Conference tallis::celt

    Please grow up, Mark.  Intelligence gathering of a military, diplomatic 
    and commercial nature has been a government activity since the nation 
    state was first created and will continue to be as long as the nation 
    state continues to exist.  
    
    I have not the slightest doubt that MI6 gathers intelligence both in 
    the Republic and the States as I have not the slightest doubt that the 
    CIA does in both the UK and the Republic and whatever the Irish 
    intelligence service is called does in both the UK and the States.
    
    Joe

 I see, so it's ok for British Intelligence to steal
 American business secrects.  As someone who works for
 a U.S. based company I find that offensive.  Now, don't
 you also work for that company?

 I also find it offensive to think that our "ally" is
 spying on people in the U.S.  Your nations 
 "intelligence" agencies have no business here in the
 United States.  I will be taking this issue up with
 my state senator.  I also think that a concerted 
 effort must now be enacted to make the general public
 aware of this crime.
                     
                    Mark

    I have little doubt that your senator will pat you gently on the head
    and send you home to mummy, Mark.  Your government is one of the worst
    of the lot.  Where in hell do you think the Denied Parties List of
    foreign companies with which Digital is forbidden to do business comes 
    from?
    
    Joe

    
    RE: .2
    
    When you discuss this with your Senator, don't forget to express your
    outrage at US Companies engaging in similar practices.  The 'System'
    works both ways...............doesn't it?
    
    

  re. .3
  "I have little doubt that your senator will pat you gently on the head
    and send you home to mummy, "
  Are you personally offended when you see democracy
  at work?  Do you find it such a distasteful thing
  that others would be active in what their governments
  do? 

  re. .3 and .4  "The British myth of tit for tat continues"
  This is not about companies engaging in spying on
  U.S. companies.  This is about British intelligence
  agencies spying on U.S. companies, with the goal of
  stealing U.S. technology.
  A House Judiciary subcommitte is holding hearings 
  on the situation this week.

                         Mark

    
    My personal opinion is that I do not want MI5 to take the lead in
    anti-terrorist activities because they are too shadowy an
    organisation to be monitored effectively. 
    
    However, I do hope the British get their act together in combatting
    terrorism: a noter above asked "What scum would murder little
    girls in cold blood?". Danielle Carter was just one such little girl,
    she was 15 years old when she was killed in the IRA bombing in London on 
    April 10th. Her little sister was severely wounded. Two other adult men
    were also killed. Her mother told a television reporter "Danielle
    always said that Northern Ireland should be left to the Irish to run".
    Is it surprising that "scum" was the word she used to describe the
    people who planted the bomb?
    
    Here was a vital young life that could have contributed something to
    peace in these islands. The IRA's response was to kill her in an 
    indiscriminate and ruthless bombing campaign.
    
    Danielle's murderers are still at large. Let's hope, not for long
    more.
    
    Toby.

    
    re .6
    
     I guess you've forgotten about the two young girls killed by the
    Loyalist paras last year.  How convenient.  How sad.
    

    re .7
    
    It appears that if you enter a note in this conference criticising the
    IRA, somebody will immediately come back with a "what about the UDA,
    UFF, SAS..."
    
    This is starting to annoy me. Most Irish people condemn and abhor the
    actrocities of the paramilitaries in the North. The actions of the IRA
    are exacerbated by their claim to be acting on our behalf. That is why
    we single them out for criticism --- not because we condone the
    activities of the Loyalists, but because we wish to state in clear and
    simple terms that while we may aspire to a United Ireland, we do not agree,
    condone or support the killing, bombing and maiming that the IRA carry
    out in the mistaken belief that it will achieve this aim.

                
    Sad ... sad ... What is this ... Celt against Britain
    You are ALL forgetting that Britain is made up of England Ireland
    Scotland and Wales... Wales the only celtic speeking country.
    Scotland ... the last Celt stronghold .. the home of the true celt and
    a Strong in the following of king billy. Ireland .. the mass of which
    is south and is still celt and england ... where i am true celt and 
    a practiceing pagan. how can a simple comment on the fact that sombody
    proud of there country and pissed cos the UK intelegence has been
    looking at your technology get into a racial slanging match.. and whats
    more ,,, why the hell was it put in a note dedicated to celtic vuepont
    why dont to just start a note called anti britain...
    I think you should get your head out of your asses and realise the
    problems are CELT KILLING CELT what ever the denomination, and you
    should be stopping the bloodshed instead of takeing sides on something
    you could not understand.
    secondly to the first noters point ,,,
    
    secondly ... it never stops amazeing how people get pissed off when
    a common known/exepted fact suddenly gets published...
    of course ci5 must snoop on your busness.. and every other bugger in
    this world ...where the hell do you think you get your lists from of 
    companies that you cant sell things too . its compiled from information 
    gatherd from CI5 fbi fcc mi5 cia interpol and evry othe investagation
    system in the free world and the US can not be exemplified from this or
    you will find yourselfs the center for illeagle bombmakeing.forgery and
    fraudulant behavior 
    
        please dont hide this note 
    
    Dave niblock

    re : Note 1042.9 by KERNEL::NIBLOCKD 
    >>	Sad ... sad ... What is this ... Celt against Britain
    >>  You are ALL forgetting that Britain is made up of England Ireland
    >>  Scotland and Wales...
    
    
    Very sad indeed. Let me be the first to admit that I forgot that
    Ireland made up part of Britain. When last I looked, Britain was made
    up of England, Scotland and Wales.
    
    'forgetful' Tony.
    

    Re: .8
    
    Exactly! But try telling that to the Drotters etc. in this conference.
    
    Re: .9
    
    Ireland ceased to be part of Britan long ago!
    
    Gerry

    re: .11    By G_Larkin

    <Ireland ceased to be part of Brita(i)n long ago!
            

      Not bad...for a shoneen. It's hard for me to believe you actually
had the *courage* to write something like that. Esp. since you (and a lot
of your felow countrymen) have never had the guts to go and stay in the
Bogside or West Belfast for any length of time so you could see first-hand
what Britain's war machine is doing to Irish people on your own island.

    Of course, West Brits like you haven't figured it out yet, but let me
give you a clue: mouthing British propaganda that it is a *crime* to want
to drive out the land-stealing, colonialist Brits from your country is the
real reason for the continued conflict in the north of Ireland.

    You haven't got the GUTS to stand up for your own country either
militarily or politically. All you can do is just sit there and grovel
for your British conquerers -  parroting the words and cliches that
they gave you. In case you haven't noticed, other countries had the
guts, drive, and wherewithal to ignore that Brit government propaganda
and drive out the exploitive, theiving British parasite colonials.


    Do names like India, Palestine/Israel, Cyprus, Malaya, Kenya,
British Cameroons, Brunei, British Guiana, Aden, Borneo/Malaysia, and
Oman mean anything to you? Here's a clue: countries that didn't
swallow Brit crap that it's a crime to resist British imperialism.


           "In the past, cultural genocide was practiced on the
            Irish (by the British.) Now however, this has slowly
            and subtly changed to cultural suicide. Self-confident
            nations do not abandon their history, culture and traditions.

            Unfortunately, the quality colonized peoples lack is
            self-confidence: they cannot deal with the present or
            project a future because they will not face the past."

                                                       - Robert Ballagh


    Southerners like you have abandoned your Nationalist brothers
and sisters in the north. Having been there a couple of months
ago for the 20th anniversary commemoration of Bloody Sunday, (So, where
where you for the rememberance of this bold-faced murder of your
fellow countrymen by the British Army, Gerry?), I don't believe
Jimmy Maguire's statement in .8  is correct: the IRA are *not* acting
on behalf of you Free Staters, they are acting on their own behalf.

    Everyone in the north that I've met realizes that they've
been stabbed in the back by their southern neighbors - abandoned really,
left to fend for themselves against the might of the British colonial
military presence. Thanks to your lack of support, the IRA are the
only thing your fellow countrymen in the north have left.

