| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1290.1 | Filter .0 with care.. | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Mon Nov 29 1993 15:28 | 12 |
| In case anybody over here in the USA is under any misgivings about "An
Phoblacht", which is the source of .0, it is the political paper of
Sinn Fein. It is about as reliable as the English gutter press we here
so much about.
From .0 you would think that Sinn Fein was a major political force in the
Republic of Ireland. It rarely gets more than 1% of the national vote in
General elections. It currently has no TD's (members of parliament).
It's politics is socialist, bordering on Marxist. So please take all
that is distributed by Sinn Fein with liberal dashings of salt.
Joe.
|
| 1290.2 | | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Tue Nov 30 1993 05:37 | 6 |
|
Joe,
Thanks for answering a question that i asked in another note.
Great to see a bit of stateside sense for a change!
Bill
|
| 1290.3 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Tue Nov 30 1993 08:34 | 25 |
|
re. .1 and .2
Joe & Willy,
If you have facts which condradict what has been
written by these women, then please do share them
with the rest of us.
I believe Sinn Fein garners some 30% of the
Nationalist vote. In any event, any percentages
of the vote that Sinn Fein receives must also be
taken in the context that it is a legal political
party that is censored. Not to mention the fact
that the British mark for death it's members and
supporters.
You may think socialism is a dirty word, but
many of us in the U.S. know that it is not
communism, but a system that supports things like
health care for all, care for the elderly etc.
You might also want to point out that by U.S.
standards the current British and Irish systems
are socialist.
Mark
|
| 1290.4 | Not exactly representing all nationalists... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Tue Nov 30 1993 09:07 | 14 |
| re .3
Sinn Fein's brand of socialism is as close to communism as one gets
without setting up collectives. The 1% I quoted was for the 26 Counties
of the Republic.
30% of the nationalist vote would be less than 15% of the total vote
in the North. Not exactly a clear mandate.
While not been exactly starry eyed about what goes on in the north (I
have had my car searched with vigour by a UDR patrol), one wonders why
Sinn Fein for all it's supposed wonders isn't a bigger hit with
Nationalists.
Joe.
|
| 1290.5 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Tue Nov 30 1993 09:19 | 11 |
| RE: .-1
True, but 15% of the total vote in the north is not minimal by
any means. A mandate certainly not, but important nonetheless.
[As a comparison, just think where John Major would be today
without his *few* Unionist supporters in NI.]
On another note, many of my relatives in the Republic work for
farming collectives. Are they communists Joe?
/george
|
| 1290.6 | | CLADA::DODONNELL | Nothing personal.It's just business. | Tue Nov 30 1993 09:34 | 7 |
|
Sinn Fein socialist, bordering on communist? Gimme a break. Perhaps
you can call them socialist in the same vain as you can call the
Labour party here socialist. But definitely not communist. Sinn Fein's
agenda is nationalism not socialism.
Denis.
|
| 1290.7 | pub time | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Tue Nov 30 1993 13:22 | 21 |
|
Surely the point is that it is of no consequence whether the
republicans are communists, socialists or whatever. They are first and
foremost republicans with a very small minority vote. Because of that
level of support they have no mandate by the people of Eire to carry on
with an armed struggle against British rule in NI. They do of course
have the right to a place in the politics of Ireland north and south,
uncensored.
I would also argue that the republican supporters in the north do have
a right to be protected from loyalist gangs but that they only see the
IRA as the means to do that. Therefore, if the IRA blow up innocent
people, the loyalists retaliate and vice-versa.
It seems clear to me that (reference the opinion poll carried out in
Eire recently) that he public do not want to have anything to do with
the north. Given that that seems to be the general feeling from every
angle, why is the "war" continuing?
Because it suits the politicians thats why! And before you say it Mark,
that means both sides.
Big Willy
|
| 1290.8 | Some replies | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Tue Nov 30 1993 13:29 | 31 |
| re .3
>>You might also want to point out that by U.S. standards the current
>>British and Irish systems are socialist.
