Conference tallis::celt

Do you really believe the British Government holds such power over US foreign
policy?

    
    Absolutely No Doubt ...

    
    True, they do.

>Do you really believe the British Government holds such power over US foreign
>policy?
    
    To some degree yes.  As mentioned in the previous notes, it is payback
    for the good deeds that you British have done for the US government.
    I am really amazed at the spineless attitude of the Irish government
    however.  And note that I am a fervent advocate of Free Speech, not
    particularly of Sinn Fein.  This is 1984 in 1993.  George Orwell would
    be proud of us...

    >    I am really amazed at the spineless attitude of the Irish
    >government however. 
    
    
    Why should you be amazed at them, when one of the aims of Sinn Fein is
    the overthrow (by any means) of the existing government structure of
    Ireland. I don't see why they should lobby on there behalf.
    
    Joe.

    
    Indeed, what made it a no-brainer for Foggy Bottom was the opposition
    of both the Irish and British governments to giving these guys a
    platform in the US.
    

                       U.S. visa revoked
                       Nelis refused admission to U.S. 
                       (The Derry Journal, Derry, N.I.)

Derry Sinn Fein Councillor, Mary Nelis, has described as "ridiculous and
incomprehensible" the decision by the U.S. Immigration authorities to
revoke her U.S. visa, expressly banning her from entering the United
States.  The refusal to let Councillor Nelis, along with Councillors Una
Gillespie and Francie Molloy, enter the United States is evidence of the
British Government "string pulling" in U.S. foreign policy, the party
chairperson, Tom Hartley, has claimed.

The three councillors were turned back by U.S. immigration officers at
Shannon Airport on Friday as they were setting off on a three-week
public speaking tour of the Mid West.  The New York bound flight was held up 
for almost two hours as the officials boarded the plane to remove 
Councillors Nelis and Molloy, who had already been cleared by immigration 
officials.  Gillespie had earlier been stopped.

Speaking to the "Journal" yesterday, an angry Councillor Nelis said: "I
was given no explanation whatsoever as to why I was being refused entry
to the United States. We were treated quite badly by the immigration
authorities at Shannon who seem to be a law unto themselves.
"My luggage as well as my personal belongings were searched without my
permission.  One of the immigration officials went through all my papers
and I believe even photocopied the names and addresses of some of my
friends in the U.S.

"When we initially arrived at Shannon, we were stopped by immigration
officials who asked us various questions concerning the purpose of the
trip.  I informed them that I was traveling to the U.S. as part of an
educational tour during which we were to inform the Irish-American
community on the Hume-Adams initiative.

               QUESTIONING

"I then had my visa stamped an I was allowed to board the plane with
Councillor Molloy.  However, Councillor Gillespie was stopped and taken
away for questioning. "
"We had been sitting in the plane for about 25-30 minutes when a man,
accompanied by one of the air hostesses, approached Councillor Molloy and
myself and asked us to hand over our passports and tickets.  When asked,
he refused to give any explanation of his actions."
"This individual then told us to collect our luggage and leave the plane
and to report to immigration officials for further questioning."
"I was taken into a room by one of the immigration officials who again
asked me the purpose of my trip to the United States.  I again informed
him that it was an educational trip.  However, when he asked me the
names and addresses of people I was to meet during my stay, I asked for
a lawyer in order to find out what rights I had."
"He then took my notebook out of the room and I distinctly heard him
using the photocopier.  Another official proceeded to search my bag.  I
was then told that I wouldn't be boarding the plane as I had failed to
answer the questions."
"I was then asked for a description of my luggage as it was being
removed from the plane.  My luggage was then also searched without
permission."
"During the entire ordeal we received no explanation whatsoever on the
reasoning behind the decision to refuse us entry to the U.S."
 Councillor Nelis, who had traveled to the United States only 3 weeks
earlier, called on the U.S. State Department to explain why they were now
refusing here entry to the country where her son, daughter-in-law and
grandchild lived. "What has happened in the past three weeks to change
their minds?" she asked.
 Councillor Nelis, who also had to return her duty free goods, describe
the attitude of the U.S. immigration authorities as "heavy-handed".
"There was nothing sinister surrounding my trip to the United States.  I
have been traveling to the U.S. for the past twenty years and have
always upheld the U.S. Constitution and never violated and laws, why
this sudden change, particularly when one considers the fact that I am
an elected representative.
"I was merely traveling to the United States to inform the
Irish-American community of the recent dialogue between John Hume and
Gerry Adams and to appeal for support for peace in Ireland."
"On recent visists to the United States I visited Capital Hill,
addressed both Baltimore and San Francisco City Councils and discussed
the whole question of peace in Ireland with various Irish-American
groups.

