Conference tallis::celt

    
    Tom,
    
    I sympathise.
    
    There should be scope to discuss Ireland's problems in this notesfile
    on an "I'm OK, you're OK" basis. The odd flamer is not uncommon in
    any notesfiles, but we do get a surfeit of them.
    
    I have no problem in splitting the notes, as I will continue to 
    contribute to both as long as I can.
    
    Toby

    Tom,
    
    This conference is to discuss celtic/Irish issues. Ireland is a divided
    country and talking about this division has become part of Irish
    culture. I would say that most Irish people are interested in the
    politics of the country and some feel more strongly about it than
    others.
    
    I think there is room for both types of discussion in this notesfile and 
    for first-time visitors it may help to educate them as to the problems 
    they may encounter on a visit.
    
    If people are not interested in healthy political debate there's always
    NEXT-UNSEEN !
    
    Enjoy it.
    
    Tony.
    
    

    I don't agree with splitting the file either, but in all seriousness
    there are only so many times and so many different ways that the SAME 
    arguments can be REPEATED without becoming just a little redundant.
    
    All this firey rhetoric is terribly impressive but the content....?????
    
                                M.

    If we can't manage to have coexistance and tolerance of each others
    differing opinions, attitudes and beliefs in this notes conference,
    how can we hope to see peaceful, tolerant coexistance in Ireland as a
    whole.
    
    Let's stick with one conference and try to practice some mutual
    understanding and tolerance of each others views.
    
    Clive 

    
    
    I doubt that creating a new conference would make any difference ....
    
    All it would lead to is DUPLICATE entries in BOTH files as has happened
    in several other conferences.
    
    "Next Unseen" does the trick for me.
    
    
    keVin
    

    
    re .0
    
     That "culture" that you mention is composed of far more than just 
    what folks eat, drink or do with their leisure time.
    
     The conflicts within a society are certainly more definitive of that
    culture than where one picks up a pint.
    
     Because you are uncomfortable with conflict you would have others 
    ignore the central issues confronting Irish culture at this point
    in time?
    
     As Burnsie says...just move on to subjects that fit your own
    definition of culture and leave others to their meat.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Frank
    
    

I'm not sure whether the base note is serious about two conferences
but I fully agree with the point being made.

re.0
>Then there are
>those who seem soley interested in schoolboy style shouting
>contests as to whether it is better to kill Irish or English,
>soldiers or civilians, adults or children.

Exactly and while this continues there will be no solution to 
Ireland's problems. Already been said I know but its all too
true.

re.2
>If people are not interested in healthy political debate there's always
>NEXT-UNSEEN !

Haven't seen much of this recently.

re.6

Couldn't get to NEXT-UNSEEN quick enough.


/Paul.

    I do not agree with splitting the conference, it is very simple to skip
    a particular note or reply if, there is a possibility of upsetting
    oneself. If nothing else we have to learn to tolerate other attitudes
    and opinions.
    
    What I would like to see is people adhere as close as possible to the
    original topic or question.
    
    

    I wouldn't be in favour of splitting the conferences either . I enjoy
    healthy debate abd discussion ..... for a while I thought that was what
    we were having .. then it became apparent that this was nothing to do
    with discussion and everything to do with coercing people to accept a
    particular (in my view narrow-minded) stance or ridiculing them if they
    argued against you . Now I am firmly in the `NEXT/UNSEEN' camp waiting
    for the day when noting behaviour improves and all points of view are
    tolerated .
    
    
    Feargal.

    
    I also am against splitting the conference.....
    
    Although some of the replies have taken on the flavor of childish
    insults from MORE than one person.    I do try to value all peoples 
    differences.  I still feel I can learn from anyone that has input.
    
    I vote NO to the split......  We celts have had too many splits as it
    is.
    
    Let's just try to 'agree to disagree' then we may get back to a useful
    exchange of data....
    
    
    
    paddy 

    I'm new to this conference.  I added it to my list about a week ago
    because my wife (who is quite proud of her Irish heritage) and I are
    coming from Colorado Springs, USA, to Ireland for two weeks in August.
    I thought that by reading through this conference I'd get a feel for
    Ireland, where to go, what to see, and what to do.
    
