Conference tallis::celt

re: .0
    
    Well, I suppose quoting the "Irish Times" is a step up from your usual
    modus operandi, of drawing conclusions based on opinions formulated 
    only by yourself. 
    
    Of course, the "Irish Times" coverage of the Bloody Sunday Commemorative 
    back in January was 'buried' on page 7 - a very small article
    about the 20th anniversary of the event - and not a word about the 
    Bloody Sunday Initiative to commemorate the tragedy or about anything
    else going on in the north. Since the paper is the Anglo-irishman's 
    "bible", and considering the amount of Anglophilia that the paper 
    generates, I'm surprized they even mentioned Bloody Sunday at all.
    
    Toby, don't mistake the evolutionary changes occuring in the people
    of NI as something solely controlled by a political party - in this
    case, your own personal Bogeyman, Sinn Fein. 
    
    Unlike the politcally stunted dwarfs that infest the Republic today, 
    the people of NI, who have had to put up with massive injustice and 
    lack of support from their southern Irish counterparts for the last 
    23+ years, have evolved light-years ahead of southern political midgets 
    and throw-in-the-towel shoneens - who will remain nameless.
    
    Having seen the political astuteness of the Nationalists who live 
    in the Ghetto areas of the failed statelet, I'd be willing to bet
    people like you Toby wake up in a cold sweat at the thought of 
    re-unification. 
    
    That's  because the Nationalists are your worst nightmare: while you've
    become politically stunted in the way you view not only your country,
    but the conflict in NI, they have become so politicized over the past 
    20 years, that, politically, they could run rings around you without
    even trying.
    

    re: .0
        
    <For true peace, it must be induced to renounce its maverick stance, 
    <and come within the ambit of "normal" <politics.
     
    I assume you're talking about HMG?! Unless you consider a known
    shoot-to-kill policy, the institutionalized terrorism of th British
    Army, and one judge, no jury Diplock courts as "'normal' politics."
    
    As for the evolution of the Nationalists, below is some food for
    thought. (Toby this article MAY have been written by someone
    who comes from a Sinn Fein voting district. You may want to hit "next
    unseen" to spare yourself any further angst. OK?)  
    
                                20/20 VISION
                                 MANIFESTO


         When children are more valued than bombs
         And they read the books that we write
         When women are more valued than work
         And our homes are no longer prisons
         When justice no longer huddles in cells
                                  Nor strangers crouch
                                   armed in our streets
                                  When we own our own
                                   cities and fields
                                  We will know the meaning of freedom.


         Until such time
         The cries of our cities and the groans of our land
         Will be our songs of wisdom
         Our poetry of anger and hope.
         Until such time
         Our watchful murals and graffitied thoughts
         Will be our street newspaper
         Our uncensored judgement and art.


         But while you dance to our songs
         And market our lives
         Read our lips:


                         We are the people of struggle
                         Ours is the culture of change.



                   DERRY'S FESTIVAL OF DEMOCRACY AND CHANGE

   On August 14th, 1969 the British Army drove into Derry. Twenty years later,
homes are still raided and our streets still patrolled. Communities cry out but
most in this city remain passive. Many choose the lonely refuge of emigration.
A few lend their anger to peoples in distant lands. The majority live in tense
silence - convinced that their future lies beyond their control.

   These past twenty years have been years of anger and fear. But they have also
been years of fierce argument, survival, practical cooperation, organized
resistance and dreams. These are our raw materials of the future. These are the
tools of democracy and change.

   So while the world's media historians and commentators turn this anniversary
into another episode of tragedy and pain, we will launch our first festival of
democracy and change. Through one week of drama, music exhibitions, films,
sport, playreadings, and workshops we will question our history and prepare for
the next twenty years.

   We will not simply celebrate our resistance to every form of injustice that
has scarred the lives of our communities. Through workshops based in our needs
and experience, we will challange the beliefs and expose the laws that terrorise
us into silence and fear. From the church to women's rights, from emigration
to the YTP, no question will remain unmasked in out search for methods of
change.

   For we are the generation who were born imprisoned; and we are the generation
who will not be bribed into exile. We will talk to those who marched in protest
over the past twenty years. We will learn from our past and exchange skills and
ideas. The banners, songs, plays and debate we peroduce during 20/20 VISION will
lay new foundations for our political imagination and freedom.


                                                 We are the people of struggle
                                                 Ours is the culture of change.
          

    
    
      Joe Drotter,,,,,,,  But even you MUST admit this IS forward movement
    and any forward movement is goodness.  I am in full agreement, that if
    Sinn Fein is not involved in the talks there cannot be any real
    progress.   
    
      Toby,,,,,  I can't think of a border that has been put in place or
    removed without the spillage of blood.  The British Government has
    sponsored atrocities for the past 70+ years.  It seems to me you
    are not giving correct attention to that....    
    
    There are many, many monsters playing a role in North Ireland.
    
    In my opinion HMG troops is one of the monsters.
      
    If you in fact advocate the IRA call a cease fire (truce) then you
    must, in the same breath demand HMG also call an end to the actions it so 
    easily performs against the Nationalist community.  I have seen them in 
    action and it is not a pretty site .  Especially when they are harassing  
    6 and 7 year old children just for the shit of it. Bad policy methinks.  
    
      Joe Drotter may have a inflamatory style but I personally can relate
    to all he has attested to.  (having been in NI many, many times myself)
    
      If you haven't been on the wrong end of a rifle held by one of HMG's
    finest it is hard to explain.  And before you try and relate that to
    being on the wrong end of an IRA rifle.  Remember, HMG is supposed to
    be there to protect ALL people. In the name of honor and all things
    decent....  (ya, right)
    
      I had one of those kind troops take aim on me once.  It still bothers
    me to no end. Just because I was driving on the Falls Rd was probably
    his justification. Seems it is a trick pulled hundered times a day. The only
    problem is, sometimes the trigger gets pulled.  Accidently, of course...
    
    Now that Sinn Fein has came out with these statements I wonder if there
    will be any positive reaction from the opposing sides.  If there will
    be any reaction I would profess it should come quickly and strongly in
    support, or the opportunity will be lost.  
    
    
    paddy    (who will go back to his project now)

    Toby, I agree with you that Sinn Fein must move forward
    and denounce their support of the IRA.  But hand in hand the
    British government should declare their intention to withdraw
    all military forces from Ireland.  This withdrawal could take
    1 year or could take 10 years, but Britain must make concessions
    in conjunction with Sinn Fein.  Both sides must compromise if
    peace is to be achieved.  Both sides must move forward to peace.
    
    It's time for the Irish to rule themselves - Protestant and Catholic
    alike.  Both communities are getting a raw deal with this tense
    military situation.

    
    Joe,
    
    Leaving aside the good old Cowboys and Indians stuff about
    "Anglophiles" and "shoneenism" (which is not immoral, not
    illegal, and not even fattening) please explain how you
    can identify Sinn Fein with "the Nationalists"? What
    I have set out is a Sinn Fein policy shift, how can you
    identify it with "evolution of nationalist thought"?
    The majority of Nationalists DON'T vote Sinn Fein.
    Perhaps you are commending the astuteness of the SDLP.
    Well, there I can agree with you! Or are they 
    "shoneens" too? 
    
    Ten years ago, Adams & Co were "proud" to identify with
    the armed struggle. A few months ago, they renounced 
    violence, but refused to condemn the IRA. Now they
    want "sustained peace" before British withdrawal. Well,
    if those are the rings they want to run around me,
    they are welcome to run some more, like distinctly
    distancing themselves totally from the IRA.
    