                     PREVENTING

"Is the U.S. State Department now deliberately preventing the American
community from participating in informal debate on the Adams-Hume
initiative and any proposals for peace in Ireland."
"It was quite a retrograde move to deny Gerry Adams a U.S. visa when one
considers that the Clinton administration had promised to look
sympathetically at the opportunity of giving visas to those who had
previously been denied them.
"Both the Irish and British Governments have obviously influenced the
decision to deny Gerry Adams a visa.  It is an even more serious move to
revoke the visas of democratically elected people.
"Personally, this decision now leaves me in a very unhappy position.  I
have family in the U.S., a son, who is funnily enough, a Congressional
Aid for the Democratic Party, a daughter-in-law and a grandson.  This
decision now means that I can't visit them ever again.
"I thin the U.S. State Department has a duty to explain to me why my
presence in the United States was welcome only three weeks ago but now
isn't.
"What is so frightening to the U.S. State Department about the
Adams-Hume deliberations which are, I believe, the only genuine prospect
of a lasting peace in Ireland?", Councillor Nelis concluded.

    Is this another example of American human rights violations??
    
    Or maybe it's because the American intelligence agencies (like their
    British counterparts) have some evidence that money collected from
    armed bank robberies is being directed to Sinn Fein.
    
    While on that subject, the Sunday Times, not known for it's whimsical
    journalism, had an article about America's biggest ever bank robbery
    which pointed out that the FBI knew of the Sinn Fein connections and
    criminal records of those currently waiting trial.
    Where do Sinn Fein get the money to afford jollies to the States every
    few weeks?
    Sounds like crocodile tears to me
    
    Shock,horror probe!!
    
    
    

    Hey
    
    Must have been hellish for these folks.  I mean imagine the poor
    innocent dears being spoken to rudely by a nasty immigration officer. 
    My heart bleeds for them.
    
    I really really think we should apologise most humbly for the upset and
    inconvenience caused to these poor innocent lambs.  Perhaps we should
    invite them over to Bournemouth for a holiday.  They could relax beside
    the pier (insert secret military target here).  Safe in the knowledge
    that all of NORAID's (charitible organisation located in Fairy Land)
    money buys ambulances (presumably to wait outside military chip shops)
    
    I mean some people think that some of this money goes to the IRA to
    fund their accidental campaign....
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

    
    Re: 1289.8
    
     > The Sunday Times not known for it's whimsical journalism.
    
    Alas The Sunday Times is not the great paper it was prior to it's
    purchase by Rupert Murdoch in the 80's who also owns The Sun. 
    
    It espouses the British Government's views on most things political
    especially the political situation in Ireland. So it would not be 
    as impartial as , say, The Guardian would be.
    
    Great Magazine though!
    
    Des   

re. .8
 No, it's an example of the British governments disgusting
 influence on U.S. foreign policy.

 There is no connection between Sinn Fein or Irish
 Northern Aid and the Rochester robbery.  It's 
 irresponsible journalist, and an over-zealous FBI
 who are trying desperately at the urging of the
 British government, to find a connection.

                            Mark


 

    
    Well we are all quite reassured on that score now! Thanks Mark!
    

    
    Btw, where's your news piece on the big arms grab? I thought you'd be
    telling us how this was just to divert attention from British govt
    collusion with other paramil arms importers. I think I'm rather shocked! 
    

 re. .9
   Why Bruce, did you type that yourself, or was it
 word for word from the mis-informed British gutter 
 press?

   Now, I somehow could guess that you would whine
 like a stuck pig, if John Major was yanked bodily
 off a U.S. flight, Visa revoked, if say, the Irish
 government decided that it would be bad for British
 Americans to hear what he has to say.

   The important thing to remember here, is that this
 trip was a chance for Sinn Fein to inform the
 American community on the Hume-Adams peace initiative.
 The British government is so afraid of this
 initiative, that they not only ban Adams from Britain,
 but beg the U.S. government to ban democraticaly
 elected officials who might inform Americans of this
 initiative.

                   Mark
  

    
    Hey
    
    Mark guess what us Scots can type and unlike yourself who obviously
    spends hours swotting up on the British Gutter Press thus enabling you
    to tell us all that it is Gutter Press,  I tend not to study it.
    
    Personaly I wouldn't give a monkey if John Major got hauled of a US
    jet,  even if it was dropping Napalm on villages (oops of course you
    don't believe that the Americans did this do you Mark).
    
    If only you could understand what a complete Pratt you make yourself
    appear to be every time you state that Sinn Fein have no connection
    with the IRA.  As for Gerry Adams he has shown over and over again
    where his sympathies lie.  He didn'tr volunteer to carry the coffins of
    the "accidental" chip shop bombing did he Mark !!
    