    At first blush, I thought that a split into two conferences would be a
    good idea.  That way I could read the "visit Ireland" notes, and not be
    bothered by all the BS'ing blowhards.
    
    But the more that I read from the blowhards, the more I realized I was
    learning about another side to Ireland, one that I was remotely aware
    of.  I'm sure that seeing this side in advance will help me understand
    my trip through Ireland even more.
    
    -- Jim

    
    re .11
    
     Ah well...so when folks set at their kitchen tables discussing 
    politics because they're concerned with the welfare of their country
    and its people, they're just being 'blowhards'?
    
     Perhaps I misunderstand your apparent cynicism or perhaps that
    was just an unfortunate choice of words, but by deriding discussion
    of a topic because that topic upsets you is sort of closed-minded,
    don't you think?
    
    

    Vote to keep the conference as one. There is room enough for all 
    viewpoints as far as I'm concerned.  Look where we've got with
    splits and divisions etc?
    
    Sl�n
    
    Dermot

    Yes, I vote to keep it as one.  I, in one topic recently was one of
    those who was arguing rather than discussing the NI troubles.  I learnt
    a lot, maybe not about the troubles but more about peoples attitudes
    towards them, even though some of the notes were particularly abusive and
    personal.
    
    If you are proud of your Irish heritage or interested in Irish culture
    you do yourself no favours by ignoring one aspect of it which you
    dislike.  You know the names of those whose entries you are not
    interested in reading - you can hit next unseen without reading any
    text.  It is pleasing to know you still at least read mine :-)
    
    Good luck,
    Brian.
    	

   Re: .0

   <Then there are those who seem soley interested in schoolboy
   <style shouting contests as to whether it is better to kill Irish
   <or English, soldiers or civilians, adults or children.

   First of all, the premise for splitting the conference is a bald-faced lie.

   No one in this conference is "shouting" or debating whether it is "better
to kill" anyone. A rather amateur debating technique: set up a false premise,
then try and stampede everyone in choosing sides on this false issue.

   The Brits use this very technique in squelching debate about NI. And since
the Chinese say, that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, dare I say
you've paid the Brits the ultimate compliment by imitating their behaviour.

    Perhaps, having been granted freedom from Britain over 75 years ago
has made Free Staters complacent, and forgetful about their brothers and
sisters in the North. To a point where, some Irish in the South now just wish
the whole thing about NI would just go away.

    The British have not only successfully divided Ireland, they have divided
the Irish people too, against each other. Give the Brits "credit" though:
their mastery of the *divide & conquer* technique has silenced opposition 
to British colonial rule by the mere, simple threat of *embarrassment*. 
More than a few Irish in the south are *embarrassed* to speak up against 
British atrocites through fear of being labeled a "supporter of
'terrorism'".

  Of course, what is never mentioned, the Brits themselves created the word
"terrorism" to classify anyone who opposes their colonial thievery.

   A substantial number of Irish people I've met have been cowed and
embarrassed into silence, or into thinking both British soldiers and HMG
are "peacekeepers" in NI. What is always conveniently overlooked is
Britain's brutal and vicious scorched-earth history in Ireland.  Over the
years, a series of prime ministers and dozens of Parliaments have attempted
to starve the Irish, destroy their language, jail or kill their leaders,
destroy any educational system, make the Irish economy completely
dependent on England, and your future nonexistent. And of late, it seems
to even *hear* about what's going on in NI sends some Irish people (and a
lot of British) scurrying for cover.

    British contempt for all their conquered lands is understandable. But
Irish contempt for their own kind being slowly killed off through the war of
attrition in NI is unconscionable. 
                          

    
       BTW, I vote to keep it as one conference.
    
    
       I agree with keVin, "Next Unseen" works for me.
    
       Whenever I see a note put in by what I call a "Guinness Sponge",
    you know, someone who defines Irish "culture" in terms of drinking
    or pubs; those who are all for the "crack", and never for the "cause" -
    of democracy and independence for all of Ireland; whenever I see their
    notes I just hit next unseen.
    
    re: .14
    
       <If you are proud of your Irish heritage or interested in Irish
       <culture you do yourself no favours by ignoring one aspect of it 
       <which you dislike.  
    
