Conference tallis::celt

    The U.K. laws permitting abortion (up to 24 weeks I think) exclude
    Northern Ireland, although the Labour Party have stated their wish to
    extend the law to Northern Ireland if they win the upcoming UK
    election.
    
    

    On a panel discussion show on RTE, the republics national TV station,
    Father Denis Fall, famous civil rights agitator from the North was the 
    lone voice unambigously and unconditionally against abortion.
    
    The other three were politicians with varying degrees of opinion on the
    subject, ranging from full information to be available for referral to 
    foreign abortion clinics (currently illegal) to abortion in the
    republic in cases of rape or where the mothers life is in danger.
    
    The program was noteworthy in that the priests insistance that
    abortion was always wrong and always evil and that women had no rights
    to decide were met with loud groans of dissent from the audience.
    
    His comparison of a pregnant woman leaving Ireland for an abortion to 
    a terrorist leaving Ireland to bomb people was almost shouted down in
    anger by the audience. He also expressed his dismay that a Labour govt.
    might introduce abortion into N.I by decree.
    
    Of course it remains to be seen if this apparent dissent will translate
    into votes at the ballot box.
    
    The Arch Bishop of Dublin also published a Lenten Pastoral letter 
    condemning abortion and calling the Constitutional Ban a "Shining
    Beacon" in the darkness of the modern world.
    This was in obvious contrast to recent remarks by the European MEP's
    that Ireland was in the Dark Ages......
    
    Meanwhile police from Ireland are to accompany the girl to Britain
    to obtain samples which will be analysed for DNA matching of the 
    biological father. The paper was careful not to say whether 
    an abortion would be carried out or not............ 
    

    
    While the U.K.'s abortion laws do not extend to N.I., abortion is
    de facto carried out in cases of danger to the mother's health.
    This is because of the liberal interpretation of the old U.K.
    abortion law where the "life" of the mother is equated to the
    "health" of the mother. 
    
    This may become the situation here if the Supreme Court interpret
    the constitutional amendment in that light. 
    
    This will most certainly provoke the wrath of the pro-amendment
    forces and the Church. When the Protestant bishops pointed out
    their support for the less restrictive situation during the
    1983 amendment, they were smeared as "abortionists", though they
    vainly stated their detestation of abortion on demand. Fr. Faul
    (whom I greatly admire in everything else except matters of 
    religion!) seems to want to end the liberal legal interpretation
    of abortion law in Northern Ireland also. The Bishop of Limerick
    sent out a blast about "Protestant beliefs" last Sunday.
    
    Are these the same people who told the New Ireland Forum that 
    in a United Ireland it would not be morally correct be deprive 
    Northern Protestants of the rights of conscience they now
    enjoy? Apparantly it is o.k. to refuse those rights to Southern 
    Protestants, southern agnostics any any catholic who felt it
    o.k. in his conscience to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds
    of a woman's health. 
    
    It all stinks of 1983 all over again. Last Friday a meeting of
    Women Against the Amendment in Dublin was broken up by men
    who waved pictures of foetuses and shouted abuse at the speakers.
    
    
    Toby 
    
    

    2 years ago, on a visit to the States, the news there was of attempts
    being made by fundamentalist opposers of abortion to bomb abortion
    clinics. THere were several sit-ins, protests and disturbances at
    these clinics.
    
    In view of the behaviour outlined by Toby in the .3, I could not imagine
    abortion being performed here because the safety of the performing
    surgeon could not be guaranteed. There is, here in Ireland, such a
    depth of feeling against any form of abortion by a large group of
    people to cause trouble to any potential effort to  set up here.
    
    While, logically , it would be correct to have such a facility, if the
    people agree in a referendum to it here in Ireland, the practical
    problems of protecting such a facility from damage or interference
    may make an overseas abortion more practical.
    
    If anyone says that they could be kept secret they don't know Ireland
    and how small and close knit it is.
    
    Nothing can be kept secret in Ireland.
    
    As I believed in 1983, so I believe now, that the constitutional ban
    was unnecessary, divisive,dangerous and unenforceable.
    

    
    re .4
    
     Well, in my opinion, those who would violently oppose abortion EVEN
    IN THE CASE OF RAPE are part of the lunatic fringe who should be
    behind bars anyway.  That goes for the clergy as well.
    
