Conference tallis::celt

Somebody from University College Dublin sent me mail as follows:

       This was mentioned in todays Irish Times. The ad displayed the 
       following words on the screen:
        
       "Last night
        
       I was watching
        
       This foreign film
        
       About two sisters enduring
        
       The great potato famine
        
       And then I thought
        
       What the hell am I doing?
        
       There's a hockey game on"

Evening Press, 28 September 1994.

Sinead is right about the famine.

(Letter)

Sinead O'Connor's latest album has raised the subject of the Irish famine
of 1845-1849, and has prompted Dr. Mary Daly, Associate Professor of
Modern Irish History in UCD, to state that this was one of the most real
famines in modern history I disagree. My dictionary defines a famine as an
"extreme scarcity of food"; however there was no such scarcity of food in
Ireland during the years 1845-1849 (a period known as 'An Gorta Mor/The
Great Hunger'). During the above period and, indeed, during every famine
in Ireland, there was over-production of food, which was exported mostly
to England - 513,000 tonnes of grain exported in 1895, 284,000 tonnes in
1846, 146,000 in 1847 and 314,000 in 1848.

Also, vast sums of cash were removed from the Irish economy by English
landlords - for instance, in 1779, 732,000 left Ireland in rent revenue, at a
time when the country's total annual wealth was a little over l million.

English landlords refused to at least defer, or postpone, rent payments until
such time as matters improved in this country - had they done so, the
above money would have been used to help feed the starving wretched
millions and to treat those stricken by disease, as the old stable diet of
potato had helped the Irish to avoid diseases such as scurvy and
xerophthalmia pellagra, which were by now running rampant through the
Irish people.

Unfortunately, not only did British landlords and their Parliament refuse to
offer genuine assistance to the Irish, but it can be said that the British
Empire used Irish famines as opportunities to rationalise the Irish system
of land-holding.

For instance, during 'An Gorta Mor' , the Elizabethan and Cromwellian
wars laid waste the Irish land and its people and resulted in massive land
confiscations. The population was halved between 1845 and the turn of the
century. through famine, famine-related disease and enforced emigration.
More than five million people fled the country - 4,750,000 to America
370,000 to Australia and 70,000 to Canada.

At the peak of this famine the London Times wrote: "The Celt is going,
going with a vengeance; the Lord be praised. Soon an Irishman will be as
scarce on the banks of the Shannon as an Indian on the shore of
Manhattan."

However, international pressure was brought to bear on the British, and
they had to be seen to be doing something to assist the Irish; thus Sir
Charles Edward Trevelyan, Permanent head of the British Treasury, was
given the job of looking after the "relief effort." Not long after he started
his new job, Sir Charles stated: "The great evil with which we have to
contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the
selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the (Irish) people."

Other famines caused equal destruction - in 1841, Catholics owned more
than half the land of Ireland and amounted to seventy-five per cent of the
population; within the next sixty arras their land-holdings dropped to
between one-tenth and one-fifth of what it was in 1641. The September
1989 edition of the Economist stated that between 1801 and 1821 eight
million people left the country (32 Counties) due to famine and political
repression.

The above facts speak for themselves and, I believe, prove that Professor
Daly is wrong to state that "the Irish famine was a natural disaster brought
about by the failure of the potato crop". Rather, it was the failure of the
potato crop which was a "natural disaster," but the famine which followed
was manmade.

John Horan
Republican Sinn Fein,
41 Arran Quay,
Dublin 7.

    
    errm..Why does the term "chip on shoulder" come to mind here ???

    
    I think you'll find that human intervention (or lack of) exascerbates
    most, if not all, famines.  
    
    As for Sinead being right....well, there's a first time for everything.
    The last time I heard her ranting, she was blaming the Pope for the
    famine.  Talk about the professional victim.....
    
    Does anyone know how many Irish emigrated to Scotland during the
    famine(s) ? 

Sinead is a professional whinger who thinks the rest of the world
owes her something.  I have no respect for her whatsoever.  It must
be a mark of desperation for someone to look to her to reinforce
their views.

Chris.

>    Does anyone know how many Irish emigrated to Scotland during the
>    famine(s) ? 

I don't know, but why do you ask? Was there such a migration?

It is not a migration you would expect. The migration of Scots to Ulster was
often prompted by English landlords seizing their land. It is estimated that
400,000 Scots-Irish migrated to America in the 18th Century, mostly due to
 poverty and religious persection. The 19th Century Irish migration to
America was following a well trodden path.

Again, I don't know if there was a migration from Ireland to Scotland, but
if there was it is very much against the flow.

Mark

 re. .4

  "human intervention (or lack of)"
  
  Mark, 513,000 tonnes of grain exported in 1895, 284,000 tonnes in
  1846, 146,000 in 1847 and 314,000 in 1848.  That's
  not what I would call a lack of human intervention.
  In my book shipping food to England during the
  middle of a famine is criminal.

                    Mark

>Sinead is a professional whinger who thinks the rest of the world
>owes her something.  I have no respect for her whatsoever.  It must
>be a mark of desperation for someone to look to her to reinforce
>their views.

Sinead expressed her opinion, she just teared off a picture of the Pope,
she didn't shoot him as Ali Agcha` did but this last fellow seems to be
worth more forgiveness and understanding than her - ad she did paid the
act with a (definitive) break in her career.

I do respect her, as a person first and then as a singer.  It must rather
be a mark of integral church fiendness to condemn her just because she
thinks another way than you, and tells it around.

mf

It's not Sinead's opinions that I object to particularly, just the
way that she uses and manipulates tragic circumstances, both her own
and others', just for the sake of gaining herself publicity.  Hmm,
sounds like someone else we all know.

Chris.

Chris,

I dont think that Sinead's outbursts are made to gain publicity for herself.
Nobody would deliberately set out to gain such vilification and bad press from 
the media.

In 1 particular instance she was a victim of child abuse and has made strong
comments on this to bring attention to child abuse sufferers.

Sometimes maybe she should think before she speaks as she has a habit of putting her
her Doc Martens in it but I believe she has a lot of tragedy in her life and she
speaks from the heart..

