Conference tallis::celt

    You may have to renounce your US citizenship? I believe dual
    citizenship is permitted in Irish law... but what about USA?
    Gerry.

    
     While the US wouldn't recognize dual citizenship, there is nothing
    illegal about it.
     

    
    There are a few of us "Yanks" who have obtained Irish Passports based
    on the birthplace of our parents and grandparents. The US government
    has no problems with this process. If one of your parents is Irish born
    then you are already considered to be an Irish citizen and as such, you
    can obtain an Irish passport.If you want to obtain a passport
    based on your grandparents then you must first be registered in the
    birth records in Dublin. The approximate cost to be registered is ~$150.00
    and the passport itself (good for 10 years) is an addition ~60.00
    
    
    
    keVin
    

    Here's some other notes on the subject.  And if you correct the
    spelling of "citzenship" in the title of this note, people will find
    this one too.  ;-)
    
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   268  TALLIS::DARCY        16-SEP-1987    26  Irish Citizenship Update
   533    CPDW::DUNNIGAN     17-MAR-1989     7  IRISH CITIZENSHIP
   637  GIAMEM::FOLEY        25-AUG-1989     1  IRISH CITIZENSHIP

    I am an American born citizen as is my father. However, my father has
    a dual citizenship (his grandparents were born in Ireland). Does this 
    allow me to get dual citizenship? Also, my wifes father was born in
    Ireland can we pass on citizenship to our children?
    
    Thanks Andy... 

    
    RE: 5 
    
    	Andy,
    
    		Under the current status, Ireland considers your wife
    	an Irish citizen. Your children are entitled to Irish citizenship
    	if they apply. You are not eligible. 
    
    		Ireland only recognizes up to grandchildren of people
    	born in Ireland.
    
    		Previous to a few years back, great-grandchildren were
        eligible, but the law was changed.
    
    				Neil

    Unless you're a soccer star then Jack could probably work out some
    arrangement......                                    

    RE: 1.   From an American who aquired Irish citizenship.
    
    Eligiblility:
    
    One of your granparents have to been born in Ireland.
    You must collect all birth and marriage certs connection you to your 
    granparent.
    
    Advantages:
    
    - EC passprot, Travel around Europe more freely.  EC express landing
      line.
    - Can work in most if not all EC countries with minimum paper work.
      No work Visa required.
    - Owning a non US, neutral country passport.
    - Dual citizenship 
    
    Disadvantages  
    
    - Have to hand in your US passport (temporarily) to get your Irish one.
      A temporary loss of security.
    
    
    I used to travel around Europe with my US passport and the landing card
    regulations were a real pain.  With my Irish EC passport I flew through
    customs/immigrations.  However, I will add, if you are travel to 
    Britain, the customs officials are a lot nicer to you if you use your
    US passport.
    If you plan to travel in the Middle East you'll be a lot safer and
    welcomed as an Irishman!
    
    
    Cheers,
    Paul

    When Robbie and I moved back to Ireland (1976-79) the first thing I
    asked immigration officials at Shannon was:  "What do I do to get alien
    status -- the equivalent of the US Green Card."  They told me that if I
    was married to an Irish citizen, then I was an Irish citizen and that I
    didn't need to have alien status.  I never pursued the actual
    documentation of this status - though perhaps I should have now that I
    live in the states.  Does anyone have any information that either
    confirms or contradicts this information?
    
    Thanks - Rox

    RE: 9
    
    Not sure of the married citizenship law in Ireland.  I already had my 
    Irish passport when I married my wife, from Dublin.  I know in the US you 
    don't get instant citizenship by being married to an American.  What you 
    get isa resident alien card, which has to be renewed after the first year
    to make sure you weren't married for "convenence".  Then if you reside
    in the US for 3 (could be 5 years) you can then apply for US 
    citizenship.  
    I'm not sure how the Irish laws view Irish citizenship from being
    married to an Irish person.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul                                                     
    

    I've just sent off for my Irish citizenship to the the Consulate
    General of Ireland in San Francisco.  The fee for this has gone from
    $155, last year, to this year's $177.  They said the process would take
    approximately twelve months.  
    
    Many thanks to all who gave me input on this topic.
    
    Jim O'Shea

    RE: .8
    
    >You must collect all birth and marriage certs connection you to your 
    >granparent.
    
    In my case, the woman I talked with at the Dept. of Foreign Affairs in
    Dublin said I should include the death cert. for my Grandmother.
        
    >- Have to hand in your US passport (temporarily) to get your Irish one.
    >  A temporary loss of security.
    
