[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference tallis::celt

Title:Celt Notefile
Moderator:TALLIS::DARCY
Created:Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1632
Total number of notes:20523

699.0. "Gaelic vs Welsh???" by YUPPY::BLAKEB () Tue Jan 09 1990 11:43

    
    
    
    Hi out there...
    
    	Can any kind soul explain to me why there is such a big difference
    between Gaelic and the Welsh language? Since we have the same Celtic
    background why is our language so different? 
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
699.1LUTECE::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDWed Jan 10 1990 02:2111
    Re .0: Welsh and Gaelic belong each to a different branch of the Celtic
    languages. Welsh (as well as Breton and Cornish), belong to the
    Brythionic branch of the Celtic languages, while the 3 Gaelics (Irish,
    Scottish and Manx) belong to the Goidelic branch. The two branches have
    probably parted around 350 BC or before (there are quite a lot of
    different opinions about it), while Breton and Welsh parted around the
    sixth century AD and Irish and Scottish Gaelic around the seventh or
    eighth century AD. So the two branches had a much longer time to evolve
    separately. I think there are already quite a few discussions on that
    subject in older topics of this file.
    			Denis.
699.2Minding P's and Q'sTRIBES::CREANYesterday has been cancelledWed Jan 10 1990 04:0213
    The two divisions of the Celtic languages are usually classified
    as P-Celtic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and Q-Celtic (Irish, Scots
    Gaelic and Manx). THe difference between the branches is that
    wherever a letter P is found in a P-Celtic word, the equivalent
    Q-Celtic word contains a C (and vice versa). 
    Modern Irish does have a letter P, but it is found only in words
    imported from other languages. At one time a letter C was substituted
    for P: as an example the Latin word for Easter, Pasc, became in
    Irish Casc. In very old documents St. Patrick is called Catric.
    On the other hand the Irish saint Ciaran was called Perrin in
    Cornish.
    The P-Q split between linguistic groups is fairly common.
    
699.3USWAV1::CHAPLAINTue Jan 16 1990 04:3415
    
      Just looking at a map I can say for certain that the Welsh harbor 
    an abiding hatred for the vowel and use it only when the lack 
    thereof would endanger the muscles of the tongue.
    
                               Aberystwyth
                               Llanwrtyd
                               Rhondda
                               Pontypridd
                               Rhyl
    
      I mean REALLY.  One of these could be your hometown!
    
                                :-)
    
699.4Lack of Welsh vowels!IOSG::HUGHESCatrin HughesTue Jan 16 1990 12:079
    true, Welsh does use a lot of consonants - however it is not quite as
    bad as the previous note implies, for 'w' and 'y' are also vowel sounds
    in Welsh in addition to a,e,i,o,u.
    
    Also, it's all a question of what you're used to, in Russian for example
    it is possible to have five consonants in a row and they don't seem to
    have any problem. 
    
    Perhaps their tongues are shaped differently ? :-)
699.5But Listen to the SOUNDSTRUCKS::PRICERed sky @ night means...Fire!Tue Jan 16 1990 14:4611
    I was always confused in school when the Welsh alphabet was read
    out. All those additional "letters" (dd, ff, ch, ngh, ll,....),
    But once they have been learnt I find that Welsh is really easy
    to read - certainly compared to certain English words.
    Many was the time I had to read Welsh text without fully understanding
    the words or context (to my shame, I hasten to add!).
    
                                      
    Trefor
    
    
699.6GSFNET::BURNSThe Panama Canal is a busy ditchWed Jan 17 1990 10:2991
    

       <<< HYDRA::DISK$NOTES$LIBRARY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DAVE_BARRY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -<  Dave Barry - Noted humorist  >-
================================================================================
Note 290.0            Foreign Languages Made Simply Stupid            No replies
SMURF::DUNLAP                                        81 lines   8-FEB-1987 15:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	Foreign Languages Made Simply Stupid
		--by Dave Barry

