Conference tallis::celt

    
    Its good to see this sort of thing happening, and I wish Victoria
    all the very best. It will be good to see American effort and (I
    assume) money flowing in to N.I. to help the peace process, rather
    than into the funds of the terrorists on both sides.
    
    Ultimately however there will never be peace until mis-informed
    outsiders make stupid comments like - "perpetuated by HMG". As a
    Northern Irish Catholic, I can assure you that this is a very one
    sided opinion and is the direct result of propaganda. If HMG could
    find anyway out of N.I. honourably they would jump at the chance!
    
    Michael
    
    p.s. Its good to be back after a long time out of this note, it
    was always the place for a good debate!
    

    
    Re: .1 
    
    Can you find were the word STOP should fit in that last paragraph!
    
    (Boy am I out of practice or what):-)

    re: .1
    
    The only note around here that's the "direct result of propaganda"
    is yours. And Brit government propaganda at that.
    
    How can you justify the British government's 20+ years of premeditated
    murder, institutionalized terrorism, massive military intervention,
    and well-documented human and civil rights violations in IRELAND
    to maintain a morally bankrupt position of partitioning Ireland,
    and forcibly denying Irish self-determination, national democracy, and  
    independence?
    
    Please, tell us. I'm sure a lot of Irish people on both sides of the
    Atlantic would love to hear your justification and defense of the
    British government's position.
                            
    God knows, HMG needs it.

    I think that the first step to peace in Northern Ireland will be
    Britain's intent to withdraw her forces.  With the collapse of the
    Iron curtain, Northern Ireland will soon be the ONLY armed border in
    Europe. Kind of ironic isn't it?
    
    As a first stage of withdrawal, British soldiers in Northern Ireland
    should be replaced by a pan-European force.  This would be an
    honourable first step by HMG.
    
    George

    There are no Saints on either side and these monomaniacal diatribes 
    inevitably decend Dante's spiral into hell's ditch.
    
    The country needs to free itself from several shackles that, imho, take
    precedent and may in the long run actually aid a solution to the issue in 
    question, primarily the grip of the Catholic church on the Government, the 
    Constitution and the minds of the people. But also, SPUC, their allies 
    and small mindedness, outdated and condecending attitudes to women and
    womens' issues/rights, the "beal bocht" cap-in-hand approach to
    European/International politics, the gossip/squinting windows mentality
    and indifference to minorities etc.
     
    Solutions come from giving not demanding, listening not shouting,
    learning, understanding and accepting.                                                                  
    
    

    Murp,
    
    You have been too long out of Ireland; the date stamp on your
    information has expired.
    

    
    Hello again, 
    
    Sorry not to get replying sooner but I had a day off yesterday!
    Well things have heated up a bit (surprise, surprise). Ok I'll answer
    as requested.
    
    Re: .3 (DROTTER - whats your name?) Anyway, let me address some
    of your points. We were talking about H.M.G. and you mentioned
    premeditated murder - I have had two very close friends murdered
    in the Northern Ireland Troubles, one (a catholic) was killed in
    a bomb explosion in a pub. The bomb was planted by the U.F.F. (Ulster
    Freedom Fighters - a protestant terrorist group). The bombing was
    a tit for tat action following a Provisional IRA bombing of a
    Protestant pub a few days before. - My second friend (a Protestant)
    was kidnapped and shot in the head several times whilst on his way
    to College, the murder was claimed by the Provisional IRA - I cant
    remember if this was a tit for tat killing. - Non of my friends
    have been killed by the British Army! 
    
    Institutionalised Terrorism - I really need to know a specific example
    here to answer, but I do know that I was working in Belfast during
    my school vacation as a shop assistant many years ago, and on one
    particuar Saturday the IRA planted bombs all over the City. There
    was two "devices" in the street my shop was in. I remember the Army
    bomb squad running around trying to defuse as many as they could.
    One went of just a couple of doors away (scared the s**t out of
    me) the second was defused. - If thats British terrorism then I
    was glad of it that day!
    
    Military Intervension - In 1969 the British troops were brought
    to N.I. as a direct result of calls from the Catholic leaders and
    Civil Rights campaigners, calling for protection. They were welcomed
    with open arms and even given tea and sandwiches etc, as the did
    their foot patrols around the country. If the I.R.A. had decided
    to "turn" on them in order to advance the cause of Irish Unity,
    they probably would be long gone by now!
    