    Who do you hand it in to and why?
    
    
    RE: .11
    
    >The fee for this has gone from $155, last year, to this year's $177. 
    >They said the process would take approximately twelve months.  
    
    This is just for the regitration of foreign birth, right?  Then it's
    another $50 for the passport.  Too bad it's going to take 12 months.  
    This means you may not get an "Irish" passport, but a "European
    Community" passport if it's after 1992.  Anybody know for sure?  How
    come 12 months, did they say?

    
    
    re: .12
    
    Yes, the 12 months is for the citizenship.  The passport is an
    additional fee.  
    
    Good point about the type of passport issued for '92.  I'll have to
    give the Consulate a call.
    

>            <<< Note 915.12 by TOPDOC::AHERN "Dennis the Menace" >>>

>    another $50 for the passport.  Too bad it's going to take 12 months.  
>    This means you may not get an "Irish" passport, but a "European
>    Community" passport if it's after 1992.  Anybody know for sure?  How
>    come 12 months, did they say?

Even Britain's been issuing burgundy Euro-passports for years. The
rest of the EC have been issuing them longer than that. The good news is
that the EC passports are printed in all the main EC languages. I think
all the EC passports across the community will have Irish language
translations on them.

Craig

    I had to renew my passport two years ago. It's hard to tell what it is
    now. On the cover it's got 'European Community' at the top and
    'Ireland' in the centre. It's one of the burgundy ones. It's got a
    large harp too, just like the old ones. Are there going to be *real*
    European Passports or just 'European Passports' issued in each country.
    
    Tony.

    I still don't understand why it should take 12 months for the consulate
    to register a foreign birth.  It only took my Mother 9 months.  ;-)
    

    
    	Dennis:
    
    	It WOULD have been 12 months if your mother was running on 
    
    	"Irish Time" 		:-)
    
    
    
             
    	keVin
    

    
    Re.15
    Tony, I got one of those passports as well, when I applied for it
    I was surprised as I wanted the traditional green ones, I was informed
    that these new passports were to be the new European passports and
    that Ireland had adopted it first.
    
    Ronan
    

    The old ones were a sickly green and were made of a heavy inflexible
    cardboard.They were also too big for most pockets.
    I like the new ones better.
    	Also I have nothing but praise for the people in the Irish Passport
    Office.They quickly got me a new passport when I lost my old one
    through the post.(It turned out that it was sent through my work
    address and got lost in my previous Bosses' desk when he was making a
    move)
    In stark contrast the U.S embassy staff who process VISA's think they
    are gods and don't help give a good impression of the States to Irish
    people who deal with them.Maybe its got something to do with all the 
    emigrants they have to deal with here.........
    		John.
    

    RE: .11
    
    >I've just sent off for my Irish citizenship to the the Consulate
    >General of Ireland in San Francisco.  The fee for this has gone from
    >$155, last year, to this year's $177.  They said the process would take
    >approximately twelve months.  
    
    I went in to the Consulate in Boston with my application on Friday. 
    They said it would only take four to six weeks, but the fee was now
    $179.  Oh, and they don't take personal checks.  I had to go home and
    get a money order at the bank.
    
    Another thing to remember is to bring a photocopy set of all your
    original documents; birth, marriage and death certificates as needed. 
    The consulate staff then verifies the copy against the original and
    stamps the copy as having been verified.  You keep the originals.
    

Dennis,

How did you manage to bring your death certificate to the consulate. I am 
slightly confused. 

MBR

    RE: .21
    
    >How did you manage to bring your death certificate to the consulate. I
    >am slightly confused. 
    
    It was my grandmother's death certificate.  They wanted that to be able
    to compare age at time of death with the year on the birth certificate. 
    The woman at the Office of Foreign Affairs in Dublin explained that
    they often had applicants with erroneous ancestors.  It's probably easy
    enough to find someone with the right name, but the dates don't match.
    

    RE: .22
    
    Can people who's grandmother(s) are still alive get in ? Do you need to
    bring them with you when you apply ? Are the embassies full of 
    grannies discussing the old country whilst waiting to testify that they
    are, indeed, alive ?
    
    The mind boggles ! :-)
    
    JH.

    Perhaps they need a life Certificate.
    

    RE: .23
    
    Yes.
    No.
    No.
    

    
    RE: .20
           
   >I went in to the Consulate in Boston with my application on Friday. 
   >They said it would only take four to six weeks, but the fee was now
   >$179. 
   