    No he preffered to show the whole world two fingers safe in the
    knowledge that people like yourself would attempt to give him credit.
    
    I know this will come as a big shock to you Mark.  But your buddies who
    blow up shops with bombs in waste baskets just do not carry any weight
    over here.  I would doubt whether they carry any weight anywhere apart
    from your bedroom Mark.
    
    So why not get on your Uniform Black Balaclava worn back to front so
    that you dont have to look at who you blow up, Put on your Brave
    Freedom Fighters Medallion,  borrow a few bucks from NORAID (call it a
    charitible donation) and come over to Ireland.  You have the
    opportunity to do what Gerry Adams (Peace as long as it's my kind of
    peace) can't do.
    
    These people need your confidence Mark they want to hear you tell them
    about the accidents,  the mistakes the misunderstanding.  They need to
    know about what it's like to sit 6000 miles and talk pure and utter
    Kak.
    
    So come on Mark put your comic books in your ruksack and yor feet where
    your mouth is and come over.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce
    

    
>    Mark guess what us Scots can type and unlike yourself who obviously
                     ^^
                     we, we Scots can type

     I'm not too worried about the rest of them, just you Bruce.
                      
>    Personaly I wouldn't give a monkey if John Major got hauled of a US
>    jet, 

     I would. I believe that freedom of speech applies to all, even
     the likes of a state-terrorist, like a British prime minister.

>    even if it was dropping Napalm on villages (oops of course you
>    don't believe that the Americans did this do you Mark).

     Vietnam I believe.  What's you point? As if you had one.
   
>    No he preffered to show the whole world two fingers safe in the
>    knowledge that people like yourself would attempt to give him credit.

     Better than sitting, one finger happy like yourself.


                      Mark


    

    Mark
    
    Obviously your years away from the UK have reduced your understanding
    of how we communicate.  "Us Scots"  as opposed to "we Scots"  is I
    believe acceptable grammar.
    
    However I notice that you fail in your charachteristic fashion to
    adress any of the points.  As per usual when proven wrong you attempt
    to justify your Brave Freedom Fighters Campaign by havaing a pop at
    what you believe is a grammatical error.
    
    Like Oh Iv'e blown you up.  Thank god I thought for one awful moment
    you were going to say Oh I blew you up.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

 re. .17

>However I notice that you fail in your charachteristic fashion to
>adress any of the points.

 The only point in your note was the one sitting on top of your
 head.
 Unless you seriously consider: U.S. use of Napalm, a British press
 attack on Gerry Adams (which anyone with a brain has already dismissed),
 comments about my bedroom, another invite to come and visit (when
 I've already been), or best of all an assumption that I have any
 comic books?

 So in summary, Bruce, what was your point?  Do you know what a point
 is?  And most importantly, are you the reason <next unseen> was
 invented?

                       Mark

    Re' last
    
    Well done Mark.  First prize goes to the person who can spot where you
    have answered a question or a point stated in this conference, without
    first attacking another issue.
    
    My point that you cannot or will not recognise is that your continued
    assertions and Generalisations when using the phrase British Press.  I
    have to assume that you think that all News Papers in the UK attack
    Gerry Adams.
    
    I also have to assume that you believe that all people who live in the
    UK religiously follow John Majors every word and policy.
    
    However Mark as all can see,  I have to believe that you should not
    be given any credibility when you enter notes telling us that the IRA's
    practice of bombing civilians in mainland UK  is accidental.
    
    So lets here it Mark.  You like to have things nice and clear, so do I.
    
    Please answer the following.  Trying not to mention British or Press or
    grammar.  Focus your mind Mark.  Suprise yourself Make us believe you. 
    Simply answer the questions.
    
    a) Do you believe hand on heart that Gerry Adams has no links with the
       IRA.  ?? 
    
	
    b) Do you believe that the IRA do not ever intentionally target innocent
       civilians. ??
    
    c) Do you believe that none of the money collected by NORAID is used to
       support terrorist activities.
    
    
    e) Will you ever enter cuttings that do not fully support your views.
    
    f) When was the last time you visited.
    
    	
    Have a nice day.
    
    Bruce
    
    PS:  Mark surely you know that all us facist Brits have pointed heads. 
         You must have seen us all on your last visit.  
    

    Back to the original topic, I still don't think it's appropriate
    or fair to ban people on account of their beliefs.  If these Sinn
    Fein'ers committed some crime, then arrest them, convict them, and
    stick them in jail.  I don't see the benefits of banning and censoring
    individuals.  It only prolongs the conflict.  It's counterproductive
    to peace in Ireland.  In fact, it probably will have just the opposite
    effect here in the US and garner more Irish-American sympathy and
    support.
    