I'd agree with this, but Sinn Fein's propaganda in the inner city areas
of Ireland i.e. Dublin, Limerick, Cork etc, where their support is
centered, is of the Workers of the world unite brand. They also have a
strong tendency to use their association with the IRA to instigate
vigilante type "local policing".
re .5
My Father is a trustee of what you term collectives, i.e farmers
co-operatives. You bend my words out of context. The collective I
referred to was of the soviet type, land owned by the state, what you
refer to is a pooling of resources by small farmers, so they get
better deals on fertiliser, farm machinery, or reap benefit from the
processing of their primary produce. No land rights are given up. So
please stop bending what I'm saying.
re .6
>>>Sinn Fein's agenda is nationalism not socialism.
Nationalism is their primary aganda, but the rest of their platform is
strongly socialist, way left of the Irish Labour Party, and peppered
strongly with Marxism.
Please Gentlemen open your eyes, Sinn Fein are no angels...
Joe.
|
| 1290.9 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Tue Nov 30 1993 13:43 | 14 |
| >angle, why is the "war" continuing?
>Because it suits the politicians thats why! And before you say it Mark,
>that means both sides.
Well I agree with you on that to some extent Bill. The ironic thing is
that the British recruit from Manchester and the IRA volunteer from
Tyrone have more in common with each other than with the politicians
that are running the show.
Bottom line however, the Irish people in Northern Ireland deserve a
another chance to chart their own course without interference from
London and Dublin. That means a total British military withdrawal in
conjunction with a pledge by the Unionists at sharing political power
with the Nationalists. When this happens there will be peace.
|
| 1290.10 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Tue Nov 30 1993 13:59 | 14 |
| RE: .8
Sorry Joe, I thought you were referring to co-ops, which are prevalent
in the South.
Regardless of where in the political spectrum Sinn Fein sits, they have
every right to their views and should not be censored. On another note
I was amazed that the British parliament ejected Paisley - because he
said Mayhew told falsehoods. Why censor Paisley from parliament? Were
Paddy Mayhew's feelings hurt?
I am not a big advocate of Ian Paisleys by any stretch of the imagination,
but the British government certainly has a strange notion of free
speech, if any...
|
| 1290.11 | more comment | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Tue Nov 30 1993 14:28 | 15 |
| re -1.
I am not against free speech and I don't believe that section 31 is
correct. However I am trying to say that Sinn Fein are not the poor
innocents and upholders of goodness and right that many of the postings in
this notesfile tend to portray.
Paisley probably relished been thrown out of the British Parliament
chambers. It's publicity for his cause. He pulled a similar stunt not
so long ago in the European Parliament when he booed the Pope. In my
opinion, he and his party are responsible for a lot of grief in the
North, not necessarily through their actions, but certainly through their
attitudes. Of course he has his parallels on the other side.
Joe.
|
| 1290.12 | | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Wed Dec 01 1993 04:53 | 5 |
| re .9
Couldn't agree more. But while there are unreasonable people in control
of the masses, what's the chances?
|
| 1290.13 | | VYGER::RENNISONM | This is the voice of the Mysterons | Wed Dec 01 1993 07:09 | 22 |
| >Author: TALLIS::DARCY Alpha Migration Tools
>Number: 1290.9 Created: 30-Nov-1993 01:43pm Replies: 12
>
> London and Dublin. That means a total British military withdrawal in
> conjunction with a pledge by the Unionists at sharing political power
> with the Nationalists. When this happens there will be peace.
I'm sorry. I'd love to agree but I think your argument is flawed. For
every � raised for the "cause" (whichever one), you can bet your bottom
dollar that a percentage is retained by those at the top. This money is
used to buy new cars, the holiday in Spain, new clothes for the wife, a
day-trip to the races etc.
The minute there is peace, these funds will dry up and a few people
currently enjoying the good life will need to do something deadful like
work for a living. A few well-timed bombs/shootings/whatever will soon
remedy that.
I know it's a totally pessimistic view but these people are making a living
out of this. Why else do they refuse to compromise ?
Mark R.
|
| 1290.14 | quite agree | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Wed Dec 01 1993 09:03 | 4 |
|
Mark R. what a cynic you are...... welcome to the club!!
Bill
|
| 1290.15 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Wed Dec 01 1993 11:25 | 18 |
| re. .13
I do not believe the British propoganda line, that
the members of the IRA are some sort of "gangsters"
living the good life. Do you have any evidence
whatsoever to back up that claim, or are you just
parroting the British government line, which aims
at criminalizing, and isolating the Republican
movement?
I suspect you are correct in the case of the loyalist
terrorist groups, and the military-industrial interest
of the British army. I've heard of reports about
the loyalist terror gangs and their involvement with
criminal activities like drug dealing.
