Conference tallis::celt

    Yes we are but only I think because we tend to travel a bit more than
    others. Maybe travel is the wrong word. We tend to get forced into
    travel either by being transported or for economic reasons or simply
    because we are starving (the famine). Because of this where we came
    from is so much more important to us than those who travelled for
    adventure or conquest.
    I'm just returned from a christmas at home and I miss it like hell and
    will spend the next six months lamenting and crying in my pints, saying
    things like the Murphys always tastes better at home than it ever did
    anywhere else in the world.
    I didn't leave because I wanted to see the world, I left because the
    thought of subsidising a bunch of dossers in Dail Eireann while they had
    referendum after referendum about divorce and abortion and seemed
    uninterested in the fact that the vast majority of the workforce was
    taking home a pittance after tax while the farmeres and the self
    employed did what the hell they wanted to do, made me puke.
    
    Punctuation was never my strong point when I get angry and upset.
    
    A Paddy in South Queensferry
    Kieran

    re:.-1 : Too political.  The question is very philosophical.
    
    	Are the "Celts" (there are others, y'know) more interested:
    
    	Well, as a 3rd generation emigrant, my vote is "yes".  I was
    brought up from infancy to know, undersand, and remember my heritage.
    I grew up with Irish music, Irish history, Irish geography, etc.
    and I'm very glad I was.  It was instilled into me to live my heritage
    every day.  I still have a 2nd cousin (grandma's cousin) who was
    born in 1886 in Ireland, and who is very lucid regarding the history
    she lived through, Irish as well as American.  She adds a perspective
    on life that I never would have experienced otherwise.
    
    	When I lived in Ireland, on contract, from 1980 - 82 (I'm sure
    Mr. Ferrie remembers those days), most of my friends were amazed
    that I knew as much about their music and history as they - in many
    cases, even more ("more Irish than the Irish themselves").  I must
    allow much credit to my father, who insured that his children learned
    and remembered where our people came from and drilled his interest
    of the legacy into us, every day.  As I child, I never really
    understood why, but as I grew older, the reasons became clear.
     Never forget your "roots", and in doing so, understand why it was
    required that the forebears HAD to relocate.  The life I live now
    is due to those that came before me:  Emigrate, or die.  We have
    no choice.
    
    	The reason I now live in this wonderful country is because my
    great-great grandfather, and my grandmother, had the good sense to
    escape from an economically desolate nation (getting better now!)
    to seek a better life on this side of the pond.  But at the same
    time, they made sure to educate their offspring about the beauty
    and uniqueness of the "auld country".  I have been lucky enough
    to go "home" again, and given the chance (and cash) I'd live there
    forever.
    
    	Anyway, I'm rambling here.  I guess I'm trying to say that,
    YES, the Celts definitely have more of a tendency to remember and
    pine for their heritage, but I think we've got damned good reason.
    
    	McQ
    

    I always thought that Celts had a tendency to be more interested
    in genealogy and history than other people until I tried to bring
    the subject up with friends who were predominately of Scottish
    ancestory.
    The reactions I had ranged from blind indifference to outright
    hostility.
    The only kindred spirits I have ever met where friends of Irish
    descent or Highland Scots who were first generation Lowland.
    This got me thinking.
    The conclusion that I have come to is that for some one to have
    a passionate interest in these subjects they must have an element
    of feeling like a stranger in a strange land and a yearning for
    an otherness.
    Another part of the problem in Scotland is that in our schools our
    children are taught english history thinly disguised as british
    history and are taught bugger-all about their own history and culture.
    The last element in the equation is the de-huminising effect of
    urban living in modern industrialised nations which causes a
    dislocation in the psyche.
    People become numbers in a concrete jungle, they feel they have no
    past and can see no future.
    They don't know where they've been so they can't see where they're
    going.
    Possibly some day things will get better if we can only throw off
    the insidiuos oppression of our bigger neighbours.
    
    
                                                         Kenny.

    re .2
    
    I thought that was the point I made. "Emigrate or Die". We love our
    history and culture because we have to leave it behind us.
    
    As for your point about "more Irish than  the Irish" I think what .3
    says is right. In Ireland these days the American/British culture
    invades everywhere through newspapers and TV and music especially if
    you live in the city. In the country things are in a lot of ways much
    as before with regard to music and heritage- however today you can see
    the other elements gaining the upper hand. This would be a pity as all
    we really have left in these global days are those things which make us
    "different".
    
    A Paddy in South Queensferry
    Kieran

    Kieran,
    
    In .4 and .1 you have touced on a few very sore points. If I read
    your notes correctly it was no a story of "Emigrate or Die". You
    basically left for other reasons.
    
    We who have stayed at home are trying to banish forever (hopefully)
    the need for forced emigration. If that means high taxes - then
    so be it. 
    
    However it also means changes in the Irish culture. These are also
    necessary. We cannot leave to old "Pigs in the parlour" syndrome
    of poverty around among the people who stay. We need to be able
    to provide decent standards for everyone here as well. This appears
    - to me - to be what you are moaning about. I hope never to see
    this again.
    
    Excuse spelling and grammar. I get very emotional when I get upset.
    
    			MBr

    
    I have always been interested in my heritage (Irish).   
    It wasn't until recently that I noticed the difference between mine 
    and my husbands attitude towards our ancestories and I started to 
    wonder why.  
    