    Toby

    
    Re: .3
    
    Paddy,
    
    Having been caught at the wrong end of someone else's bombs,
    AND looked down BA rifles, yes, I can relate to what Joe
    and you are saying. However, if you look calmly at the
    statistics, you will see that the Number One killer of
    innocent people in Ireland (and England, and Europe) as a 
    result of the "Troubles" has been the IRA.
    
    I am not denying the stupid bullying of the Army, and
    the way it alienates ordinary people. However, the Army 
    is there because the police alone are incapable of 
    controlling the situation. It is a vicious circle,
    an IRA bomb causes a political outcry, more troops
    are rushed in, more road-block and searches,
    more alienation, more recruits for the IRA .....
    start the circle where you wish, it will always
    turn out the same.
    
    IF the army are to withdraw, who do you suggest should support the 
    police? The UN? That would lead to an equally bad situation on the 
    Loyalist side. The Republic of Ireland? Don't make me laugh! Turn
    the IRA and the UDA into local "militias"? Don't make me vomit.
    
    Of course I want the Army out. But Sinn Fein are right. A
    "sustained period of peace" will have to precede that.
    
    The British are the local de facto authority. They are responsible 
    for maintaining law and order, and for developing a resolution to 
    the problems. To break the vicious circle, a political solution
    must be worked out. At a moment an honourable attempt to do that is 
    in progress.
    
    On the security forces brutality issues, the most effective means to 
    address this has been to use the tactics of the Civil Rights era - 
    legitimate protest, use of the law, international forums etc. In 
    essence the issues are the same.
    
    To date, the reason that Sinn Fein has been shunted aside is that it 
    claimed by some strange alchemy to be representing the "people of Ireland".
    It had a fantasy that someday the BG were going to ignore the Dublin 
    government, the SDLP and the Unionists and negotiate directly with it
    to hand over power in Northern Ireland. It seems to have disabused itself 
    of this illusion, at least. However, it clings to the peculiar 
    notion that the whole of the Northern Ireland political world is out of 
    step, except it.
    
    It also seems to be on the point of noticing that 1 million people
    inhabit Northern Ireland, to whom their politics are absolute
    anathema, and who would fight savagely to prevent Sinn Fein
    achieving its goals.
    
    When Sinn Fein wakes up and faces the fact that it has in fact painted 
    itself neatly into a corner by continuing its association with the 
    IRA, then it can start to face reality. Until then I am all in favour 
    of churchmen speaking to Sinn Fein on an unofficial basis. But I am in 
    agreement that no real talks should begin with it until it breaks its
    links with the IRA.
    
    I do hope that the "carrot and stick" approach to Sinn Fein
    is continued, and helpful gestures are made that will continue
    to bring it into the political arena.

  This is more noting than I've done in months!!!!!!!!!!

Re:  .6

  Toby,

  I'll have to agree with you that the Army is the best recruitment tool the IRA 
has, not taking in account the discrimination in employment, education, housing,
and training once (if) employment is attained.  The nationalist community has 
taken it on the chin for decades.  The loyalist community has had the best of 
all things.  Thus, the loyalists will fight to protect their privileged status.   


If the UN ever were allowed to move in I believe the loyalist community would 
see it as a threat to their privileged way of life as it is today.  Because, the 
UN would be a non prejudiced force that would be truly neutral to both sides.  I 
believe that, in itself, would be a major threat to the loyalist community.  

I can hear Pasiley now  what, treat me the same as we treat the nationalist, not 
on your life....  

So, if I read you right you are saying the BA is doing a good job in controlling 
the situation as it presently is, and that is acceptable.  Because if the tables 
were turned  and a UN force were brought in then the loyalist community would 
revolt.  Well I say that maybe it's time for the loyalists to see what it feels 
like.  I'll bet dollars to donuts that if the shoe were on the other foot things 
would be coming to a quicker peaceful resolution.

  You said the British Army was sent in because the police force was unable to 
control the situation.  Again we are in disagreement----  The local police force  
CHOSE NOT to enforce the law and order of the day.  It's not that they were 
unable, they didn't protect the nationalist community by choice.  Remember the 
BA was first sent in to PROTECT the nationalist community because the police 
weren't doing their job.  This was probably so because the local police force 
was made up of loyalists that let the situation get out of hand.  HMG stood by 
and let it go on.  

The sad part of the whole damn BA thing is they are NOT trained to police they 
are trained to react and not evaluate the situation.  As long as they remain in 
NI no solution will be agreed upon (imo).     

  I have said it before and I'll say it again the army MUST announce a phased 
withdrawal and ALL para-military groups MUST then announce a truce before 
anything meaningful is to be accomplished.  

  About Sinn Fein's political shift.  I think most people have seen it coming 
for a couple years now.  At least I have seen it through the papers I have read.
I do believe it is a evolutionary process that has taken place.  

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not the IRA has accomplished quite a lot 
politically since 1972.  I think they were responsible for bringing world 
attention to the issues until the hunger strike.  Which threw into world 
headlines the real problems of NI and for once didn't portray it as a sectarian 
war. But a government sponsored classiest society. 

Let's try to remain open on this one for a moment.  Before 1972 there was IRA
,peaceful and political activity in Ireland trying to bring to the attention of 
the world just how bad things were in NI.  I don't think the world listened to 
those peaceful demonstrations and the political process surely proved to be a 
miserable failure as was the efforts of the IRA.

I mean if politics and peaceful demonstrations didn't fix the situation in North 
Ireland then what could????  Seems like the bullet was then put into full use 
and all of a sudden, whamo, headlines of the blatant discrimination in NI come 
to light.  I mean the nationalists could only take so much.  Conditions were 
close to intolerable back then and have improved somewhat but there is a long 
way to go yet....

I agree it is time for peaceful and political resolution to the mess HMG has 
created in North Ireland.  

You also said "the British are the local de facto authority. They are 
responsible  for maintaining law and order, and for developing a resolution to 
the problems etc........"

Tell me how the hell HMG is to remain 'objective' in your scenario????  I 
believe a third party MUST be the arbitrator in the talks.  A entity that will 
have absolutly nothing to gain and no self interest in the solution.  That, will 
be the first step in the honorable attempt to end the situation as it is today.

Again, I believe the 'talks' as they are set up will not succeed simply because 
Sinn Fein is not involved.  Someone (thing) must take the first step.  And since 
(IMO) HMG is the root of the problem then HMG must take that first step.....


And to end this rather long winded reply (and to get some lunch) I think the 
'carrot and stick' approach you mentioned is much to simplistic to work.  

A MAJOR change must take place which will involve two cultures that are at 
almost total odds to meld together and exist in harmony.  And I think ALL the 
people living it have to be open for that to happen.

paddy  (who is up to his eyes in project work and looking for a job)

 re. .6

    "However, if you look calmly at the
    statistics, you will see that the Number One killer of
    innocent people in Ireland (and England, and Europe) as a 
    result of the "Troubles" has been the IRA."

     What a load of bullshit, the statistics say that
    the number one murderers in northern Ireland have been
    the UDA, not the IRA.  The UDA (a legal British para-
    military organization) have been responsible
    for over 700 of the murders in the past twenty years.
    Where do you get your lies from Toby?
                        Mark
 

 
  re. .5
   Get your facts straight, Sinn Fein had a majority
  in the Nationalist communities.  They only lost
  because the Loyalist sent their votes to Hendron.

