Conference tallis::celt

        From the _Irish Emigrant_

- Dubliner Ruairi Mac Carthaigh failed in his appeal to the High Court
  to have his forthcoming trial for robbery and hijacking conducted in
  Irish, in front of an Irish-speaking jury.  Mac Carthaigh is charged
  with robbery and handling IR11,000 worth of stolen chocolates, and
  with hijacking a vehicle.  In delivering his judgement Justice O
  hAnluain said that a jury must be made up of a cross-section of the
  community and that this condition could not be met if all the jurors
  were Irish speakers.

As a friend of mine pointed out, Irish speakers make up an excellent
cross-section of the community. The judge's prejudice is hard to
understand here. Is the assumption that an Irish-speaking jury would
let Mac Carthaigh off because he speaks Irish? Would an English-speaking
jury let him off because he speaks English? Or is the judge really so
ignorant as to think that all Irish-speakers are fishermen and farmers
living in rural poverty on the west coast (and is he also impugning the
fairness of such people)?

>ignorant as to think that all Irish-speakers are fishermen and farmers
>living in rural poverty on the west coast (and is he also impugning the
>fairness of such people)?

    Maybe Judge O'Hanlon just has it in for chocolate thieves. :v)
    This will be a good conservation topic in my Irish class. You wouldn't
    know O'Hanlons address would you Brendan?  Maybe some of my peers
    will pen a chocolate-stained letter for his excellence to read... 
    
    Bui/ochas,
    George
    

    
    Well the judge has a point...
    
    A jury has to be a cross-section of the community...You Can't just go
    and pick jury memebers to suit your own minority status (thats no
    reflection on Irish speakers..who hold the candle for REAL Irish
    culture alive)
                                             
    Mick
    

    Yes Indeedy..... the judge has a point
    
    Here's a petty thief trying to pull one over on the legal system . He
    knows that he has a good chance of delaying things long term while the
    court tries to get an irish speaking jury , he knows that he has a good
    chance that the Garda can't conduct himself in irish so may be
    persuaded to drop charges . He went for the big gamble and lost
    ....Yeehah..good enough for him !!
    
    Don't try and turn this into an anti-irish anti-culture  thing when all
    it is is a common sense ruling by a judge that prevents the courtsfrom
    being hoodwinked .
    
    Feargal. 

    "A jury has to be a cross-section of the community.."
said Mick. I agree. As my friend pointed out, Irish speakers
ARE a cross-section of the community. What group is left out?
Perhaps you would yourself be surprised, Mick, to learn who
speaks Irish.

As for delaying things long-term, how does this help the alleged
criminal? The man remains in jail pending his trial. In any case,
why would this delay things? Irish speakers aren't particularly
thin on the ground in Ireland. Lastly, as for the Garda being unable 
to conduct himself in Irish, I've never met a since one who can't,
but on the offchance that there is one, interpreters are available.

How would it harm justice to conduct this trial in Irish?

                  <<< TALLIS::S2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CELT.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< Celt Notefile >-
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Note 1001.5           Discrimination against Irish speakers               5 of 5
XSTACY::BDALTON                                      14 lines  27-SEP-1994 06:08
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As for delaying things long-term, how does this help the alleged
criminal? The man remains in jail pending his trial.
	
	>>>> he would be bailed .... it was only a petty theft 

In any case, why would this delay things? Irish speakers aren't particularly
thin on the ground in Ireland. 
	
	>>>>> but in Dublin ?? 

Lastly, as for the Garda being unable to conduct himself in Irish, I've 
never met a since one who can't, but on the off chance that there is one, 
interpreters are available.

	>>>>> we're obviously talking about two different police
	      forces here :-)) as they go through Templemore they have 
	      their leaving cert polished up for just this eventuality 
	      as it is still a citizens right to have his case heard in 
	      irish. But this eventuality rarely happens (witness the 
	      exposure this case is getting) so the garda's command of 
	      the language wanes . And as for an interpreter.... give me 
	      a break..that would do the copper's career a whole lot of
	      good .

How would it harm justice to conduct this trial in Irish? 

	>>>>> That is not the point . The point here is that a chancer
	      tried to pull a fast one and failed . Don't turn this into 
	      an anti irish language thing when it isn't . We are all
	      very proud of our culture and heritage AND language and this 
	      little episode does nothing to take that away . I for one 
	      admire the judge for seeing this as a stunt and being brave
	      enough to make the ruling knowing that he would have the wrath
	      of many to face .
 
F.

    I think it's obvious that the alleged tried to pull a fast one.
    I agree with you on that. But I think the judge is a little
    presumptuous in stating one cannot find an Irish-speaking "cross
    section of the community".
    