    And the argument that Sinn Fein supports the IRA who targets civilians
    can be equally applied to any other group (other paramilitaries,
    British Army, RUC, etc.) in NI.  It's a two-way street.

    
    There's not the equivalence you think there is, as I've argued with you
    before without much in the way of a rebuttal. It's quite pointless to 
    argue with you about it again. 
    

 re. .20
  I think you've summed it up nicely.
              Mark

re. .19
    
>    My point that you cannot or will not recognise is that your continued
>    assertions and Generalisations when using the phrase British Press.

     Sorry, I, and I suspect other readers are having trouble understanding
     what you are trying to say.

       
>    a) Do you believe hand on heart that Gerry Adams has no links with the
>       IRA.  ?? 

     I think Mr. Adams has a credibility, and respectability from much of
     the nationalist community.  I think that the Provisional IRA are 
     fighting for the nationalist community.  Put the two statements
     together, and I think that Mr. Adams might garner credibility and
     respect from the Provisional IRA.  Enough, so that the Hume-Adams 
     initiative might stand a chance, if the British hadn't squashed it.
    
	
>    b) Do you believe that the IRA do not ever intentionally target innocent
>       civilians. ??

     I do not believe that the IRA intentionally target innocent civilians.
     For the simple reason that this does more harm to their cause, than
     good.
    
>    c) Do you believe that none of the money collected by NORAID is used to
>       support terrorist activities.

     I believe that none of the money collected by NORAID is used to 
     support terrorist activities.  If it were, the U.S. government which
     regularly scrutinizes all charitable organizations, would have shut
     it down by now.  I do believe that the British government find
     it offensive that a U.S. based organization might provide money for
     legal and financial aid to the nationalists that it so likes to 
     convict.
    
    
>    e) Will you ever enter cuttings that do not fully support your views.

     Who ever said that cuttings I have entered fully supports my views?
     I try to enter information so others can be informed, and form
     their own opinions.
    
>    f) When was the last time you visited.

     1989, why has it moved since then?
    
    	
>    Have a nice day.

     Will do, keep working on the typing.
    
                                 Mark  
    

> No, it's an example of the British governments disgusting
> influence on U.S. foreign policy.

Nah, U.S. foreign policy couldn't be influenced by a third world, fifth rate
country like Britain.

PS It's "government's"

Helpfully,

Dave

Author:      KOALA::HOLOHAN     
Number:      1289.11      Created: 24-Nov-1993 10:34am           Replies: 24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is no connection between Sinn Fein or Irish
> Northern Aid and the Rochester robbery.  It's 
> irresponsible journalist, and an over-zealous FBI
> who are trying desperately at the urging of the
> British government, to find a connection.
>
>                            Mark


You seem very sure of the facts Mr. Holohan.  Where were you and what were 
you doing when the robbery took place ?   Are these you bundles of 
bank-notes Mr. Holohan ?  I think you'd better come down the nick sunshine.


P.C Bloggs   :-)

 

    Hi Guys
    
    No Point intended here !!!!
    
    According to the Nasty British Press who print only lies.....
    
    The Untruthful folks over here have seized a huge great quantity of
    arms destined for use by the UVF.
    
    This must be a lie.
    
    Why...
    
    Well 
    
    a)  It was in a British News Paper.
    
    b)  It does not say that they were going to the IRA.
    
    c)  No mention of folks with pointed heads was made in the article.
    
    Re Mr Holohans comments...
    
    How pleased and relieved I am to here that you have complete faith in
    the US Goverment's (note the correct use of grammar Mark) ability to audit
    NORAIDS Funds.
    
    So let me see now the (oppressed no jobs no money people you
    continually refer to) spend their dole money on Kalashnikovs, and
    Semtex.
    
    Oh Mark I know you would not have forgotten to post the articles in the
    US papers reffering to the Brinks Security raid.  I expect you'll be
    entering those later ??
                                               
    In case it escapes your mind CNN had a very interesting article last
    night which used terms like NORAID, IRA, Preist, etc strangely all
    in connection with this accidental robbery.  
    
    Let me guess Mark CNN is in fact owned by John Major.
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce  
    
    

    
    And well done to the authorities too. The arms and explosive find was
    welcomed by all constitutional parties in the north except the DUP.
    
    Denis.

    
    re .26, question already asked and filed with the 1,000 others in the
    'pending-deep-thought'  in-folder. See .13.
    

    
    You guys can be so insensitive at times. Posting articles that imply
    that the security services have once again colluded with armed
    factions. What are you trying to do?, drive poor Holohead mad!!
    