   Gerry Adams had a majority of votes (by 500 I think)
  in West Belfast in this election, just like he did 
  in the last two.
                         
                       Mark

    
    Re: .9
    
    By using "Hendron" you must only referring to West Belfast.
    
    It may surprise you but there is also a Nationalist community
    in Derry (the Foyle constituency) which gives a thumping 
    majority to John Hume of the SDLP every time. The Nationalist
    communities of Armagh and South Down elected Seamus Mallon
    and Eddie McGrady, both of the SDLP.In Fermanagh and Mid-Ulster,
    SDLP candidates also out-polled Sinn Fein in the last election.
    
    There is also a sizable Nationalist community in the Republic
    of Ireland (that has you reeling with shock, right?) which
    gives Sinn Fein a derisory vote every time it offers itself
    to the electorate.
    
    My point is that Sinn Fein in Nationalist terms is a minority
    party (gets about 33% of the votes of Northern Ireland
    nationalists as a whole, gets 10% of the vote in Northern Ireland
    as a whole, gets something like 2% of the vote in the island
    of Ireland).
    
    Toby
    
    P.S. You are also incorrect in your assertion about majority
         responsibility for deaths in Northern Ireland. Why are
         you only concerned about deaths in that part of the world?
         Don't dead people from the Republic of Ireland or England
         count? I will get back to this topic.

  re. .10

  Glad you brought up the SDLP, "the party favored by the
  British to control the Catholics" -Fr. Des Wilson.

  I know what your point is Toby, the same as the British
  governments point, which is to try and thrash Sinn
  Fein and the IRA every chance you get.


  re.Toby, your P.S.
"P.S. You are also incorrect in your assertion about majority
         responsibility for deaths in Northern Ireland. Why are
         you only concerned about deaths in that part of the world?
         Don't dead people from the Republic of Ireland or England
         count? I will get back to this topic."

  The UDA is responsible for the murders of almost 700
  innocent civilians, which is more than any other para-military
  organization, including the IRA.
  
  
                                  Mark

    
    Mark,
    
    Des Wilson once that "When the people choose their leaders, then
    all must listen". Apparently, HE hasn't listened.
    
    You seem to equate Irish Nationalists with Sinn Fein voters.
    Does not an Irish Nationalist have a democratic right to vote
    as he/she pleases? Does not an Irishman of ANY persuasion have
    the right to vote as he/she pleases?
    
    I don't see your point - if Sinn Fein is the be-all and end-all,
    why bother to have elections at all? With this logic, you could
    call yourself the voice of American Nationalism and demand
    that George Bush enter into talks with you straightaway!
    
    Get off it - enough jokes for one day,
    
    Toby

    
    The numbers killed in Northern Ireland are very hard to
    get broken down by group responsible, the reason being that 
    the figures do credit to nobody. You may find a 
    propaganda slant by a particular group, but seldom a 
    complete picture.
    
    The figures as far as I can gather are:
    
    Approximately 3100 people killed so far, or .2% of the
    polulation.
    
    40% have been "combatants", 60% innocent civilians, an
    incredible indictment of the warmongers on both sides.
    60% equates to 1860 people. Approximately 50% of those
    deaths have happened (according to my estimates) in IRA
    operations.
    
    Given that the IRA has slain something like 1100 members
    of the security forces (divided 50-50 between the British
    Army and local forces like the RUC and UDR), it brings the
    grim total deaths arising out of IRA operations to 2030, or
    65% of the total. 
    
    It also shows that for every member of the security forces
    it kills, the IRA also kills an innocent civilian. 
    
    Toby

    
Paddy,

Reading your note, I can break it down into the following points:

(1) Britain can't be neutral in Northern Ireland.
(2) Protestants havn't suffered enough, and deserve a taste of their
    own medicine to "see what it feels like".
(3) The IRA campaign is a success because it attracts publicity.
(4) Talks cannot succeed without Sinn Fein participation.

Let's discuss these one by one

(1) Britain can't be neutral in Northern Ireland.

This is correct. No sovereign government can be completely neutral
when it dealing with a problem between two groups within its 
borders. The US government could not be completely neutral during
the Black-White clashes of the 1960's in the Southern states of
the USA. Nor can it be completely neutral when it addresses the
Los Angeles riots, or Amnesty International reports on Human Rights
abuse in that city.

However this should not prevent the US government, or the British
government addressing these problems, urged on by international 
opinion. 

You seem to propose as a "solution" that Britain surrenders executive
authority to some shadowy international group. I do not see how this
will improve the situation. Do you include the RUC as part of the
executive authority to be withdrawn? Who will replace them?
It also seems to me that the UN is usually involved in DIVIDING
countries, not uniting them. To call in an international authority
will copper-fasten partition, not end it.

Also, if Britain surrenders executive authority, it will probably
also cease to subsidise Northern Ireland - why should it morally 
continue to do so? Will the UN, or the US, or the EC, fund a 
United Ireland? I think not.

What we have in Northern Ireland is a stalemate, but that may be
the lesser of many evils.

(2) Protestants havn't suffered enough, and deserve a taste of their
    own medicine to "see what it feels like".

I think you have not thought this one through. Ever hear of the
Enniskillen bombing? Or Bloody Friday, La Mon, Ballykelly,
Kingsmills, or Teebane? Each one was a searing hurt to Protestants.
About 50% of the security forces deaths in Northern Ireland has
been to the RUC or UDR. Most of the UDR men were local to their
own area - they were killed driving to their jobs, or in the
course of doing their jobs, like delivering the post, or milk,
or bringing in the cows. Every death has brought sorrow to an
Irish family, or an Irish town. Protestants in border counties
believe that the IRA is trying to force them off the land by
killing the young men, leaving farms open to be bought by
a Catholic.

Maybe next time you visit the North, you should explore points
of view like that of the Protestants, and see how much suffering 
they have endured.

I would say both peoples, Protestants and Catholics, have suffered
more than enough, and much of the suffering has been pointless.

(3) The IRA campaign is a success because it attracts publicity.

A history lesson - the IRA had very little to do with the early
Civil Rights agitation. Before 1969, the IRA was moribund.
Civil Rights marches were begun by a non-violent group called the
Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) led mainly
by people who later formed the SDLP. It was the likes of Gerry
Fitt, John Hume and Austin Currie who led the early marches,
getting baton charged for their pains. It was the IRA who
took it on themselves to turn that campaign into a terrorist
uprising, with the results we see today. In fact most of the 
mechanisms to combat discrimination, like Fair Employment,
one-man/ one-vote, were done BEFORE the IRA campaign. For
example, Derry city council which was blatantly gerrymandered in 
favour of the Unionists, was democratised and now elects
a Nationalist majority. The RUC were disarmed, but had to be
re-armed when the IRA starting the shooting.

Of course, terrorism always justifies itself by saying how
it attracts publicity. Even hear the expression:
"We never will forget you, Jimmy Sands", a bitter comment
on the instant oblivion that follows? In fact, the IRA 
campaign has given the Unionists as excellent moral justification
for their stance. It had disgraced Irish nationalism in the
face of the world. When the IRA kills Australian tourists in
Holland, that does not do much for Irish nationalism in Holland
or Australia. When the IRA tries to smuggle guns from Libya, that
does not do much for Ireland's image either.

On balance, the IRA campaign is probably counter-productive for
what Irish nationaliam as a whole is trying to achieve.

(4) Talks cannot succeed without Sinn Fein participation.