    But that's OK: your collective consciences will be cleared of guilt
momentarily - when shoneens like you wash your hands completely of the
nationalists by doing away with Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution.
A political "coup de grace" for those troublesome nationalists from
the north.

   I realize you've bought the Brit government's propaganda, hook, line, and
sinker, but there are British people that know better too:

     "The basic cause of the Irish problem is the presence of the
      British in Ireland and always has been. As long as British
      forces remain in Northern Ireland, the situation is frozen.
      Nothing decisive can happen until they go.

      My own view has never changed: British troops should be withdrawn,
      if not immediately, then at some stated date in the near future.
      Their presence is not helping helping towards a solution, rather
      prolongs the deadlock and even strengthens it."

                                               A J P Taylor (historian)
 
   So, all in all, you sir, are a disgrace to the name Larkin, and Pearse
and Connolly and Tone. And all the other Irish men and Irish women that
have paid the ultimate sacrifice to rid your country of the one thing that
has been the root cause of all the violence and bloodshed for 823 years,
the British colonial presence.

    
    
    			Gosh!!

    re: .12
    
    Feel better now, Joe ??
    
    I wouldn't dignify your diatribe with an answer.
    
    Gerry

    re -1
    (((theiving British parasite colonials.)))
    
    ang on a mo... er are you living in the 1200 
    
    I am english from liverpool and come from the O'holleron,s 
    in the south of ireland I was allso christend catholic 
    I'me not a loyalist or a christian or a terrorist
    
    If a person of Pict decent decided to shoot me because he cosiderd 
    me an irish colonialist you would consider it a waist of time or
    at best an act of misguided murder
    
    .. look what you are saying man
    your argument is with the british goverment not your fellow countrymen 
    or the british people. and by the oppisit factions, shooting shit out of
    people that dont wish to get involved just fules the fire of hatered
    against the irish people and convinces the powers that be that you are
    not fit to goven yourselves...
                                      
    on another point how can an american take the viue point that the
    english should leave ireland when he lives in the US if FOREIGN
    people belive as thay say in democracy then thay would become BRITISH
    and partition from within not sit in there countries and sling mud at
    a once proud nation that has worries of its own

    re: .15
    
    <your argument is with the british goverment not your fellow countrymen
    <or the british people.
    
    I agree completely. Unfortunately, the British government has convinced
    more than a few of it's subjects and sadly, some Irish people as well,
    that it (HMG) has a right to keep the land it stole from the Irish
    people during its colonial, imperialist expansion period. 
    
    HMG has also successfully hoodwinked not only its people, but some 
    Irish as well into thinking that the Irish (all the people living on
    the island of Ireland) do not have a right to self-determination,
    or democracy in determining whether or not Ireland will be united.
    Instead, HMG keeps stacking the deck by demanding that any vote
    about Irish unity be done in the apartheid, racist, discriminatory,
    gerrymandered state of "Northern Ireland."
    
    HMG also likes to pretend to its subjects, and the world at large, that
    it is really, "an honest broker, bravely standing between two warring
    factions of Irish, catholics and protestants in (Northern) Ireland."
    
    NOTHING could be further from the truth.
    
    Unfortunately, HMG has convinced some southern Irish of there role as
    "peacekeepers" in the north of Ireland, and that, in order to remove 
    that warring threat, has been trying to  convince the Irish themselves 
    that they should remove Articles 2 and 3 from their Constitution.  
    
    Of course, there is NEVER ANY MENTION ABOUT HMG *PREPOSTEROUS* and 
    *SPECIOUS* CLAIM IN ARTICLE 20 OF THEIR GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND ACT.    
    
    In this case Mr Niblock, my arguement is not with British people, nor
    Irish people that have a sense of history, Irish that are not afraid 
    to claim what's rightfully theirs, that are not afraid to stand up 
    against one of the worse injustices since Britain started stealing 
    other peoples' countries and wealth: the denial of self-determination
    and democracy in Ireland by the Irish themselves. 
    
    My arguement is with people like Mr Larkin that have abandoned their 
    history, culture, and traditions, who are ready to believe that
    a foreign, colonial army of occupation (The British Army) with a proven
    shoot-to-kill policy used exclusively against Irish nationalists is 
    actually a "peace-keeping" force.
    
    <on another point how can an american take the viue point that the
    <english should leave ireland when he lives in the US if FOREIGN
    <people belive as thay say in democracy then thay would become
    <BRITISH and partition from within not sit in there countries and sling mud
    at a once proud nation that has worries of its own
    
   I hate to be so blunt, Mr Niblock, but your grammar, and syntax leave a
    lot to be desired. I do not understand what you are saying in this
    incredibly long sentence. Please rewrite or explain in other words.
    In all honesty, is the English language, your first language? Or,
    are you translating this into English.

    Once again all true Irishmen have to put up with this shit from Brit
    hater, Drotter.
    
    I live in Ireland, I pay my taxes in Ireland, (already too high) and we
    have nearly 300,000 unemployed people and their dependants to feed and
    Drotter thinks we can fight an Island of 57 million people with 3
    times as many armed men in the North alone as is in the entire 26 counties.
    
    If the Argentines couldn't defeat the Brits on their own turf and the
    Brits being 8,000 miles from home, how can you expect the Irish to
    defeat the Brits 13 miles from their island with the support of the
    million protestants who certainly wouldn't fight for the Irish state?
    How then, making the awfully big assumption that we can defeat them, do
    we go about sharing out the land? How far back in history do we go? Do
    you think that Europe would stand for it?
    
    Having seen the state of the US on the telly lately I can do without
    any of Drotters rabble rousing cant at the moment. 

    
    
    The Aregentines were beating the crap outa the Britts in the Falklands
    but the U.S. decided to save them from embarrasment.
    
    now back to the regularly scheduled debate.

    Mr.Dooleys opinions would be an accurate reflection of the opinions of
    99% of people living in Ireland,North and South. 
       Well said John. 

    RE. .18
    
    ?????
    
    If I recall, The U.S. foreign policy was to be friendly towards the
    Junta, and Regan didn't want to be seen taking sides. Sure, The U.S. 
    gave the British Govenrment loads of dollars in military aid, 
    But "save them from embarrasment"?????
    
    BTW, My opinion is the the Falklands should've gone back to Argentina.
    It was particularly sad that there were Welsh Guardsmen fighting
    against Welsh-descended Argentinians drafted in against their will.
    
    Huw. 

    I have refrained for a long time from taking part in these
    Irish/British discussions but
    
    	HEAR ! HEAR ! Mr. Dooley
    
    	Well said!

    
    
    To continue the rat hole. Yes we did.
    
    We played too much of a role in the conflict.  But then Ron had to
    stay friendly with Maggie.  Argentina was really pissed at us.
    

  Just for the record.  Those islands off the coast of
  Argentina are called the Malvinas.  Please call them
  by this correct name, so we all know what you are
  talking about.


                         Mark

    
    re .8
    
     Stick yer flame.  Apparently yourself and numerous others here feel
    the IRA act in a vacuum, the only villains in this tragic situation,
    and that is truly sad and discouraging.  
    
     Further, that you find it so damned easy to ignore the travails of 
    the Nationalists of the north in favor of British propaganda reflects
    a fear so profound you're willing to live with your head in the sand.
    Yes, I know...you "condemn" and "abhor" the killings by "everybody",
    as though you hold a monopoly on the awareness of grief caused by
    the war.  You don't.  But unlike many others willing to put themselves
    at risk by speaking out against this travesty of justice, this 
    APARTHEID, you are content to stand on your "moral outrage" and 
    forget that this disgrace was not caused either by the Nationalists or
    the IRA, but by the Loyalist power-mongers and compounded by the
    presence of British mercenaries, empowered by "law" to shoot to kill
    those innocents you so ardently, yet impotently "defend".
    
     Discouraging and sad.
    