    There are several Consulates General of Ireland scattered across the
    U.S.: San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Boston.  San Francisco is
    responsible for citizenship applications for nine western states of
    which one is Colorado.  Therefore, I had to submit my request to their
    office. 
    
    I called and the Consulate General in Boston and asked if I could apply
    through their office; they said no way.  
    
    I called the Consulate General in San Francisco and asked them why
    Boston only takes four to six weeks and they take a full year.  They
    said that they were understaffed and could not keep up with their   
    workload as fast.  Boston only is responsible for a five-state area.
                                             

    RE: .20  update
    
    Well, my papers and money order were sent registered mail, received by
    the consulate in Boston on July 8th.  Today I received my foreign birth
    certificate in the mail.  Now I can apply for the passport.
    
    I realized after sending in the application for registration of foreign
    birth that I could have sent the passport application at the same time
    and it would have been all handled at once.  Oh well.
    

    My passport came in the mail today.  It's maroon rather than green, but
    it has a gold harp on the front.  It says European Community Ireland on
    it in English and Gaelic.
    
    Can't wait to use it.  :-)
    

    Its a funny old world....
    There are hundreds of thousands of Irish who would gladly give their 
    right hand for a U.S passport.
    I still have vivid memories when 2 friends of mine managed to get U.S
    passports because their mother had spent time in the states.
    Everyone in the village was jealous of them,at least they could get
    away from Ireland legitimately and make a fortune in "the new world".
    That was ten years ago when I was more na�ve....
    Now we have an American with an Irish passport.
    Do you have to give up any  of your U.S citizenship rights in order to 
    get an Irish passport??
    Can the U.S government kick you out because you have an Irish
    passport??
    Can you use both passports,U.S and Irish at the same time or do you 
    have to surrender one of them??
    Would it be breaking the law to  use one of them on the way in and the
    other on the way out?
    		Confused and curious of Galway.....
    
    

    RE: .29  by MACNAS::JDOOLEY 
    
    >Do you have to give up any  of your U.S citizenship rights in order to 
    >get an Irish passport??
    
    No.
    
    >Can the U.S government kick you out because you have an Irish
    >passport??
    
    No. I'm still an American citizen.
    
    >Can you use both passports,U.S and Irish at the same time or do you 
    >have to surrender one of them??
    
    Well, I wouldn't use both at the same time, but I wouldn't have to
    surrender one of them either.  If I were landing in any EC country I
    would use the one that says "European Community".  If I were returning
    to the states, I would use the U.S. one.  Either way I could go through
    the "express" line.  And if I were on a plane in Beirut and a bunch of
    people with automatic weapons came on board and asked which ones were
    Americans, I would have a choice of which passport to hold up.  ;-)
    
    >Would it be breaking the law to  use one of them on the way in and the
    >other on the way out?
    
    I don't see why it would, though U.S. Customs and Immigration may find
    it curious that there was nothing recent stamped in my U.S. passport
    showing where I had been overseas.
    

    John,
    
    >Do you have to give up any  of your U.S citizenship rights in order to 
    >get an Irish passport??
    No, however the U.S. govt doesn't recognize *any* dual citizenship.
    
    >Can the U.S government kick you out because you have an Irish
    >passport??
    No, since the U.S. does not recognize the Irish citizenship.
    
    >Can you use both passports,U.S and Irish at the same time or do you 
    >have to surrender one of them??
    I'm not sure about the rules of this.  However, I would not expect
    American State department assistance in difficulties if travelling
    on the Irish passport.
    
    >Would it be breaking the law to  use one of them on the way in and the
    >other on the way out?
    Don't know this one, but the visiting country's laws would be a factor
    in this.
    
         

    I hold dual citizenship in Canada, and therefore have two
    Passports....Irish and Canadian. I guess the difference between this
    and the people in the U.S. who hold two passports is that the Canadian
    Government recognizes dual citizenship, whereas the U.S. Government
    doesn't.
    
    Gerry

    There is a row going on here at the moment over the issue of votes for
    emigrants.
    Some people maintain that Ireland has so many emigrants that the
    resident voters could be put in a minority.Others say that those who
    leave the country and don't pay taxes here shouldn't have a vote in the 
    tax-levying houses of government.
    Others maintain that,because emigrants do not have a vote in their
    adopted country they should be given one here.
    What do the Celt-noters think?
     

    I believe that you have no right to vote in a country in which you
    don't reside. Once you leave to live in another country, you should 
    relinquish that right.
    
    
    Gerry

    
    I agree. If you leave Ireland, you should not have the right to have 
    a say in who governs Ireland.