This may be true. Sinn Fein must be involved ULTIMATELY. That
should not prevent the current talks continuing. Even if
Sinn Fein were invited to join the talks, the Unionists would
walk out.

The problem with Sinn Fein analysis of the North is that is
fails to recognise the local problem of Protestant and 
Catholic living together. To them, "Unionism" is only 
manufactured by the English to bolster their rule. If the
English go, Unionism will collapse, or the Protestants will
all suddenly turn into Nationalists, eager to sing 
Wolfe Tone ballads about being on the "One road, marching along,
singing a Soldier's Song". This is naive, and dangerously so.

The SDLP identifies 3 strands to the NI problem:

(1) Within Northern Ireland
(2) Between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
(3) Between Ireland and the United Kingdom.

The weakness of Sinn Fein's poisition is that it only recognises
(3), but that may be changing.

Toby
    

Toby,

    Regarding your note .14...

    You broke my note down into four points.  I would like to talk to them. 
    I wanted to do this without it looking like a tit for tat but I think
    that is impossible so here it goes.

    "1) Britain can't be neutral in North Ireland."         

    But then you start talking about the U.S. and our problem with our 
    situation with Black vs White issues.  Hell, we have more than that wrong 
    here.  But you really can't see that can you.  I could talk about the 
    homeless or hundreds of other things I would like to see addressed.  

    But what I was talking about is the British Government sponsored 
    discrimination in North Ireland.  SO, why not stick to that instead of 
    creating a smoke screen.  
    
    Britain has CREATED the problem in North Ireland by encouraging  
    discriminatory practices in hiring, education, housing, and training 
    (after one is hired, if ever).  

    I still contend that HMG cannot be a objective peace broker in this 
    situation.  I base this on past practices and deeds.

    I stick to my opinion that a NEUTRAL arbitrator MUST be employed in the 
    talks.

    I see the UN as a non prejudicial peace keeping force.  Something the 
    Nationalist has NEVER had the opportunity of seeing, or, the Loyalist
    has ever had to deal with.  

    Again I say the Loyalist has had the best of all opportunities while  the 
    Nationalist has had to deal with the short end of the stick.

    You said "What we have in Northern Ireland is a stalemate, but that may be 
    the lesser of many evils." 

    I contend that what we have in North Ireland is a "war" and not a stalemate.
 
    
    
    
    
    "2) Protestants haven't suffered enough, and deserve a taste of their own 
        medicine to "see what it feels like"."  

     Toby I don't use the term Protestant or Catholic any more simply because I 
     believe the proper terms to be Loyalist and Nationalist.  This is not a 
     sectarian issue it is political. And as I have ALWAYS said "economic".

     But then you go on a diatribe talking about killing innocent civilians. 

     Do that with someone else Toby. I would rather work the cause not the 
     effect.

     What I was talking about is the blatant discrimination that is still going
     on TODAY  against the Nationalist.  

     If you have a problem with what I say because of my writing style then I
     can try to clarify the points you get confused on. 

     But you really should get off the 'death' train of thought. Look at the 
     poor soles that are to be 'hard core unemployed'  you should also 
     consider them victims of the war.

    And just as a side note I have talked to MANY, MANY people on both sides of 
    this issue.  So don't go off half baked thinking I only speak to 
    Nationalists. 

    I am willing to bet I've been to Stormont more times than you Toby.  
    
    How many Loyalists have you spoken to Toby?  
    
    How many times have you communicated with the political leaders in North 
    Ireland Toby?  
    
    I'd be more than willing to wager you a pint that my folder of 
    correspondence is MUCH thicker than yours and dates to when it was unheard 
    of to accuse HMG of wrongdoing in the treatment of the Nationalist 
    community....

"3) The IRA campaign is a success because it attracts publicity."     

    What I said Toby, was "Whether anyone wants to admit it or not the IRA has 
    accomplished quite a lot politically since 1972."  

    Then I went on to talk about how the world really didn't give two shits 
    about North Ireland before 1972.  How the political efforts for equality 
    and the peace marches didn't really highlight the real discrimination going
    on.  

    It wasn't until the IRA started its campaign did any publicity come up.  
    Politically the IRA has brought the issues to the forefront and the 
    newspapers. 
 
    It may be indirect and it may be brutal but it did bring world attention 
    to the atrocities the Nationalists were having to put up with. 

    Funny how you left out Bernadette Devlin (McAlisky) in your mentioning 
    names of marchers back in the '69' efforts for equality.  

    Don't make the mistake of even mentioning the "Fair Employment" unless you 
    can  tell us what they accomplished .  I'll give you a hint.  They never 
    recommended one discrimination incident in their history.  

    With the minority being 2 1/2 times more likely to be unemployed there was 
    never a charge of discrimination. Do you really believe that possible Toby?
      
    Don't you think there could have been 1 just 1 case in all those years????  

    How about the employment/training record of Shorts or Ford?  

    And now that the "NEW" Fair Employment body is in place (since 1989) please
    tell us how many cases have been reported?  
    
    Want another hint Toby?  
    The number is something less than 1.....

    I don't see how you could condemn the actions of the IRA unless you also 
    condemned the actions of the British Army, RUC, UDR, UDA, INLA, IPLO, and 
    the zillion other para military groups.  
    
    In case I am not being clear Toby I think the RUC, BA, and IRA are all 
    equal in the atrocities committed.  So when you talk about the IRA killing 
    innocent civilians in the world then you had damn well better condemn HMG 
    for killing innocent civilians in North Ireland.  They are ALL guilty.

"4) Talks cannot succeed without Sinn Fein participation."

    This is ABSOLUTLY essential.  There should not be an "ULTIMATELY" as you 
    put it. It should be NOW.  

    So your reasoning for them not to be in the talks is because the Loyalists 
    would walk out?  

    Isn't that discriminatory on the Loyalists front?  Think about that one
    Toby, just for a minute...  

    Doesn't that PROVE beyond a doubt that the Nationalist isn't viewed as an 
    equal?

    If push came to shove, the SDLP, I am sure would have NO problem with them 
    being involved....  I think the Alliance Party would also agree to it.

    I learned something a long time ago that HMG obviously doesn't understand. 

     "In order for a Major Change to be successful the Major Players MUST be 
      involved from the beginning"

    And yes Toby that means I see Sinn Fein as a Major Player.






     For what it's worth for years I have believed this is an 
     economic/equality situation and NOT sectarian.

     Once the Nationalist are treated with respect and equality then the 
    situation in North Ireland will be on the path to recovery. And not a 
    moment sooner.  

     Once the church gets out of politics and back into salvation the 
    situation in North Ireland will be on the path to recovery. And not a 
    moment sooner.  

             Let the flock be led to God and not the ballot box. 

    No matter how much money is pumped into the area, if everyone isn't able 
    to reap its benefits equally then it will be all for naught. (You may want
    to check out the grants taken away from the Conway Mills in West Belfast, 
    and for what reasons. Or the refusal of grant money to Temple Mor' in Derry)



paddy

Let me take the four headings in order to reply:

(1) 

Granted you can define what is happening in the North as a "war",
that does not invalidate the point that the British Army probably 
provides the best back-up to the police at the moment.
    
I find people like you who talk about UN troops are usually being
glib and have no ideas about the difficulties this would entail.
UN troops get involved in policing truces in conventional wars,
(sometimes) in offensive action if there is a massive violation of 
international law, or (sometimes) in separating armies or communities 
in the event of a outbreak of massive communal violence. None of these
are true in Northern Ireland, and besides, the UN will only get
involved with BOTH SIDES agree - which will probably never occur in
Northern Ireland. 