Mark
|
| 1290.16 | | VYGER::RENNISONM | This is the voice of the Mysterons | Wed Dec 01 1993 12:16 | 38 |
| >Author: KOALA::HOLOHAN
>Number: 1290.15 Created: 01-Dec-1993 11:25am Replies: 15
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> re. .13
>
> I do not believe the British propoganda line, that
> the members of the IRA are some sort of "gangsters"
I don't belive it of all IRA members. Read what is written before you
reply. It has been known to help.
> Do you have any evidence
> whatsoever to back up that claim, or are you just
> parroting the British government line, which aims
> at criminalizing, and isolating the Republican
> movement?
>
> I suspect you are correct in the case of the loyalist
> terrorist groups, and the military-industrial interest
> of the British army. I've heard of reports about
> the loyalist terror gangs and their involvement with
> criminal activities like drug dealing.
So when I reckon that someone is a gangster it's "propaganda". When you
do it appears to be fact. Recently I read two articles in the same paper
by the same journalist. One was detailing IRA extortion and the other was
a report about Loyalist groups selling tickets for the recent ROI v NI
soccer match at inflated prices with the profits going towards UFF funds.
No doubt you'll tell me that one was Brit propaganda and the other a
well-written entirely factual report.
Get a life
MR
|
| 1290.17 | | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Wed Dec 01 1993 12:26 | 13 |
| re .15
How much evidence do you need that the IRA are a bunch of criminals.
You might notice that we don't catalogue their atrocities in the same
way that you do with the loyalists. As far as gangsterism is concerned,
what do you call knee-capping over there?, meniscous lesion?
Open your eyes Mark, one side is as bad as the other.
How do you fix a problem? You need to identify what the problem is
first! I would suggest that it ain't the obvious ones like the army
being there or Eire's constitutional claims on the territory.
It's the bigotted gangsters that live there!
|
| 1290.18 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Wed Dec 01 1993 16:25 | 20 |
|
re. .16 & .17
I'd suggest you are both wrong. Any attempts to
link the IRA and Loyalist terror gangs in the same
boat, are just British propoganda lines.
The IRA are fighting the British occupation.
The Loyalist terror gangs are murderous gangsters,
who get their rocks off of killing Catholics.
What constitutes extortion? I'm forced under
penalty of jail to pay my federal taxes, to
fund a huge defense budget, is that extortion?
Mark
|
| 1290.19 | Some personal references for the IRA. | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Wed Dec 01 1993 17:12 | 30 |
| Mark,
I hate to break the news to you, but the IRA are just as bad as the
Loyalists for extortion and racketeering. I played National league
Water-polo and down through the years I've got to know a lot of the
people in the teams from Belfast. Of the four teams there, all have
both Catholic and Protestant members. The chairman of the Irish Water
Polo Association was until last year a northern Catholic. He retired
due to ill health this year. My elder brother who was treasurer of the
IWPA is a good personal friend of his. His brother, a taxi driver, was
killed last year by Loyalists. What does he have to say about the IRA: he
calls them the Irish version of the Mafia. And I can assure you I would
trust his judgement.
Does the term "Black Taxi" mean anything to you? The IRA at one stage
ran all the taxis in Belfast, on a "protection" basis. This was broken
in the last few years by new laws aimed at the laundering of such
money.
Knee-capping is done on more than just the occasional joy-rider. The
IRA do more than fight the British occupation. They also do many bank
robberies and kidnappings in the Republic to fund themselves. Feuds between
IRA factions (such as the INLA) were common place in the late Eighties.
Most of this was a result of the spoils of bank robberies and how they
should be divided.
The IRA are not knights in shining armour by any stretch of the
imagination!
Joe.
|
| 1290.20 | | NOVA::EASTLAND | | Wed Dec 01 1993 17:25 | 8 |
|
You're wasting your time. If Mark couldn't think of the IRA as knights
in shining armour, he'd have to face a lot of other questions he's not
keen on answering. Yes, it's totally self-delusional. Can you change
it? No. It's like the average Serb in Belgrade, fed news by Milosevic's
regime, thinking the neo-Chetniks and White Eagles are simply brave,
loyal freedom fighters, who don't do any atrocities ever to anyone.
|
| 1290.21 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Thu Dec 02 1993 09:24 | 16 |
|
Joe,
Let's see if I got this right, your elder brothers
friends brothers friend was killed by Loyalist. His
brothers friends brother thinks the IRA are the
mafia. You trust this brothers friends brothers
judgement whole-heartedly, as this is a personal,
ie (brothers friends judgement). Finally if I had
played water-polo, I too would see the light.