And she has a great voice :^)



Slan

Des

>>                     <<< Note 1267.6 by METSYS::THOMPSON >>>
>>
>>
>>  I don't know, but why do you ask? Was there such a migration?

    Well my maternal grandparents were Irish.  There is a huge Catholic
    community (mostly of Irish descent) in the Glasgow/West Coast area. 
    
    I would estimate that somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of Scotland's
    population fall into this category.

>>It is not a migration you would expect.
    
    Why not ??   If there is a terrible famine inyour land and you want to
    get out, the nearest neighbour seems the obvious choice to me.
    
      
>>    The migration of Scots to Ulster was
>>often prompted by English landlords seizing their land. 
    
    If you are talking about the highland clearances, then I don't think
    very many Scots went to Ulster.  At that time, most went to thw USA,
    Canada or Australia.  The Scots who went to Ulster, did so many years
    before the clearances, mostly around the time of the reformation.

>>Again, I don't know if there was a migration from Ireland to Scotland, but
>>if there was it is very much against the flow.

    I don't agree.   Could someone with a little more knowledge than me
    check the numbers please ?
    
    
    Mark

    

    You're right Mark, there was substantial migration of
    Ulster Irish to Scotland, working everything from farms,
    mines, basic industry, etc... Some migration was seasonal
    (summers only) but most ended up being permanent.  And I
    think most of the migration was Catholics and from the more
    rural areas of Ulster. At least that's what I've heard.
    I know that many people from Donegal have relatives in
    Scotland. I'd also be interested in numbers too if anyone
    has them.
    
    /g
             

>And she has a great voice :^)

I feel myself forced to admit she does have some redeeming features!
Cheers,

Chris.

re: .11

>    I would estimate that somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of Scotland's
>    population fall into this category.

Interesting, I am surprised it's that high.


>>It is not a migration you would expect.
>>    
>>    Why not ??   If there is a terrible famine inyour land and you want to
>>    get out, the nearest neighbour seems the obvious choice to me.

Why would you want to go to a land where people were already emigrating
due to poverty? You would want to go to a land of plenty. Also as Scotland
was the source of the protestants in Ulster, going there would be like
jumping from the frying pan to the fire.
Btw, that's why I would not expect people to go there, I'm not questioning
your assertion that they actually did!



      
>>    The migration of Scots to Ulster was
>>often prompted by English landlords seizing their land. 
    
>    If you are talking about the highland clearances, then I don't think
>    very many Scots went to Ulster.  At that time, most went to thw USA,
>    Canada or Australia.  The Scots who went to Ulster, did so many years
>    before the clearances, mostly around the time of the reformation.

No I'm not referring to the Highland Clearances (which is not to say they
those people didn't go to Ulster). The Scots-Irish were the Scots Border
people. Their flight to America was from about 1704 to 1776 (it halted with
the American Revolution). It was said that Scots-Borderers were a tough bunch,
those expelled to Ulster were the worst (from the English perspective) of
that group. So called "Double distilled".

During that period Highland Scots were grouped with Catholic Irish as
"persona non-grata". Some American Colonies banned them.


>>Again, I don't know if there was a migration from Ireland to Scotland, but
>>if there was it is very much against the flow.

>    I don't agree.   Could someone with a little more knowledge than me
 >   check the numbers please ?

I have no numbers for Ireland to Scotland but the number of 400,000 from
ULster to America is fairly well authenticated.

   
M

>Why would you want to go to a land where people were already emigrating
>due to poverty? You would want to go to a land of plenty. Also as Scotland
>was the source of the protestants in Ulster, going there would be like
>jumping from the frying pan to the fire.
>Btw, that's why I would not expect people to go there, I'm not questioning
>your assertion that they actually did!
    
    People were leaving the highlands due to poverty.  However, the Central
    Belt (Glasgow-Edinburgh area) was relatively prosperous.  There was a
    lot of heavy industry (shipbuilding, steelworks,etc) and thus plenty of
    jobs. Sure, some of the living conditions wre terrible, but there must
    have been something going for the place !!
    
    As for the "frying-pan into the fire", Scotland is actually quite a
    tolerant place.  I am actually quite proud of the way Scotland has
    absorbed such a huge emigrant population without the trouble that this
    has caused in other countries.   I am not saying that we don't have any
    religious strife, but fortunately, this is largely confined to soccer
    stadia.
    
    Don't think that because Ulster Protestants came from Scotland, the
    Scotland is a country full of budding Ian Paisleys.  Nothing could be
    further from the truth.
    
    
    Mark 

Perhaps timescales were different?

Scots-Irish to America -> 18th Century
Irish to America       -> 19th Century (Famine)
Irish to Britain       -> 20th Century ?  (I know there was a mini-migration
					    to staff the WW2 munitions 		
  	     factories) e.g. Burghfield, Near Reading,.

I thought about the football comment afterwards. Is Celtic are the Protestant
team and Rangers the Catholic one? (hope I didn't get it the wrong way around).

M 

    
    Irish ro Scotland  ->  If I remember correctly, there have been two
    waves, one at either end of the 19th century.
    
>>I thought about the football comment afterwards. Is Celtic are the Protestant
>>team and Rangers the Catholic one? (hope I didn't get it the wrong way around).
    
    Football teams the wrong way round I'm afraid, but don't worry.  It's
    all hyped up anyway.
    
    Mark

    
    I think the City of Glasgow's peak population of around 1.75 million
    was due to a flood of people from both Ireland and the Highlands of 
    Scotland from the late 1800's onto the early 1900's
    I read somewhere that the Catholic population of Scotland was roughly
    an 1/8th and the majority of this came as a result of the surge of
    people in the late 1800's.
    
    To say the Irish people were welcomed into Scotland with open arms is
    perhaps a little untrue infact they were shunned by the mining and
    ship building industries almost entirely.Most that arrived in Glasgow 
    could not find work easily and had to queue on a daily basis at the
    docks for work unloading boats .
    