Also a country policed by the UN usually remains politically 
divided and unstable. Cyprus and Lebanon are still divided.
There are also at least half a dozen countries which are worse
cases than Northern Ireland, and in which the UN has not got
involved.
 
And assuming that British Forces are to be withdrawn, do you
include the RUC in this? Who will provide the police force
in this case?

Nevertheless, I would be in favour of UN involvement if I thought
it would no any good. But I don't think it would.

(2)

Excuse my "diatribe" but killing innocent civilians is a key issue
at stake in Northern Ireland. Your insensivity on this point is 
only possible from one who lives a safe distance away and can turn
his head from unpleasant facts. 

You talk about "root causes". Even hear of the people who turn
to alcohol because of a problem? After a while, alcohol BECOMES
the problem. This has happened in Northern Ireland, and terrorism, 
which seemed a quick fix twenty years ago, has turned
into a monster. This was underlined at the weekend when the IRA
dumped the tortured and naked bodies of three "informers" on the
border. They were IRA men or ex-IRA men who had turned to petty
crime and racketeering for cash. 

There is a cycle of violence in the North which is sucking in 
young men, and which must be broken. The simplest way is for
the IRA just be give up its campaign, and for Sinn Fein to
concentrate on political action.

I believe that there is no minority grievance in Northern
Ireland which cannot be addressed peacefully. And there are
very few which are going to be resolved violently.

(3) 

I think you are demonstrably wrong in your perception of events
in the North in the period 1969-72. In this period, the North
attracted no end of publicity, most of it intensely favourable
to the Nationalists. Since the IRA campaign began in earnest,
the attention that Northern Ireland gets in the international
media has dropped off until now it hardly gets a mention on
the front pages. The IRA campaign has also allowed the Unionists
off the hook, as they now present themselves as a people
under attack, beleaguered by the forces of terrorism like 
Israel. Indeed, there is an element of truth in this.

The IRA have also distracted attention from the root causes
you wish to address.

I admit that discrimination exists in Northern Ireland. I admit
it is scandalous that this is the case, and pressure must be
brought to rectify that. But people like you who push
for that should not simultaneously be lured into tacit 
acceptance of the IRA's methods. Discrimination cannot be
tackled by shooting Protestant Irishmen. The Presbyterian
moderator said recently "The IRA cannot unite Ireland by
shooting their Protestant neighbours." Can you argue with
that?

Also, if the root problem of the North is economic, than
what is stopping investment there? Can it be that the
perception of Northern Ireland is a place where terrorists
bomb factories as "economic targets" and demand protection
money from business men? Who is responsible for this
perception? There is not an enormous gap in wealth between
Nationalist and Loyalist - both are poor in income terms
by European standards. Its not as if there is an big cake
to divided up more equally.

You obviously know more about the Fair Emp. Commission than I
do. For me I am happy it is there, and would like to see it kick-started.
But efforts at social engineering to reverse discrimination
are going to be slow in any event - look at the relative
slowness of affirmative action in the case of blacks in the
US, where blacks are poorer now than they were in the '60s.
Currently, with a background of violence and economic slump,
things are even tougher.

There is a stronger right than equality - the right to life.
The IRA are no respecters of it.

I disagree that the IRA can be held to be equal to the 
state security forces. For example, the Irish Government
recognises the British forces as the executive authority
of the North - otherwise the Gardai and Irish Army would
not co-operate with them. The IRA is an illegal force
without status, North or South.

Of course I condemn vehemently human rights abuse by the
security forces, just as I condemn that beating up of 
Rodney King in Los Angeles, and the human rights abuses
there that have been highlighted by Amnesty International.
But that does not mean I propose a UN force for Los
Angeles.....

(4) Your assertion that the SDLP and Alliance would agree
to participation by Sinn Fein in talks is ludricious, and
shows that, on this at least, you are grossly out of
touch. Both parties are adamantly against such participation,
as is the Irish government.

For your information, John Hume did sit down with Sinn Fein
in 1987-88, just months after the Enniskillen bombing.
He took a lot of flak for it. As far as I know, he asked
the IRA to stop it campaign, and offered some sort of united
front to Sinn Fein. It was refused, and he hasn't been back since.

The majority of Nationalists are behind the SDLP and the Irish
Government, it is Sinn Fein who has opted out. Sinn Fein has
a very low poll over a whole of Ireland, but aspires to
a stronger bargaining position because it is the political
wing of the IRA. As a democrat, you must also reject the
attempt by anyone to replace ballots by bullets (to paraphrase
Abraham Lincoln).

I also extend to the Unionists of Ireland something in which
I believe as a democrat - the principle that these people 
have a right to determine their future and should not be
coerced or cajoled into any United Ireland entity.

My own belief is that we must maintain peaceful protest about
abuse and discrimination in Northern Ireland. We must seek
a political compromise with our Protestant fellow-countrymen
which will probably involve us surrendering or modifying some 
of our cherished beliefs and aspirations. Terrorism and
violence from all organisation and sections of the community
must be opposed.

    You mention Derry at the end of your note. Twenty years
    ago, Derry represented all that was wrong in Northern 
    Ireland - it was gerrymandered to constantly allow
    a Unionist majority on the city council. Yet today,
    Derry is a thriving vibrant community. It has a 
    University - a sore point twenty years ago. Nationalists
    now have a majority on the city council. But
    it has a Unionist mayor, by SDLP consent. REcently
    the President of Ireland, Mary Robinson, visited
    Derry, to a welcome reception from all sides.
    
    You can go on looking on the dark side if you
    wish, but what I see is shades of light and dark.
    We just have to work to extend the light.
    
Toby

    

  re. .16

  Toby,
   re. point (2), those three men who had been shot
  by the Irish Republican Army were working as informants
  for the British intelligence service while they were
  still in the IRA.  These three men had also been
  responsible for the abduction and murder of Margaret
  Perry near Portadown.  Looks to me like justice has
  finally caught up with them.



                           Mark

  re. .16 and the RUC


On March 9, 1992, Conor Maquire told the Anderstown News that he had
spent two days at Castlereagh Center where he claimed the RUC made
threats to give his security details to a loyalist murder gang.  He
said, "They gave me a straight choice: I could start supplying them with
information ... or I would be set up for a loyalist assassination squad.
Over the past two years I have been arrested a number of times and ...
never been charged with any offense, but on each occasion the Special
Branch has come into the room and put pressure on me to work for them
... At the minute I'm moving from house to house, but they know where I
work,"
On May 1, he was assassinated at work by a loyalist hit squad.
(Anderstown News, 5/2/92)


  Gee Toby, now why would anyone want to remove this
 "police force"?
                   Mark

    re .17
    
    I didn't realise two wrongs made a right. At some point, the cycle
    of violence must be stopped. I get concerned when people consider
    taking of lives to be justice.
    
    re .18
    
    I'm not defending the RUC, in fact it wouldn't suprise me at all to
    find out that someone in the RUC had passed on the information to a
    loyalist assasination group. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me
    at all if they hadn't. Police forces throughout the world use that kind
    of threat to extract information from people. And sometimes they carry
    out the threat. And people get maimed or killed as a result. If you're
    going to come down heavy on the RUC for this one (and you may well be
    justified) then you should also come down heavy on any police force
    that does this.
    
    Clive

    Get the name right, the "B SPECIALS" or better still the Black and Tans
    versions 1990.
    