    I know teachers in Cork, fisherman in Galway, farmers in Donegal,
    priests in Mayo, linguists in Dublin, who all speak Irish fluently.
    Is that not a cross-section?
    
    Maybe what the judge meant to say is that it may not be practical
    from a logistic standpoint to easily locate such a jury. Still doesn't
    sit well with me though.
                            
    /g

    
    True..True..one could get an interpter. Also fair to say if someone in
    a local Gaelteacht area gets in trouble with the law and is a native
    Irish speaker that they would have to have a trial through their native
    language. But I would leave this in the hands of the judge..His
    judgement seems to me in plain words that this particular individual is
    wasting the courts time...
                   
    Can certainly accept that Irish is spoken by many people but NOT in
    everyday life (gaeltacht areas withstanding)...Was does annoy me is the
    arty pressure groups that are formed around folk like our ART minister who
    think things like an Irish TV station is "vital" for Ireland. What a
    waste of time and money especially in light of the social issues we
    need addressed....
    
    Then again we have a "labour" Minster for art!
    
    Mick  
    
    
    

    
    This note poses a thought.   Are any trials in the US conducted in a 
    language other than English?  For example we know a huge number of 
    Americans have Spanish as their primary language.  If one of them were
    to demand a trial in Spanish, I wonder what the result would be here.
    
    
    /jen

    >>This note poses a thought.   Are any trials in the US conducted in a 
    >>language other than English?   
    
    In Canada, trials may be, and are, conducted in English, French, Cree,
    Slave (pronounced slave-ee), Dene, Inuit (but not at the same time,
    mind), etc. (but I'm not sure how many people speak "etc.").
    
    However, in the higher courts (Supreme Courts of the provinces and the
    Supreme Court of Canada) the proceedings are usually conducted in
    English or French.
    
    Luke Warmwater

    A 1967 Act of Parliament allows for the provision of official Welsh
    translators. This gives the Welsh language equal rights in a courtroom,
    but the selection of Jurors is still random. 
    
    The percentage of Welsh speaking jurors will depend on where you are.
    In Cardiff you'll be lucky with 5%, whilst in Caernarfon Crown court you'll
    get 70%. 
    
    Huw.

    
    
    ...as a matter of interest..is there stats available for the % of
    people who speak Welsh.? Is it taught/mandatory in Schools
    
    Mick

    As an average of the whole of the population of Wales, 20% are
    Welsh speakers.
    
    In the 1991 Census, they counted  1/2 a million fluent speakers. But
    that doesn't include people like me, who now live elsewhere. Current
    estimations for fluent expats are around the 100,000 to 200,000 mark.
    
    That said, the media have made their own surveys, and found that about 
    1.5 million have some degree of comprehension, but don't count
    themselves fluent. However, they could for instance understand a soap opera!
    
    Welsh is taught in most schools, but some in more anglicised areas
    have complained about the compulsory nature of Welsh education.  
    In terms of pure statistics, Welsh is on the increase, but the number
    of actual families using it as their first language continues to
    decline.
    
    Huw.
    

Poor Ruairi Mac Carthaigh. Found guilty of being in possession of 
the Irish language, and of trying to trick his fellow-Irishmen by 
using it.

It's interesting, isn't it, to see that most people view this
as a trick and many judge Mac Carthaigh guilty, with the argument
"well, if he's innocent, why did he try pulling a fast one?".
Here are a few comments we've already seen on this subject:

    Here's a petty thief trying to pull one over on the legal system .

    It is a common sense ruling by a judge that prevents the courts from
    being hoodwinked .

    The point here is that a chancer tried to pull a fast one and failed .

    I for one admire the judge for seeing this as a stunt

    I think it's obvious that the alleged tried to pull a fast one.

In fact, all he did was to ask for the court to uphold his
constitutionally-guaranteed right to be tried in Irish, his
mother tongue. It seems many people when faced with this "trick" 
forget that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. We give 
the benefit of the doubt to people accused of crimes because we 
realise the inherent repugnance in wrongfully imprisoning people -
taking away their liberty and in a very real sense destroying their
lives for crimes they didn't commit. This is why we think it right 
for the law to require the prosecution to establish the guilt of a
person who is accused of a crime, rather than requiring the accused
to establish their innocence. We recognise that this is a _trial_
for the accused, and we ensure that they are given the means to
defend themselves from accusation so that we can be satisfied that
those found guilty of a crime really _are_ guilty. If the defendant
can better defend himself in Irish then surely, in the interests of
serving justice, we should allow him his constitutionally-guaranteed
right to a trial in Irish. That is why our constitution provides for
it. If an Inuit can be tried in Inuit in Canada, surely an Irishman 
can be tried in Irish in Ireland?