    Graeme....
    

    re-1
    
    Graeme,
    	   There are still lassies in Edinburgh who queue at Leith
           Docks waiting for the ships to unload,before they can get any
           work and this is 1994 !!!!   :-)
    
     SQF Jambo #1

RE: .15

>    As for the "frying-pan into the fire", Scotland is actually quite a
>    tolerant place.  I am actually quite proud of the way Scotland has
>    absorbed such a huge emigrant population without the trouble that this
>    has caused in other countries.   I am not saying that we don't have any
>    religious strife, but fortunately, this is largely confined to soccer
>    stadia.

As far as Irish emigrating to Scotland, after all, they are cousin celtic's. In
a previous note someone mentioned that many people from Donegal have relations
in Scotland. There have alway been strong links between Scotland and the coastal
regions of Northern Ireland. If your were of a traveling mind, it was often
easier to go by boat to Scotland and the Isles, than to inland regions of
Ireland. So from previous comments, interestingly, the emigration seem to have
been both way at different time in history. As for the Catholic/Protestant
divide well that's Irish (/Scottish?) history...

Now for the contentious bit... 
I have worked and lived in both Belfast and Dublin. At one level they are so
similar and at another level very different (take the accents for starters).
The humour the 'crack' (the non-illegal type) is great in both cities, (I do
hope the two city have closer relations because they make perfect twins). But my
question is how much of the northern culture has been influenced by the Scots???

/Peter/

                          PRESS RELEASE
               POLITICAL EDUCATION COMMITTEE (PEC)
         of the AMERICAN IRISH EDUCATION FOUNDATION INC.


for immediate release
JULY 19, 1995

contact:
Sandy Carlson
(914) 947-2726
54 South Liberty Drive
Stony Point, New York
10908

          PEC CALLS ON BRITISH GOVERNMENT TO APOLOGIZE
       FOR IRELAND'S GREAT HUNGER AND TO AID PEACE PROCESS


     The American irish Political Education Committee (PEC) has
called on the British government to apologize to the Irish people
and the Irish diaspora for the neglect that caused the death and
dispersal of millions of Irish people during the mid-nineteenth
century.

     In a letter to British Ambassador Robin Renwick, PEC John J.
Finucane says, "{s}uch an apology would ge in keeping with
current worldwide reconciliation efforts. After all, it is our
time that has seen the Southern Baptist Convention (USA)
apologize for its past support of slavery. Germany has apologized
to the Jewish race for Nazi atrocities. Japan apologized for
wartime abuses against Korean women. There are wise international
healing gestures... {An} apology for the Great Hunger could have
an immense healing effect to the benefit of us all in the long
run."

      Pointing to the relevance of this gesture at this juncture
of the English-Irish peace process, Mr. Finucane said, "The
British government neglected the irish people during the Great
Hunger in the same way the current British government is
neglecting the desire of the Irish people for inclusive and
immediate political dialogue."

     The PEC hopes that, once the British acknowledge their
responsibility for the neglect that caused the Great Hunger, they
will accept the need for an impartial negotiator to broker the
peace process. "The British government were not and are not
objective players in Ireland," he said. "The introduction of
objective negotiators to the peace process will resolve the
current impasse in the English-Irish peace process." Mr. Finucane
said Britain's acknowledging their responsibility could hasten
the final settlement in Ireland.

     The PEC, a committee of the American Ireland Education
Foundation, has been promoting an awareness of the Great Hunger
since 1983. The organization worked closely with eh late Thomas
Gallagher, author of "Paddy's Lament", to educate the public
about the Great Hunger.

     The organization has commenced a long-term campaign to
influence the British government to respond to the 150th
anniversary of the Great Hunger.

     The first step in the campaign is the attached letter to
British Ambassador Robin Renwick asking for the apology. PEC has
also activated its national network, urging members to write to
the ambassador as well. PEC is planning additional letter-writing
and petition campaigns and urges other organizations to get
involved in similar commemoration events.

     For information on how you can participate in the
commemoration and to obtain copies of the petition, call (914)
947-2726.



                    *************************


July 19, 1995

The Honorable Robin Renwick
British Ambassador
British Embassy
3100 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC   20008


Dear Mr. Renwick,

     Various Irish-American groups, including ours, are
organizing commemorations of the 150th anniversary of the Irish
famine of the 1840's, which caused the death and dispersal of
millions of Irish people. To this day, the socio-economic and
political causes of that famine are a source of bitterness to
many Irish, particularly here in the U.S.

     We recall the subtitle of Tom Gallagher's popular book,
"Paddy's Lament", is "Prelude to Hatred". The British government
now has a wonderful opportunity to dispel those feelings and to
advance reconciliation in Ireland by simply recognizing the
failure of the then-existing administration to deal with "The
Great Hunger", to use Cecil Woodham-Smith's term. That is, to
apologize to the Irish for the political errors of the past that
caused so much human misery and poisoned British-irish relations
for such a long time.

     Such an apology would be in keeping with worldwide
reconciliation efforts. After all, it is our time that has seen
the Southern Baptist Convention apologize for its past support of
slavery. Germany has apologized to the Jewish race for nazi
atrocities. Japan apologized for wartime abuses against Korean
women. There are wise international healing gestures. We think
you will agree that such admissions reflect only favorably on
those making them.

     Our organization endorsed the principles of the Downing
Street Declaration with the great hope that its implementation
would put an end to the strife in Northern Ireland and lead to a
democratic settlement. Unfortunately, we have been disappointed
by the lack of movement in dealing with the substantial issues
mentioned in the Declaration and the subsequent Framework
Document. The needs of the Irish people must not be neglected.
This apology for the Great hunger could have an immense healing
affect to the benefit of us all in the long run. It is the right
thing to do after all these years.

     We would be glad to discuss this with you.

     sincerely,


     John Finucane
     National President
     Political Education Committee (PEC)


I sincerely hope that the Italians humbly apologise for invading England
a while ago.  And the Irish had better apologise to the Scots for their
massacre only slighly before that.  And the Jews should apologise for
inflicting all sorts of nasty things on the Egyptians.

Chris.