    
    I agree with DARCY (sorry, christian name escapes me) I think the
    international operation and co-operation that went into this arms
    heist, proves that MI5 and our security services are determined that
    civil war will not be allowed to happen in NI. The UVF et al, have
    already said that if any deal is done with Dublin that they will take
    to the streets, at least they won't have this little lot to play with
    now.
    As for CNN and the bank robbers, I think anyone who thinks that there
    is no connection between American fund raisers and nationalists in NI
    must be out of their trees. If Noraid is not involved, some other
    organisation most certainly is.
    Is CNN an American government puppet? doubt it!
    
    Anyway, here's a question. By what mandate do the nationalists carry on
    an armed struggle against the invader? Are Sinn Fein the majority party
    in Eire or NI? Do the people in Ireland support a united Replublic?
    I don't think they do but i don't know. Anybody want to volunteer an
    answer or start a new note? Or is there one already?

    Hey Billy
    
    Surely you know as does Mr Holhan That the IRA are at WAR !! 
    
    They proudly proclaim that they are fighting a war.
    
    Now Billy, as you know the rules of war are ...
    
    1)  I can blow up people who are not involved.
    
    2)  You are not allowed to shoot at me just because I am shooting at
        you.
    
    Example....
    
    Oh..  Here comes a military looking chip shop (substitute railway
    station,  Shopping Centre etc)
    
    Hmm.. Lets blow it up.  Take care though we better blow it up at
    mid-day just in case we blow up any innocent people.
    
    Hummphhh.. How can we afford the explosives to destroy this military
    chip shop out of our dole money.....
    
    Well no point in asking NORAID because they show all their records to
    the US Goverment.  
    
    Oh well we better just use what Holohan uses.
    
    Yep.
    
    Pass the B***Sh*T.
    
    Meanwhile on planet Earth.  At Holohans Worldwide (I like that I'll
    print it) Press research headquarters..
    
    
    Hang on guys somebody out there is using poor grammar.
    Follow me folks I lived in the UK until I was 14,  
    I know all about how the BRAVE FREEDOM FIGHTERS operate in war.  
    Hey in 1989 I even went over for a visit.  So trust me guys I know 
    that the UK is being conned by a bunch of people who have never 
    experienced the troubles in the way I have. 
    
    Ah well Bill.  Feel sorry for Mark.  I mean tommorrow he could be up
    against an armed Jay walker,  or a Brinks robber disguised as a Priest.
    
    We only have to face the SEMTEX.  No Contest.  But it gives you a good
    laugh.
    
    
    Bruce. who has just been told that his train is delayed due to a BOMB
    scare.
    
    Well as I can't get home I could phone up and accuse British Rail of a
    BOOMB SCAR.
    
    No, I think I should cause a hoax grammatical grammar scare.  That would
    brown Holohans pants more than the real thing.
    
       	

    
    I don't think Mark should really be criticizing other folks' grammar
    anyway (ext/auth= *.* - you won't have to look far).
    

    
    Hullo Brooce,
    Just fought id huv some grammur fun me self and leaf out sum
    punkchewation and make some smelling misteaks.
    
    hope yoor boomb scars dinnae turn intae real scars! ken whit a mean?
    
    maybe we aughtae call Massatwotits, Disnaeland. Disnae support the IRA
    Disnae fund raise for the IRA
    Disnae have a clue
    
    still, there is at least one tit in Boston!
    
    Bevvy?

    
    Ehhhhh
    
    See the trouble wi yooo Billy iz simple Yoov bin thinkin that Mark wiz
    Irish  kent  somethin aboot the place.  Fact iz so did I.  Christ
    If I'd known he wiz an English Teecher an that, ad never have taken the
    P***.
    
    Ehh Yoo still readin them facist anti everybody else in the world
    papers.  Get wize man Get stuck intae the Sun mare noows on page three
    than a years supply of Marks Guff. 
    
    Broose
    
    Gotti go noo MABOZZARITCHI !!! 
                                      

    Hi folks,
    
    Can anyone tell me if there has ever been such an interception of arms
    destined for the UVF before ? If so then how many times and how did the
    shipment compare in size to the current catch ?
    
    Eddie.

    
    No, all previous shipments were escorted to their destination by the
    the Royal Navy, to make sure they got there safe and sound. Only on
    this occasion, knowing they'd be found out if they tried this collusion
    stuff, did they impound the ship. Then they had to make a very
    apologetic phone call to the UDA, hoping they'd understand etc. etc.
    and promising the next one would get through, as Britain still wanted
    the loyalists to carry on their terrorist campaign to complement the
    British Army's own state sponsored terrorist, fascist campaign against
    the heroic freedom fighters.
    

    
    Actually, I don't know if they impounded any arms shipments before. I
    imagine they did, though probably not of this magnitude, but then the
    demand for weapons by the protestant paramilitaries hasn't been as
    great before, as they're now anticipating a sellout and are arming
    accordingly. Sinn Fein and the IRA have accused Britain of conspiring
    to aid delivery of weapons from South Africa and Israel, charges vehemently
    denied by the British govt.
    