When I asked "How would it harm justice to conduct this trial in Irish?", 
Feargal said "That's not the point". Feargal has made precisely my point. 
By seeking to portray this as a trick, Feargal shows why so many Irish-
speakers in Ireland have a real distrust of the law. I don't mean to 
pick on you, Feargal. You've just articulated in these notes what many 
(most) people in Ireland feel on this issue; but it's linked to the 
general issue of how minority rights are defended in Ireland. 
Democracy is about establishing the rights of the majority through 
their enfranchisement. In itself, it says nothing about protecting 
minority rights. Many mature societies try to protect minority rights 
by enshrining them in a written constitution or by other legislation. 
Thus the majority itself takes a conscious, long-term decision to 
protect minorities through its lawmaking bodies. In the short-term, 
however, many people forget the principles established in law, because 
(as seems to be the case here) it is at variance with their own daily 
rhythm. Thus Feargal is absolutely fluent in English, and doesn't see 
why Ruairi shouldn't put his case in English. Mick reckons that nobody
speaks Irish in everyday life (gaeltacht areas notwithstanding), 
presumably on the basis that he and his aquaintances don't. 

Put the boot on the other foot, gentle reader. Imagine how you 
would feel if you were accused of a crime in the Gaeltacht and your 
case was held in Irish, with an interpreter translating your English 
into Irish if neccessary. You would feel hard done by unless you 
happen to be equally as fluent in Irish as you are in English. Since 
it is your liberty that would be at stake (your accusers won't
go to jail if you're found innocent), you would probably insist 
on your constitutional right to a trial in English. If you didn't get 
it, you would probably move for a mistrial. You would be right to do 
so, and your fellow-citizens in the Galltacht would be appalled at 
the cavalier trampling of your rights. So would I, as I am appalled 
at the dismissal of Ruairi Mac Carthaigh's rights to a trial in Irish, 
and the assumption by many that he's as guilty as hell for having 
tried to avail of them.


How would it harm justice to conduct this trial in Irish?

    Re: .-1                           
    
    I agree with you.  And my statement that the accused tried to
    pull a fast one may not be accurate. I don't know the particulars
    of the case.
    
    It's interesting.  We have Irish on the passport, Irish on store
    fronts with nice gaelic script, an increasing number of Irish ads
    on television, and government titles in Irish.
    It's quaint isn't it?  Good for the tourists too. And Irish as an
    official language of the country.  But my God, we can't have
    Irish spoken in court.  What would the queen think?  :v) :v) :v)
    
      /
    Slan,
    g

    >.14  good note
    
    

    re .14
    
    Yes good note and good points raised . In my two replies (.4 and .6)
    I argued that this should not be turned into an anti Irish language
    thing and should instead be seen at face value as a common sense
    judgement against an individual who , in my opinion (maybe I should
    have included this qualifier more often before now), was trying to 
    obstruct justice more than advance it. As a by the way,  I would never 
    support removing this right nor would I support any legislature which
    negatively impacted our culture or language. 
    
    Unfortunately this has been turned into an anti-Irish language issue
    and as .14 illustrates very eloquently it is not right to deny this man
    his constitutional right to have his case heard in Irish .
    
    I see this as an attempted con , other's see it as a man's right's denied .
    
    Maybe we should agree to differ . 
    
    F.

At a seminar held in Dublin this week by the Irish Council of the
European Movement and the European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages,
the SDLP's Patsy McGlone said that the British government should
face up to its Gaelic Language responsibilities and eliminate
blatant, cultural and linguistic discrimination in NI.

The British government at UN and EU level had, according to
Mr. McGlone, been most forthcoming in its verbal dedication
to protect, encourage and promote minority identities and
cultures and to eliminate discrimination. Yet adherence to
these principals disappears as far as Irish is concerned.

In the 1991 census of NI, 142003 people said they had
a knowledge of Irish Gaelic (unfortunately, the census
didn't ask people to classify the depth of their
knowledge). In Scotland 69,979 people had a command of
our sister tongue, Scots Gaelic. Yet though lately the 
Scottish office has shown a willingness to support Gaelic
in Scotland, the NIO has been unwilling to support Gaelic
in NI. Expenditure figures for 1992-3 were: �12m in Scotland,
�1,276,000 in NI.

Mr McGlone said "In the field of education, the present system
fails to take account of Irish-medium education. The criteria
applied by the department before state-funding is provided
actively discourages an Irish-medium sector. The refusal to
fund Meanscoil Feirste [Belfast's only Irish-language secondary
school, funded by pupils' families] is ample testimony to that".