    Human and Civil Rights violations - True, but mainly prior to 1969!
    Over the past decade, I would say that if anything there has been
    a marked pro-catholic recruitment policy, particularly by the H.M.G..
    I know many of my old school mates are now working in Goverment
    offices and Departments in N.I., and they are by no means in the
    minority. 
    
    Forcible Denil of Self-Determination - I remember when I was 18
    or 19 (1974/5), onew of the first occasion I had to Vote, was in
    a Referendum. The question was do you want N.I. to be United! -
    Im sure it was worded more offically than that, but that was the
    question! And the vast majority of people in N.I. said no. The
    percentage was such that it was obvious that a large section of
    the Catholic community also didnt want to be part of the South.
    (I actually voted for, I would indeed one day like to see Ireland
    United, but I wouldnt want to live in the South as it is today!
    - Now your really talking about abuse of Civil rights! Catholic
    Church virually running the country, no abortion, no contraception,
    rampant inflation, income tax at nearly 50%, and a public utilities
    infra-structure that could make east Germany look modernised!).
    
    Face it! The majority of people Catholic and Protestant dont want
    to be part of the South of Ireland. I like you like the ideal of
    a United Ireland, the reality is you can keep it. Especially a United
    Ireland that Gerry Adams wants, with a Socialist ecomony and Goverment.
    No thanks, it would be a bit like California uniting with Mexico!
    
    Best Regards
    
    Michael
    
    p.s. That should get some discussion going! (God, I love this note!).
    
    

RE. .5 (FSOA::KSULLIVAN)
    
>Catholic church 
>SPUC
>small mindedness
>outdated and condecending attitudes to women 
>The "beal bocht" cap-in-hand approach to European politics
     
Well said K.

These were the things I hated about Ireland and contributed to my decision
to leave the country, not the lack of work which is commonly belived to be
the main reason why people go.

I decided to leave on the day the results from the divorce referendum came
out. I was embarassed and ashamed to be Irish that day. It really brought
home to me how some (the majority obviously) people think.  When posed with
the question, 'Shall we allow divorce', the average Irishman thinks :

	- I don't want want one, so I'll say no
	- The church say's it's wrong - so it must be !
	- I heard that if I say YES then the missus will get half me money

		BUGGER THAT - The answer's NO !

   I wonder if the referendum would go the same way if it were held today.



While I'm in a bad mood.....


Those SPUC bas***ds. They're a dangerous lot. I once saw a demonstration led
by members of SPUC (called SPUCKERS) outside a chemist shop in O'Connell St.,
Dublin. It was a demo against the owner.

His crime ??



Yes, you guessed - He sold those nasty rubber things.....


Which brings me to the point of all this moaning.

We can NEVER expect the people in Northern Ireland to merge with people from
the Republic while we (southerners) hold these antiquated opinions and indeed,
uphold some of these ideas as laws. 

Getting rid of these views should be our first steps towards peace.

Tony.

    Leaprechauns level.
    
    Sorry you should fell ashamed of your self Tony, nobody should ever
    feel that way unless they have done something wrong.  Did you ????
    
    Democracy is a funny old system  especially in Ireland.  Ireland is 
    overwhelmingly pro a 32 Republic.  It was thus before and since it was
    partitioned but that democracy (eloquently atriculated in the last
    all-island plebiscite on the matter ) was DENIED.  A new LIE was
    contrived  and now that LIE is labelled democratic. (e.g. saying that
    six counties is Democracy when it votes but that 32 is NOT.).\
    
    Another funny thing about the nice soldiers who came to protect the
    people -- withing three months they were ripping their homes apart
    and the IRA had not even emerged onto the scene.  The IRA is not a 
    problem in Ireland it is a SYMPTOM --- an irrational response to 
    a percieved injustice.. AND READ MY LIPS PLEASE.
    
    Second funny thing about Democracy is that it is tolerant except in 
    Ireland... These SPUCKERS as you called them Tony... had they the RIGHT
    to mount that protest....??????
    
    I despise them but I will defend their right to protest peacefully.
    
    Another thing about democracy is that over 64% of the electorate VOTED
    against the divorce referendum. That MY FRIEND is democracy and a very
    eloquent form of it.
    
    But Democracy is funny too as you see many voted against that
    referendum while in actual fact they were PRO-DIVORCE.  That piece of
    stupidly prepared legislation actually would have made any law on 
    divorce look more ridiculous than anything that obtains now.
    
    The people wanted answers to fundamental questions on inheritance and
    social welfare etc. and the gvmt. of the day said "right we need to fix
    that and we will do it as soon as the referendum is carried"  In other
    words give us a blank cheque.  THe people were a lot smarter than you 
    give them credit for.  At least the next time round these things will
    be done in Law up front first.  It called political honesty (an
    oxymoron I know).
    