    
    Eddie,
    I think we only get to hear about the "major's". No pun intended. 
    It's also inconceivable that the security services don't know who is
    doing the gun running on both sides. They must have info on everybody
    even remotely connected to paramilitaries on both sides. I think they
    know alright but they probably have a great deal of difficuilty proving
    it which is why some of it goes "missing". They probably hope to catch
    the end user!
    
    Mind you, with so much mis-information flying about, maybe none of us
    know anything at all about what is going on.
    That is everyone except yours truly of course and all his unbiased
    newspaper reports! i don't bloody well think!
    

    Obviously you people are too sharp since you have correctly spotted the
    implication of my question :-)
    
    An eternal cynic like myself could be forgiven for noticing that the
    timing of the interception of these arms could enhance the British
    Government's credibility in the eyes of the IRA/Sinn Fein and could be
    designed to get them back to the negotiating table. It seems to me that
    all of the connections between the Polish secret service, MI5, MI6 and
    British Customs & Excise couldn't have been put together so fast and so
    recently that this shipment was the first they ever found. Does anyone
    else smell a rat or have I just been reading this conference for too
    long ?
    
    Eddie.
    

    
    hey Eddie,
    When you get rats crawling around you're almost bound to smell them.
    The dirty tricks brigade are masters at mis-information so nothing
    surprises me at all.
    
    Bill

 re. .38

  A news program detailing British Intelligence
  collusion with the Loyalist murder gangs and the
  "slipping through" of South African arms for the
  loyalist was BBC's Inside Ulster Programme, 
  on January, 1993.

  British intelligence alleged a breakdown of their
  own intelligence and surveilance services.  The
  shipment, it was reported, had been monitored by 
  British Intelligence from South Africa to northern
  Ireland, but a breakdown occurred when it arrived 
  and they lost trace of it.  The report pointed out
  how the South African weapons have enhanced the 
  killing capacity of loyalist paramilitaries.
  
  Of course, this is only one of the incidents where
  British intelligence has probably colluded with
  Loyalist terrorists in arms shipments.  There were
  some 6000 weapons in this shipment that "accidently
  slipped through".

  But I'm sure the "capture" of 300 weapons from Poland
  is good for the press, and Britain's current political
  game.

                   Mark

    
    Ho hum, no evidence at all.. just a fervent desire to believe the worst
    and a program from the BBC that you'd be quick to condemn if it tried
    to make the opposite case. You're utterly predictable at least.
    
    Not that it couldn't have happened at some level mind you, just that
    you have no evidence for it, none at all.
    

    
    I'm a native of Rochester, NY which now seems to be the armored car
    robbery capital (three in 18 months!). When I was home visiting, I saw
    the following article which I thought had much more detail than I had
    seen in the wire service stories. So, I've typed in the whole thing
    (290 lines but who's counting) for your curiosity and edification.
    
    Just some handy hints:
    	In the US, the prosecutor (in this case, the FBI) files an
    	affidavit which argues that a crime has occurred and that certain
    	people have been identified. The affidavit is read by the grand
    	jury who are just plain folks who then discuss the charges and
    	issue an indictment. The indictment lists the laws broken and names
    	the alleged breakers.
    
    	Irondequoit and Greece are suburbs of Rochester. Manhattan and
    	Queens are sections of New York City, a good 350 miles from
    	Rochster.
    
    
    
[Reprinted without permission from the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle,
No 21, 1993]

		FBI Still Chasing Brink's Case
	Ties between suspects, IRA aren't clear

By Gary Craig, Valerie Smith, and Steve Mills
Staff writers for the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle

The robbery of the Brink's Inc depot in Rochester has been portrayed as a
tale of international intrigue, a story of three disparate men held
together by their passion for their Irish heritage and their willingness to
risk imprisonment to funnel money to the cause.

That, of course, is a version not spelled out in federal affidavits or
other court papers. But it is a version--fueled by unauthorized disclosures
from authorities-- that makes splashy headlines, good television, and
tabloid fodder.

Official charges against the three men accused of robbing the Brink's depot
of $7.4 million, however, fall short of such a sensational saga.

"There's been an ongoing feud between the (United States) government and
any activity that smacks in any shape and form of not just support, but
interest in Northern Ireland," said Frank Durken, who was the initial
attorney for one of the Brink's suspects, New York City resident Stephen
Ignatious Millar. "They've spent fortunes prosecuting people on this side."

Wednesday, Millar, retired Rochester detective Thomas F. O'Connor and the
Rev. Patrick Moloney of New York City were indicted by a federal grand jury
for their alleged involvement in the robbery Jan. 5 at the depot, 370 South
Ave.