    Ren�

    
    Re: .17
    
    It may be true that these men were informants. It would not
    surprise me. It is definitely true that they were involved in
    petty crime and racketeering - that was reported in two
    Irish Sunday papers, based on interviews with people in the
    Portadown area. They may also have murdered Margaret Perry.
    
    The point is that these men did NOT get a fair trial. They
    were tortured first to give confessions and then shot. The
    bodies were degraded before and after death, and the hooding
    and beating was symptomatic of the assassinations carried
    out by death squads.
    
    Mark, if you are serious about justice in Northern Ireland
    how can you condone an injustice such as this? If torture
    and death without a trial or appeal is your definition
    of justice, then Diplock Courts are infinitely superior.
    Yet I seem to remember you are AGAINST Diplock Courts!
    
    So torture and murder are o.k. when "our side" does it
    (as long as they can trot out a half reasonable excuse) but
    when "the other side" do it, apparently it must be
    judged on an entirely different set of rules.
    
    Well, at least we know where you are coming from when
    you enter your stirring "Where is Justice?" notes in
    the future.
    
    Toby

    
    
      RE:  .16
    
     I guess we see this from a different frame of reference.  We use our 
    life experiences to influence our position in all areas.
    
     Again I don't want this to be a pissin match.  I can agree with some 
    of your points Toby, but some of them seem out in left field.  As I am 
    sure some of mine must seem to you.
    
    
    
    I do define what is happening in North Ireland a 'war'.  But I do not, 
    for one second, believe the BA is the best back-up to the police force.  
    
    I see the BA as the acting police force for the 'warring' factions.  
    And we all must agree an army is not a police force.  Nor are they 
    trained to be one.  And they certainly aren't impartial.  Which in my 
    mind makes their presence a major cause for the actions of the 
    Nationalist at this time.
    
    Again I believe the introduction of UN troops is a step in the right 
    direction.  The UN being neutral would be much more impartial towards 
    the policing of the area.  The stumbling block to the UN's involvement 
    is, back in 1960-61? I believe Great Britain declared the situation in 
    Northern Ireland an INTERNAL problem thus preventing any UN action from 
    even being discussed.  So at this point involvement of the UN is really 
    a moot point.
    
    You are correct in saying the UN is not the political bridge needed.  I 
    again say the real clues to any kind of settlement are,
    
    1) financial investments to get the unemployment down especially for 
    the Nationalist.  What this will accomplish is getting the people off 
    the dole and to work. Which will eventually bring up their self esteem 
    and confidence in the system.  Presently the system heavily favors the 
    Loyalist with employment.  
    
    2) get the church out of active politics.
    
    3) truly integrate the housing estates and areas.
    
    4) strongly encourage the education system to integrate and give 
       financial rewards for doing so.
    
    5) a zillion other things in an attempt to get the communities living 
       together in some semblance of harmony.
    
    Again none of this will happen until the rewards and punishment are 
    dealt out in a more equitable way.  Again I'll say, if the Loyalist 
    community were treated in the same manner as the Nationalist community 
    real solid change would be an easier task.  
    
    
    We are in agreement that terrorism is an awful thing.  But it 
    exists....  The BA has committed many a terrorist acts but I don't see 
    condemnation of them...
    
    Yes three men were killed last week.  They were killed for crimes 
    against the IRA.  For being informants against the IRA....  That is 
    acceptable action in a war time situation.  And since you agree this is 
    a war then I don't know what the problem is.  Every military entity has 
    a 'uniform code of justice' and the punishment for violating the code 
    is known up front.  So what's the problem?  The fact they were 
    tortured.  I imagine this was done in order to extract information 
    about the enemy.  That has been done in many,many wars.
    
    HMG is a big offender and participant in terrorism, as evident in the 
    Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, and many others like Brian MaGuire. He was hung 
    until dead (by accident) in Castlereagh during interrogations.  So I say 
    if one violates a wartime code then justice must be administered. Otherwise
    there is no discipline and it becomes a mob and not an army.  Even the 
    guerrillas fighting in the deepest jungles or deserts have rules that must 
    be obeyed.
    
    
    I again agree with you and feel the era from 1969 to 1972 did bring 
    world attention.  I just don't think it brought world understanding.  I 
    never said I push for the IRA's methods.  I do believe that if the IRA 
    were to unilaterally stop all activity today then HMG would do 
    absolutly nothing to bring equality to North Ireland.  I say that based 
    on HMG past actions.  
    
    You talk about the affirmative actions in the states being slow and I 
    again agree.  But affirmative action in North Ireland is non existent 
    and has been for generations.  We have laws in the U.S. to help right 
    those wrongs.  In North Ireland there are no such laws. To be truthful 
    there are laws AGAINST affirmative action (positive discrimination).  
    And sadly enough job discrimination is as bad today as it was in 1968 
    or for that matter 1928.  
    
    One case study I did while in North Ireland.  XXXX Co. company hired 9 
    people from 1988 to 1989.  Out of those 9 (XXXX Co. is located in West 
    Belfast) 1 was a Nationalist the rest Loyalists.  
    
    For those that aren't familiar with West Belfast it is a Nationalist 
    area.  Instead of hiring from the immediate area (unemployment rate of 
    87%) XXXX went as far away as 13 miles to hire a secretary.  There were 
    300 applicants for the job, 95% from the West Belfast area many of them 
    100% qualified.  But XXXX Co. found it necessary to hire someone 13 
    miles away.  By the way the secretarial pool is STILL 100% loyalist.  
    That is just one example of how it really is today.....  The Fair 
    Employment Commission has yet to make a ruling on this 1989
    case.  A real energetic lot they are.
    
    I am more than convinced the SDLP, Alliance Party and Irish government 
    would be receptive to Sinn Fein being part of the talks right now.  I 
    am convinced of this because they have said they should be included at 
    some point.  I still say if ALL major players aren't part of the 
    'change' the 'change' is doomed to failure.  I consider Sinn Fein a 
    major player.
    
    I do oppose bullets in place of ballots wherever possible.  But I also 
    believe there are times then bullets and not ballots is the right way 
    to go.  If I didn't believe that we would probably still be flying the 
    union jack over here.  Contrary to popular belief the War for 
    Independence was not a popular move at the time.  The majority of this 
    country wanted to remain under the safe skirts of HMG.
    
    I also don't want anyone confused with my political position,  I am a 
    Republican through and through.  Not a democrat as you wrote Toby. 
    
    I also support peaceful and political protests for the purpose of 
    gaining equality. That route has been going on in North Ireland since 1922.
    With no appreciable results  
    
    Just how long should the Nationalist remain in the gutter before they 
    are treated with respect Toby?  When do they get the jobs, education, 
    housing, etc.?  When is it finally justified to turn to the gun in the
    defense of your God givin right to equality?
    
    paddy

	Paddy,

	I think we can "agree to differ" on some points. Some of your
	other points however demand comment, "pissing contest" or
	not. Apologies - it is another long one. I just havn't time to
	prune it.
    
    > 1) financial investments to get the unemployment down especially for 
    > the Nationalist.  What this will accomplish is getting the people off 
    > the dole and to work. Which will eventually bring up their self esteem 
    > and confidence in the system.  Presently the system heavily favors the 
    > Loyalist with employment.  