    My mothers parents came to the US in the 1920's as teenagers, with
    very few pictures of home.   My father moved here when he was
    in his early twenties.   As children, we almost never saw pictures of
    my father or grandparents as children, or where they grew up, or
    their brothers or sisters.     We had one picture of my father and
    his family when he was 6 years old - it was like gold.   One of the
    few glances we had at our grandparents on my dad's side.   This was
    paricularly a curiosity for me since my dad always said I reminded
    him of his mother.  He had told us so much about these people and 
    Ireland - and there they were in a picture.   
    
    My husbands grandfather overwhelmed me one day when he pulled a trunk
    stuffed full of pictures dating back 4 generations.   I thought
    that it was a wonderful treasure.  Unfortunately, my husband wasn't
    very interested in it - he didn't know anything about those people.
    I was shocked.   His grandfather was dissapointed.   They had always
    lived so far away from each other that they never had much time
    when they did get together.  Never any time for family stories of the
    past.
    
    So, I think maybe for me it has to do with the stories my dad would
    tell us, and sometimes still does.  He has pointed out those things
    about us that remind him of our ancestors which makes us realize
    their impact on us.   Many times as children, when we'd be sure we were 
    in trouble for some mischief or act of determined stubborness he'd
    laugh and say 'well I guess you get that from your (grandfather, or 
    grandmother,)...'  and he'd tell a little story about something they
    had done that we reminded him of.   When he thought we were being 
    lazy or taking things for granted, he'd tell us about how hard 
    children in Ireland worked growing up, and how precious things we
    take for granted were - things as simple as a new pair of shoes.
    
    I think a second factor was how different Ireland was from where we
    lived.    My grandparents and dad came from somewhere so far
    away that you couldn't drive there.   They spoke differently than
    our friends parents.   They told stories of farming from sun rise
    to sunset, of Aran fisherman, of poverty and persecution, and of 
    fairies and magical places.   And, always, of the most beautiful land 
    in the world - with so much longing for home.   How could anyone grow 
    up with all this as part of their family and not want to know more.
                                               
    

    MBr;
    
    We who went away wish to banish forced emigration also. However we seem
    to disagree on the best method for this. Stifling all hope of reward
    for your efforts with high taxes doesn't seem to be the way  to me. We
    can however agree to differ and not get all upset.
    
    As for the "Pigs in the Parlour" that my son is where our culture comes
    from. We do not have to return to it but neither can we turn our back
    on it. You strike me as the kind of person who would have us all
    reading English and American papers and watching English and |American
    TV etc. All I want is an acknowledgment of the fact that we must
    maintain our own culture on top. Something like the Welsh situation
    where it is almost mandatory for S4C to run a certain % of Welsh
    programming. Culture also has very little to do with living standards
    or would you have it said that all the poor people in Ireland are
    members of Comhaltas Ceolteori na hEireann?

.7�    As for the "Pigs in the Parlour" that my son is where our culture comes
.7�    from. 
    
    No Way Jos�. That my son was the stereotyed *image* portrayed by
    the British(dare I say English) Establishment/Press in the 1800's 
    ie the pig in the parlour fighting and drunken Irish as displayed
    in PUNCH cartoons.
    
.7�           You strike me as the kind of person who would have us all
.7�    reading English and American papers and watching English and |American
.7�    TV etc. 
    
    Naw...Mike doesn't watch Dysentry or East Benders(though he has
    a gr� for Daniel O'Donnell :-) but I know he doesn't live in
    'cloud cuckoo land' either.
    
    Anyway back to the topic at hand. I've just asked a fellow workmate
    beside me(from the Isle of Wight) the title question of the topic
    and the answer I got,for what its worth, was "Only if they were/are
    stinking rich" :-) :-)
                          
    Tally Hoo,
    
    - Dave K.

    
      I think for the Irish the reason that heritage and culture are
    so important derives from the historical repression of the same.
    I was always fascinated by the fact that the Irish became involved
    in history virtually throughout the world.  I kept finding them
    popping up in the strangest places in the history books and most
    often involved in some sort of treason or another.  :-)
    
      I believe that dispersal of a culture's population tends to, in
    some ways, strengthen the identification with that culture.  The
    case of America is an anomaly however, since the "great melting
    pot" tends to stifle anything but the strongest ties.  
    
    Frank
    

    Frank, to a certain extent,is right,see 700.9.
    But what he is forgetting,or possibly he doesn't know,is that the
    reciting of a man's ancestors right back to a semi-mythical person
    has always been an important part of Celtic ceremonies.
    When someone was elected King or Chieftain the bard or sennachie
    announced his family tree to all the assembled populace.
    It was important to preserve the continuity of rule in what could
    be lawless and uncertain times.
    I believe that before the advent of christianity,and sometimes after,
    this recitation had a religious significance.
    This respect for genealogy is not only a Celtic trait and can be
    found in other cultures throughout the world.
    The Celts did not acquire this habit because of repression,they
    kept it alive in spite of repression.
    

    re .10 
    
       Ah yes, it's true.  What I DON'T know would fill oceans.  The
    Irish, like numerous other cultures, do have a very strong ground
    in their heritage, though I wasn't aware that it had been ritual-
    ized.  Thanks for the historical perspective.
    
       The Judaic culture was another that suffered perhaps an even
    more complete dispersal than the Irish and to a large extent the
    cultural identification remained (or became?) stronger because of
    it.  And in certain areas of the world the Jewish traditions were
    also subjected to similar attempts at annihilation. 
    
       Interesting question.  Does forced exile have a like effect on
    ALL cultures?  African-Americans, despite EXTREME repression in
    American history, are reaching back to their cultural roots.  But
    then despite active attempts at genocide, the native Americans were
    able to retain a large part of theirs.  Interesting question.
    
    Thanks