The holdup--the fifth-largest robbery of an armored car company in U.S.
history -- was spectacular in its own right, featuring masked gunmen and a
bold abduction of one of the Brink's employees, who turned out to be
O'Connor.

The indictment now alleges that the 54-year-old O'Connor, an Irondequoit
resident who had been working for Brink's for close to three years when the
robbery occurred, participated in it.

Moloney,61, and Millar,39, are accused of receiving the stolen money.
Federal officials allege that they watched the pair going to and from a
Manhattan apartment, where about $1.5 million of the missing Brink's money
was later found.

All three have pleaded innocent, and the case appears far from closed.
Federal agents and New York City police have searched the apartment of
Moloney's brother, and they attempted to track money orders to recover the
missing Brink's money.

"Aggressive investigation is still proceeding," a spokesman for the FBI in
New York City, Richard DeFilippo, said Friday.  "The case is far from
resolved."

The Role of NORAID

So far, the ties among O'Connor, Millar, and Moloney are vague, at least as
far as court documents and the public statements of the authorities are
concerned.

One of the men -- Millar-- was jailed and could not be contacted this week.
Moloney was released late Friday and did not return messages. O'Connor has
declined interview requests.

But the government has built much of its case on a connection that stems
from a meeting between O'Connor and Millar that allegedly took place in
Ireland a decade ago.

Nothing is known about the meeting, but it allegedly paved the way for
O'Connor to smuggle Millar into the United States, according the
government's affidavit.

Millar later settled in New York City, where he became friends with
Moloney.

The five-count indictment makes no mention of Northern Ireland and the
Irish Northern Aid Committee (NORAID), which authorities have suggested was
another link between the men, though there were many reference in the
affidavit.

But according to federal officials, all three were NORAID members.

NORAID is based in the United States, and its officials say that it only
collects funds for humanitarian purposes, such as supporting families of
political prisoners.

The NORAID chapter here is small and hard to follow, and many of its
members prefer not to discuss the group.  Rochester lawyer Culver K. Barr
said that about a dozen people regularly attend NORAID functions these
days, and the organization is less active and visible than it was in the
early 1980s.

Some Links Unclear

The FBI affidavit also claims that O'Connor met Millar during a 1983 tour
of Northern Ireland, and the next year, with Greece resident Cahal Magee,
helped to smuggle him into the United States.

The government has not provided evidence of any recent relationship between
O'Connor and Millar, though Millar reportedly lived in the Rochester area
for a time.

Millar also used two aliases, according to the affidavit.

One of them -- Andre Singleton--still lists Cahal Magee's Greece address as
his, according to state Department of Motor Vehicle records. That address
also is shown in DMV records as the home of Millar's girlfriend, Bernadette
Fennell, whose minivan the government believes may have been used in the
robbery.

Magee, who has declined to be interviewed, has been accused of having
links to the IRA by prosecutors handling a criminal case agains his
brother, Liam Magee, a musician who often plays in Rochester.

So far, officials have not revealed any connections between O'Connor and
Moloney.

"The only O'Connor I know is the cardinal of New York," Moloney told the
weekly Irish Voice newspaper in a telephone interview from jail that was
published Wednesday.

Smugglers' hot spot

Moloney, who was ordained a priest of the Melkite Order in 1977, was
arrested in Ireland three years later on charges that he and his brother,
John, tried to smuggle weapons into the country from the United States.  He
was never tried, but John Moloney was convicted and served time in prison.

Court documents do not not say how O'Connor and Magee smuggled Millar to
America, but presumably the point of entry was Canada -- a hot spot for
illegal immigrants seeking a path into this country.

Millar, according to the court documents, could not get a visa to come to
the United States because he had previously served six years in prison in
Northern Ireland for firearms and explosives violations.

"Alien smuggling continues through the Niagara point of entry," said Dennis
Peruzzini of the Buffalo office of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization
Service. "But in this area, there's not a great amount of Irish
immigration, legally or illegally."

Peruzzini said there had not been an earlier investigation into the
smuggling of Millar into the U.S., and agents on the Brink's case say it is
not central to their inquiry.

Instead, they are pursuing the elements not yet resolved: discovering how
many people were involved in the robbery; finding the roughly $5.1 million
not yet recovered; and determining whether the heist was motivated by
terrorism or greed.

Defense lawyers in the case suggest that the specter of an IRA robbery
could be a screen to mask weaknesses in the case. British authorities in
Northern Ireland have been accused of using the political fight as a cover
for harsh treatment of suspects in the struggle there.

'A stack of money'

Reward money posted after the Brink's heist had climbed to $750,000 by the
time the three men were arrested, but none of it will be claimed.
Authorities contend that no information from the public proved decisive.