Mark
|
| 1290.22 | | YUPPY::MILLARB | | Thu Dec 02 1993 09:50 | 40 |
| re last.
Mark
Let us get you right.
You live in the US. You left the UK at 14 years of age...
Your entire knowledge of what happens over here is based on newspaper
reports that support your belief.
Therefore you are qualified to tell somebody who is here that they have
got it all wrong ...
You are also the person who enters notes telling us that the IRA
accidently blow up civilians, and are then unfairly castigated for it in
the press.
You are also the person who answers every note that you choose to with
a question or a further accusation.
Your command of the English language is such that you can enter a
conference which deals with issues relating to CELTS and wrongly and
with no apology critisize what is not American Grammar.
As mentioned earlier in this conference Mark your credibility is 0.
Your willingness to comment on an issue that you choose to have no part in,
based purely on what you read in papers that you select to prove your
point serves only to give most of us a good laugh.
Regards
Bruce
PS: Mark. What exactly is your Celtic Heritage.??? Please let us know
when your memory returns regarding the MP. I'm sure you could get her
name fron one of the papers that you so religously scan for truthful
honest news. Try the BEANO or is that the one you usulally use.
|
| 1290.23 | Chew on this... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Thu Dec 02 1993 09:52 | 12 |
| Mark,
I trust their judgement because they live through your personal war
every day of their lives, and see whats going on in real close-up. The
IRA are no longer freedom fighters, but modern day gangsters who live
beyond all law. I particularly trust the judgement of the man who's
brother was killed by loyalists, as he, if you were right, would have
greatest reason to side with the IRA, yet he would'nt associate with
them if it was the last thing he ever did. Think about that, Mark,
before you post your next piece of propaganda.
Joe.
|
| 1290.24 | mammy ma heid's nippin' | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Thu Dec 02 1993 11:19 | 22 |
|
Joe,
Mark H. is the epitomy of why negotiations are impossible. He, by his
own hand, is telling the world why it is so difficuilt to even get a
basis for dialogue on peace. He and his compatriots would not see the
light if it were stuck up their crevices, such is their fanatical
belief in their own minds. I think the phsycologists call it mass
hypnosis. He quite genuinely believes that knee-capping for example is
British propaganda and therefore is unlikely to ever be convinced that
the IRA run protection rackets. He also believes that there is a war
being waged between Catholics and Protestants in NI but in reality it's
down to a few segregated housing schemes in Belfast and Derry or
Londonderry (depending on which foot you kick with).
I wouldn't mind a little bet that says that more than 50% of the gang
members on both sides have little or no idea what catholicism or
protestantism actually is.
John Calvin? Who's he then?? or was it Pete?
You could go on for hours about this but i don't think the light shines
very brightly in Boston at this time of year!!
Bill
|
| 1290.25 | | YUPPY::MILLARB | | Thu Dec 02 1993 11:22 | 30 |
| Joe
Your wasting your time trying to convince our resident expert on all
things IRA that he is wrong. As I have mentioned in here before Living
in NI. Does not give you the same insight as Mark H has with regard to
these matters.
A quick scan through some of Marks notes will show you how eminently
qualified he is to tell you how wrong you are.
Living through this comes a poor second in Marks book to reading comic
books on the subject.
I repeat and make no apologies for repeating. Anybody who can enter a
note claiming that the IRA's targetting of civillians was and is an
accident has a serious brain defect. Failing that they they must be
hiding away in some foreign clime safe from the guff that try and get us
to believe.
But keep reading Joe. Mark is soon going tell us all what his Celtic
roots are.
Rumour has it his memory is soon to return with the names of
politicians that he forgot.
Keep watching this space.
Regards
Bruce
|
| 1290.26 | | YUPPY::MILLARB | | Thu Dec 02 1993 11:29 | 10 |
| re .24
Hey Billy.. Surely your not trying to get us beleiving that Mr Holohan
just because he chooses to live several thousand miles away may have
got it wrong ??