	As I mentioned in my note, a major stumbling block to investment
	is the "war" you accept so blithely. For example, millions of
	pounds of damage was caused to "economic targets" in the past
        year by the IRA. Who is going to invest in building a hotel,
        a factory or a supermarket when you don't know if it will 
        survive? Can you imagine what the insurance rates are?
	An IRA ceasefire is a pre-requisite for this plank of
	your solution. The poverty you decry is as much due to the
	IRA campaign as to discrimination (probably more so).
	
    > 2) get the church out of active politics.
    
	Amen, but that's a bigger challenge here in the South than
	in the North. Besides is hard to find the gap where "clerical
	interference" merges into "advising the faithful".

    > 3) truly integrate the housing estates and areas.
    
	Yes, amen, but only after the guns stop firing. And who will
	move first? 

    > 4) strongly encourage the education system to integrate and give 
       financial rewards for doing so.
    
	This is truly the one where the Catholic church has to give
	ground. And also it is worse if anything in the South.

    > 5) a zillion other things in an attempt to get the communities living 
        together in some semblance of harmony.

	Amen. An IRA ceasefire would be an excellent way to start. As
	long as it continues, getting Protestants to overcome their
	insecurity and fear of being coerced out of the Union is a
	pipe dream.

    
    > We are in agreement that terrorism is an awful thing.  But it 
    > exists....  The BA has committed many a terrorist acts but I don't see 
    > condemnation of them...
    
	Let me also repeat that I abhor state terrorism as much as
	any and I am not totally satisfied with the probity of 
    	security force activities. I also recognise the right to rebel 
    	against tyranny. I am not a pacifist, but a pragmatist. However 
    	I do not believe that the state of affairs in the North requires
	a war for its resolution. And I do not (like you do)
	extend to the IRA a sort of benign acceptance that
	"we have the same aims". I believe in the context of a goal for
	a United Ireland, the IRA campaign is counter-productive
	and will cause DISUNITY rather than unity. The only
	peace it can bring is the peace of the desert or the grave.
    
    > Yes three men were killed last week.  They were killed for crimes 
    > against the IRA.  For being informants against the IRA....  That is 
    > acceptable action in a war time situation.  And since you agree this is 
    > a war then I don't know what the problem is.  Every military entity has 
    > a 'uniform code of justice' and the punishment for violating the code 
    > is known up front.  So what's the problem?  The fact they were 
    > tortured.  I imagine this was done in order to extract information 
    > about the enemy.  That has been done in many,many wars.
    
	I cannot see how you can put yourself forward as dissenting 
	from the IRA, yet accepting its manifest injustices with only 
        a shrug. When let our natural sense of humanity become numbed 
	or confused, then we should start worrying. Even "Republicans" 
	should.

	"Crimes against the IRA" is a contradiction in terms as
	the IRA is itself a criminal organisation (North and South
	of the border). Nor is the IRA a legitimate state that can
	enact legislation defining what a "crime" is. Woolly thinking
	on your part. Very low marks.
    
	You must realise that the IRA is not a benevolent
	institution fighting against injustice. It is an armed
	conspiracy against the state, whose only interest in
	injustice is how it can use it to support propaganda.
	This armed conspiracy takes the form of a terrorist
	elite conducting offensive and punitive operations
	without regard for human life. Its activities are
	less about rectifying injustice than about GAINING 
	POWER and keeping it by undemocratric means.
    
	It is good that you have exposed absolutely why Sinn Fein (and
	its fellow-travellers) have no right to use Amnesty International
	and similar institutions to bolster its propaganda. You and
	others calmly accept injustices by your own side which are 
	utterly repugnant to Amnesty. How can you legitimately demand
	the British Government to raise its standards of human rights
	when you turn a blind eye to your own side's transgressions?

    > HMG is a big offender and participant in terrorism, as evident in the 
    > Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, and many others like Brian MaGuire. He was hung 
    > until dead (by accident) in Castlereagh during interrogations.  So I say 
    > if one violates a wartime code then justice must be administered. Otherwise
    > there is no discipline and it becomes a mob and not an army.  Even the 
    > guerrillas fighting in the deepest jungles or deserts have rules that must 
    > be obeyed.

	The IRA is not a "guerilla army". Its structure is a cell
	based clandestine organisation, typical of many other 
	terrorist bodies. No doubt it likes to present itself
	like the Viet Cong or the Algerian NLF but in fact
	it resembles more the Red Brigades.

	At least, the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 are now free, while 
	the people murdered by the IRA in Birmingham and Guildford
	are still dead. What restitution is possible for the injustice
	of the court decisions has been made. What restitution has been made
	for the IRA's mistakes? You seem to be pushing "Republicanism
        right or wrong", which can be used to justify anything.
	Are you really saying that "our side" is not subject to 
	any moral sanction whatsoever? But "the other side" is?

	And what right has the IRA to make war on behalf of the Irish
	people? What right has it to makes the "rules" you accept without
	question? At every election, the IRA has failed to gain any sort
	of electoral mandate.  The old concept of the "just war" is a 
        good one - one condition for making war is that what can be gained 
        is worth what must be sacrificed. Is the prolonged poverty and
	suffering for all people in Northern Ireland worth it, to end 
	"job discrimination", something you can't even quantify
	properly, and which demands stable conditions for it to be properly
	resolved? Another condition for a "just war" is that some sort 
        of mandate must exist for it, and that it must be waged by an
	authority deriving from that mandate. The IRA's "war" fails on all
        these counts.

	It must be noted that the IRA has the same justice code as the
	Mafia. Where do you draw the line? At the bank robberies and
	kidnappings of businessmen like Don Tidey and Ben Dunne? At
	the kneecappings and beatings? At the racketeering? How can you
	expect Protestants who observe the law to move into housing
	estates where the IRA practise this code of justice? Yet
	by (3) above that's exactly what you expect!
	
    	Go back and read your own list of solutions. Now tell
	me where IRA violence supports each one. 

	People like you who are articulate and intelligent, who
	love liberty (so I'm sure you would say), yet who suffer
	a sudden attack of blindness or deafness when confronted
	with injustice perpetrated by the IRA, are a bloody
	menace. You just "pass by on the other side" rather than
	ask the tough questions of yourselves.


    > I again agree with you and feel the era from 1969 to 1972 did bring 
    > world attention.  I just don't think it brought world understanding.  I 
    > never said I push for the IRA's methods.  I do believe that if the IRA 
    > were to unilaterally stop all activity today then HMG would do 
    > absolutly nothing to bring equality to North Ireland.  I say that based 
    > on HMG past actions.  
    
	This is very close to saying that the IRA must continue in
	order to bring about a solution. You will find that before
	1972, when Stormont finally collapsed, the following
	actions had been taken:

	- The RUC were disarmed (later re-armed because of the IRA)
	- "One man, one vote" legislation had been passed.
	- Local government had been re-organised so that Nationalists
	  now have majorities on councils where they are a majority
	  of the population.
	- Local elections and European elections are under proportional
	  representation, guaranteeing the minority seats in proportion
	  to their numbers in the electorate.
	- A housing executive had been set up to allocate housing
	  on a equitable basis. This body is still there, doing
	  its job (as far as I know) without criticism.
	- The mechanisms for Fair Employment were set up, though
	  I must concede they do not work as fast as I would like.
	- Laws are on the statute books against Incitement to
	  Hatred.
	- Northern Ireland has the best set of incentives in Europe
	  for foreign investment, and could be well positioned to
	  take advantage of an economic recovery, if there was
	  peace.

	These go a long way to addressing the demands of the Civil
	Rights and Peoples Democracy marchers of 1969. Two major
	areas of disagreement still remain:

		(1) The administration of justice.
		(2) Job discrimination.