         

    Just for the record, Friend Holohan, your talking through that portion
    of your anatomy normally reserved for sitting upon.
    
    The Falkland Islands were first discovered by a British naval
    expedition, claimed for the Crown and named after the first Lord of 
    the Admiralty.  At the time they were discovered, they were
    uninhabited, and, at 500 miles, well without the territory of any
    sovereign power.
    
    Argentina, at the time, was a colony of Spain.
    
    Neither Britain or Spain settled the Falklands.  However, Spain did
    establish a depot for revictualling ships en route to and from the
    Americas, manned and protected by a small garrison.
    
    This garrison was overcome by the British Navy during a war with Spain,
    following which the Falkland Islands Company was floated and the
    islands were settled.
    
    All this occurred before Argentina became a sovereign state.  When
    Argentina became a sovereign state, the territories it inherited did
    not include the Falkland Islands, South Georgia, the Sandwich Islands 
    or any of the vast swathes of the Antarctic to which it currently lays 
    claim.
    
    As, prior to being discovered, the islands were uninhabited and Argentina 
    has never settled its own citizens any of the territory to which it
    lays claim, Argentina has no valid claim in international law to any
    part of the territory it currently claims.  The only nation that has
    any possible claim is Spain.  However, as Spain only garrisoned it
    rather than settled it, it is very doubtful whether their claim would
    stand even if they were interested in pursuing it.
    
    Such being the case, the Falkland Islands 'belong' to their inhabitants
    who have an inalienable right to self-determination.  As long as the
    Falkland Islanders wish to remain a colony of Britain, and the
    British agree to maintain responsibility, then they have a perfect
    right to remain a colony of Britain.  Should they demand independence
    from both Britain and Argentina, then they have a right to that.  If
    they wish to join with Argentina, they have a right to that.
    
    The government belongs to the people, not people to the government.  This 
    is a basic and fundamental human right.
    
    Bearing in mind the nature of the government that existed in Argentina
    at the time in question, and the historical nature and instability of 
    past Argentinian governments, I believe that the choice the Falkland
    Islanders have made is an eminently sensible one.  I believe they have
    the right to be supported in that choice until such a time that they
    come to believe that their interests would be better served either by
    total independent or joining with Argentina.
    
    It appears, friend Holohan, that your hatred of the British is so
    all-encompassing and pervasive that you will happily sacrifice any number,
    of innocents, Irish, British, American or whatever, upon the altar of 
    your obsession.
    
    Joe

                                                                 
     -1 hear hear ( I THINK)
    
    .18 the US helped the brits cos the argies where kicking are ass
    
    
    I bet you realie belive that dont you,
    
    and you think we fall for properganda!
    
    as a mark of respect for the british men that died defending 
    an isle that has a 100% british population
    
    YOU ARE FULL OFF SHIT   get your head out of your ass 
    
    
    
    re 16. point taken... sorry ... by the way ime verry dyslexic
    

    Re: .27
    
    At least he is blessed with more wit than is needed to mock a dyslexic 
    for illiteracy, Frankie dear heart.
    
    Methinks you need adjust your dress.  Your hypocrisy is showing.
    
    Joe

    
    I can not spell, my LITERACY sucks.. i admit it and i am working on it
    
    you are a Bigoted, and ignorant,  you dont realise it and you are not
    prepaird to open your mind to reality
    

    Have a heart, Niblockd old sport.  Were Frankie ever to open his mind,
    the stench of it would gag the world.
    
    Joe

    
    
    sigh!
             

    This conference has reached an all time low! There was a time when one
    could reply to a note without fear of being verbally attacked, called
    names and scoffed at for being dyslexic etc.. I think the Drotters and
    Chaplins of this world should take a course in common courtesy and also
    learn how to debate a topic without insulting everyone with an opinion
    that differs from theirs.
    
    Gerry

    
    re .33
    
     Look here, Sport...your note could just as well point at yourself.
    I entered a note earlier in the string and got "flamed at" for 
    expressing my opinion.  And .24, while "flaming" as well, calls no
    one names.  Yet you see fit to accuse ME of "name-calling" simply 
    because you don't agree with my position.
    
     A sad day indeed, young Larkin.
    
    
    

    I never said that you called anyone names. What I said was 'the
    Drotters and Chaplins of this world should take a course in common
    courtesy and also learn how to debate a topic without insulting
    everyone with an opinion that differs from theirs'. My refersnce to
    name calling did not mention your name. (Could 'Sport' be regarded as
    name-calling, I wonder?).
    
    Take a pill, young Chaplin
    
    Gerry 

    
    re .35
    
     I suggest you're being a tad selective in your criticism.
    
     Go back and read .26 and tell me what level of "manners" is expressed.
    
    
    Frank
    
    

    Friend Niblock's condition was quite apparent, Frankie, and should not
    have required explanation.  Yet, rather than address yourself to the
    content of his replies,  you continued to abuse him for it, even
    after it had been revealed to you.
    
    Of course, being well acquainted with you, I expected little else of
    you, as your penchant for attacking the messenger rather than
    addressing yourself to the message is legendary.  One would wish that
    you might have been able to develop some small wit in that meagre
    respect, but alas you remain ever repetitive and obvious.
    
    One has little doubt that you similarly abuse the blind for not seeing
    and the deaf for not hearing if their political opinions do not
    entirely mesh with yours.
    
    Which was why I warned you that you were exposing yourself in public.
    
    Joe

    re: .36
    
    Maybe..... but I was giving .26 the benefit of the doubt....being new
    to the Notesfile. You, on the other hand, are a noting veteran, and
    well known for your 'talents', as is expressed in by Mr. Woodrow.
    
    
    Gerry

    
     Yes, Larkin, I'm quite certain you and Woodrow see eye-to-eye on all
    kinds of matters.  That you both share that quality of blindness to the
    pain of others is a GLARING similarity.
    
     So carry on, young Larkin.  Your sentiments are duly noted.   
    
     

    re: .39
    
    Yeah Frank, there's a real Irish patriot that Larkin - agreeing with Joe
    Woodrow.       
    
    Imagine, Joe Woodrow: a sterling pillar of peace in Ireland. 
    A racistly anti-Irish, neocolonialist Brit, who just before he left,
     wrote that he agreed with and saw how "just" the Unionist cause was.
    
    A racist neocolonialist Brit who servred with the British Army in
    Norhtern Ireland, the so-called "security forces" that like to beat up
    nationalists, kill children with plastic bullets, and have a known
    shoot to kill policy against the Irish nationalist community.
    
    Perhaps Woody would like to tell Mr Larkin what it's like to ransack a
    nationalist's home at 3:00am, terrorizing whole families and
    neighborhoods? 
    
    Or really be brave Woody and tell us - ever "off" an Irishman
    in NI while enforcing British colonial "justice" thru the barrel of a
    gun? Just curious. 

     re: .17
    
    <Once again all true Irishmen have to put up with this...
 
    That's really rich coming from you, DOOley. I'm surprized you'd admit
to being in here (the CELT file), or have the time - I mean you're always
so busy with your Brit buddies over in EF92, flitting from note to note,
adding your ever so *poignant* and *witty* banter to their self-contained
dialogue.

    I bet they like having a right-friendly 'Oirishman' like you around.

The rest of your note is rather rambling. First talking about paying taxes in
Ireland, then making a quantum leap to having the Irish nation take on Britain,
but then again, the Irish couldn't possibly do that, after all the Argies
tried it and they lost, and Ireland has so many mouths to feed, and how can we
do it, and blah, blah, blah.

Dooley, I have no idea what you're babbling about. Also, please show me where
I've said Ireland should go to war with England.

    
    <Having seen the state of the US on the telly lately I can do without
    <any of Drotters rabble rousing cant at the moment. 


    In obvious reference to the LA riots, I'm really glad you brought this up.