    Well said Brian.
    
    <You know the names of those whose entries you are not interested in 
    <reading - you can hit next unseen without reading any text.
    
     Opps: your mask slipped again. I mean, isn't that what your Brit 
    government has been doing for the past 23 years, trying to prevent 
    people from finding out what's going on in NI?
    
    Tsk tsk.

    BTW:
    
    I'm off to celebrate Independence Day (July 4th). The day the 
    people over here kicked the Brits out their country.
    
    I look forward to the day when Ireland will have its *real* 
    independece day from the Brits too.

    Can I pick a nit (tongue, slightly in cheek here)?
         
    �   Whenever I see a note put in by what I call a "Guinness Sponge",
    �you know, someone who defines Irish "culture" in terms of drinking
    �or pubs; those who are all for the "crack", and never for the "cause" -
    �of democracy and independence for all of Ireland; whenever I see their
    �notes I just hit next unseen.
     
    �<You know the names of those whose entries you are not interested in 
    �<reading - you can hit next unseen without reading any text.
    �
    � Opps: your mask slipped again. I mean, isn't that what your Brit 
    �government has been doing for the past 23 years, trying to prevent 
    �people from finding out what's going on in NI?
    �                                 
    �Tsk tsk.
    
    He could have been refering to the "Guiness Sponges" :-) Brilliant term
    that, one I must remember.
    
    Clive
    
    PS. I thought the purpose of *all* governments was to prevent the
    population from finding out what's going on. I don't think HMG has the
    monopoly on this, although they are one of the biggest practitioners
    (sp?).

    re: .18
    
    Clive,
    
    Touche'  ;^>
    
    BTW, I thought your note .4 was a well-reasoned, impressive request
    for tolerance. Stunning, actually!
    
    <If we can't manage to have coexistance and tolerance of each others
    <differing opinions, attitudes and beliefs in this notes conference,
    <how can we hope to see peaceful, tolerant coexistance in Ireland as 
    <a whole?
    
    <Let's stick with one conference and try to practice some mutual
    <understanding and tolerance of each others views.
    
    Would that both sides in Ireland, and the British government possess
    such feeling and understanding.
    
    Thank you! 

    re: .18
    
    
    <PS. I thought the purpose of *all* governments was to prevent the
    <population from finding out what's going on. I don't think HMG has
    <the monopoly on this, although they are one of the biggest
    <practitioners
    
    You're right. We've got our own "practitioner" (or, is it perpetrator?
    ;^>) over here, the US government. We're still waiting for the 
    US government to tell us who killed JFK. 

    
    With respect to .17:
    
    "...the day we kicked the niggers out of this country.
    
    I look forward to the day when Ireland has its real independence
    day from the niggers too."
    
    That construction would be unacceptable in any civilised noting
    community. I do not see how using "Brits" instead of "niggers"
    makes it any more acceptable. If we are against racism, than
    we are against ALL racism. There are 1 million people in this
    island who are proud of their Britishness and no one (except
    a few) wants them driven out.
    
    That's the type of note we could do without. Not that I think
    the noter should stop contributing. But I think
    he should confront and resolve his own racism before preaching
    to the rest of us.
    
    Toby

    Keep it as one conference.
    
    One sentence should be enough to express your vote. Poor George must be
    worn out reading the replies.
    
    - Joe

    One conference, to which I will confine myself to the nicer side of
    things.
    

    re: .21
    
        Well, if you can't beat 'em, create a false issue or twist some
    argument around and try to slander. 
    
    Are you sure you don't work for the British government Toby?
    
        I don't know how many times I've been through this, but one
    more for the slow ones in the audience: I am a YANK. Someone who
    lives in the UK is a BRIT.
        
        As a matter of fact, I'm a YANK three times over. Aferall,
    Europeans call Americans, "YANKS"; people from the southern states call 
    us northerners, "YANKS"; and northerners call people that live in the 
    New England states, "YANKS".
    
        It means absolutely nothing to me. And calling someone who lives in
    Great Britain a BRIT has the same non-relevance to me.
     
    So take your racist example Toby and cram it where the sun don't shine.
    
