Conference tallis::celt

    That's incredible - I believe this is the first real
    sign that the English are recognizing the Nationalists
    rights in Northern Ireland.  Previous to this - British
    soldiers would tear down signs in gaeilge.
    
    It is small steps like this that will bring peace to the
    province.  ...it's come a long way since the British
    banned speaking Irish in public.
    
    Ceart go leor,
    /George

	Isn't that grand ?

	Roadsigns are to be written in a language that only 1/2 the people can 
	understand.

	Democracy at work

    
    RE:  -1
    
    Yes, but it could be worse.  Our roads signs in America are primarily
    posted in English...and only 1/2 the Americans can read them!  :^)
    
    /jen

    re: .2
    
    
    Going to hide behind your "nom de plume" whilest noting in the CELTFILE?
    Or would you care to identify yourself - with a real name, MR. "Tele-msg"?.
    
    Apparently you didn't bury all the ghosts from your past in Ireland, nor 
    drink enough of "real draught" Murphy's to appreciate the significance of 
    allowing the bi-lingual signs in bigotted, Brit-controlled, Belfast. 
    
    In case you didn't notice, Belfast is in IRELAND, on the island of
    IRELAND. Then again, mebbe you never heard of the expression,
    "When in Rome, do as the Romans." 
    
    Signs in Ireland should be, first and foremost, in Irish. As for th 50% 
    who don't understand, or don't *care* to understand, perhaps they should 
    learn to assimilate into the culture that has inhabited the island of
    IRELAND all these centuries. It is, after all, the least they could do,
    esp. since they're forebears have only been living there for the last 300 
    years.
    
    re: .1
    
    I agree - what a giant leap forward: now, instead of the Brit Army, (the 
    foreign army of colonial occupation) ripping down signs written in the 
    native laguage of the island of IRELAND, they'll stop trying to incite 
    the locals with their deliberate stupidity.
    
    You know, George, a newpaper columnist awhile back, wrote a great
    article about language and how the Brits have tried to use (language) 
    against the Irish as a weapon. The great irony of it all is: the Irish 
    have returned the tactic, much more to their favor. Below is a qoute
    for the article that highlights yet another failed attempt at cultural
    genocide that the scumbag Brit government has practiced on the Irish,
    and throughout their "empire" forr that fact. (aside: wot empire?!! ;^> )
    
    "Same Language, Different Worlds" by Paul R. Reid (a columnist for the
    Transcript newspapers.)
    
       "The British have spent 300 years trying to suppress Gaelic in
    Ireland, which serves as testimony to their respect of language's power 
    in defining culture.  University of language is a prerequisite to 
    assimilation. Republicans in Northern Ireland may speak English now, but 
    it's not the same language the British speak -- or that we speak.  
    They're not assimilated and the English they speak bears witness.  
    
    The British made language a weapon; the Irish have sharpened it to deadly 
    effect."
    

    RE: .2
    
    Mr. Tele_msg in Reading,
    
    As Mike stated in his note:
    "...Irish may be used along with English."   "Along side" means
    that both languages would be posted, not one.
    
    I don't see what is undemocratic about that.  There is no harm in
    providing access to both languages.
    
    Banning the Irish language serves only to divide the 2 communities
    further.  And that my dear friend is not "grand".
    
    Cheers,
    George

	Re bilingual signs - road signs in Wales have been bi-lingual
	for ages, although I'm not sure when they were introduced.
	Certainly decades ago. The Welsh language has been taught in
	schools for equally as many years as well; I believe for a long
	time it was illegal to speak anything but English in Wales. I
	don't have the exact figures but my (Welsh) ex-wife used to tell
	me that more than 50% of the population now speak Welsh, where
	at the beginning of the century it was more like 15%.

	Re .4 - Keep taking the pills, Drotter. One day you'll enter a
	note that isn't full of anti-English insults, and people will
	read it for a change instead of pressing "next unseen".

	JJ.

    RE: .6  MAJORS::QUICK 
    
	>Re bilingual signs - road signs in Wales have been bi-lingual
	>for ages, although I'm not sure when they were introduced.
    
    And many of them, that I've seen in my travels there, have the English
    part blacked out with spray paint.
    

    
    	no offence here but what does the average Joe/Jane in 
    	the street care about the irish language in modern day Ireland?!?!
    	Most of us ENDURE irish class in school because its unavoidable,
    	but NEVER use it outside or after school.   Apart from the odd news
    	broadcast in irish on RTE (which even with a 6th year vocabulary
    	is not 100% 'understandable'!) when do we hear irish spoken??
    