    Again, being so busy, fawning all over your Brit buddies in EF92, I'm
surprized you've had the time to notice what's going on, 6,000 miles from
Ireland.                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^   

    Of course, shoneens like you NEVER find the time to notice what's been going
on in your own back yard in the north of IRELAND for the past 70 years -
compliments of the intruding, colonialist Brit government.

    I like that - selective vision (a.k.a. "Shoneen Vision.")


    Frankly, Fooley, let me tell you what your West Brit eyes won't let you see
in your own back yard.

    There is absolutely no difference between what happened in LA, and what has
been happening in YOUR country for the last 70 years. I know it will be hard for
you to see the comparison, not having stayed in the Bogside or West Belfast
for any length of time. Nor would you hear anything of this problem from your
Brit buddies in EF. But do try to follow along with comprehension, OK?

     Picture it Fooley: years of discrimination in jobs, housing, and
education, in which the majority continues to deny the minority any real
"equal opportunity" to these basic human rights.

     The infrastructure (government, judicial, security/police) decidedly,
and racistly stacked against the minority.

     The police given a free hand to use as much brutality as possible to
"contain" and suppress the minority. 

      The legal system having a blind eye to police excesses in the use of force
to supress the minority. 

     All of "their kind" jammed into substandard housing in one area. It's
called a *ghetto*. Can you say, "ghetto", Fooley? I knew you could!

     Massive unemployment and the dole in this ghetto area.

     Hopes dashed, lives wasted, despair rampant. 

     Abuse after abuse, piled on, year after year.

     Peaceful civil rights marches and attempts to get equality, initially
met (starting in the 60's both here and in Ireland) with police violence,
tear gas, water cannon, night sticks and excessive use of force. Later, after
much escalating violence and bad publicity, minor concessions given to the
minority. No real changes.

     Then the fateful day comes, when the minority has had enough. The minority
literally explodes in rebellion, riot, and rage. You know, Stooley, you can
only beat a dog so much, then it's just not going to take it any more.

      Of course, the minor difference between the situation in your own back
yard and over here is, there may actually be something done over here this time.

Afterall, this is the 2nd time it's happened in LA, and it is an election year.
At least, let me say, the *appearance* of something getting done will be made.

    Whereas, over in Ireland, the British government will only continue to
"flog the dog" (trying to beat the nationalists back into their ghettos),
exacerbate the problem with more troops, perform more assassinations, and
continue to "solve" the Irish Question with the same old brutal 19th century
colonial methods - even though it's a 20th century socio-economic problem. 
Their attitude is: if you've got a system that works, why mess wuith it? And
after 200+ years of repessive colonial mearures, why change now?
       
     Of course, shoneens like you, seeing the world thru "West Brit-colored
glasses" and believeing all that spoon-fed Brit propaganda - that the Irish
have no right to their own island, that the Irish do not have a right to
self-determination and democracy, will gladly sell your birthright for a bowl
of Brit porridge by repealing Articles 2 and 3. 

     I guess my only question at this point is: is Brit propaganda really that
*good*, or is it that shoneens like you are really that weak?

    You see, there you go again, Frankie.  Rather than address yourself
    to anything Gerry has said, you endeavour to discredit him by association.
    
    While, being only half Irish, brought up and living in England, I hesitate 
    to speak for the true Irish, I believe there to be a broad concensus that
    the way forward for Ireland lies in the reconciliation of the two
    communities and traditions that inhabit the island, and that the rabid
    rantings of ignorant Americans, in this note_file and elsewhere, do
    nothing to aid this cause and much to hinder it.  I believe that 
    people in this notes-file are becoming more than a trifle brassed off with 
    being exploited by you and your cronies in furtherance of your anglophobic 
    fantasies and your presumption in claiming to represent and speak for the
    the people of Ireland.
    
    Joe

    
     I speak for no one but myself, Woodrow.  I have family involved in
    the north, so at least this "ignorant American" has an interest in
    the issue, unlike you who has for years denigrated Ireland, its people
    and the cause of justice in the north.  Newcomers should be aware of
    the hatred toward the Irish that has been your trademark.
    
     As for discrediting Larkin by association, it brings to mind a little
    saying...'if it LOOKS like a duck and QUACKS like a duck, it's probably
    a duck'.
    
    Thanks a load.
    
      

    re: .39 .40 
    
    So because I agree with Joe (Woodrow) on one point I am suddenly 'all
    things bad'. Well if it makes you two happy to feel that way, then
    that's ok with me. Actually you both make good comedians, if the topic
    wasn't so serious
    
    re: .41
    
    Mr. Drotter has just clarified my point, once again. This time the
    victim, John Dooley, being chastised for noting with British employees,
    being called various names etc..
    
    I rest my case.
    
    Gerry

    re: .44
    
    
    YYYYYYYAAAAAaaaaawwwnn.

    As I stifle the urge to report this outrage to the proper authorities I
    would like to remind Drotter and his ilk that we know how to deal with
    his like in Ireland.
    
    Should he ever get to visit here again.
    
    

    re: .46
    
    <I would like to remind Drotter and his ilk that we know how to deal with
    <his like in Ireland.
    
      
     And what exactly is that way to deal with my like in Ireland, Mr.
    Dooley?
    
    Extradite me to the north, or Britain, where my chances and those of
    Irish people, of getting a fair trial are about as equal to that of a 
    black person in Depression-era Mississippi circa 1932???? 
    
    Do tell us, Mr. Dooley.
          

>    If the Argentines couldn't defeat the Brits on their own turf and the
>    Brits being 8,000 miles from home, how can you expect the Irish to
>    defeat the Brits 13 miles from their island with the support of the
>    million protestants who certainly wouldn't fight for the Irish state?
    
    The Brits cannot defeat the Irish either. Don't forget that Irish
    Independence was won not on a outright military victory but on guerilla
    tatics which weiged down the Brits.
    
    A famous Brit army general back in 69 said the I.R.A. would be defeated
    in a short time, obviusly a short time for a Brit general is undefined
    as almost 30 years after the troubles started, the is no victory. The
    British have and will continue to pay a heavy price of the occupation of
    Ireland both economically and in human life.
    
    
>   How then, making the awfully big assumption that we can defeat them, do
>   we go about sharing out the land? 
    
    In the former COMMUNIST countries land is being handed back so why not
    in Ireland, a THIEF IS A THIEF IS A THIEF.
    
    
    Ren�

       <<< Note 1042.42 by PEKING::WOODROWJ "The Purple People Eater" >>>
    
>    rantings of ignorant Americans, in this note_file and elsewhere, do
>    nothing to aid this cause and much to hinder it.  
    
    I find most of the Americans in this conference are well educated on
    the Northern Ireland problem in this conference. Some of them have had
    at least the guts to go there and see for themselves.
    
    > I believe that people in this notes-file are becoming more than a
    > trifle brassed off with being exploited by you and your cronies in 
    > furtherance of your anglophobic fantasies
    
    Most continental EUROPEANS tend to suffer from ANGLOPHOBICS. It is a
    sickness caught by coming into contact with the great BRIT culture,
    their command of foreign languages enamours them to foreigners, the
    supreme efforts to adapt and not critize other cultures makes them
    welcome everywhere, especially at airports returning home.
    

    Its a nice morning here in Ireland and I am pleased to see both Joe and 
    Ren� have revealed their true natures to the world for all to see.
    
    Joe's use of the soubriquet " Fooley " worries me not at all, it was
    last used on me by ten-year-old school-boys when we were young and
    childish and thought it very clever to call each other names.
    
    Most people have gone by that stage by 11, or 12 years of age.
    
    Ren�s sweeping generalisations, if applied against either the Blacks or 
    indeed, the Irish, would engender howls of outrage and indignation from
    those in the civil liberties movement. No doubt some of the British
    contributors will refute his views but it sounds akin to race hatred to
    me. Also by his assertion " once a thief, always a thief ", he shows his
    belief in a perverse form of Irish Lebensraum in the North, a kind of
    land-grabbing in reverse that would be fiercly resisted by the million
    Protestants in the North and would result in bloody civil war.
    