    
     But then you effectively disenfranchise emigrants entirely. They have
    no say in either old OR new.
    
     Hey, we all belong SOMEWHERE, even if circumstance or the foibles of
    fate demand we BE somewhere else.
    
    Frank
     

    No one forced us (migrants) to leave the country. Because of that and
    because we don't contribute (financially, at least) to the country I
    don't think we should have a say in how it's run. I don't have a vote
    here but if I really wanted one I could become and Australian citizen
    and get one that way.
    
    I think that if I was still living in Dublin I would object to people
    living abroad having a say in how the country was run.
    
    
    Tony.

    
    But Frank, its the people who remain who are affected by social
    and economic decisions made by the government, so only those
    who remain should decide who governs them.

    
     Well, perhaps Denis.  I was just thinking of those who left but with
    every intention of returning at some point in the near future, and 
    with no intention of taking out citizenship elsewhere.
    
     I just put myself in their position and don't like the idea of
    being efectively cut off from the political process of both old
    country AND new.
    
     On the other hand, I see the point about not wanting people who
    don't have to live in the community have a say in the running of it.
    Almost like the Carpetbaggers in the American South in 1870.
    

    Beal bocht and goodskinmanship politics. Hobson's choice. Who needs it?
    
    Not that it's much different anywhere else.
    
                                  M.
    

    I can see on casual observation that a majority of the repliers here
    are against granting the vote to emigrants.
    It is however the official policy of the PDs and FF and has the support
    of all parties in Ireland.
    I think it would be foolish for the reasons outlined to do so.
    It looks as if the politicians,who hav disillusioned the punters at
    home are looking to gain support by calling in the votes of what they
    probably imagine to be the less well informed emigrants abroad.
    If a person abroad makes arrangements to pay full Irish tax on his
    income and purchases (the difference between his local tax and the
    Irish ones ) I'd have no objection.
    Otherwise I can imagine a lot of foolish decisions being made which
    they won't have to pay for and we residents will have to foot the bill.
    I am of copurse assuming that emigrants would be in the majority in
    this case which given the endemic rate of emigration from this country
    is not as impossible as it might appear.....
    

    
    I have every sympathy with those that emigrate because they are
    unable to get a job. But a lot of employed people emigrate simply 
    because they are not prepared to tolerate our high rate of taxation.
    Again, I have to say, if you leave the ship, you should'nt have a
    say in what course it takes.

    If the emigrants did find themselves in a majority, they could then vote
    to have the government set up outside the country, say somewhere like
    Bangkok....generate some enthusiesm, fewer self-intrested politicians,
    get some people with a more Platonic view of government, altruistically
    motivated, (for the good of the people type people) involved.  Ha!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    (I was up late last night, the Fatima's were great). That's my excuse
    and I'm sticking..........!
    
                               yawnM.

Question on Irish citizenship/passport.

I have heard that it if an American ( not American-Irish) marries an
Irish person, that they have to wait 3 years to get an Irish passport -
is that true ?

I have checked thru the Notes relevant to this topic here and from what I 
read, it would appear that if you marry an Irish person, you automatically
get Irish citizenship, as will you family.   That is what I though the
situation also was.

Can someone clarify this and maybe the process to follow, to get Irish
passport / citizenship ?

Thanks.

gc

    RE: citizenship through marriage
    
    When I got married in Ireland last summer, I was told that marriage did
    not qualify me for Irish citizenship. The person I talked to further
    went on and said that marriage didn't even automatically qualify me for
    work in Ireland !! He said that if I wanted to work I'd still have to
    get a company to sponsor me (job offer, fill out the apropriate forms,
    etc.) but that the sponsorship was made much easier by the marriage.
    
    I, too, had heard the thing about having to wait 3 years and then
    obtaining citizenship. What I was told to do was "wait three years and
    call back." (exact words, no joking) "There, currently, is no law which
    says a foreigner can obtain citizenship by marrying an Irish
    citizenship."
    
    Needless to say, I was a bit disappointed to find all this out.
    
    My suggestion would be to try and find out for yourself. I think you'll
    find that you'll get a different answer from every person/govt. agent
    you talk to. I rang a number of agencies before finding the "correct
    one". Maybe the person you talk to will tell you something different.
    
    
    If you have any questions, give me a call.
    
    Chris

    RE: .45
    
    >What I was told to do was "wait three years and call back." 
    
    Maybe they meant wait three years, and if you still want to get
    married, call back.
    

    
    	insinuating it takes 3 years for one's head to clear before a
    	decision of such magnitude can be thought through???