Americans who travel abroad for the first time are often shocked to
discover that, despite all the progress that has been made in the past
30 years, many foreign people still speak in foreign languages.  Oh,
sure, they speak SOME English, but usually just barely well enough to
receive a high-school diploma here in the United States.  This can
lead to problems for you, the international traveler, when you need to
convey important information to them, such as:
   "Which foreign country is this?"
   And:
   "You call this toilet paper?"
   To their credit, some countries have made a sincere effort to adopt
English as their native language, a good example being England, but
even there you have problems.  My wife and I were driving around
England once, and we came to a section called "Wales," which is this
linguistically deformed area that apparently is too poor to afford
vowels.  All the road signs look like this:
   LLWLNCWLWNRLLN - 3 km
   It is a tragic sight indeed to see Welsh parents attempting to sing
traditional songs such as "Old MacDonald had a Farm" to their children
and lapsing into heartrending silence when they get to the part about
"E-I-E-I-O."  If any of you in our reading audience have extra vowels
that you no longer need because, for example, your children have grown
up, I urge you to send them (your children) to: Vowels for Wales, c/o
Lord Chesterfield Parliament Luckystrike, the Duke of Earl, Pondwater-
on-Gabardine, England.
   But the point I am trying to make here is that since the rest of
the world appears to be taking its sweet time about becoming fluent in
English, it looks like, in the interest of improving world peace and
understanding, it's up to us Americans to strike the bull on the horns
while the iron is hot and learn to speak a foreign language.
   This is not an area where we are strong, as a nation: A recent poll
showed that 82 percent of the Americans surveyed speak no foreign
language at all.
   Unfortunately, the same poll showed that 41 percent also cannot
speak English, 53 percent cannot name the state they live in, and 62
percent believe that the Declaration of Independence is "a kind of
fish."  So we can see that we have a tough educational row to hoe
here, in the sense that Americans, not to put too fine a point on it,
have the IQs of bait.  I mean, let's face it, this is obviously why
the Japanese are capable of building sophisticated videocassette
recorders, whereas we view it as a major achievement if we can hook
them up correctly to our TV sets.  This is nothing to be ashamed of,
Americans!  Say it out loud!  "We're pretty stupid!"  See?  Doesn't
that feel good?  Let's stop blaming the educational system for the
fact that our children score lower on standardized tests than any
other vertebrate life form on the planet!  Let's stop all this
anguished whiny self-critical FRETTING over the recently discovered
fact that the guiding hand on the tiller of the ship of state belongs
to Mister Magoo!  Remember: WE STILL HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.  Ha ha!
   Getting back to the central point, we should all learn to speak a
foreign language.   Fortunately, this is easy.
                   HOW TO SPEAK A FOREIGN LANGUAGE:
   The key is to understand that foreigners communicate with each
other primarily by means of "idiomatic expressions," the main ones
being:
   GERMAN: "Ach du lieber!" ("Darn it")
   SPANISH: "Caramba!" ("Darn it!")
   FRENCH: "Zut alors!" ("Look! A lors!")
   Also, you should bear in mind that foreign persons for some reason
believe that everyday household objects and vegetables are "masculine"
or "feminine."  For example, French persons believe that potatoes are
feminine, even though they (potatoes) do not have sexual organs, that
I have noticed.  Dogs, on the other hand, are masculine, even if they
are not.  (This does not mean, by the way, that a dog can have sex
with a potato, although it will probably try.)
   PRONUNCIATION HINT: In most foreign languages, the letter "r" is
pronounced incorrectly.  Also, if you are speaking German, at certain
points during each sentence you should give the impression you're
about to expel a major gob.
   Okay? Practice these techniques in front of a mirror until you're
comfortable with them, then go to a country that is frequented by
foreigners and see if you can't increase their international
understanding, the way Jimmy Carter did during his 1977 presidential
visit to Poland, when he told a large welcoming crowd, through an
official State Department translator, that he was "pleased to be
grasping your secret parts."

699.7Them's fightin' words :-)FSADMN::REESEBack to life&#039;s an ice cream cone..Wed Jan 17 1990 18:548
    Re: .3
    
    Careful now, my Da's folks were from the Rhondda Valley.  He also
    lucked out with his name, he managed to get most of the vowels in his
    name.......Taliesin :-)
    
    Karen
    
699.8USWAV1::CHAPLAINThu Jan 18 1990 05:297
    re .7
    
       He musta been found guilty of High Treason, stealin' all them
    vowels from the Queen's inventory.
    
                                   ;^)
    
699.9FSADMN::REESEBack to life&#039;s an ice cream cone..Fri Jan 19 1990 15:007
    Re: .8
    
    Nope, he lucked out and was born this side of the pond :-) ....so
    no worry about high treason :-)
    
    Karen