    Most property in the South is owned through titles that came through
    generations of landlords that originally confiscated it from the Gaelic
    lords of old, are we in the south going to have to find those rightful
    owners and pay them? Is it possible to sort out the tangled web of
    history? If Ren�s suggestion was to be carried out it would have to be
    implemented throughout the whole island, not just the North. 
    
    As for what we'd do to Joe, there was a time not so long ago when I
    thought the Offences against the State Act and Detention without charge
    were all wrong, after reading the rabble-rousing material that this
    character writes here I now see them as necessary to protect the public
    order and peace of this State. 
    
    

    
    Maybe not my place to ask, put could a few people go into 'time-out'
    and cool off ?.    I used to enjoy this Notes conf ( have been an avid
    reader for years ) and found it educational.
    
    Sadly I now find it aggressive and personalised, which I believe breaks
    lots of rules.
    
    As an Irishman who in no way claims to be an expert on history, I
    believe there must be a better way to propose solutions or points of
    view.   Maybe there isn;t and maybe thats why its been such a sad
    situation for so long.
    
    sorry about this,  but the last 20 notes or so in this have got me.
    
    gc

    
I agree with the sentiments expressed in the last note. I find it sad to see
so much bitterness here. I would just like to make one comment which I hope
will help to cool things a bit.

I have said in the past that just because some Irish people are critical of 
British policy in the six counties, it does not make them terrorist 
sympathisers. Likewise, just because some people are critical of IRA violence, 
it does not make them any less Irish or nationalist.

Denis.

    re: .50
    
    <As for what we'd do to Joe, there was a time not so long ago when I
    <thought the Offences against the State Act and Detention without charge
    <were all wrong, after reading the rabble-rousing material that this
    <character writes here I now see them as necessary to protect the public
    <order and peace of this State.
     
    What a sad, nay, tragic note. 
    
    It's bad enough you believe the British colonial military presence that 
    is tearing Ireland apart deserves to be there, but when you're 
    reduced to invoking supressive legislation to either avoid hearing 
    another person's opinion or to brand that person as a "terrorist" to shut 
    him up, then indeed you are a victim of the cultural suicide and 
    self-censorship that pervades the Republic these days, - and you don't 
    even realize it. My condolences for you. 
    
    BTW, as a point of order Mr Dooley, you work for an American company, 
    and the Notesfile is located here in America. I realize free speech 
    is frowned upon in the Republic, esp. when it comes to discussing the 
    North,  but free speech is still in vogue here. - At least until the 
    Brit government figures out a way to stop it over here too. 
    
    Perhaps that great Irish patriot James Connolly was right:
    
        "It is well to remember that nations which submit to conquest or
         races which abandon their language in favour of that of an
         oppressor do so, not because of their altruistic motives, or 
         because of a love of brotherhood of man, but from a slavish and 
         cringing spirit, from a spirit which cannot exist side by side 
         with the revolutionary idea."

    re: .51
    
    Exactly, Gerry!
    
    This is what I have being trying to say, but have been branded as a
    'Brit Lover' etc.......which by the way I do not find insulting....just
    because I give my opinion. The freedom of speech, which some noters
    claim is a right, does not seem to apply in here. 
    
    Maybe you have a better way with words than I have, and hence may have
    better luck.
    
    Gerry                                            

    Geepers, off for a week at DECUS and a donnybrook breaks out!
    
    Can we tone it down a bit and remove the personal insults?
    As Rodney King so eloquently stated "We're all stuck here for
    a while, can't we get along?"
    
    /George

    
     Well, I guess MI5 got the green light from HMG to begin operations.
    
     Just what Ireland needed...another terrorist organization.
    
    

    
    Re. .48
    
    RE: "Once a thief always a thief"
    
    Just like to point out that the Protestant settlements in Northern
    Ireland began simultaneously with the English settlements in the
    Americas. Thus if logically the lands of Northern Ireland are
    to be returned, let the lands of Massachusetts, Virginia and all 
    of the United States be returned also to their rightful owners
    - the Indians.
    
    It was also at this time that black slaves began to be transported
    in large numbers to the Americas. Not only were these people 
    dispossessed, they were also deprived of their personal liberty
    and made to live as slaves. If the ancient wrongs of Ireland are
    to be righted in the fashion suggested, then this wrong must also
    be righted. 
    
    If people in the US want justice in Northern Ireland, shouldn't
    it begin at home? Shouldn't they show good example?
    
    Toby

    An interesting parallel that - comparing the return of Native lands to
    the Natives with the return of Protestant settlements in NI to the
    Irish.  Here in Canada, large tracts of land (mainly in the north) have
    been returned to various tribes (Cree, Dene...) and the Inuit (eskimoes
    to those who still use the derogatory term) along with large sums of
    money (guilt payments maybe).  The most recent land claim settlement
    was the vote taken by the Inuit inhabitants of the Eastern Arctic in
    favour of forming their 'distinct society' and calling the area
    Nunavit.  This is an area about the size of Europe!
    
    For those of you who may have an inkling of the situation with Qu�bec
    and the rest of Canada, it's interesting that the Inuit and Cree of
    Qu�bec lay claim to over 85% of the land mass of the province.  The
    remaining 15% is over-populated and polluted anyway.  If the Natives
    are successful here as well, they will have returned to them a land
    mass about the size of France and Spain whereas Qu�bec will become
    about the size of mainland Britain.
    
    So, it can be done, but do you want to do it?
    
    
    Pat

     
    I can't help being slightly cynical, but how many cities of over
    1 million inhabitants are there in the Eastern Arctic?
    
    My own view would be to give to the Indians land that has not been
    exploited, and compensate them for lands that has been opened up in 
    the last hundred years. For example, the oil-bearing lands of
    Oklahoma were fraudulently taken from the Indians around the turn
    of the century. This wrong has never been righted.
    
    Going even farther back is self-defeating. Of course, one should
    try to realistically accomodate all cultures in whatever society
    you are building, but trying to sort out the who owned what all
    over America (not just the USA but Canada, Mexico, Brazil ....)
    in the 17th century would be an insuperable task, and not even 
    morally justifiable.
    
    And why stop at the 17th century? One could decide to dispossess 
    Norman-Irish families like my own (and the Darcys, Barrys, Fitzgeralds, 
    Roches...) because we are not "really Irish" either, but arrived as 
    colonists in the 12th century.
    
    I'm afraid the whole notion is absurd. Ancient wrongs should be left in
    the past, and let's start from where we are RIGHT NOW.
    
    Toby

    
    .58 what about the Mohawks?  Is Quebec ever gona leave them alone.

    
    re .57
    
     Convolutions.  Northern Ireland is an ARTIFICIAL political entity,
    formed by an ARBITRARY border, based upon the will of a religious 
    minority and an impossible geopolitical history, maintained by force 
    of arms.  If one can rationalize the legitimacy of such a state, then
    one can rationalize ANY invasion anywhere.
    
     The point is now, not for Britain to "give the land back", but to 
    make it possible to form a viable political entity acceptable to ALL
    of the people of the island, not just by the terms of an artificial,
    gerrymandered majority in the north.
    
       

    Toby, There have been wrongdoings against native peoples all over
    the world.  I'll be the first to admit that here in the United
    States, native Indians and Blacks have felt an inordinate amount
    of pain and suffering.
    
    You say ancient wrongs should be left in the past?  I disagree
    entirely.  Should the Jews forget the holocaust?  Should Armenians
    forget the Turkish genocide?  Should Blacks in LA forget Rodney
    King's farcical trial?  I for one will be the last to forget British
    colonialism in Ireland which continues to this day.
    
    Starting from where we are right now is fine if everybody is on
    an equal footing.  But such is not the case in Northern Ireland today.
    Unemployment is still greastest in the Catholic ghettos.  The MacBride
    principles are helping, but change is slow.
    
