Conference tallis::celt

    It is not they who can inflict most, but they who can endure most who
    will conquer.
    			T. MacSwiney
    
    		Go ndeana Dia trocaire air;
    
                                           Oggs.
    

    
    The pain of Martin Finucane is plain, and I for one find it 
    completely understandable that he should react in an angry 
    and accusatory manner. But it would be stretching things
    a bit to call his speech unbiased.
    
    I would suggest people read a work on Loyalist violence by a 
    Scottish academic, Steve Bruce, called "The Red Hand". I 
    would also point out that at least two experienced Irish
    journalists working in Northern Ireland, Ed Moloney and
    Dave McKittrick, do not accept the blanket accusation
    of "widespread collusion" between security forces and
    Loyalist terror. Individual cases, yes.
    
    The Loyalist terrorists message to the IRA has always
    been: "When you stop, we'll stop." Even the upsurge
    in Loyalist terrorism in East Tyrone was a response to
    IRA operations, and that is admitted even by
    "repubican sources" according to the Irish Times. 
    Recently, we had the strange sight of a Sinn Fein
    counsellor calling for increased security forces
    vigilance in North Belfast, hardly likely that he
    seriously believed that the authorities were in
    cahoots with the murderers. The arrest and prosecution 
    rate against Loyalists gangs is far higher than that 
    against Repubican - again hardly lending plausibility
    to accusations of "widespread collusion". Roughly
    50% of the terrorists in the Maze prision are Loyalists
    - from a smaller base. People in the north themselves
    use the term "tit-for tat" murder, suggesting they
    know very well what is going on.
    
    If you read 1123.3 you will get it from the horse's
    mouth: there is a new breed of Loyalist terrorist
    about, smarter and more successful than their
    predecessors of the early 70's. Like the IRA, he
    does not need "collusion" from anybody. The 
    accsusations also fail to explain why Loyalist
    terror lay virtually dormant for over a 10 year 
    period in the late '70s and early '80s, while the 
    IRA was continuing a violent campaign.
    
    In 1119, I drew attention to the hollowness of the
    IRA's claim to be non-sectarian, and I won't repeat
    myself by attacking the other tribal army.
    
    Toby
    Toby
    
    
    The message of the Loyalist

    

ATTEMPT BY IRA TO MURDER CHURCH CARETAKER CONDEMNED AS SECTARIAN

from GERRY MORIARTY in BELFAST

Churchmen and politicians have condemned as sectarian the attempted
murder of a Presbyterian church caretaker near Markethill, Co Armagh.
Claims by the IRA that the badly wounded man was in the Royal Irish
Regiment were dismissed as a "public relations" exercise.

The 46-year old man, who was caretaker in Markethill Presbyterian
Church was shot late on Tuesday night at his isolated cottage
on the Redrock Road between Armagh and Markethill. He is married
with four children.

He was hit twice in the stomach and once in the shoulder and was
reported to be in a critical but stable condition.

The RUC and British Army strenuously denied that the man was a
soldier in the recently formed Royal Irish Regiment. The 
Presbyterian Moderator Rev John Dunlop said the vulnerable
Protestant community living along the border would view the 
murder attempt as yet another sectarian attack on the 
Protestant people.

"I think it is an apalling attack on a totally innocent man."
 he said. The claim that he was in the security forces was
 simply a public relation exercise by the IRA and even if he 
 had been a member, it would be no justification for trying
 to murder him.

"The IRA must know they cannot unite Ireland by killing
 Protestants." said Mr Dunlop.

Protestants living in border areas were one of the most
terrorised and vulnerable groups in western Europe. The
IRA and the UVF, which had also carried out sectarian
killings in the area, were threatening the entire
community, he said.

Urging people to turn their backs on such organisations,
Mr Dunlop appealed for public support and co-operation
for the security forces in their fight against the para-
militaries.

The SDLP deputy leader, Mr Seamus Mallon, said the 
striking theme that ran through all such incidents
was in the inherent sectarianism that pervaded both
the UVF and the IRA.

"The pointlessness of these attacks also indicates a 
 serious escalation in the type of futile tit-for-tat
 exchanges that we have so often seen before and which
 have claimed so many lives."

He asked how the IRA could try to justify such an attack
when only last week a senior Sinn Fein member, Mr Mitchell
McLaughlin, from Derry, said Protestants could not be
coerced into a United Ireland.