Anyway how come these wimmin are talking when there's dishes to be
washed :*)
Bruce -who's-now-pittin-his-tin-hat-on.
|
| 1290.27 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Thu Dec 02 1993 11:37 | 23 |
|
re. .22
Much of your assumptions are wrong, and I have no
intention of giving you a run-down of my personal
life history in a public forum.
re. .23
As I trust the judgement of those I know who
live in Belfast and Derry, and are on the short
end of the British stick. I also trust the judgement
of independent human rights organizations that have
consistently condemned British human rights violations
in north east Ireland. What is the point in "siding"
with anyone? I can understand why the IRA are fighting
these injustices. I can understand the need for
all parties involved to be at the peace-table.
Mark
|
| 1290.28 | | YUPPY::MILLARB | | Thu Dec 02 1993 12:19 | 33 |
| Mark
>> Much of your assumptions are wrong.
Surely you meant to say
All of your
Most of your
Some of your
One of your
hate to be picky old chap but as we all know Mark Grammar is your
chosen subject.
My assumptions are merely taken from notes that you have entered these
are all points that you have stated.
I'm sure you have absolutely no intention of giving us or me a run down
of your personal life history Mark. But for the benefit of thoses who
are interested it reads....
Wiped my boots of Britain when I was 14.
Went to Ireland once in the late eighties.
Suffer from occasional memory loss after making statements in notes.
Like I said Mark. Credibility 0.
Regards
Beuce
|
| 1290.29 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Thu Dec 02 1993 13:05 | 11 |
|
re. .28
Can we get back to the topic at hand, the article
by Republican Women. Could you please find another
place to post your erroneous beliefs on my personal
history, like /dev/null.
Thankyou,
Mark
|
| 1290.30 | | YUPPY::MILLARB | | Thu Dec 02 1993 18:34 | 38 |
| Hi Mark
I was replying to your topic. Apologies if I may have answered in a way
that is more suitable to your usual style of reply.
Still as you say, lets get back to the topic in hand...
The name of the politician was ???
Over to you Mr Holohan...
If this question causes you a problenm try a really simple one.
If I drop a bomb in a dustbin (garbage can to you Mark) And I set it go
off in the middle of the afternoon, perhaps in a shopping center that I
know will be full of innocent people will it be an accident.
I really want to know your views on this Mark....
You may of course find your own reply should be posted in another
topic.
Could I suggest the following may be more to your taste.
::I have never been there
::I have read some news papers.
::I once Lived in London so I am an Expert.
Come on over Mark.. Your Pals would love to meet you...Not.
Regards
Bruce
PS: Mark something you know ***T all about. SEMTEX does not delay on
spelling mistakes.f
|
| 1290.31 | | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Fri Dec 03 1993 04:37 | 17 |
|
let's get back to the topic then Mark!
You posted an article and you got a reply in .1
That reply, in as few as a dozen lines, summed up not only your
credibility problem but Sinn Fein's as well.
You then made a statement to the world that CNN had televised an
interview with a British MP, a female, who made disparaging remarks
about Catholics. You were offered an olive branch but you cannot accept
it. Everybody knows why you cannot accept it.
So why do you resist debate?
As has been demonstrated, there are more Irish Nationalists living in
Boston than there are in Ireland and probably more copies of An
Phoblacht are sold there than in Ireland.
Shouldn't that be /dev/nrmt0h so that we don't keep getting the same
stuff and hopefully you'll run out of tape soon.
|
| 1290.32 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Fri Dec 03 1993 12:04 | 42 |
| > Hi Mark
> I was replying to your topic. Apologies if I may have answered in a way
> that is more suitable to your usual style of reply.
> Still as you say, lets get back to the topic in hand...
> The name of the politician was ???
Bzzzt!!! Wrong topic (that was 1292), now I know what they
mean by thick as a Bri*. Didn't I say in 1292.0 that I didn't
remember her name? What does that mean to you? Do you
understand the words "don't remember"?
> Over to you Mr Holohan...
Is there something that you found personally offensive in
.0? Was it the idea that women who live with the horror of
British occupation might have something to say on that topic?
Is it your British desire to censor things you'd rather not
learn about? Or is it just your self-pity that your train
got delayed?
Well Bruce and Willy, I've no sympathy for either of you.
If even in small British minds like yourselves, you can
remotely compare the inconvenience you may personally suffer
over a delayed train, to the sorrow and devastation faced
by these women, then there is no hope for you or your
race.