    So don't apologise for anything unless you have done something wrong.
    The world is too full of apologists.
    
    Snake has a grasp of the real meaning of the word.

    Re:826.7                       
    Inflation in Ireland is now 2-3% a lot lower than British inflation of
    10%.Infrastructure is adequate for the population density concerned.
    Try Massachusetts if you want to see really BAD infrastructure.
    For a population that is 95% Roman Catholic the influence of the 
    Church is not as bad as it could be.Witness the bombing of abortion 
    clinics in the States...a peaceful protest is a big improvement on
    that.
    Divorce was defeated when it became evident that divorced dependants
    would be looking to the state for support instead of their breadwinners
    being made to foot the bill.Scare tactics such as these work well in a
    poor overtaxed country.Income tax is so high because the state owes 
    26,000,000,000 pounds in debts,as opposed to earning 20,000,000,000
    pounds per year!! It is like a second mortgage for each of the 1
    million taxpayers and costs the atate 2,000 million per year to
    service.Social Welfare costs another 2 Billion and then you have health
    Education etc....etc......
    In short the State spends almost 9 billion which it must raise directly
    from taxes...the borrowing option no longer applies.
    Even on top of the debt we must borrow 400million this year but it is
    expected to break even in 1992,then we must generate surplusses for the
    next 15 to 20 years at least to pay back the debt.......
    	This can only be achieved by having people stay here and not
    bailing out and complaining.(I do not include the unemployed here,just
    those who have a good job after getting their qualifications at Govt.
    expense who then flee the country to avoid taxes).
    Change can only be brought about if enough people stay here and fight
    it out with the Moral Establishment and other pillar of society who
    would keep us in the Dark Ages.

    Most people I've talked with voted against the divorce referendum
    because they thought it would incur greater cost to the state, not
    because of the morals involved.  And with the tax rate as high as
    it is in Ireland, people were ready to wait it out.
    
    What is the "small mindedness" issue?
    
    -g

Re.9 

    I think I may not have made myself clear. I'm all for democracy. My
    main gripe with the result of the divorce referendum was that people
    only took into account their own feeling when voting and had no 
    concern for people trapped in failed marriages.

>   ... These SPUCKERS as you called them Tony... had they the RIGHT
>    to mount that protest....??????

    You bet !
    Have I the right to disagree with them....?????
    
>   I despise them but I will defend their right to protest peacefully.

    Me too. I only disagreed with WHAT they were protesting about.
    

>   stupidly prepared legislation actually would have made any law on 

    I agree that the legislation wasn't perfect but it was the only attempt
    by any Irish Government to address the question of marriage breakup
    in Ireland. I still think that a lot of people had their opinion swayed
    by the catholic church.
    
    
>   So don't apologise for anything unless you have done something wrong.

    Did I say sorry ????????

    Leaprechauns say yes.
    
    When I vote Tony, I onl vote as I think that I should do.  I have no
    responsibility for others views.   My vote should always reflect my
    vision.
    
    You said you were ashamed of something or other.  I said don't be
    unless you have done something wrong you have nothing to apologise for.
    
    Snake is his own man.
    

    Re : Tony & the Snake
    
    I rember the divorce referendum only too well. I knocked on doors and
    campaigned for it. I know the wording was not perfect. What I was
    working for was an ideal that Divorce as a right could be available in
    this country. Most Irish people know that you CAN get a divorce
    (abroad) which is recognised in Ireland IF you have the money.
    
    I recieved a lot of abuse during that campaign and was called some
    names which cast doubt on my parents !!. I am happily married and did
    not campaign for myself but I knew people who NEEDED a divorce so they
    could pick up the pieces and it wa for them I worked so hard.
    
    There were two Anti-Divorce campaign. One was urban the other was
    rural. The Urban said the Wife would be penniless on the street and the
    rural said the farm would be divided between the couple. Both Leaflets
    were issued by SPUC.
    
    Another aspect about the referendum was that it was seized on as a
    chance to emberass and perhapes bring down the Govt. I have been
    standing at polling booths on behalf of the FG party for every election
    for the past 12 years and the same cars/people that deposits the FF
    faithful at general and local elections were there for the Divorce
    election even though "FF were offically neutral". It was a ugly scene
    in Irish political life and this aspect reared its head again with a
    RED scare during the recent presedential (s?) election. 
    I vowed to my wife (who wants me out of politics) that if I personally
    was ever subject to the smears and "whisper" campaign that waged during
    both those votes, I would chuck in the towel and resign myself to the 
    fact that the electorate are not ready for HONEST politics and the
    Gombeen Man is alive and well and living in Irish farms, Towns and
    cities !
    