    
    
    	Where does all this apologising end ? Do the Scots apologise to the
    English for the battle of Banockburn 1314. Do the Campbells apologise
    to the McDonalds for the massacre at Glencoe. Do the English apologise
    to the Scots for the  Battle of Sheriffmuir 1715 and also the Battle of
    Culloden 1746. I dont think so......
    
    				AB

Well there is a contingent of British veterans and civilians in Japan
at this very moment, seeking a (very justified) apology from the
Japanese Govt. for WW2 attrocities.

As Finucane alludes to, apologies are in vogue at the moment. Would be a
shame if giving them is treated differently to receiving them.

M

  The Irish population was halved between 1845 and the turn of the
century. through famine, famine-related disease and enforced emigration.
More than five million people fled the country - 4,750,000 to America
370,000 to Australia and 70,000 to Canada.

  Yes, I'd say an apology was in order.  Japanese war crimes against 
British soldiers and civilians weren't even on this scale as British
crimes against the Irish people.

    
    I expect America will have to apologise to the rest of Europe shortly
    for lifting the arms embargo in Bosnia!!!!!!!!
    
    Funny isn't it. There's no oil in that part of the world and the yanks
    are nowhere to be seen.

    re.24
    
    there is a vast difference here. Japan killed or murdered 10-20 MILLION
    people including thousands of Brits.
    If they hadn't bombed Pearl harbour America would have let them get away
    with it!
    
    Bill

>
  Exactly. Thousands of Brits killed, and the British want an apology from
  the Japanese.  How many Irish starved to death by British policy (over
  a million?).  Now of course, this doesn't warrant a British apology.
  After all, we're not talking about British lives are we, only Irish ones.

    
    Mark
    It doesn't matter whose lives they are. But the two situations are
    entirely different as you are well aware. Some ex POWs are looking for
    an apology not the gov.
    And you could go on about similar famines in many places even now. I
    don't hear 747 planes screaming over head on route from Boston to
    Bosnia with holds full of grub! Think about that when you're having
    porter and a Bigmac tonight.
    
    munch munch        

It's not a Govt. looking for an apology in either case.

Re: Bosnia

Well that is Europe's back yard, it's Europe's mess to sort out and so far
they're not doing much of a job at it.

re: 747's full of grub

I would be surprised if the US is not doing that - do you know for
sure that no aid is being delivered?

M

>
> I would be surprised if the US is not doing that - do you know for
> sure that no aid is being delivered?

  Sure looked like U.S. planes to me, dropping food into Bosnia.
                    Mark

    re .30
    
    It's a U.N. problem not a European one. The USA is part of the UN but
    you wouldn't know it! No men, no aircraft just the usual sabre
    rattling.
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Here is a clipping from The Star-Ledger, Friday, Febuary 9, 1996

  New Jersey curricula on genocide to now include blacks, Indians, Irish
  By Angela Stewart

  " The group responsible for pushing the Irish curriculum in New Jersey
    is the Irish Famine Curriculum Coalition, which is headed by James Mullin, 
    a Burlington County educator.  Mullin, of Moorestown, said it is important
    that the story of the Irish be told because it was not the potato blight
    alone that resulted in some 800,000 to 1 million of Ireland's 8.1 million
    people starving to death between 1845 and 1849.

    While Ireland produced a yearly abundance of cattle and grain, the
    British exported most of this food, leaving the Irish to live on a
    single crop, the potato, contends "Paddy's Lament," one of the resource
    books used by the coaltion in formulating the curriculum.

    When in 1846 an uncontrollable disease turned the potato crop to slime,
    the Irish people appealed to their British governors for relief and
    instead received eviction and starvation and death, the book contends.

    Last year marked the 150th anniversary of the famine and Helen McClafferty
    of Nutley, another coalition member, said it is important to understand
    the mentality behind what she is convinced was genocide.

    Our interest is to promote among students an appreciation of human rights
    and the critical nature of ethical decision-making and to teach students
    how greed, political corruption and bigotry can destroy a race and a 
    country," she said.

Hey, what a great idea!  Let's stir up something nasty which happened 
centuries ago in an attempt to divert attention away from the IRA's terror 
campaign!

Chris.

> Hey, what a great idea!  Let's stir up something nasty which happened 
>centuries ago in an attempt to divert attention away from the IRA's terror 
>campaign!

 I'm sorry, is this conference only for discussing Irish Republican Army
 attacks?  I even buried the note in the Potato Famine string, so that I
 wouldn't offend any delicate English sensibilities.

 The article was dated Friday, Feb 9th, 1996.  It discusses a recent change
 to the curriculum of New Jersey schools.  One of those topics was the
 genocide against the Irish people.

 I noticed that you didn't dispute the genocide, just attempted to draw
 attention away from it.  

 Is the killing of 800,000 to 1 million Irish people, somehow less important
 than the killing of two English civilians?  I mean, even by English standards,
 1 million Irish people killed, must seem like a lot.  I can tell you that
 from an American point of view, it seems like a lot.

                                 Mark

> I'm sorry, is this conference only for discussing Irish Republican Army
> attacks?  I even buried the note in the Potato Famine string, so that I
> wouldn't offend any delicate English sensibilities.

just seemed like bad timing, that's all.

> I noticed that you didn't dispute the genocide, just attempted to draw
> attention away from it.  

I have no intention of disputing it.  The action of the then government was 
too little, too late, which was appalling, and they should never have allowed 
the ruling class to exploit ordinary people so badly.

> Is the killing of 800,000 to 1 million Irish people, somehow less important
> than the killing of two English civilians?  I mean, even by English standards,
> 1 million Irish people killed, must seem like a lot.  I can tell you that
> from an American point of view, it seems like a lot.

from an English point of view it was a lot, and I wouldn't dream of suggesting 
that it's not important, but, as just mentioned, timing is everything, and I'm 
sure you wouldn't want your note to appear to be exploiting the suffering of 
all those people to draw attention away from current events.

But, whatever, the Irish Famine is also significant in my family history, as 
I'm descended from some of the people forced to flee Ireland at the time, so I 
can hardly dispute its imporance now, can I?

Chris.