Almost 10 years after the Anglo-Irish agreement was signed,
it still remains illegal to erect street names in Irish.
"These facts and figures spell out one thing: discrimination
writ large".

    While I agree that the attitude of the British Govt in NI with regard
    to Irish may be not perfect, you'll have to go a long way to beat the
    anti-Breton stance of the French government (not to mention other
    minority languages like Occitan and Basque).
    
    What languages can cases be heard in in the USA ?
    
    O bydded yr hen iaith barhau...
    
    
    Dave
    

    America has quite a good record in funding foreign language
    instruction in public schools for foreign speaking students.
    The public school which I went to offered instruction in
    Spanish, French (for Haitians), Cambodian/Laotian, and now
    we're seeing Russian.
    
    Some of the more active ethnic minorities, most notably
    Jewish and Armenian for example, offer full foreign language
    schools - but these are mostly privately funded.
    
    True, the French are a special breed when it comes to language
    and "national identity". But that just makes matters worse on
    both ends. Something which the British should learn from. The
    most vocal anti-government (anti-French) people I've met have
    been the Bretons.
    
    And the language issue has been distorted. Many of the most
    important people of the Gaelic language revival have been and
    are Protestant. The language and nationalism issues should be
    seen as separate issues, even though the British don't see
    them as such...
    
    Slan,
    George
                    

Dave, ar gwir yo ganeoc'h (rydw i'n cydweld � chi).

The anti-Breton stance of the French government is
indeed cruel, and if you want to start a new note
on that topic, Dave, I've one or two things I could
write therein.

Since this note is about discrimination against
Gaelic-speakers, I suppose I'd better bore you
all with another example, to justify this reply:

Magherafelt council has refused councillor Patsy McGlone's 
request that the signs on the way into the town (which inform 
you that you are now in Magherafelt) should include the town's 
Gaelic name.

An Machaire F�olta means the "the sown plain"

    
    From yesterday's L�:
    
    T� foirmeacha eolais eisithe ag an �is�neacht Leasa Sh�isealaigh 
    sna S� Chontae in aon teanga d�ag - ach n�l an Ghaeilge ina measc.
    
    D'�isigh an �is�neacht na foirmeacha an tseachtain seo caite in
    Arabais, S�nis, Hiond�is, V�tneamis, Gujarati, Som�ilis agus go
    leor teangacha eile ach n�l leagan Gaeilge le f�il.
    
    M� � shin chuir Conradh na Gaeilge pic�ad ar an Fheidhmi�ch�n
    Tith�ochta i mB�al Feirste nuair a d'eisigh siad foirmeacha
    eolais as S�nis ach dhi�ltaigh siad foirmeacha a eisi�int
    as Gaeilge.
    
    From this week's IE:
    
 - Leaflets produced by the Social Security Agency in the North are now
  available in 11 different languages, including Vietnamese, Gujarati,
  Hindi and Somali.  The absence of Irish among the languages has come
  in for a good deal of criticism and appeals have been made for its
  inclusion.


   

    
    crazy..what excuse did they give???/

    According to L�, their excuse was:
    
    "gur �is�odh an bhileog chun cuidi� leo siud 
    nach bhfuil B�arla ar a dtoil acu"
    
    but according to Gear�id � Caireall�in, Uachtar�n Conradh na Gaeilge,
    "T� an �is�neacht ag eisi�int bileog mar seo sa Bhreatain Bheag
    sa teanga dh�chais ach n�l siad ag cur  in i�l nach bhfuil
    B�arla ag lucht labhartha na Breatnaise".
    
    So it seems that the leaflets are only for those who don't
    understand English, according to the Agency, but by
    publishing the leaflets in Welsh, the Agency *isn't*
    trying to imply that Welsh speakers can't understand English.
    
    I can't find any other excuse.
    

    Would it be possible to translate the quotations into either English, French
    or Swedish...for those of us interested but unable to read Gailic (Eire).
    
    Shaun.

Especially as Digital's Policies and Procedures 
specify that a translastion must be provided.

What would be nice is to break down the pareagraph
with the translation so that we can see how the english
co-relates to the celtic.

Thanks,
Simon

    Re. .-1, .-2,
    what was wrong with the English versions already given?
    

    The quotations are in Gailic (Eire) and it would be more advantageous
    to your point if you were to translate them into the common language
    used by Digital....ie. English.
    
    Shaun.

    He did translate them.

    Obviously my translation skills must come under question.
    
    Shaun.

>  The quotations are in Gailic (Eire) and it would be more advantageous
>  to your point if you were to translate them into the common language
>  used by Digital....ie. English.

  I thought the common language used by Digital, was American.

                   Mark

  >>I thought the common language used by Digital, was American.
    
    Yes, that really is common  ;^)