I hope for your sake you learn that a vile hatred of
of your enemy must be put aside if you wish to find peace.
If you are not even willing to listen to the views of those
who oppose you, then I'm sure they will get your attention
another way.
When your British Prime Minister does his best to scuttle any
prospect of peace, I do hope you don't suffer to terribly
from another delayed commuter ride.
Have a nice commute,
Mark
|
| 1290.33 | | NOVA::EASTLAND | | Fri Dec 03 1993 12:18 | 9 |
|
> Bzzzt!!! Wrong topic (that was 1292), now I know what they
> mean by thick as a Bri*. Didn't I say in 1292.0 that I didn't
Now, now Mark. This is a racial slur, wouldn't you say. And please
spare us the lectures on 'vile hatred of the enemy'. Your own
replies are more full of that hatred you talk about than those of
anyone else.
|
| 1290.34 | | VYGER::RENNISONM | This is the voice of the Mysterons | Fri Dec 03 1993 13:23 | 78 |
| > Bzzzt!!! Wrong topic (that was 1292), now I know what they
> mean by thick as a Bri*.
Just a tad racist, don't you think ?
> Didn't I say in 1292.0 that I didn't
> remember her name? What does that mean to you? Do you
> understand the words "don't remember"?
How wonderfully convenient.
> Is there something that you found personally offensive in
> .0? Was it the idea that women who live with the horror of
> British occupation might have something to say on that topic?
Not at all. THey may choose to call it occupation. The loyalist community
may call it "measures to stop the enforced separation" or something
similiar.
> Is it your British desire to censor things you'd rather not
> learn about? Or is it just your self-pity that your train
> got delayed?
I don't like censorship.. I reckon the government scored a major own goal
with this one as it only gives ammunition to the likes of you. Also Sinn
Fein are such a minority anyway that censorship gave them more publicity
than they could ever have dreamed of.
> I hope for your sake you learn that a vile hatred of
> of your enemy must be put aside if you wish to find peace.
And who do you reckon the enemy is from our point of view ? For me it's
not Irish Republicans. I'd rate Mr Hume above all other British politicians
any day. The enemy is the IRA. Without them, you may actually convince
Ulster Loyalists of the virtues of a United Ireland. There are many ways
of changing peoples opinions. The IRA haven't yet learnt that putting
bombs in Fish shops isn't one of them. So long as the IRA are seen to be
representative of Nationalism you will never change the minds of Ulster
loyalists. If you don't change their minds, a majority vote for
Nationalism is still 20-30 years away.
> If you are not even willing to listen to the views of those
> who oppose you, then I'm sure they will get your attention
> another way.
They get the attention which is a shame because if more attention was
given to Mr Hendron and Mr Hume, Irish Nationalism would get a much better
reception by both the mainland population and the Ulster Loyalists.
> When your British Prime Minister does his best to scuttle any
> prospect of peace, I do hope you don't suffer to terribly
> from another delayed commuter ride.
Mr Major has many faults, including the dealings with the Loyalists over
the Maastricht debate. However, he has pushed the whole question of
Northern Ireland to the front pages of every newspaper and into the homes
of every house in Britain. At least people are aware that there is virtual
civil war in part of this country. He is at least addressing the problem
publicly (something which hasn't been done for a long time). I hope him
and Mr Reynolds can come to some sort of agreement tomorrow. I'm not going
to make any predictions because things are happening too quickly just now.
As a footnote, you might like this proposed solution to the Northern
Ireland problem it was proposed by someone I know (who will remain
nameless). They suggested that we take all of Ireland's protestants (most
of whom are of Scottish descent) and swap them with Scotland's Catholics
(most of whom are of Irish descent). This was quickly rejected when I
pointed out that I (among thousands of others) would have to terminate my
marraige.
Mark R.
|
| 1290.35 | Some specifics... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Fri Dec 03 1993 18:18 | 86 |
|
OK here's some specific coommnetsa I have with what's in .0
>>>"In the South we only get a limited, distorted side of what
>>>happens in the North through the media. We need more information
>>>so that we can make our own decisions on what is happening
>>>there." So said community activist Kathleen Maher from Ballymun
>>>in Dublin, at the sixth annual republican women's conference in
>>>Dublin on Saturday, November 6th.