But now, with three men charged and investigators on the trail of the rest
of the money, authorities are hoping this will change.

A new reward of $200.000 has been posted for recovery of the remaining
cash and information leading to convictions of others involved in the
heist.

"That's one of the major thrusts of the investigation,"said DeFilippo, of
the FBI. "There was a lot of money seized, but there's a lot of money
outstanding."

It would seem that the strongest part of the government's case centers on
the recovered money.

Federal officials claim that on several occasions they saw Moloney and
Millar enter a Manhattan apartment where more than a million dollars was
later found.

On Aug. 5, officials allege, Millar took duffel bags and a backpack to the
apartment. About three months later, the two went into the apartment with a
plastic bag that appeared to have a money counter inside. Agents listening
at the door heard sounds that appeared to be a money counter at work.

Moloney left the apartment in a rental car and "was observed waiting at a
stop light...counting a stack of money." the affidavit states.

Earlier, Millar had been seen buying money orders and using cash to fund
vacations to Hawaii and Florida for his family, the government alleges.

An estimated $4000 was found in a suitcase belonging to a woman traveling
with Millar's girlfriend, Fennell, to London. None of the money was seized,
bout one source said the woman carrying the cash was a relative of
Fennel--and may have even been her mother.

Fairly spartan lives

The government's tales of free-flowing currency conflict with other stories
of "Father Pat" Moloney, Millar, and O'Connor. all of whom lived fairly
spartan or, at most, middle-class lives.

In 1956, the gray-haired priest founded Lazarus House, a center for
homeless and troubled youth on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. He was a
selfless man, friends say, who gave freely to others.

Millar ran a comic book store in Queens, just blocks from the apartment he
shared with Fennell and three children. He apparently does not have the
means to hire a private lawyer, so his case now is being handled by a
public defender.

O'Connor, who has not worked since the robbery, had nothing else to put up
but his house in return for pre-trial freedom, his lawyer Felix V Lapine,
argued.

"This $25,000 (in equity) in his house is all that he has," Lapine said.
Signing it over "puts everything on the line that he has."

Not the work of pros

Federal officials say they cannot ignore possible ties between the suspects
and the IRA.

The FBI's DeFilippo said that, given the history of the suspects, officials
have to consider whether they are connected to "a domestic terrorist
group."

But the affidavit alleges that the stolen money have have been used for
vacations and other personal items.

Officials allege that Moloney bought a $26,000 Ford Explorer with cash, and
that Millar paid for a $2,400 Hawaiian vacation for his family with $20
bills. The stolen money largely consisted of $20 bills.

International observers say such actions would not be tolerated if the
heist was sanctioned or orchestrated by the IRA, suggesting that greed may
have driven the robbery -- if, in fact, these three defendents are ever
convicted of committing it.

"It really looks like a freelance operation because it's been done so
amateurly," said Robert St. Cyr, a researcher and writer from Long Island.
"They spent so much on their personal lives, did things that would draw
attention to themselves."

St. Cyr, a vocal opponent of the IRA who has studied the Irish civil rights
movements since 1969, said IRA operations are typically better planned and
executed.

And in an IRA operation, the money would have been shipped overseas
immediately.

St. Cyr describes an ideological split in the Northern Irish support groups
-- between those who promote terrorism and those that do not. Dissident
factions of the groups wage their own battles, and it is possible the
Brink's money was channeled piecemeal to Ireland to finance one or more of
those, he said.

"My guess is that these guys are funding their own IRA," he said.

Talk about 'Irish stew'

Only Moloney, again in the Irish Voice, has spoken out, tackling the
allegations in any detail.

He denied having a hand in the robbery. He denied profiting from the
robbery or funneling any of the proceeds to Ireland. As for the Ford
Explorer, he said the vehicle was purchased with a check, a money order and
cash, and that he currently owes $20,000 on it.

Moloney did not, however turn aside charges that his is a vocal supporter of
Irish nationalism or that he knew Millar.

He often presides at NORAID events in New York and said, in the Irish
Voice, that he has been friends with Millar for years. In fact, he said he
baptized Millar's three children.

Whether the case turns out to be one of terrorism in support of the IRA may
be the focal point of arguments until the case comes to trial, although the
FBI acknowledged that is is working hard to determine if the organization
had a role.

Lapine charged Friday that the FBI is trying to buy time to develop a
better case.

"I think when you've got very little substantive to say, you try to cloud
up the waters," Lapine said. "We've got all this talk about Ireland and
clover and Irish stew. You know what they do in a kitchen...they cook up
stories."
END

  re. .42
   Thankyou for taking the time to enter that article.
   It's looking more and more like the FBI/INS are
   conducting a witch-hunt against Irish nationalists,
   and Americans who dare question British policy.

                         Mark