    I am however optimistic in Ireland's fate.  Having exceptional
    educational institutions, English-speaking educated workforce,
    pleasant environment, Ireland is in a good position as Europe
    begins unification.
    
    If she could manage to diffuse the tensions, and use the differing
    cultural backgrounds of her peoples to her advantage via tourism,
    business contacts, etc... things will improve greatly.
    
    As a parallel I see great potential in Israel and Palestine, two
    extremely educated nations who could forge ahead economically into
    the 21st century if they could manage to attain peace and trust.
    
    Here's hoping for the best.
                          
    /George 
    

    
    We are closer than you thought, by "ancient wrongs" I meant
    those long gone in the past ........ say over 100 years,but
    its quite arbitrary. I don&t think there much point in 
    bewailing the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the barbarian
    invasions, black slavery etc. ........ even the Irish famine or
    the Massacre of Wounded Knee are not worth being bitter about.
    Not that we should FORGET, but we must strive for objective
    judgement of the events.
    
    However, grievances of more recent provenance, such as the ones
    you mention, should not just be forgotten, we must also strive
    to recompense those who were, and are, being wronged. HOwever,
    bitterness is not the way forward .... in my reading of history,
    I find it usually pollutes and sometimes destroys those harbouring 
    those feelings e.g. the German hurt over the Versailles treaty
    led directly to Hitler"s seizure of power.
    
    Reconciliation and understanding are just as important, maybe more
    so, as recompense for the injured and punishment of the guilty.
    
    Toby 

    
    Re' .61
    
    Arbitrary borders ..... hmmm, the border between the USA and
    Canada looks pretty arbitrary to me, unless a dead straight line 
    along the earths surface at exactly 49 degrees North (or whatever)
    can be described as a natural phenomenon.
     
    I agree with your second paragraph, though, however we probably
    disagree violently about the means justified to reach the desired
    end.

    Re: .61
    
    This is definitely off topic but it is related, if you can see the
    parallel.
    
    Don't ever believe that the Sur�t� de Qu�bec (SQ), the Quebec
    Provincial Police who raided the Mohawk blockade, acts with an even
    hand.  They were the personal goon squad of one of the most repressive
    Provincial Premiers (Maurice Duplessis of Quebec) in Canada's history.
    It was quite common for drivers to keep a few dollars with their
    driver's licence to ensure a speedy resolution with an SQ patrol car.
    They clubbed members of a peaceful demonstration in 1964 and sent 100
    people to the hospital.  Since then that has been referred to as The
    Day of the Nightsticks.  
    
    If the CF (Canadian Forces, the Army in this case) had not been called
    in at Oka, it is certain that the SQ would have run rampant through the
    reserve at there and at Ch�teauguay.  As it turned out, after the Army
    set-up their barricades to contain the situation, the SQ returned in
    riot gear and terrorized motorists on one of the blocked bridges.
    
    When some of the Mohawk elderly and children left the beseiged reserve
    in a motorcade to apparent safety, they had to run a gauntlet of
    rock-throwing whites (a number of the elderly and children were
    injured).  The SQ were supposed to be in charge of ensuring the safety
    of the motorcade but they stood idly by, as seen on television.
    
    The Mohawks have insisted that they be allowed to police their reserves
    and not the SQ.  The SQ are a vengeful bunch.
    
    Does any of this sound familiar?
    
    
    Pat

    
    re .64
    
     The US/Canadian border was the result of MUTUAL AGREEMENT between
    popularly elected and accepted governments.
    
     The border of northern Ireland was the result of coercion by Britain,
    under threat of war, during a time of severe strife in Ireland.  The
    ONLY POSSIBLE consequence of that coercion ultimately was violence.
    
    

    1776-1789, 1812-1814, 1865 were periods of armed aggression between the
    US and British North America, and one of the reasons why Canada became
    a nation in 1867.  The borders around the Great Lakes, the Maritime
    provinces and Quebec which divided the US from more land were
    established by battles won or lost during the aforementioned years and
    by subsequent treaties.  The only thing mutual about the agreements was
    the realization on both sides that they could blow each other out of
    the water (the burning of Washington, the capture of Fort Tichonderoga,
    the capture of Detroit, etc).  Once forts and fortifications were built
    after these wars, a period of peace did prevail and the remainder of
    the border to the west was settled relatively peacefully (49th
    parallel), except for "54-40 or Fight" which still raises an old
    dispute to this day.
    
    There was always a threat of war with the US, or a result of one, that
    set the borders between Canada and the US.  Coercion also played a role
    with the Fenian Raids in the 1860's and the Alaska Panhandle dispute
    ("54-40 or Fight").
    
    Some people in this country still feel that if Canada took a strong
    stand against the US incursions in our markets, culture, etc. that it
    would only be a matter of time before "American interests" prevailed
    and overt/covert "operations" would occur again.
    
    This is not Ireland/NI/Britain but there are similarities that should
    be understood before making erroneous comparisons with Canada/US.
    
    Pat

    
    
    .65 Pat  Thank you.
    
    
    The hatered of Native Americans contiues.  I don't understand the logic
    that would lead those to continue doing so.  
    
    Gary

    .68 Gary
    
    After watching the movie "Black Robe", one can see the seeds of the
    hatred that exists today were sown by the early explorers/Jesuits.
    
    See the movie.
    
    Pat

    
    Re: .66
    
    Now that the Irish and British governments have signed the Anglo-Irish
    Agreement in which the Irish Republic accepts the staus of Northern
    Ireland until a majority of its inhabitants decides otherwise, it
    could certainly be argued that the Border is now MUTUALLY AGREED
    between the Irish and British governments. Further, both countries
    are party to several European treaties in which the presence of 
    the border is implicitly accepted.
    
    Of course, you can still stick your head in the sand and pretend
    this treaty does not exist (for some people the clock stopped in
    1921 .....).
    
    Toby

    >Of course, you can still stick your head in the sand and pretend
    >this treaty does not exist (for some people the clock stopped in
    >1921 .....).
    
    Or you could stick yer head in the sand and pretend like many others
    that there is no problem in Northern Ireland.

    
     Aye George...revoltin' development ain't it.
    
    

    
    Re: .71
    
    Interesting quote from Fr Denis Faul on yesterday's Irish Times,
    with reference to Coalisland:
    
    "Opening fire is completely inexcusable but the Provos set up the
     trap and they are totally to blame .... I condemn the reckless
     behaviour of those people who went out to provoke the soldiers
     and to deliberately bring about a situation to bring the Paras
     back into Coalisland". 
    
    I may not have been to Coalisland, but Fr Faul certainly has.
    Any volunteers to be Para-fodder on behalf of the Provos?
    Here's your chance to be an Irish Republican hero, another 
    Jimmy Sands! Maybe a volley at the funeral, a tricolour over the
    coffin, a grieving Gerry Adams among the mourners. Be a
    posthumous Grand Marshal at a US St Patrick's day parade!
    
    Roll up while the opportunity lasts!
    
    Toby
    
    

    
     Jimmy Sands?  Any relation to Bobby?
    
    

    re: .74
    
     <Jimmy Sands?  Any relation to Bobby?
    
    
    Welcome to "Toby's World" Frank. A *bizarre* place where Irish seeking to
    throw off the yoke of 19th century British imperialism can do no right - 
    and Britain's army of colonial occupation can do no wrong. 
    
    The English government can commit atrocity after atrocity in Ireland,
    yet the Irish better not do anything, even though it's there own
    country because, as Toby likes to say, two wrongs don't make a right.
    
    Toby's way of seeing things is simple: Better not do anything, just look 
    the other way and pretend there isn't a foreign army occupying your 
    country, killing your fellow countrymen at lesiure and for sport. 
    
    Just sit there and rationalize that the Irish people being killed brought 
    it on themselves. Yeah, that's the ticket: the victims brought it on 
    themselves. 
    