I lived in the Republic long enough to know that the Irish media present a very
fair picture of what happens in the North.
>>>Section 31 censorship had silenced the people in the 26 Counties
>>>and made them afraid to speak out, said another speaker from the
>>>South.
Section 31 does not silence people, it stops them been reported word for word
in the media. It's not a blanket ban on all things nationalist, just stops the
rhetoric and word-twisting these people play at.
>>>An appeal for a "reaching out" between women at community level,
>>>North and South, was urgently stressed by delegates at the
>>>conference and the need for a structure to carry out such
>>>activity was underlined.
Waffle...
>>>There was strong endorsement of the Adams/Hume initiative with
>>>Derry Sinn Fein councillor Mary Nelis proposing that women from
>>>the Six Counties organize their own 'peace train' to Dublin to
>>>demand that the government take up the chance for peace offered
>>>by the initiative. They would be asking: "Will Reynolds sell us
>>>out? If that is the case what are supposed to do, go back to the
>>>kitchen? I'm not prepared to do that. We will tell then loud and
>>>clear, we're not going back."
What has the peace initiative got to do with women's rights. This is an
extremely confused paragraph. If Reynold's sells them out, they won't go back
to the kitchen. More waffle...
>>>Dublin City Councillor Christy Burke said that for working-class
>>>women in Dublin and those on the poverty line, it was the case
>>>that they were so overburdened with their own considerable social
>>>problems that they did not take on board the dreadful position of
>>>women in the Six Counties. "Women not a stones's throw from this
>>>building are living in fear because of thugs." He stressed the
>>>damaging effect which Section 31 had on people in the 26 Counties
>>>and supported Councillor Nelis' idea of organizing a peace train
>>>from the Six Counties to Dublin.
What exactly is the damaging effect of section 31 to the vast majority of the
Republic's population.
>>>Section 31 censorship was the subject of an address to the
>>>conference by Joan O'Connor of the Repeal Section 31 Campaign.
>>>Section 31 hindered the peace process, she said, but it was only
>>>one part of three manifestations of censorship which included the
>>>British Broadcasting Ban and self-censorship in the broadcasting
>>>and print media.
What is referred to here as Self censorship of the media, I'd refer to as
Editorial common sense. Don't report what is'nt true or a manipulation of the
truth. Something an Phoblacht should do.
>>>Addressing the Adams/Hume peace initiative, Mairead Keane of Sinn
>>>Fein's Women's Department asked how have women elected
>>>representatives in the 26 Counties responded to the initiative.
>>>"Do they have views on the effects of the ongoing conflict on the
>>>lives of women in the Six Counties? Do they have a vision of a
>>>peaceful Ireland?" she asked.
Yes, Irish Womem Politicians do: ask Mary Harney or Maire Geoghegan Quinn or
any of the other Irish women TD's. Can you name one that would side with Sinn
Fein on this.
>>>She said that the "real dirt on Dublin" could be found in "its
>>>covert relationship with Britain and her imperial interests in
>>>Ireland. It is this arena that we find the answers to many of the
>>>most troubling events and episodes of this past quarter of a
>>>century. It is in this arena that we will find many of the
>>>answers outstanding since May 17, 1974 and the atrocities
>>>perpetuated against the civilian populations of Dublin and
>>>Monaghan."
It's widely known that the Irish Army and Gardai work with the security forces
in the north in an attempt to curb paramilitary activity. I don't see what's
wrong with it, when the alternative is the collapse of democratic government
in the Republic.
Joe.
|
| 1290.36 | | TALLIS::DARCY | Alpha Migration Tools | Sat Dec 04 1993 11:46 | 15 |
| >Section 31 does not silence people, it stops them been reported word for word
>in the media. It's not a blanket ban on all things nationalist, just stops the
>rhetoric and word-twisting these people play at.
>What exactly is the damaging effect of section 31 to the vast majority of the
>Republic's population.
Yes Joe, free speech is a nasty thing isn't it? Thank God we have the
laws to censor others whom we don't agree with! Maybe we should also
censor the rhetoric from Homosexuals and Jews and Environmentalists? And
besides, the vast majority of Irish wouldn't be affected. These groups
are but a minority in the Republic. What a progressive and democratic
thought...
/George
|
| 1290.37 | Censorship is wrong, period. | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Sat Dec 04 1993 13:56 | 23 |
|
>I lived in the Republic long enough to know that the Irish media present a very
>fair picture of what happens in the North.
