing with words. The IRA and Loyalists have their own
    "pre-conditions". To whit; "We will not decommission our arms".
    Where's the difference? The difference is that they portray a state of
    injured innocence, using this situation to hide their "pre-conditions"
    from the world at large. Add to that the fact that the Unionists refuse
    to speak to any group bearing arms, and there's a major problem for the
    UK Government to broker. It is not an ogre, it is attempting to walk a
    very fine tight-rope between all the camps.
    
� Now do you see why the British Government is "always played as the ogre".
� It is the British Government who CHOOSES to play this role.
    
    What complete bollocks. The British Government is "always played as the
    ogre" by the propagandists of, and apologists for, murdering criminals.
    By people who refuse, point-blank, to grasp and understand the
    realities of the extremely delicate and difficult situation in NI. By
    people who are using this "no arms" stance by the British Government to
    hide the fact that they intend to keep their arms, and will revert to
    terrorism if they don't get their own way. It's called, I believe,
    "spin-doctoring" in the US, and the IRA and Loyalists murderers and
    their apologists are very good at it.
    
    Laurie.

> Isn't the refusal of the British Government to 
> decommission their arms just as stubborn, obstinate and peace-destroying?

Is it reasonable to equate arms held by a legitimate government with those 
held by a terrorist organisation?

And on the question of decommissioning, the IRA are not being asked to disarm
completely, a token gesture would suffice.   

Dave

    Laurie, hate to remind you again and again, but to many many Irish
    people, Britain does not have any legally-constituted claim to NI.
    You should reread your history books concerning the British General
    Election of 1918.
    
    George

"The British
 Government will *never* disarm..."

 Why not?  Do they not represent the largest group in north east Ireland,
 with the most weapons?  Why is so much emphasis placed on the surrender
 of Irish Republican Army weapons?  Why not agree that the real solution
 is to remove the gun from Irish Politics, all of them, be they British
 or Irish held.

"The
 terrorists are a raggedy-arsed band of criminals and murderers. No
 Government is ever going to lay down its arms before such a band. Get
 real."

 As you wish, King George.

                               Mark

         

    Speaking as an ordinary citizen, I have no concerns about the amount of
    weaponary help by the army, police etc of my country. I have no fear
    that those groups might, at some time start killing people, or planting
    bombs.
    I do have concerns about arms and explosives help by protest groups, be
    they animal rights, racial groups or Ireland related terrorists. Many
    people have a concern that at some time, one faction in Ireland will
    get fed up with the lack of progress and take up arms again.
    It is for these reasons that decommisioning of weapons finds sympathy
    with many people and the similar act of the army and police is not
    considered.
    Perhaps Dublin and London should start talks on a "solution" and
    exclude all other groups.
    
    Andrew

    That, Mr. Dodd, is exactly how I feel too.
    
    George, may I say again, that whatever happened in 1918, the facts and
    realities of *today* remain. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and
    *Northern Ireland* is governed by the legally-constituted and
    internationally-recognised British Government. No amount of misty-eyed
    nostalgia, or day-dreaming otherwise will change that fact. A change
    will come about via an electoral process, and only with the will of the
    people. Until that happens, the people of Northern Ireland have the
    British Government running their country.
    
    Laurie.

Re .91

>    Speaking as an ordinary citizen, I have no concerns about the amount of
>    weaponary help by the army, police etc of my country. I have no fear
>    that those groups might, at some time start killing people, or planting
>    bombs.
    
Andrew,

	The ordinary citizens of NI may have concerns about the amount of 
	weaponry held by the British Army. The parents of Karen Reilly,
	(the 18 year old innocent civilian murdered by ex-Private, now
	Corporal Lee Clegg) or the parents of the young man murdered by the
	two Scots Guards in Belfast who just this week lost their appeals
	may not share your faith in the British Army.

	You may have no fear of the British Army planting bombs so maybe
	you can reassure the people of Dublin and Monaghan.

Eddie.
    

    Could/would some kind person please clarify whether the decommissioning
    of arms was an explicit condition in the Downing St. Declaration?
    
    Personally, I don't believe it was. I may be mistaken, and if so,
    I'll accept the fact.
    
    At the minute, I think that "decommissioning" was HMG's relocation
    of the goal posts.
    
    John

    Eddie,
    
    One of the problems is that I have never heard the views of an ordinary
    citizen. No, that is not quite true, the few Irish people I have met,
    from the North and the South and resident in other countries of the
    world (and I admit the sample is not large nor statistically valid)
    have shown no hatred of the British, have spoken only reluctantly about
    "the troubles" and have unanimously expressed the wish that all the
    terrorists would take their squabbles somewhere else and leave
    them alone.
    One of the reasons why I have been heard to express the opinion that I
    welcome the views of some of the contributors to this conference is
    that it has helped me to understand why the Irish situation exists in
    the form it does.
    
    Andrew

    
    It will be interesting to see what the "commission on weapons" come up
    with...3 guys have to report beck before mid Janurary..Senator george
    Michel, The Canadian Chief of staff and an as yet unnamed scandinavian
    are the folks in charge. 
    
    Re weapons in general:
    
    When Sinn fein talk of "All the arms been handed in"...Its a losse
    statement. Their focus is on arms held 'legally' by Unionists and 
    the POSITION of the RUC and ex-UDR folk..Its a discussion point...not
    meant to be a perceived as an ultimatium. The media have turned this
    into an SF call for "physical dumping of security force weapons"..Not
    so
    
    rgs,
    
    mick  
    
    

    >>It will be interesting to see what the "commission on weapons" come up
    >>with...3 guys have to report beck before mid Janurary..Senator george
    >>Michel, The Canadian Chief of staff and an as yet unnamed scandinavian
    >>are the folks in charge. 
    
    The Canadian Chief of Staff??  You mean General John de La Chastelaine
    [sic]?
    
    Someone ought to query him about the Canadian Armed Forces' record,
    under him, in Somalia and at Oka.
    
    Pat (in the Great White North)