    This tired old crap about exports of food has already been refuted.
    See topic 1503.* Still, let's not let facts get in the way of some
    good propaganda, eh? The famine was a disgrace, and more could easily
    have been done to alleviate the problem; however, telling lies and
    sensationalising half the story is hardly helping resolve the problems
    in Ireland, is it?
    
    Laurie.

  re. .37

  The shipping manifests I've seen verify the exports of food
  while a million Irish men/women and children starved to death.

                Mark

>  The shipping manifests I've seen verify the exports of food
>  while a million Irish men/women and children starved to death.

I don't usually get involved in discussions like this but it
is commonly known that the amount of food exported would not
have saved substantial numbers of people as you have said Mark.

The propaganda value has been brilliant over the years though!

          James (whose got better things to be doing).

  James,

>is commonly known that the amount of food exported would not
>have saved substantial numbers of people as you have said Mark.

>The propaganda value has been brilliant over the years though!

   Not so commonly known I guess.  What references do you have
   to support this statement?  I'm not calling you a liar, I just
   have never heard that the ships manifests were propoganda.
   Who produced the phoney manifests, and for what reason?
   Below are three references I have on the shipment of food out
   of Ireland during the famine.  James, please read them. 

                      Mark

  "In the early autumn of 1848, to an Ireland already reeling under
   successive years of famine, came the final blow: news that all over
   the country the new potato crop was once again almost totally blighted.
   1849 was to be the most terrible year of all.  And yet it was that very
   autumn that a list of exports of food from Cork on a single day, 14
   November 1848, ran as follows:

                       147 bales of bacon
                       120 casks and 135 barrels of pork
                       5 casks of hams
                       149 casks miscellaneous provisions
                       1,996 sacks, and 950 barrels of oats
                       300 bags of flour
                       300 head of cattle
                       239 sheep
                       9,398 firkins of butter
                       542 boxes of eggs
  "

   - Ireland, A History by Robert Kee (The book of the major BBC/RTE
     Television Series


  
  "On one ship alone, the steamer Ajax, which sailed from Cork in 1847 for
   England, the cargo consisted of 1,514 firkins of butter, 102 casks
   of pork, 44 hogsheads of whiskey, 844 sacks of oats, 247 sacks of
   wheat, 106 bales of bacon, 13 casks of hams, 145 casks of porter,
   12 sacks of fodder, 28 bales of feathers, 8 sacks of
   lard, 296 boxes of eggs, 30 head of cattle, 90 pigs, 220 lambs, 34
   calves, and 69 miscellaneous packages "

   - The Nation, October 16, 1847, p. 851



  "The same journal reported a short time later that "twenty vessels sailed
   out of the Shannon this week with grain and provisions for London,
   Liverpool, Bristol, Gloucester, and Glasgow".  Counting all Irish ports,
   about twenty such vessels sailed every day from Ireland with the
   same general cargo: the country's prime produce and, on the same
   vessels, the unwanted produce -- the surplus humans on their way
   to Liverpool to board ships for America."

   - Paddy's Lament (Ireland 1846-1847) by Thomas Gallagher

    Let us hope when they teach this course that they look at the social
    and economic origins of the famine. Then they will see that the famine
    was not a racist genocide holocaust. The famine also affected the rest
    of what was then Great Brittain, the deciding factor was class, not
    race. Thus it affected the peasantry, but also the proletariat in the
    big cities, the  great-grandparents of those who nowadays use London
    busses.
    
    If the food had been handed out to the poor in the great Irish famine,
    Irish capitalists and the foreign landlords they were, and still are allied
    to, would have lost out, just as
    nowadays taking the food surplusses and feeding the hungry in Africa
    would reduce prices on the food and futures markets in New York,
    Chicago, London, Dublin etc.
    
    So lets hope they put an internationalist perspective on it. Who knows,
    it might get some useful ideas into the heads of some twits who support
    a reactionary nationalism, and even support a murderous terror campaign
    against the people of London, because they believe a simplistic view of
    history.
    
    It might. And then again it might not.
    
    Kevin 

> The famine also affected the rest
> of what was then Great Brittain, the deciding factor was class, not
> race. Thus it affected the peasantry, but also the proletariat in the
> big cities, the  great-grandparents of those who nowadays use London
> busses.

  I had never heard before that the famine had so affected Great Britain.
  I didn't realize people had starved to death in England as well.  So
  you're saying it should be renamed the Irish/Great Britain famine.
  Wow, what books can you point us all to that detail the sufferings of
  the English people during this famine.  Kevin, you don't have an alias
  that writes revisionist history about the Holocaust as well, do you?
  Did they suffer having to eat the food I listed in 1267.40?  Was all
  that bacon bad for their hearts?

> Irish capitalists and the foreign landlords they were, and still are allied
> to, would have lost out, just as 

  Why is it, I suspected Marxist doctrine would creep in here.  Didn't anyone
  tell you that Communism died a few years ago, it's a failed social policy.

> Who knows,
> it might get some useful ideas into the heads of some twits who support
> a reactionary nationalism, and even support a murderous terror campaign
> against the people of London, because they believe a simplistic view of
> history.

  I'm confused, what does the famine (which happened 150 years ago) have
  to do with the current war.   Shouldn't it be remembered in it's own right,
  by the relatives of those who were forced to flee for their lives.  
  The teaching of the Irish Famine, the Pol Pot masacres in Cambodia, 
  the Jewish Holocaust, all are important, so that these kinds of
  attrocities won't be repeated.  That isn't Nationalism, that's history.


                          Mark

>  I had never heard before that the famine had so affected Great Britain.

even if you had heard, your selective memory would have filtered out this 
fact.  I've heard several times that many people in Britain also died, albeit 
probably on a lesser scale.  But I doubt you're interested in that, as it 
would weaken your campaign against the English.

>  Kevin, you don't have an alias
>  that writes revisionist history about the Holocaust as well, do you?

I thought you'd know this one, Mark.  Your selective, biased or blatantly 
untrue use of historical facts seem to bear certain parallels to Mr Hitler's 
reinterpretation of history.  Well, if you're proposing some sort of `Celtic 
Master Race' then you're a bit stuffed, as you'd have to include most of 
England, too.