    	I appreciate that the language helps define and enhance our culture
    	and I love the fact that I can speak irish (with decreasing fluency
    	these days), but just about NONE of my friends have any interest in
    	the language, and outside the gaeltacht areas, NO-ONE realistically
    	uses it.  
    
    	C'mon now be honest, how many people driving along an Irish road or
    	street will look at the name in irish BEFORE looking at it in
        english?!?!?  And those of us who do notice the name in irish,
        probably only do it, to see how 'cute' the translation is!!
    	
     	fwiw....sad but true, imho 8-)
    
    	Ann
     

    
Re Ann,

In the context of the six counties, bi-lingual road signs will be seen
by nationalists as a recognition of their identity in a society which
has never before tried to even aknowledge their identity. 

Denis.

    
    	re -.1 point taken Dennis - and I agree.
    
    	The point I was trying to make was in reply to the general
    discussion - my point being whether or not the average person
    really cares - but as you say, in the context of nationalists in
    N.I. its a different situation
    
    	thanks
    	Ann

    re .8 & .10
    
    Regarding which language on a sign the average person reads, I agree,
    English, but on the other hand I think people would care if Irish was
    no longer seen, heard or spoken.  English is easy for people to use
    because it is the language they are used to. It is the fault of the
    Irish government and educational system that Irish isn't our primary
    language. 
    
    Even though we don't use it, Irish is one of the things that makes us
    different from other English speaking nations, it is part of our
    culture and our heritage.
    
    I have a lot of respect for the Welsh and what they have done for their
    own language. Why can't we do the same? :-(
    
    Mike.

    re.8
    Ann is right of course, most people don't care and the Irish
    version isn't used. I think the problem here is that although the
    signs are printed in English and Irish the English translation comes
    first and is bigger than the Irish. If they were reversed I think
    people might begin using the Irish place names rather than the
    translation.
    
    
    
    Re. 6 JJ Quick
>	Re .4 - Keep taking the pills, Drotter. One day you'll enter a
>	note that isn't full of anti-English insults, and people will
>	read it for a change instead of pressing "next unseen".
    
    If you press NEXT-UNSEEN, how do you know Joe's notes are full of
    anti-English insults ? :-))))))))
    
    
    

	Re: 4
	Why should signs be , first and foremost, in Irish, when, as I was trying
	point out, only around 50% of the people living there speak the language?

	Isn't this precisely the same tactic that you condemn the English for
	doing ? Forcing another language on people who do not speak it as a
	mother tongue?

	Don't get me wrong. I think that the inclusion of the Irish language in
	road signs etc is a step in the right direction to bringing some form
	of understanding between the two communities, but it should not be
	forced.

	Perhaps the 50% who don't understand or dont care to be forced to ?
	Again, its the same as the English soldiers ripping down signs in
	Irish and forcing english on the masses.

	Finally, my last comment was not meant to be sarcastic. I think it is
	a democratic move in the right direction.

	DR

Re last

I dont think the signs are being forced on anyone who doesn't want them.
As far as I understand, the bi-lingual signs are for predominantly
nationalist areas. I dont think bi-lingual signs will be going up
in the Tiger Bay area of Belfast or the Waterside in Derry.

Denis.

	re Last

	I realise they're not being forced on anyone, but a previous note made
	it sound as if they should be

    RE .6
    
    Just to put the record straight. The 1991 Census found that 19% of the
    population spoke Welsh, that's roughly half a million. 
    Although the total number of speakers has increased since the turn of
    the century, due to population explosion, the percentage of the
    population as a whole has steadily decreased.
    
    Speaking Welsh in public was NEVER an offence in Wales, and was in no
    way punishable. This often gets confused with the practice of the
    'Welsh-not' in Schools. This was where pupils were beaten if they were
    caught speaking Welsh.
    
    Bilingual signs are used where the original names have been anglicised,
    e.g Cardiff (Caerdydd). Most places have only one name, mostly the
    original, eg. Llandudno, Bangor.   The practice these days is to revert
    back to the original name, eg. Dolgellau & Caernarfon (compared with
    the now defunct Dolgelley & Caernarvon)
    
    Huw.