	(2) is a problem but you still have not explained
	how the IRA campaign can bring the investment necessary
	to redress the balance. I DO know that "positive
	discrimination" is not possible in Irish or British
	law, though "negative discrimination" can be made
	illegal. Nor do I see how the continuance of major
	injustices by the IRA will contribute to (1).
    
    > I am more than convinced the SDLP, Alliance Party and Irish government 
    > would be receptive to Sinn Fein being part of the talks right now.  I 
    > am convinced of this because they have said they should be included at 
    > some point.  I still say if ALL major players aren't part of the 
    > 'change' the 'change' is doomed to failure.  I consider Sinn Fein a 
    > major player.
    
	I guess we just don't read the same newspapers. Your understanding
	of the Alliance party is pretty confused. It is unionist (with
	the small "u"!). They don't have much time for Sinn Fein, and
	neither do the others. Why do ALL the parties have to accomodate
	Sinn Fein? Besides IRA support, what has Sinn Fein got that
	is so special? 10% of the vote?

	Saying they should be included at some point is fine, but what
	that means, Paddy, is the point where Sinn Fein renounces
	violence. No one is about to hand Sinn Fein a propaganda coup
	in awarding it a spurious legitimacy by entering into serious
	talks with it at this point.
    
	When it decides to talk, Sinn Fein should have about the same
	amount of influence as Alliance, becase they share a roughly
	equal percentage of the vote. Are you saying that Sinn Fein
	should have MORE influence than that? Is that what you mean
	by a "Key Player"?

	Of course they must be involved .... but they opted out by
	their own choice. I know you are not a democrat, but expecting
	representatives of 90% of the electorate to surrender a key principle 
        (not to talk to supporters of violence) to accomodate the
	representatives of 10%, is a bit much! It gets even more 
	horrendous if you think of Ireland as a whole (North and
	South), where the proportions are 97% and 3%.	


    
    > I also don't want anyone confused with my political position,  I am a 
    > Republican through and through.  Not a democrat as you wrote Toby. 
    
	My dictionary defines Republicanism as "the holding of the
	highest offices of the state by those elected by the people".
	Thus democracy must be a belief of a TRUE Republican. Then
	again, Lenin Mao and Castro all founded "republics" too.
	You seem to subscribe to their brand of "Republicanism".
	Democracy also must have a strong element of tolerance of
	minorities and it is noteworthy how you deny this in 
	your political philosophy.

	Wolfe Tone sought an Ireland where "Catholic, Protestant and
	Dissenter would be known by the common name of Irishman".
	Explain how the IRA's "Republicanism" supports this.

    > I also support peaceful and political protests for the purpose of 
    > gaining equality. That route has been going on in North Ireland since 1922.
    > With no appreciable results  
    
	I think if you read above you will see that the "Orange state"
	was dismantled in 1972. Job discrimination is going to take
	longer to root out, but it is a consensus across the political
	divide that it must. ALL parties (even Paisley's DUP) agree
	on a Bill of Rights in the North. Abuse by the security forces
	COULD be ended, it would help in a major way if the IRA stopped
	first.



    > Just how long should the Nationalist remain in the gutter before they 
    > are treated with respect Toby?  When do they get the jobs, education, 
    > housing, etc.?  When is it finally justified to turn to the gun in the
    > defense of your God givin right to equality?

	Your unstated premise is that the problems of the North
	cannot be solved in the context of Northern Ireland under
	British rule or even some sort of "confederal" British/ Irish
	arrangement. But you cannot seem to demonstrate how 
	changing that context can solve any of the problems you
	mention one bit. 
    
	Of your trio of causes "jobs" is the only one I would agree that
	is an issue. On housing, I believe that houses are now allocated
	on non-sectarian lines. Education in the North is 
	state subsidized, and Catholic schools are every bit as
	good as Protestant ones, and as well-supported.

    	On jobs, we agree that investment is the priority. But I say
	it cannot happen in parallel with an IRA campaign that sees the
	destruction of the fabric of society as contributing to its
	aims. 

	And if Nationalists are in the gutter, they are joined there
	by many Loyalists, by many Southern Irish - indeed by many
	throughout Europe and the USA who labour under conditions 
	just as difficult. In fact there are MORE Unionist
	families below the poverty line than Nationalist,
	(though it is indeed a smaller percentage of
	their community). If this justifies a war, why arn't
	Loyalists supporting the IRA? Why are not the poor
	in the South supporting the IRA? Why are you not
	agitating on their behalf?

	I found the following data on class differences in Northern
	Ireland (from 1984, but I doubt if it has changed significantly
	since then):

	Class:		E	D	C2	C1	B	A

	Prot(%):	3.8	25.6	26.7	26.1	11.4	6.4

	Cath(%):	7.0	30.7	29.8	22.0	8.0	2.5

	It shows (no surprise) that Catholics tend to be of lower social
	class. However it does not show an ENORMOUS difference
	between the religions. C2 is the median class for both
	(50% below, 50% above). It shows a substantial Catholic
	middle class. If you assume that Protestants are 60%
	of the population, then there are as many Protestant
	families as Catholic in the D and E (lower) classes.
	Does this justify a "war", Paddy? If anything is
	true today it is that war brings innocent deaths and
	poverty in its wake, and should not be entered into
	lightly. 


	I have nothing but pity for the youth of the Catholic
	areas who get involved in the IRA. The young men who
	die or get arrested are usually teenagers or in their
	early twenties. They are the long term employed, frustrated
	and alienated. But they are no different from the long
	term unemployed in thousands of housing estates across
	Europe and the USA. My anger is reserved for the leaders
	of the IRA who cash in on their disaffection, puts guns
	or bombs into their hands and sends them out as SAS fodder. 
	
	I re-iterate my strong belief that turning to the gun in
	Northern Ireland by an amoral elite of self-styled
	"Republicans" is counter-productive and will postpone
	indefinitely an Ireland that can unite hearts and minds.
	Wolfe Tone's vision, in other words.

	Toby
    

    Toby,
    
    Holy Moley  349 lines.  This must be a record(not counting Snakes
    Potted history of Ireland).  I don't think Drotter can do one that long.  
    
    Since I'll be looking for a job for the next few days I'll have to wait 
    til next week to answer.  If I don't find one it looks as though my last 
    week will be in August.  No official word I am in the next TSFO hit but a 
    VERY strong hint. Looks like I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time.  
    
    Maybe we can have a "Paddy goes to one last Celters party soon, very soon". 
    
    paddy

    
    re: .24
    
    <Maybe we can have a "Paddy goes to one last Celters party very soon..."
    
    
       Maybe. But only if YOU'RE buying.   ;^>

    
    Paddy,
    
    I'm living through something like that myself at the moment .....
    
    Beidh l� eile ag an bPaorach. Good Luck.
    
    Toby

    
    	you're a sniveling cheapskate, ::DROTTER!
    
    	paddy,
    	i think it's an excellent idea....post your availability,	
    	and i'll see if el cubano is interested.
    	...and i'll even buy you a beer (if you'll let me).
    
    	BRUNO's for karaoke nite! (just a suggestion)

    "....and now de end is neearrrr....."
    
    ....and so we face de final curtain.....!!!"
    
    Karaoke died a sudden death in this country after  a life of only 2-3
    months. Is it still going strong in the States??
    

    
    	did you run out of characters???
    
    	here in the states we have an endless supply.