>  Did they suffer having to eat the food I listed in 1267.40?

I would imagine so.  Not all of England was populated by the ruling class, as 
your selective history would appear to dictate.

>  Why is it, I suspected Marxist doctrine would creep in here.  Didn't anyone
>  tell you that Communism died a few years ago, it's a failed social policy.

Eh?

>  I'm confused, what does the famine (which happened 150 years ago) have
>  to do with the current war.   Shouldn't it be remembered in it's own right,
>  by the relatives of those who were forced to flee for their lives.  

Does this include any English relatives?  Or just relatives approved by you?
I remember my relatives who were caught up in the Irish famine very well 
without your "help", thank you very much.

BTW, the IRA aren't conducting a war.  Sorry if you find this fact so 
difficult to grasp.  If they were at war, any members who were captured could 
quite legitimitely be executed as spies, and then you and your other IRA 
supporters would really have something to bleat about.

>  The teaching of the Irish Famine, the Pol Pot masacres in Cambodia, 
>  the Jewish Holocaust, all are important, so that these kinds of
>  attrocities won't be repeated.  That isn't Nationalism, that's history.

I don't think anyone would contest this, as long as the events are shown in 
their correct historical perspective, and not used as some sort of political 
lever, or to draw attention away from current events.

Chris.

    Mark, 
    
    what makes you think I was talking about you? I referred to misguided
    twits.   
    
    >I'm confused
    
    I know. It shows.
    
    No I don't write revisionist history about the holocaust. That is why I
    would not compare it directly to the famine. 
    
    As to the gaps in your knowlege which you refer to, perhaps you could
    read a little more widely that it seems you do at present.
    
    I'll get back to you with a book list.
    
    And BTW, it makes you look a bit stupid when you write that you have
    never heard of something and then in the next sentence suggest it is
    untrue. Either you have heard about it or you haven't. Or are you
    telling us you are the world's greatest expert on history and a
    complete know-all ?? 
                        

    .42
    
    Yes, I'm confused as well. You say that the famine has nothing to
    do with the current situation in this note, and then you change your
    mind(?) in another note when the situation of your argument demands it.
    
    
    CHARLEY 

  Kevin,

    I look forward to your providing me with references on the suffering
  of the English people during the Irish Famine.  Here I have been misguided
  all these years, having never heard about the English famine graves,
  the English men/women and children who fled England for their lives,
  the Death ships that carried for poor English people from the shores of
  England to other nations.

>     >I'm confused
    
>    I know. It shows.

    Kevin, why the personal attacks?  Don't you think it's innappropriate
  to personally attack a fellow employee.  Can't you use the conference
  to debate your points, without attacking me?  What's the point of 
  your debating pal, Laurie's personal threats? 
 

                        Mark

      > Kevin, why the personal attacks?  Don't you think it's
      >innappropriate
      >to personally attack a fellow employee.  Can't you use the conference
      >to debate your points, without attacking me?  What's the point of
      >your debating pal, Laurie's personal threats?
    
    What personal attack? I was agreeing with you and responding with a
    little gentle sarcasm to your polemic, in which you implied I was a
    fascist.
    
    "Thou doth protest too loudly Sir, so all the world can see the true
    reason of your discontent."

    From note 1267.46 by Mark Holohan.
    
    > Kevin, why the personal attacks?  Don't you think it's innappropriate
    > to personally attack a fellow employee.  Can't you use the conference
    > to debate your points, without attacking me?  What's the point of
    > your debating pal, Laurie's personal threats?
    
    and from note 1236.60 also by Mark Holohan directed at me.
    
    >I figure the only way you could be educated is with a two by four.
    
    Laughable double standards and hypocrisy.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  Charely,

>    >I figure the only way you could be educated is with a two by four.
    
>    Laughable double standards and hypocrisy.

  No, that was tuber fore - the warning you give when a potato is headed
  in your direction.  Which brings us back to the topic at hand, the
  Potato Famine.

                         Mark

    RE .49
    
    Probably the best note in this conference!
    
    Nice one!
    
    Jamie.

> of what was then Great Brittain, the deciding factor was class, not
> race. Thus it affected the peasantry, but also the proletariat in the
> big cities, the  great-grandparents of those who nowadays use London
> busses.

I usually don't disagree with you Kev. (except on matters Hurling) but
I think you are wrong on this point.  I agree there was potato blight
across Europe in the 1840's but there was *not* widespread famine
throughout the same region.  I understand that other countries were as
badly hit with the blight, but none of them suffered the catastrophic
effects that Ireland suffered.  I wonder why? 

                          James.

    James, with response times like these you could get to be the next
    Limerick goalkeeper!
    
    My point is that the forces of capitalism drove the peasants from the
    land all over the UK. The poverty and destitution which followed took
    on a variety of forms and there is for me only a change of image
    between the rural hovels of the West of Ireland and the equally
    appalling slums of Manchester, Liverpool and London, or the destitution
    of the mine workers in rural areas taking their families to work in the
    mines with them to die in the accidents deep under the earth. There WAS
    also rural poverty and starvation in much of Britain, but it did not
    take on the dramatic forms found in isolated rural areas of Ireland as
    the victims were better able to flee to the urban slums. It is over 20
    years since I studied economic history, but I could try to dig up some
    literature if you like. 
    
    Now can you tell me the name of a single Irish catholic bishop, corn
    merchant, shipowner or banker who died of hunger ? If the famine was a
    racial holocaust like the nazi one against the Jews, then there should
    be plenty of examples. Anne Frank's father Otto was a well to do 
    stockbroker in Frankfurt in 1933. Rich wealthy Jews were prime targets
    of the nazis. The comparison between the Irish famine and the nazi
    holocaust is way off base, as they say. 
    
    I am not saying there has never been racial discrimination against the
    Irish. Cromwell's activities are a better example, he killed all he
    came up to, regardless of class. Am I right in recalling that he wrote
    in his diary on the night of the massacre at Drogheda: "I thank God
    none were spared" ?
    
    Kevin    

    I forgot to mention that I am aware that some prod charities made
    baptism into protestantism a precondition of famine relief.This may be
    seen as a racial, but it was a secondary symtom and not the driving
    force behind the hunger, which was capitalist greed. 