    Thanks
    

    I couldn't agree more but, like the attitude of Irish people to
    divorce, all we can hope for is that in ten years time, sufficient
    numbers of the ultra-conservatives will no longer be in this world
    and that sufficient numbers of new voters will be around to swing
    the balance in favour of some new way of running things. Change takes
    time.
    
    Until then I shudder to think what would happen to anyone even trying
    to perform abortions here. Having said that I wonder what would be 
    wrong in trying to encourage girls "in trouble" to keep their babies
    to full term and then putting them up for adoption at birth, without
    the pressure and social stigma attached to it at the present??  It
    seems many prefer abortions because the whole affair can be kept quiet
    and out of the public eye. 
    
    If the religious objectors to abortion care to examine the record they
    will find that there was a time, not so long ago, that being pregnant
    outside marriage was regarded as a big scandal. The unfortunate girl
    had to enter a convent as a laundry worker and had her baby in private.
    The baby was then put up for adoption and the girl was more or less
    forced to remain in the convent for the rest of her life!!
    
    Marriage to such girls was not encouraged by society and without
    support it was near-impossible for such women to survive outside.
    
    To cap it all when they died they were buried in an unmarked plot,
    reviled and then forgotten by society!!!It's any wonder that many women
    choose abortion in such circumstances.
    

    
    re .6
    
     Yes, I believe that any such stigmas about unmarried pregnancy should
    be fought with words of tolerance.  One might hope that instead of 
    condemnation, such a girl could be given the help and support that
    could enable her to carry the pregnancy to term and give the child up
    if she so desired.  Once again I feel forced to offer my opinion that
    those who would condemn such a girl don't deserve to have their
    opinions heard.  
    
     And the idea that even a pregnancy conceived in rape should be brought
    to term against the victim's wishes is pernicious in its extreme
    idealism.  I'm not much of a Catholic but I've always held the Church
    as an important part of my cultural identity and have kept her most
    important doctrines.  But if the Church here demands such a judgement
    on my part that it would have me condemn abortion even as the result 
    of criminal violence, I will take my leave, because my GOD demands
    something else of me.
    
    Thanks
    
    Frank
       

    
    Today I read in the paper that police raided a pub in Co. Kildare
    where a meeting was in progress, took away documents and are
    considering a court prosecution.
    
    An IRA cell? No, simply a meeting of an Anti-Amendment group.
    The documents were leaflets which contained addresses of abortion
    clinics in the U.K., which it is illegal to publish in Ireland.
    
    The pregnancy police are on the march .....
    
    Toby

    Which is why Ireland needs to get rid of that eighth amendment fast.
    It is now becoming dangerous and divisive....................
    

This is getting serious. When the police start to raid the pubs in Kildare. 
Its unheard of. Next they will  start taking names. And stopping people drinking

Did this raid occur before or after 12:00 midnight.

Mbr

    
    	"Abortion leaflets seized in raid"
    
    	by Padraig Yeates
    
    Gardai are to forward a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions
    on the organisers of a meeting in Naas, Co. Kildare, on Monday
    night which called for the repeal of the Eighth Amendment to the
    Constitution. Leaflets which contained telephone numbers of 
    abortion referral services were confiscated.
    
    The meeting in Phil Kennedy's pub in Main Street, Naas, was reported
    to have been attended by a small number of people, mainly women.
    Shortly after it ended, a garda sergeant called to the pub and said
    he was investigating a report that illegal leaflets were being
    distributed. He said a concerned citizen had brought a leaflet from
    the meeting to the garda station.
    
    The sergeant seized other copies of the leaflet and took the name of
    one of the organisers. Other participants refused to give their
    names.
    
    The leaflet, issued by the Dublin Abortion Information Group, carried
    details of a march planned by the Repeal the Amendment campaign in
    Dublin on Saturday. At the bottom were the phone numbers of abortion
    referral services in Dublin, Liverpool and London.
    
    					- Irish Times, 5/3/92
    

    
    I'm entering the latest on the Supreme Court's judgement in Topic 1004.
    
    Toby