    I digress.
    
    I remember taking down the Pro-Divorce posters after the election and I
    spotted writing on one of them that said "Thank you for caring - A
    Battered Wife". My heart went out to that woman and I felt ashamed to
    be Irish. True 64% said no and we are in a demoracy, but my conviction,
    still held, is that selfish interest won, when the scare tactics were
    brought into play.
    
    Another point Tony, I know you left Ireland. I remember canvassing for
    my own seat at a election and a man in his sixties in a recently
    renovated house (cost Thousands !), started giving our about how Irland
    had got very lawless since in left in the 50's and how is country is
    gone to the dogs etc. I got a right earful and eventually I said
    something along the lines that while he was making big money in the UK
    in the 50-80's, there were irish people at home trying to build a
    country. if you cared eneough you would have stayed and helped and also
    you stick your vote up your A?!"� as I would not want to be in any debt
    to you now! What I saying is that to leave is almost to say I don't
    care I don't want to work for change etc. On another note, I would not
    be in favour of exiles haveing a General Election vote as this to me
    represents representation without taxation which is what the US War of
    Independence was about ! That is probaly a bit too simplistic so readers
    please don't flare up. It is an opinion and is not carved in stone !!
    
    Slan
    
    Dom

Re. 14

    Dom,
    
    	You summarised the nasty divorce campaign very well. I have to
    agree with you on every point and I know what you went through as I was
    in a very similar position. 
    
    Re your personal points :
    
>    country. if you cared eneough you would have stayed and helped and also

     I care about Ireland and I'm very proud to be Irish but I've also
     got the right to move myself and my family to another country to live.
     Who knows, I may be back .....

>    care I don't want to work for change etc. On another note, I would not
>    be in favour of exiles haveing a General Election vote as this to me

     Quite right too. I agree with you. We left the country so we have NO 
     right to have a say in how it's run.

     Sl�inte,
    
    
     Tony.


 P.S. Dom

	I was a member of FG also, in D�n Laouhaire (The only consituency in
	the country to vote in favour of divorce...).
	Where did you stand for election ?

    

    >re voting
    
    You have a point about not been allowed vote in Irish elections.
    However One could object to not been allowed vote in European elections
    (whats the Irish Governments stance on this ?). In Germany we don't get
    a vote.
    
    >  If you cared you would have stayed.
    
    Don't accept this argument. Ireland is not the centre of the Universe
    (the best place!!! I agree)..I don't feel any less Irish for moving.
    Part of Ireland becomming integrated in Europe should be the sharing
    of people and Culture surely???
    
    > Divorce Vote.
    
    Yes it was a sad time. I think people had the whole argument twisted
    and the words compassion and understanding were lost somewhere. And 
    I don't hold FF responsible either. We have seen the "shining purity"
    of FG in recent weeks!!!!!.I also remember the Catholic church comming
    out with some unbelievable stuff at the time. 
    
    slainte,
    
    Mick
    
    
    PS...Is Dukes gone..resigned...Whos the replacement???   
    

    Tony, Mick,
    Thank you for your constructive comments _ I am still waiting for the
    Snake to reply (God help me) !!
    
    Tony,
    
    "don't care" is probably too emotive a word. We have primary
    responsibilities ie Family, Work etc and I sopose I am saying is that
    where the prime responsibilities are in accord with the secondary
    responsibilities ie Country, then we reach a decision.  I have gone
    through that process.  I like the quality of life offered by Ireland,
    Sure the Tax, Attitudes some times get you down but I and my family
    would have difficulty re-adjusting to another country, culture so I am
    not living in Irleand simply to enforce change. My need to see change
    could be similar to saying, I want to improve the house I live in as it
    is not all bad and I like it so I will devote resources to improving
    it !
    
    Mick,
    
    I agree FG were no angels in the presedential election. I was unhappy
    with the whole campaign as we had a credible candidate in Austin Currie
    and instead of getting the medias attention of the shortcomming of the
    other candidates we should have spent our energy on promoting the
    attributes of our own candidate.
    
    Dom.
    