    
    Kevin,
    
    Didn't repeal of laws prohibiting Catholics from owning property worth
    more than a nominal amount and Catholic emancipation happen in close
    proximity (50 years or so) to the Famine?
    
    If so, I doubt if there were very many wealthy catholics around to
    starve, intentionally or otherwise.
    
    There were, undoubtedly, many British people who acted humanely toward
    the Irish during the Famine, but there were several institutional
    obstacles that come with the fact that Ireland was a colony, filled
    with people who spoke a different language and worshipped differently
    and who had a history of antagonism against the colonial power.
    Consequently, I doubt if many in power really cared one way or another
    how many died.  I suspect that the fewer that were left, the better it
    was for the colonial magistrates.
    
    If Ireland had been independent or had been the colony of another
    Catholic country, I doubt if the relief efforts would have been allowed
    to drag on ineffectually as long as they did.
    
    Growing up in Boston and going to Catholic schools as a child, we were
    always told by the priests how the British absentee landlords starved the
    Irish, shipped food out of the country, and refused American relief ships
    from unloading their cargoes. They would point to the fact that there
    weren't very many Protestants who came over during the Famine. It was
    only "us" who were forced to emigrate.
    
    Since we had lots of other things to consider from all the other ethnic
    groups in our schools (Poles, Italians, Portuguese) this wasn't something
    we dwelled on for very long.
    
    However, years later, I read the Great Hunger, and found that much of
    what the old-timers said was more or less true.
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I'm not an expert on catholic emancipation or its social consequences,
    but that is secondary to my point. In any event it is clear that such
    laws did not stop the accumulation of capital or the emergence of a
    capitalist class in the Jewish communities. 
    
    Also I'm not disputing that the landlord class was overwhelmingly
    Protestant and that they were many British absentee landlords. 
    
    The point is that this landlord class treated British and Scottish 
    Protestant/Presbyterian peasants in just the same way! 
    I think you will find plenty
    of Americans today who come from non-Catholic non-Irish stock who had
    to emigrate from poverty in what was then the UK. And I believe you
    entirely when you tell me that the priests in Boston didn't tell you
    about them.
    
    In fact a class of Irish Catholic small farmers and larger ranchers
    emerged from the famine to benefit from it insofar as they could afford
    to farm larger amounts of land (and also make more profit for the
    landlords). The most hated of them were the landlords agent's who stood
    waiting until the eviction was over before moving in to pick the
    spoils. The landlord's didn't care what the religion of the new tenants
    were or what happened to those evicted. They wanted their rent. That
    was the driving force behind the famine. It is essentially coincidental 
    that the poverty/famine which affected the Irish catholic
    peasantry was took a particular form. That is not to deny the horror of
    it, although the horror of the conditions in the rest of the UK shuold
    also be recognised, even though the form of the poverty was different. 
    
    Also I do believe there was an emerging capitalist class within the
    Irish nationalist catholic population, which was allied to the church.
    
    Where is the starving bishop? The Catholic Church accomodated itself to
    capitalism and imperialism, and opposed revolution against it at every
    turn.
    
    Kevin 
    
     
    
      

    >    Where is the starving bishop? 
    
    Probably hiding from the British soldiers, in fear of his life.
    And celebrating mass at secret locations, usually atop hills,
    at what were called "Mass Rocks".
    
    George

    Kevin,
    I find it amazing you can say so forcefully that the Catholic Church
    accomodated imperialism, when the church was, itself, a main target
    of the British imperialists.
    George

    George,   
    
    So what is the name of the starving bishop, post 1840? Where was he
    buried?
    
    The penal times were somewhat earlier, I believe, and there were also
    English catholic martyrs hung drawn and quartered at Tyburn...
    
    There were some priests who supported the War of Independence, but the
    bishops excommunicated the IRA men...
    
    just as in the Spanish Civil War there were some republican priests,
    hounded by the facists, who of course enjoyed the support of the
    heirarchy.
    
    Kevin   

    George,
    
    last night I had a glance at some books which dealt with bits of this. 
    
    The socialist historian Peter Beresford-Ellis has written "To hell or
    to Connaught"  which deals with the Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. 
    If priests wern't killed, they were dumped on Inisboffin, amoung other
    things. That was way before the famine. Catholic emancipation was
    granted follwing O'Connell's agitation in 1839 or therabouts. 
    
    The catholic Archbishop of Dublin of the 1850's Cullen, was constantly 
    opposed to any
    agitation against the landlords or the social order. Ellis quotes the
    nationalist Gavan Duffy complaining about Whig bishops in his "History
    of the Irish Working Class."  He also quotes Marx on the subject of the
    famine, pointing out that the Irish peasantry suffered differently to
    the English peasantry as a result of enclosures etc, because there was
    not the industrial conglomerations to absorb them. EP Thompson in his
    "The Making of the English Working Class" goes on a length about the
    the food riots in the UK which were a major feature of the
    period, mainly in Britain, but occasionally in Ireland.
    
    On the subject of Cromwell, he was a nasty piece of work wherever he
    went, not just Ireland.
    
    Is this revisionism or challenging myths?
    
    Kevin
    
      
    
      

    re .54
    
    Mike,
    
     >Growing up in Boston and going to Catholic schools as a child, we were
     >always told by the priests how the British absentee landlords starved 
    >the Irish, shipped food out of the country, and refused American relief
    >ships from unloading their cargoes.
    
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but it may be one-sided. I read a
    pamphlet yesterday by the Irish socialist Vasco Purser, which also
    looks at the situation of Irish emigrants in the slums. He quotes
    Wyndham-Smith (sp? Author of The Great Hunger?) and says that 60% of the
    Irish children who emigrated to the Boston slums died.  So I would say
    that the US capitalist moloch was not much kinder than the British one or
    the emerging Irish one. That is the core point I am arguing. It is also
    the line of the German socialist Friedrich Engels, who married an Irish
    woman, learned Gaelic, and wrote a classic on the consequences of the
    driving of the peasantry into the slums of the industrial cities.
    