    
        BTW, Toby, You've shown your true colours time and time again in these
    notes. That's a given. I notice you were the first to respond to this 
    false issue Note, and of course your vote was to divide the conference. 
    Once again displaying your lack of commitment to your culture, your 
    heritage, and needless to say, Ireland. 
    
    It speaks volumes about how you absolutely fit the description
    that Robert Ballagh spoke about:
    
      "Unfortunately, the quality colonized peoples lack is
       self-confidence: they cannot deal with the present or
       project a future because they will not face the past."
       

    This conference should be kept together, it would destroy it if it was
    broken up.
    
    
    Bernie
    

    
    	keep the conference together....
    	
    	it has alot to offer the uninformed and moreso of the value
    	of tolerance....
    
    	may those who don't, do.
    
    	denise

    As so many of you seem to think that one file is best, I've been forced 
    to reconsider my position and am now fully in favour of splitting this
    conference. There are several advantages, none of which I'll go into 
    in detail at this or any point, 'cause there is no point, you probably 
    wouldn't understand anyway. "I don't have many files in my directory so
    Celt II would look neat" will suffice for the present. If you really
    want need to know, contact me elsewhere. 
    
    My initial suggestion was that we divide along "serious" and "seriocomic"
    lines and leave it up to each individual's integrity to decide where
    they belonged, but then it struck me, "integrity"?, naw! that went awol
    years ago and hasn't been seen since.
    
    We could possibly divide upon "this" and "that" side of the Atlantic OR
    male/female (as long as there was no peeking). Using just a little 
    imagination, there is no reason why we couldn't come up with an amiable
    divide that would take into account race, creed, gender etc. guaranteeing
    and respectiog each's right to freedom of expression and choice.
    
    Then we could meet for drinks, have soccer/softball/hurling games and
    get to know and understand each other more deeply. And maybe oneday
    begin talks on reuniting the file. Imagine the celebration that would
    warrant!!! 
    
    I say split.
    
                                 M.
          
    

This conference isn't called Irish_Politics or even Ireland, it's
called Celt. There are 6 Celtic countries and Languages:
Alba (Scotland), Breizh (Brittany), Cymru (Wales), �ire (Ireland),
Kernow (Cornwall) and Mannin (Isle of Man).

You wouldn't think so reading by reading this file. 

A causal observer would think that Celt equates to only Ireland.
No one has mentioned any of the other Celtic countries in this topic.
For those who say that the conference wouldn't survive if it split,
well I have a suprise - the conference has been split for a long 
time.

There are two places to debate Welsh culture - here and GB92
There are three places to debate Scottish culture, here, SCOTLAND and GB92
You could probably debate Breton Issues in one of the French conferences too.

Whilst I have an interest in Irish things, I'm frankly bored about
reading about the troubles. After reading about them for 5 years in
here and soc.culture.celtic, it's just the same people with the same
entrenched opinions and the same angry words. There's not much
evidence of concilliation or solution. As a result, I went from
reading this conference daily to monthly.

The Scotland notesfile has political discussions in it too, particularly
also concering the role of London in that country's politics. However,
people there seem to be able to debate things in a more constructive
and rational manner without resorting to the sort of rhetoric you see
here. 

I would be in favour of keeping this notesfile as one if the debates
were a bit more interesting and constructive. Perhaps some work is
required by a moderator. Otherwise, I would be in favour of splitting
up the conference. Taking Scottish notes out of here and GB didn't
do the Scotland conference much harm.

Craig (co-moderator of Scotland)

    Re.        <<< Note 1085.28 by SYSTEM::COCKBURN "Craig Cockburn" >>>

>This conference isn't called Irish_Politics or even Ireland, it's
>called Celt. 
    
    However most of the notes here relate only to Ireland. There are very
    few generic celtic type notes. Most of those are contributed by you.
    
    
>The Scotland notesfile has political discussions in it too, particularly
>also concering the role of London in that country's politics. However,
    
    The politics of both countries are slightly different wouldn't you say.
    
    
>....................Taking Scottish notes out of here and GB didn't
>do the Scotland conference much harm.
    