"At a time when all sections of the community are demanding
 a peaceful, just solution there is surely an onus, a
 heavy responsibility on the paramilitaries to play an
 active role in ending the very violence which is driving
 our community apart and delaying a permanent peace in
 our country." he said.

The Dungannon priest, Fr Dennis Faul, also appealed to 
republican and loyalist paramilitaries not to get 
incolved in tit-for-tat killing. He said the attack 
could not be justified even if the man was in the
security forces. The fact that he was not in them,
however, further underlined the incompetence of the
IRA's so-called intelligence gathering operations.

- Irish Times, 10/9/92

    Is this what you would call tit-for-tat:
    The Irish Republican Army attacks the RUC Forensic
    Laboratory, and in retaliation the RUC, or rather 
    a loyalist paramilitary group goes out and murders
    an innocent 50 year old Catholic man working on
    a house repair.

    This doesn't look to me like sectarian tit-for-tat
    killing.  This looks like a military action against
    the RUC, by the Republican Army, and in retaliation
    an innocent Catholic is murdered by loyalist
    paramilitaries.  Looking closer I'd say that the 
    loyalist paramilitaries and the RUC must be on the
    same side, as an attack on one results in an action
    from the other.
                    Mark

    Another great move by the IRA, not only did they blow up the forensic
    lab but by packing a van full of 200lbs of explosives they managed to
    damage the whole neighbourhood.  Every house as far as you could see
    had their roofs and windows destroyed and many had more damage.  I
    think the estimated cost of damage was �200 million.
    
    Very sad to see innocent grown men in tears after having their house 
    which they had lived in for years, and spent thousands on destroyed in
    seconds by mindless terrorism.  I guess the reason for the attack is to
    cost the government as much money as possible but to do it by
    destroying innocent peoples housing and risking their lives is
    inexcusable.
    
    Just as inexcusable is the murder by the UFF of the innocent catholic. 
    What sort of revenge is that !!! What gives them the right to carry out
    this murder "in defence of the Loyalist community".  The whole
    situation saddens me and the murderers and terrorists from both sides
    sicken me.
    
    		Brian.

    re .5
    
    Minor nit, I think you will find it was 2000lb, not 200lb. Irrelevant
    really how big the bomb was, the damage caused to the local housing
    estate was horrendous. Sure, the forensic lab was a legit target, but
    the method used showed a total lack of responsibility. Some of the
    buildings will have to be demolished and many people are homeless.
    
    And this justifies murdering an innocent Catholic. B*ll*cks!
    
    Depressed
    Clive

    RE: 0.4
    
    A "legitimate target"
    
    Give me a break Mark. 
    
    Try telling the 750 plus home owners that the
    destruction of their home is ok because it was a legitimate target
    
    What about the injured - are you going to tell them that its ok 
    because it was a legit target
    
    What about the retired man who spent his life savings redecorating the
    home where he spent a significant proportion of his life, a home that
    is so seriously damaged that it will be torn down, that its ok.
    
    This man was interviewed on RTE radio yesterday. It was terrible to
    listen to the anguish in his voice. So Mark, dont make me sick with your
    inate justification of mindless violence. 
    
    Yo are right about one thing though, the killing of the building site
    worker is sick and depraved.
    
    Gerry

    I can see *some* validity in the claim that the Forensic Lab was a
    legitimate target. What makes the whole thing so abhorent is that in
    order to destroy this 'legitimate' target, an extremely large bomb
    (2000lb) was used with total disregard for the local residents.
    
    Don't take this as justification for the act of violence perpetrated.
    If they truly wished to destroy only the forensic lab, then they could
    have forced all occupants out of the building, planted several smaller
    devices and destroyed the building without endangering the
    neighbourhood. However, this approach carries a very high risk of being
    caught and as such, would have very little appeal to the cowards who
    organise such acts.
    
    Clive

    
    I see Mark is at it again.
    
    I suppose he can feel happy that indications are that the first
    suspects to be released through lack of evidence are Loyalists 
    accused of terrorism.
    
    The UFF showed its appreciation by killing an Republican 
    ex-internee within 12 hours. If he could hear the interviews
    with the people whose homes have been devastated, he might
    start to understand what "tit-for-tat" killing is all
    about. The UFF and UVF feeds off Republican terrorism just
    as much as the IRA/ IPLO claim to be "defenders of the
    Irish people", except for "Irish" read "Nationalist".
    