    
    Despite Toby's blind-eye and head stuck firmly where it doesn't see the
    light of day approach to British homicidal madness in his own country,  
    ask someone of Toby's ilk if he's ever read any of the following,
    and the silence will be deafening:
    
1.  Ill-treatment.
          United Kingdom - Northern Ireland:  Recent Cases of Alleged
          Ill-treatment (AI Index: EUR 45/13/88)
    
          Allegations of Ill-treatment in Northern Ireland (in "Concerns in
          Western Europe"), June 1988 - February 1989, AI Index: EUR 03/01/89)
     
 2.  Fair trial
          United Kingdom - Northern Ireland: Killings by Security Forces
          and "Supergrass" Trials (AI Index: EUR 45/08/88)
    
          United Kingdom - Alleged Forced Admissions During Incommunicado
          Detention (AI Index: EUR 45/01/88)
    
          United Kingdom - Alleged Forced Admissions During Incommunicado
          Detention  Update (AI Index: EUR 45/01/89)
    
          People Convicted for Bombings in Guildford and Woolwich in 1975
          (in "Concerns in Western Europe", June 1988 - February 1989,
          AI Index: EUR 03/01/89)
    
          United Kingdom - Appeal Hearing of Six Men Convicted of Bombings
          in Birmingham (AI Index: EUR 45/14/88)
    
          United Kingdom - Update on the Case of the Six Men Convicted of
          Bombings in Birmingham (AI Index: EUR 45/01/90)
      
 3. Arrests and detentions on national security grounds
          United Kingdom - Amnesty International Challenges National
          Security Detention Procedures, Investigates Possible Prisoners
          of Conscience (AI Index: EUR 45/02/91)
    
 4. Killings
          United Kingdom - Killings by Security Forces in Northern Ireland:
          Update (AI Index: EUR 45/02/90)
    
          United Kingdom - Investigating Lethal Shootings:  The Gibralter
          Inquest (AI Index: EUR 45/02/89)
    
    
    Of course, judging by his previous note, getting him to even recognize the
    first name of the late (sic) *Robert* Sands (M.P.) would be a step
    forward.        

    
    I applaud all of Amnesty's reports, but I deplore the fact that
    Mr Drotter would use these to justify a campaign of terror that
    only exacerbates the situation in my country.
    
    That is really what you mean, Mr Drotter, isnt't it? You are less
    interested in these cases than in using them to drum up support
    for an amoral elite of self-styled "Repubicans" who apparently
    on bent on thrusting "feedom" (as defined by them) on us, whether 
    we like it or not.
    
    I have yet to hear Mr. Drotter condemn an IRA killing, or decry
    the punishment beatings and shootings (over 1000 per year) that are 
    handed out to teenagers that do not follow the IRA "line".
    
    Until you tell us where YOU stand Mr. Drotter you are only blowing
    hot air. You have the nerve to use the Birmingham Six as a 
    justification when the IRA (who actually murdered the 20 people)
    were content to let them rot in gaol when it was to their 
    advantage! 
    
    And, by the way, these men are now free, no thanks to the IRA
    but to the hundreds of people who peacefully protested the 
    injustice, and stuck at it year after year. Without Armalites,
    without Semtex, and no support from Colonel Ghaddafi. This is the 
    way the other injustices in Northern Ireland (which I know are 
    there) can be solved.
    
    Mr Drotter I have little time for IRA sympathizers who hide behind
    innocent victims, when the biggest killer of innocent people
    has been the IRA itself.
    
    My reference to "Jimmy Sands" was a bitter comment on the instant
    celebrity status conferred by the international media on the IRA, and
    the quick oblivion that follows. It is based on an authentic piece of
    Belfast graffiti "We never will forget you, Jimmy Sands" an ironic
    comment on Bobby Sands.
    
    As for where I stand, I believe in an end to injustice in this country,
    North and South, and a return to decent living for ordinary people.
    I strongly believe that this be accomplished by peaceful means
    because I can pragmatically see that the evils brought by violence 
    are worse than the injustices we are trying to end. No doubt the
    first sentence is "apple pie" and Mr Drotter can agree. But does
    he agree with the second? And if not, will he come out and say so?
    
    Toby

    re: .76
    
        Predictable West Brit rubbish.
    
        I was only partly right: indeed there is the "deafening silence" of
        a shoneen who hasn't read any of this literature by Amnesty
        International.
    
        But then there is the other side of the coin I should have expected:
        the casting of aspersions, the slanderous accusations of being a
        "terrorist supporter", the libelous statements that I use Amnesty's 
        reports to "to justify a campaign of terror". This is a tactic 
        exclusively employed by Brits when anyone brings up their 
        institutionalized terrorism in Ireland.
    
        Nice going Toby, they say imitation is the sincerest form flattery.
        And God knows you've proved your Brit imitation enough around here.
      
           You can try to jam all the words you want down my throat, or
        twist and deliberately mis-interpret my statements all you want, 
        but it still doesn't change the facts:
    
        You've never stayed in the Bogside or West Belfast for any length
        oftime to see what the British are doing to Irish Nationalists
    
        You've never read any of the articles by Amnesty International,
        (which you *gallantly* applaud)
    
        Similar to when a liar is confronted with the truth,  or when Brits
        are challenged about their presence in NI, you're backpeddling
        like crazy by making borderline libelous accusations in your note.
      
        I've made my position very clear on my disdain for all parties
        involved in violence and bloodshed and and do not have to justify 
        for you, as part of your campaign to evade answering the questions 
        raised in my note about your duplicitous representation as an 
        "Irishman.".
    
        And BTW, are you a member of Amnesty International? I am. I became
        a member ONLY after having travelled to NI, and after seeing the
        British institutionalized terrorism practiced on the Irish Nationalists
        there.
    
        As far as for wanting to see an end to injustice "North" and South,
        (or as far as being Irish goes, too, I suppose)  you're an imposter, 
        a fraud.

    
    You still have not answered my question on where you stand regarding 
    IRA terror tactics. Quit stalling: Where do you stand?
    
    I suggest you stop your poisonous tirades before you  disgrace
    Amnesty International and what they represent. I would expect an 
    Amnesty member to support freedom of speech and participate in 
    reasonable debate. You are somewhere on the outer reaches of 
    rationality.
    
    A spoonful of honey is worth more than a barrel of vinegar. You
    are all vinegar Mr Drotter, your motivation seems to me more hatred
    of Britain than love of Ireland or its people. I think you should
    rethink what you are doing, and whether the Irish people need your
    type of support. Bacause my views which you so readily insult are
    the views of the majority of Irishmen expressed through the ballot
    box. You are expressing hatred of Irish people because they refuse
    to be "Irish" the way you want them to be! Wake up.
    
    Toby
    

    
     Damn it, Toby, you're playing EXACTLY the same idiotic game as was
    played in other notes files as well as by the British government
    itself, condemning folks as 'supporters of terrorism' simply because 
    they rail about the bitter injustices of the UDA or British Army 
    against the Nationalists.  
    
     Is that your intent?  You seem to be doing your very best to convince
    folks of the truth of what Drotter says.                         
    
     

    
    Re: .79
    
    How, in all conscience, can I (or anyone) be a self-proclaimed
    supporter of Human Rights, but when a soldier is mutilated, 
    Protestant workers get blown up, Australian tourists get machine-
    gunned, or an English teenage girl gets killed, that same person
    apparently "passes by on the other side".
    
    That's where Drotter and others get up my nose .... I mean he
    and I should be on the same side! If he is sincere in applying his
    convictions to ALL violations of Human Rights, and just using 
    them as propaganda, then I would just like to hear him say so.
    
    Toby
    
    

    
    Small typo in last note
    
    "If he is sincere is applying his convictions to all Human Rights
    violations, and NOT just using them as propaganda,......
    
    If Mr Drotter is a sincere supporter of Sinn Fein, that is O.K.
    ... he has a free man's right to support anyone or anybody,
    as long as that organisation is legal and above board in its
    methods, at least ostensibly.
    