    Kevin 

    
    I agree with much of what you have said.  A short time after I read The
    Great Hunger, the Somalia famine was THE news story. The pattern of
    people being driven off of the farms is a classic consequence of famine
    and does much to exacerbate and lengthen it. This happened in Ireland
    and in Somalia.
    
    There's a great book on Boston called "Boston's Immigrants" which
    really focuses on the Irish during the Famine years. It bears out that
    tragic statistic you mention and many others equally tragic.
    
    Some background....
    
    Boston is now a very small city geographically.  In those days, it was
    much, much smaller.  Areas that now have housing and neighborhoods were
    underwater or marshland in the 1840's.  Boston's population was 100%
    Protestant and, with the exception of a very small fugitive slave or
    freed slave group and a smaller Native American population, it was also
    totally Anglo-Saxon in 1840.
    
    There was no hinterland of productive farmland.  There was no
    industrial infrastructure.  Boston was a port city and a banking hub.
    
    Into that situation, approximately 750,000 destitute people arrive
    within a 3 to 5 year period.  The population grew by @80%.  By 1851,
    over 52% of all births in the city of Boston were to non-natives (i.e.
    Irish).  It is probably without precedent in world history that the
    constitution of a major city changed so profoundly in so short a time.
    
    The newcomers were farmers or laborers without skills that could be
    marketed to the advantage of the natives or themselves.  They were not
    only poor and sick, put they were papists as well.  You have to
    remember that the original European settlers to this area were
    Cromwell's people (dissenters/pilgrims) who came here to have things
    their own way.
    
    So, to imagine that these folks were welcomed by anybody, capitalist or
    not, is a stretch.
    
    This antagonism continued for some time. The native Bostonians lost
    control over Boston politics in the late 1800's.  Today, the mayor of
    Boston is the first mayor without an Irish background since the turn of
    the century.
                               

    Wow, extraordinary story. I must try and get hold of the book. Did they
    sail straight into Boston from Ireland? The place must have been like a
    refugee camp. How were the people housed/sheltered ? Was there any
    quarantine/immigration control in those days?
    
    Kevin

    
    
    Most of the refugess came into Boston's North End.  This was an area of
    docks right on the bay.  This is the section that John Kennedy's
    grandfather represented politically and where my own great-great
    grandfather arrived in 1848. (I must admit they've done better than we
    have in the new world.)
    
    Boston was far more selective than the ports of New York or Montreal. A
    practice of boarding immigrant ships to inspect for cholera was in
    place in Boston.  However, the effect of this was that ships with
    diseased passengers turned away at Boston then went up the coast to
    Lynn, Massachusetts or Portland, Maine and dropped their cargo off
    there. Within days the people left in Lynn or Portland found their way
    to Boston anyway.
    
    In those days there were some relief agencies set up by the Quakers,
    but little else.  Several of the literati of the day (Emerson and
    Thoreau) make mention of the plight of the Irish, but they were largely
    left to their own devices.  
    
    Thoreau writes about the wreck of a "coffin ship" at the very beginning
    of a book called "Cape Cod" which he wrote as a journal of his walking
    trip from Boston to the tip of Cape Cod.  He speaks very eloquently and
    sympathetically of the families coming down from Boston to claim their
    dead.   
    
    I'll see if I can find the author of the book and get it to you.
    
    Mike

    And there's that odd bit of trivia that more irish immigrants
    landed in quebec city than any other port in north america...

    
    and many of them are buried on Gros Isle in the St Laurence.
    
    The attraction for Boston and New York was that they were not part of
    the British Empire, which Montreal and Quebec were.

Re .52

Kev,

>    James, with response times like these you could get to be the next
>    Limerick goalkeeper!

You could have really insulted me and said that I had reflexes
like the Clare goalkeeper.  Now that would have really hurt ;-).

Very impressive note.  You really know your stuff.

Your note does bring up an issue I've never seen dealt with any place
else:

What do you think the subsequent socio-economic history of Ireland
would have been if the Great Famine hadn't occurred?

                       James.

    Re: .66
    
    Contraception would have been espoused by the South at least a 
    generation ago, and there would be howls of outrage in hallowed
    halls of government at the prospect of wimmin getting the vote.
    
    And Galway would never have won an All-Ireland GAA football final.
    
    Regards,
    
    John Bennett
    
    Newry,
    Co. Down.

    That Clare goalie was a gentleman who did his best for Offaly and I
    wouldn't say a word against him. 
    
    >What do you think the subsequent socio-economic history of Ireland
    >would have been if the Great Famine hadn't occurred?
    
    The economic forces of capitalism would have driven the peasants from
    the land, as they did in Scotland. I read a mention of crofter wars in
    Scotland in the 1880's recently, but I don't know much about them.
    Incidently the driving of the small farmers is continuing down to the
    present day with the EC saying that some enormous percentage of Irish
    farmers are uneconomic and aiming at a farm size of 250 acres, or
    thereabouts. The land war in Ireland and the partial victory which lead
    to the Gladstonian land reform still has an effect on land distribution
    today. In Taughmaconnell where my mother comes from the land at Lugboy
    belonged to Sharp the English toffee maker. It was divided up among 11
    families who are still there. But as the old batchelors die out they
    are replaced by intensive farmers which the EC considers "economic".
    There was also some land squatting down to 1923 which was later
    ratified by the Land Commission. 
    
    So there is always a struggle between the different classes for the
    fruits of labour. Even today the IFA does not allow evictions by the
    banks, who are up to their ****es in money anyway. And today farmers pay 
    rent to absentee landlords in the form of bank interest, agribusiness
    capital's profits, income tax (via the socalled national debt), and the
    profits of the fertiliser and machinery companies. I understand in the
    USA the banks do evict farmers, who tend to borrow heavily to try and
    compete in intensive farming.
    
    Kevin      

Galway readers may be interested in a famine commemorative walk
taking place this Sunday, July 7th.

The walk starts in Eyre Square at 2pm and goes to Gort na Marbh
in Menlo. It will be led by local historian Peadar O Dowd
and is organised by the Galway One World Centre.

Come and join in.