    PS : Dukes resigned yesterday. He would have been defeated in the
    confidence vote today anyway.  He was good but not good eneough. His
    three years were very stateman like but were in the end damaging to
    the party as we were rudderless and nobody knew what we stood for. He
    was a poor second to Dick Spring in the Dail debates and his own front
    bench were in revolt also, because of his putting the country first
    style of leadership. That sounds cynical but his job as leader is to
    lead a party into power, he was unlikely to do that. He assisted the
    Govt when the policy were in the "general direction" of FG, the problem with
    that was the people did not give FG credit for that period of stability
    that they gave the country.
    
    It is probable John Bruton will be elected party leader next week. He
    has leadership qualities but I consider myself in the liberal democrat
    rump of FG and Bruton is classed as coming from the old values FG. He
    has said that he will be continuing the work of Garrett Fitz in
    promoting social change but I am in a wait and see mode. 
    Bruton is been opposed by Ivan Yates who is a liberal also but he is
    not at the races when it comes to getting eneough support. Micheal
    Noonan and Peter Barry said they will NOT contest.

    Democracy, as I understand it, does not simply mean "majority rule" 
    but should also encompass and protect the the rights/beliefs of the 
    (outvoted) minorities. (Obviously within reason, excluding murder, 
    rape etc.).
    
    The Catholic religeon is based upon Faith, yet in Ireland the Church
    seems to have little Faith in it's flock, so little indeed that it
    needs to have it's own teachings/beliefs reinforced by the laws of
    the State. Seems like a vote of no confidence.
    
    If divorce, abortion, contraception etc. etc. are contrary to the
    Catholic beliefs, then nothing else should be relevant. That the 
    remaining 5% (?) of the population have access to these choices under 
    State law should be no cause for concern to them. 
    
    The seperation of State and Church issue has been part of the history
    of most modern democracies, and in all cases both patients survive the
    operation.       
    
     
    
    

    re: -1
    
    Nicely stated.....
    
    I am usually a read-only noter...I'd like to share a few observations.
    I 'read' this conference to gain a better understanding of what is
    Ireland today and past history that influenced it's culture. 
    Generally, the topics are informative and I leave the file a bit more
    clear... the noters currently living in Ireland contribute their view,
    the noters born in Ireland who have relocated contribute their view,
    and other Irish in heart and soul from other countries contribute their
    view.  It is stated that we can't always get the correct insight from
    the media abroad, that you have to live there to know the true story. 
    Yet, as typical in anything that is trying to undergo change, even the
    people over in Ireland can't agree on what is true and what is
    'twisted' for political/religious gain.  This may be a simple view, but
    my hope for Ireland is a unified country where the people in each
    factor will have the freedom and the mutual respect to choose and live
    their lives according to their own conscience and beliefs.  The
    catholic church can dictate values of the people that choose to be
    catholice, but has no right dictating the laws of the other populace
    and eliminating their right to choice.  The same goes for the British
    Gov't in the North.  (my view)
    What I've noticed in this conference is that even amongst the above
    mentioned contributors, one is not allowed to share a 'view' without
    ridicule from someone who has a different view.  If someone is grossly
    misinformed...that is one thing to correct him/her.  But if someone is
    giving their view based on an educated and moral digestion of the
    circumstances, then a debate can ensue from the noters that disagree
    without the underlying agression and attack on personal decisions. 
    Ireland is never going to be 'healthy' if people can't allow other
    people to have different ideas yet be able to coexist.  
    Sometimes I read the responses and feel sad that the 'war' even exists
    in a conference set up to unite and inform.
    
    I may not live in Ireland, but I was raised with a heart-felt belonging
    to Ireland.  Thus why I read this note....
    
    The internal conflicts in Ireland are not that different from crisis we
    have faced in the last 250 years in this country...some we are still
    facing...yet we try to maintain that element of choice.  It gets ugly
    here too...but there is still that underlying knowledge that if morally
    a cause is right you can persue it; you may not have enough backing to
    enact a permanent change, but at least you have the choice to try
    without life threatening risk.  There are a lot of discriminatory
    problems here that are faced every day....but we are making progress. 
    I lobby for animal rights...we are educating....maybe not getting the
    laws we want, but we are making a difference.
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is the topics here can touch some very
    strong emotional points and people should have the freedom to discuss
    their views and be respected for them...even if you strongly disagree. 
    Disagreement can be countered without the ridicule and personal attack.
    
    jo

    re .19
    
      But Jo, if anyone of Celtic blood exceeds their allotment of 22
    agreements per year (decided by an ancient Druid lottery) they'll
    shrivel up and die.  
    
      Obviously, the people here are perilously close to their limit
    and don't want to tempt fate.
    
                                  :-)
    
    Frank
    

    re .19
           Good statement!!!!!!!!
    
     Jos