A fair picture is an uncensored one. It's really quite simple.
>What has the peace initiative got to do with women's rights. This is an
>extremely confused paragraph. If Reynold's sells them out, they won't go back
>to the kitchen. More waffle...
"back to the kitchen", don't you think this is a little condescending?
Many of the nationalists women in the north east suffer the hardest.
It's their children that are murdered, terrorized by the British.
>What exactly is the damaging effect of section 31 to the vast majority of the
>Republic's population.
Germany, 1939 - What exactly is the damaging effect of placing the
Star of David on the Jews, to the majority of the German population.
Mark
|
| 1290.38 | More bending of the truth boys.... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Mon Dec 06 1993 10:09 | 34 |
|
>>>>I lived in the Republic long enough to know that the Irish media present a very
>>>>>fair picture of what happens in the North.
> A fair picture is an uncensored one. It's really quite simple.
It's not as simple as the way .0 depicts, I can assure you.
> "back to the kitchen", don't you think this is a little condescending?
> Many of the nationalists women in the north east suffer the hardest.
> It's their children that are murdered, terrorized by the British.
I merely repeated in .35 what was said in .0 about "back to the kitchen",
could these women be condescending to other women? This indicates that
you don't even know what you posted in .0. So you accept what these
people say blindly without even reading it?
> Germany, 1939 - What exactly is the damaging effect of placing the
> Star of David on the Jews, to the majority of the German population.
Oh, come now, all the killing in the North is amply reported in the
Republic. All that's censored is the exact words of Sinn Fein
politicians, when they refer to the political situation in the North.
They can speak freely on any topic they like, but the press cannot
reprint what they say verbatim, when they talk politics. I'm not saying
section 31 is right, I never have, but to put it on a par with Germany
of the 30's is a gross exaggeration and very misleading. My point was
that it does not infringe on the rights of the vast majority of
the people of the country. This is not what was inferred in .0.
Joe.
|
| 1290.39 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Mon Dec 06 1993 10:56 | 18 |
|
re. .38
You're condradicting yourself. You say that you are
not saying section 31 is right, yet you go on to
trivialize its affect. Trivializing censorship is the
same as justifying it. Worse still is your
referal to not infringing on the majority, as if that
somehow makes it ok to remove a basic right from
the minority.
As for your "back to kitchen" remark, you're playing
word games.
Mark
|
| 1290.40 | | ISEQ::DODONNELL | Going, going....... | Mon Dec 06 1993 10:59 | 6 |
|
You obviously haven't lived in the Republic long enough. Section 31
applies only to the Broadcast media. The print media are not affected
by it and can publish any comments by Sinn Fein members.
Denis.
|
| 1290.41 | Section 31 revealed... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Mon Dec 06 1993 13:41 | 10 |
| Thank you Denis, for pointing this out. I rest my case on the coverage
of the North by the Irish media.
Joe.
PS: I've lived in Ireland for all my life, with the exception of two
years, one in the Netherlands and one in the US, just in case anybody was
thinking of throwing aspersions on my qualification to comment on Irish
affairs. I have currently been in the US for 3 months, a GAO refugee.
|
| 1290.42 | Word games for all... | ADISSW::SMYTH | | Mon Dec 06 1993 13:44 | 7 |
| Oh, I forgot to mention...
Mark, look back at what has been written about "back to the kitchen" in
this note string, from .0 and the last few. I think the impartial
viewer could decide who's playing the word games here.
Joe.
|
| 1290.43 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Mon Dec 06 1993 16:27 | 14 |
|
re. .41
Joe,
Want some advice, don't ever go into law. The case you
just rested was a losing one. You can not justify
censorship by trivialization, and you can not justify
a broadcasting ban, by your own lack of knowledge.
re. .42
Whatever, believe what you want.
Mark
|
| 1290.44 | | KERNEL::BARTHUR | | Mon Dec 13 1993 07:47 | 12 |
| re.32
Mark,
If that note had been written by someone else i might have been more
than a little annoyed, but since it's from your good racist self i'll
ignore it, except to say this; I have no "vile hatred" of anyone of any
colour or religion. Got that?
I think that you have amply demonstrated your own of course and whats
worse is that you are the epitomy of why true peace in NI is going to
take a long long time to achieve.
Bill
|