    There is a difference between (a) being a member of a non-partisan
    Human Rights organisation, and (b) using the output of that 
    organisation to defend a political position. Mr Drotter
    should tell us if he is (a) or (b). If he is (b), which I 
    suspect he is, then he should kindly tell us what exactly that
    political position is.
    
    By the way, there is nothing wrong with either (a) or (b),
    both are acceptable in a free society. However I always 
    thought Amnesty did not allow its members to get involved
    in countries where they had a partisan position.
    Perhaps Mr Drotter can enlighten us. There should be no need for 
    him to be defensive while telling us where he stands. 
    
    Toby

   I contacted representative Dick Swett about the British Intelligence
   agencies stealing U.S. corporate technology, and spying on U.S. citizens.

   The Judiciary hearing was held on April 29th.  The congressional
   research  service (The Library of Congress), retrieved the background
   articles on the April 1992 Economic and Commercial Law Subcommittee
   hearing on foreign espionage in U.S. companies.  I have copies of
   this background information, and have applied for a transcript of the
   actual hearing (to be published for the public at the end of this month).

   Here are some of the statements from the background articles:

   "NSA officials suspect British intelligence of monitoring the
    overseas phone calls of American firms."

   "The CIA is moving cautiously because many of the foreign
    intelligence services "against whom you're going to need the most
    protection tend to be its closest friends," says former CIA official
    George Carver."

   At the hearing, CIA Directore William Gates commented:

   "Some countries with which the United States has had good relations
    may adopt a "two-track approach" of cooperating at the level of
    diplomacy while engaging in adversarial intelligence collection,"
                                                                       

    I'll be following up this information with letters to my congressional
    reps.  I specifically will ask why no British diplomats have been
    expelled from the U.S.  In these difficult economic times, it seems
    to be quite an affront to have the British government actively engaged
    in economic espionage against my country.
   
                         Mark Holohan

    re .82
    
    �I'll be following up this information with letters to my congressional
    �reps.  I specifically will ask why no British diplomats have been
    �expelled from the U.S.  In these difficult economic times, it seems
    �to be quite an affront to have the British government actively engaged
    �in economic espionage against my country.
    
    Hardly a constructive approach is it? After all, what British Intelligence
    is doing in the US is no different to what US intelligence is doing in
    the UK, or what both are doing in France, Germany, Japan etc. Or what
    those nations are doing in the US UK etc...
    
    It is in the nature of intelligence organisations that they spy on
    everyone, enemy and ally alike. To think otherwise is naive (sp?).
    
    Clive
    
    

    Who do you write to regarding the role of your CIA in covert operations all
    over the world including, but not limited to, coup d'etat's (Britain's
    Labour government of the late 70's amongst them), murder, placement of 
    dictators, support/training of their death squads, international arms and 
    drug smuggling, economic terrorism and most likely involvement in the
    assinations of JFK, RFK, & MLK.
    
    Bring on the dancing saints!!!

    RE   .83
    
    
       So you are saying it is acceptable for governments to conduct
    industrial espionage.  If you truely believe that then there really is 
    something wrong somewhere.  
    
      If one does not hold it's government responsible for it's actions then
    real trouble is on the way.
    
      Every country has its share of covert operations and not to admit it
    would be naive.  But to sit by and accept covert industrial espionage
    by a government is pure stupidity, no matter which country.  So if the
    U.S. government is proven to be conducting covert industrial esponiage
    in the U.K. take actions to have us removed as quickly as possible.  It
    is your duty as is ours to have representatives of the U.K. removed if
    found to be conducting industrial esponiage.  
    
     Mark please send me copies of what you have.  I will write my share of
    letters too.
    
    paddy

    re .85
    
    The problem is that it isn't generally governments who conduct epsionage.
    And then people who run/work for intelligence organisations don't
    really give a stuff about what their government wants them to do. They
    are only interested in their own perception of what constitutes the
    great god National Security. That's the fundamental problem with all
    intelligence services, they spy on everyone, and in spite of what
    governments like to think or say, they aren't that well controlled.
    
    If governments get too heavy handed or restrictive towards the
    intelligence services, then aforementioned services have been known to
    take action to rectify the situation.
    
    And attempting to disband these organisations only drives them
    underground.
    
    If you catch these super-patriots conducting espionage of any form,
    then sure, deport them or lock them up for a while. Ask your senator to
    ensure that protests are lodged, but don't reduce things to the petty
    tit-for-tat expulsions of diplomats. After all, the poor sods in
    Westminster have about as much REAL control over MI5/MI6 as the Senate
    et al have over the CIA, ie only as much as the organisation will
    allow. Getting the US govt to expell a few British diplomats wont stop
    covert activities.
    
    Treat intelligence services like any other natural hazard like floods,
    earthquakes, etc. You can't stop them, but you can take measures to
    minimise their impact on you. Just don't get paranoid about it.
    
    Clive  

    
    Clive,
    
       There it is in a nutshell....  The intelligence communities have
    become too powerful and independent for our own good.  If they can't be
    collared then they should be controlled and answerable for their
    actions.  If that is not possible they should be dismantled quickly so
    as not to be able to go underground.  I believe the FBI along with the
    CIA should be dismantled and a replacement found.  The replacement
    because I believe we need an intelligence community for self
    preservation.  Not for the destruction or manlipulation of other
    countries as so well put by 'M' a few replys ago.
    
      I also believe the UK has the same problem with their intelligence
    communities.  They have become self serving with their own agenda. And
    if they can't find the right dirt they will create it then find it. 
    
      I think most countries have this problem and if the individual
    citizens(subjects) don't raise holy hell then they have no room to
    disagree with policy.  By that I mean,  if you don't do something then
    you can't bitch about the current situation.  I have learned most
    people just sit on their ass' and bitch about stuff without ever
    raising a finger to stop it.  IMO they are a waste and not to be
    listened to.  Just a bag of hot air....
    
    paddy

    Paddy,
    
    I agree whole-heartedly. As someone who has encountered representatives
    of these shadowy organisations in the course of looking for jobs I have
    raised hell.  The plus point is that I will never work for the
    military, security forces, etc...
    
    My objection was not with raising the issue as, like you, I feel too
    many people just sit and whinge. My only objection was with the
    expulsion of diplomats which I didn't feel to be constructive.
    
    I agree with your statement regarding the UK having the same problem.
    That was one of the reasons why I have written to my MP asking for the
    activities of the British Intelligence organisations in Ireland (both N
    and S) to be made public. I don't hold out much hope, but if you don't
    ask you won't know.
    
    Clive
    
    PS If you do catch any British Intelligence personnel spying in the US,
       lock them up and cross charge HMG. Teach them to break the 11th
       commandment :-) 

  re. .83

"Hardly a constructive approach is it? After all, what British Intelligence
    is doing in the US is no different to what US intelligence is doing in
    the UK,"
 
 If it helps to stop the British from doing it, then it will have been
 constructive.  If I sit on my hands and do nothing about it, then I've no
 right to complain.  The British government must bear the responsibility for
 the actions of its intelligence agencies.  
 
 From the background info:
"Gates(CIA) and Sessions (NSA), said the CIA and FBI were working closely 
 together against economic espionage.  They emphasized that neither agency
 conducted intelligence against foreign companies."

 Note the keyword above is companies, not countries.  There is a big difference.

"U.S. industry and government may have lost billions of dollars through the
theft of trade secrets and other proprietary information by foreign government
and business interests," Committe Chairman Jack Brooks, D-Texas, said."

 I wonder how many American jobs that translates into?

                     Mark
  

    No where near as many jobs as your own corporations have purposely
    exported to Mexico, Korea and Taiwan etc., in the great search for 
    ever cheaper labour. 
    
    All with the government's blessing.
    
    And if Bush gets his single US/Canada/Mexico market plan (whatever the 
    official name is?), you'll see a lot more jobs disappear south of the 
    border.