    Around the time of the Scottish Notesfile split I suggested creating an
    Ireland notesfile too (i.e. Not a celtic one). My suggetion was shot
    down in flames. It would probably only involve changing the name of
    this file. This wouldn't satisfy the basenoter but at least the
    topics would be more relevant to the title of the conference. Those
    people with 'celtic' questions (of which there are few) could take it
    to any of the conferences mentioned in Craig's note.
    
    Tony.
    
    

    I'll withdraw the proposal since it is clear that, of those who have an
    opinion, the vast majority are in favor of a single conference.
    
    There was some opinion that I made that suggestion because I find
    discussions of the 'Troubles' uncomfortable.  This isn't true.  I just
    find the ranting and raving tedious.  On the odd occasion where people
    have written up well reasoned arguments, I've enjoyed reading them.
    
    One particular noter, who has so far provided fully 20% of the replies
    to this note, commented on my lack of debating skills, the policies of
    the British, and the attitudes of the Free Staters (on the apparent
    assumption that I am one), without once coming even close to commenting
    on whether they were in favor of one conference or two.  Call me
    close-minded and intolerant, but I find that a waste of time.
    
    I guess my position is similar to that of Craig Cockburn's.  While I
    recognize that the relationship between the two countries and peoples
    is an important topic in Irish life, I feel that the amount of space
    taken up here discussing it is highly disproportionate.  Just my
    personal opinion.  
    
    My solution has been, and will continue to be, the same as Craig's as
    well.  I'll read less frequently and make liberal use of NEXT UNSEEN. 
    That's too bad because, having just returned from a year in Galway, I'd
    like to follow conference more closely, but can't afford the
    time/tedium.
    
    Tom

    The notion of two CELTs files has a certain "Canadian compromise" ring
    to it; however, in the realm of expanding sensitivities here and
    elsewhere in this conference, the concept of tolerance has not yet been
    trammelled totally.  Ya, one conference.

    re: .30
    
    <...without once coming even close to commenting on whether they were 
    <in favor of one conference or two.  Call me close-minded and
    intolerant...
    
    Indeed, you deserve your own self-proclaimed description. And perhaps one 
    more too: Illiterate. 
    
    I mean, in note 1085.16, what word(s) don't you understand in the 
    following sentence:
    
           <BTW, I vote to keep it as one conference.
           
           <I agree with keVin, "Next Unseen" works for me.
    
    Perhaps while spending that year in Galway, if you had made an effort
    to go up north and see firsthand what the British government is doing
    to the Irish people, in their own country, you wouldn't be so ready, 
    and willing to stick your head in the sand. 
    
    Perhaps too, you wouldn't have been so adamant about setting up this 
    note on a lie (Note .0 that the conference is about, "shouting contests 
    as to whether it is better to kill Irish or English, soldiers or 
    civilians, adults or children." Pure crap.
    
    Oh, and one last thing. Regarding your statement that,
        
      "My solution has been, and will continue to be, the same as Craig's
       as well.  I'll read less frequently and make liberal use of NEXT
       UNSEEN."
    
     well, as you yourself said, "Call me close-minded and intolerant...
    
    Yes, but why stress the obvious?

    I believe that if people do not wan't to read the rantings and ravings
    of certain noters then they have the option of (as has been said
    before) using NEXT UNSEEN. They could also open up more topics on
    subjects that they are interested in in order to add some variety to
    the notesfile.
    
    I vote to keep the conference as one!
    
    Gerry

Just for a change I didn't hit next unseen.

So Re:
>================================================================================
>Note 1085.32               Split conference into two?                   32 of 32
>WREATH::DROTTER                                      35 lines  14-JUL-1992 13:00
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                       -< NON-ISSUE Defeated/withdrawn >-
>
>    re: .30
>    
>    <...without once coming even close to commenting on whether they were 
>    <in favor of one conference or two.  Call me close-minded and
>    intolerant...
>    
>    Indeed, you deserve your own self-proclaimed description. And perhaps one 
>    more too: Illiterate.


More name calling. As for the rest of note 1085.32 - YAWN. 

/Paul.

    The original question has been answered (resoundingly), so I've set
    this note NoWrite.  If people would like to continue some of the other
    threads of discussion, please start a new base note for them.
    
    Tom