    Toby
    

    
    Re: The "Republican Army"
    
    Mark,
    
    Can you please answer:
    
    a) What "Republic" is this "Army" representing? 
    
    b) In this "Republic", when was the last time the people as
       a whole voted? 
    
    c) What mandate did this "Army" receive from those people
       to continue its policy?
    
    d) What political control (if any) is there over this "Army".
       Who exercises it, and how? 
    
       DON'T tell me it's a mystical bond with the spirits of martyred 
       patriots!
    
    e) Can you comment on the evidence that this "Army" finances itself
       by armed violence (robbery and kidnapping)? That it maintains 
       itself by armed thuggery, racketeering and extortion? That it in 
       the past received finance and armaments from known supporters 
       of terrorism like Colonel Ghadaafi, and the East German Secret 
       Police?
    
    f) Can you comment on the policy of this "Army" to indiscriminately
       kill anybody who gets in its way, particularly if they are
       Protestants, Loyalists, British citizens or just anyone who 
       happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
    
    g) Would you agree that this groups is neither "Irish", "Republican"
       nor an "Army"?
    
       It is not "Irish" because the vast majority of Irish people are 
       revolted by its tactics and what it stands for. It is not "Republican" 
       because it ignores the will of the mass of the people. It's most 
       wildly implausible claim is to be an "Army" - the Mafia could 
       claim as much.
    
    I'd like some answers, but I guess you'll just do your usual 
    Sinn Fein shuffle ".....(rabbit, rabbit)...don't condone.....
    (rabbit, rabbit).......don't condemn.....(rabbit, rabbit)...,
    ...legitimate targets....(rabbit, rabbit).... unfortunate
    accidents.....(rabbit, rabbit) ....tiocfaidh �r l�, ......
    ..(rabbit, rabbit)....."
    
    zzzzzzzzzz,
    
    Toby

  Toby,
   Go back to sleep.  Shall I start addressing my
  questions regarding the British Army to you?  Are you
  their voice?

   Toby, why does the British Army place military targets
   deep in civilian areas?  Is it for the express purpose
   of increasing collatoral damage?

   Toby, why does the RUC collude with the UFF and UVF?

   Toby, why did the SAS set off bombs in Dublin?

   Toby, why are innocent people arrested?  put on mock
   trials, and then put away for the rest of their lives?

   Toby, why does amnesty international condemn the 
   actions of the British Army?  Why does the British
   army commit these attrocities?

   Toby, what is the reason the British wish to perpetuate
   the myth of "tit for tat"?

   Toby, why have the numbers of people dying in 
   northern Ireland only increased with the presence of
   the British Army?

   And to all of you who could spend most of your notes
  whining about damages to houses.  Get a perspective!
  A house can be repaired (the British tax-payers will
  take care of that), but that murdered man (probably
  targeted by information the RUC passed on to it's
  loyalist gangs) can never be brought back to life.

  Toby, you don't wave the white flag as someone else
  suggested, you wave the Union Jack.

                     Mark

    >e) Can you comment on the evidence that this "Army" finances itself
    >   by armed violence (robbery and kidnapping)? That it maintains 
    >   itself by armed thuggery, racketeering and extortion? That it in 
    >   the past received finance and armaments from known supporters 
    >   of terrorism like Colonel Ghadaafi, and the East German Secret 
    >   Police?
    
    Toby, it's a two way street.  Your loyalists traded missile technology
    with the Israeli and South African regimes for arms and ammunition,
    all with Britain's blind eye.  So which side is worse?

    In the last two I think you are missing the tone of Toby's entries.
    
    He is not a loyalist or Brit sympathiser.  He has entered notes to
    ensure there is a balance of viewpoints in this conference.  The
    Pro-Republican/Nationalist, anti Brit voice is heard very loud in here,
    Toby was just showing things from the other perspective.
    
    I respect him for his ability to see things from both sides.  If you
    want a solution you have to agree to disagree with opposing factions to
    be able to reach a compromise - and believe me for there to be a
    solution there has to be compromise from both sides.
    
    Tunnel vision, refusal to even entertain opposing viewpoints can only
    lead to a very long, very bitter continuation of violence.  You people
    from across the water - even you must realise the huge majority of
    people in Northern Ireland/Ireland are sick and tired of violence.
    
    Re-2
    Holohan, Nobody said destruction of the houses was worse than murder of
    the Catholic.  Would the Catholic have been shot if the bomb had not
    been planted ????
    
    		Brian