| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 592.1 | Provocateur! | USWAV1::CHAPLAIN | | Mon Jun 12 1989 09:30 | 6 |
| Whadaya tryin' to do, buRns? Rile up a normally peaceful, serene,
notes file with REALITY or sump'm? And me, just gettin' used to
wavin' my YOONYUN JAK again.
;^) <---GREAT BIG smiley face
|
| 592.2 | | TPVAX1::CULBERT | Free Michael Culbert | Mon Jun 12 1989 13:49 | 34 |
| FLAME ON!!!!
I can see it now.
Another American program informing the mostly ignorant American public
on the facts of how the IRA are a bunch of no good murdering
terrorists and the British SAS are only doing their job of protecting
the innocent and making this world a better place to live. There will
be nothing said of DIPLOCK, discrimination, torture, sanctioned
murded, etc.
Now, before you get all screwed out of proportion. I am not
defending the IRA in the killing of innocent civilians. But I am just
sick and tired of hearing how goddamned pure the British troops and
SAS are.
They have their share of "nut cases" and have done their share of
killing but when they murder innocent civilians it is either covered
up or ignored and the offender gets off scott free.
We did the same type of thing during the Police Action in Viet
Nam. It tends to catch up with ya though. Maybe thats whats
happening now in the UK with the "Time to Go" movement.
How's that for waking up the confrence..........
paddy
flame off!!
|
| 592.3 | | USWAV1::CHAPLAIN | | Mon Jun 12 1989 16:32 | 10 |
| Huh?...what?.....Oh, it's just Paddy praisin' all those murderin',
thievin' terrorists again...Now, Paddy, the whole world knows Mairead
and her cohorts were armed to the teeth with terrible weapons of
destruction when they were valiantly TWERPed by those brave English
boys. It's a known fact that one of them was carrying a Swiss Army
knife and a toothbrush with which to unleash torrents of devastation
upon the unsuspecting citizens of Gibraltar. So, Paddy, if you don't
mind I'll keep sending Maggie those autographed pictures of Hulk
Hogan for her private, uncensored pleasure. :-P
|
| 592.4 | Up the Republic! | BEING::DUNNE | | Mon Jun 12 1989 17:55 | 17 |
| Right on, Paddy! I'm constantly amazed at how much pro-British
propaganda there is in the American press. I tend to think it's
unconscious, because I can't believe the reporters are doing it
on purpose. Americans just have a "see no evil" response to the
British. I think the same thing is true of the American attitude
to Israel.
Virtually no one in the U.S. knows that the situation in the North
started because people were imprisoned for demanding the right
to VOTE in 1969. When I tell that to Americans, they are dumbfounded
that Her Majesty's enlightened civilization could have upheld such
a policy in 1969.
I have hopes for this PBS program though. PBS is a step ahead of
the rest of the Amverican broadcast media.
Eileen
|
| 592.5 | Too Simple by far! | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Tue Jun 13 1989 05:38 | 38 |
|
Here's a hot one!
re:4 - The "troubles" in the North are very complex and to say it
started because civil rigths protestors were imprisioned, is only
about 1% of a very long story.
Yes it is true to say that civil rights in the province was a major
issue and that the Northern Ireland Goverment at that time did go
over the top to try and stamp it out. With the use of B Specials
etc.
Remember that the British Goverment (to their credit at the time)
seen this happening and (not necessarily in this order) abolished
the N.I. Parliment and sent in the troops to protect the minority
community. Hence why, the early days the British troops were greeted
by the mainly Catholic community as friends and were given tea,
and food when they did their foot patrols.
Many Protestants in N.I. still hate the Para's for the killing of
protestors in the Shankill and Sandy Row areas at this time.
- There just is'nt enough time or room to explain how the troubles
escalated to to-days level. But it must be remembered that in the
early day it was the mainly Protestant N.I. authorities that were
responsible for the action against civil rights protestors and it
was the British Goverment and Troops which stopped this harrasment
continueing.
re0 - The action of the SAS in Gib was (In my opinion) over the
top. And an obvious breach of normal rules of law and conflict.
I dont want to justify what they did, however it pales into
insignificance beside some of the actions of the Provisional IRA.
Michael
|
| 592.6 | Murphy, Get in here quick ...Paddy's on FIRE !!! | STEREO::BURNS | YE3 Euro Tour 89' begins July 27th | Tue Jun 13 1989 08:51 | 15 |
|
I'll have the VCR ready for 9.00
Paddy: Did you go out and purchase one of those "sponge bricks" that
you can throw at the tv screen whenever you have the need. :-)
keVin
|
| 592.7 | | TPVAX1::CULBERT | Free Michael Culbert | Tue Jun 13 1989 10:28 | 31 |
| RE: .5
Michael,
You are right on in the fact that the 'troubles' in the North
are many. The imprisonment and murder of protesters did, in fact start the
escalation and intensity which brought on world publicity of the
true situation there. Before that the American public had no earthly
idea what went/still goes on in NI and sadly many still don't have
any idea. I believe the American press does not print the truth
intentionally due to the influence of our government. Bush is in bed
with Maggie so to speak. Obviously the value of the being allies with
England is more important than speaking out against the Human Rights
violations that are happening daily at the hands of the British Troops.
Yes the troops came, intentionally to protect the minority. That
didn't last long. As soon as the British Government learned the
minority wasn't going to lay down and take the sub-human treatment
any longer the troops used deadly force to try and quell the uprising.
Big mistake, as are the methods the British are still using to try
and fix-up (hide) the problems now.
Peace will hopefully come in my lifetime but it will be a MAJOR change.
The only successful way to institute major change is to include
all interested parties and have it facilitated by a neutral party.
In this case a neutral party means one that no vested intrest in
what the final picture looks like.
paddy (who'll be there in 44 day's)
8*) 8*) 8*) 8*) 8*)
|
| 592.8 | | CEILI::DARCY | | Tue Jun 13 1989 11:35 | 8 |
| Re: .5
Michael, I think the reason the British sent in their troops into
Northern Ireland after "Bloody Sunday" was because HMG feared an
invasion from the South. Troops in the Republic were being sent
towards the border.
-George
|
| 592.9 | Rather NI than NY | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Wed Jun 14 1989 05:37 | 27 |
|
re: .8
I knew this one was going to go on for a bit. Just a few quick observations.
1) British troops were in N.I. well before Bloody Sunday.
2) The Irish Government would NEVER send troops into N.I., because
a. they would stand a chance against the British army, b. they want
N.I. as mush as I want dog S*** in my garden.
RE .7
There will not be peace in my time or Paddy's in N.I. (Unless something
totally unseen happens). Mainly because of the attitudes held by
the two communities. And the type of statements made by people (such
as Paddy) on both sides, just continues to cause the alienation
of both communities, and does nothing to bring them to-gether.
However having said that the level of trouble isnt that big a deal.
It is quite possible to live in N.I. and never come into any direct
contact with any trouble. I would say that there is more trouble
and possibility of direct personal harm happening to an individual
in New York that in N.I..
Michael
|
| 592.10 | Good Show | KAOFS::G_LARKIN | Vidi Vici Veni | Wed Jun 14 1989 08:26 | 10 |
| I watched the documentary last night and thought it was reasonably
unbiased. It portrayed Moiread O' Farrell for what she was - a
terrorist - and also gave the other side of the story. It talked
about the attempted cover-up by the British Government of the Gibralter
killings, and the attempts by Amnesty Intl. to conduct an investigation
into the whole affair.
Not quite the one-sided view I was expecting.
Gerry
|
| 592.11 | | USWAV1::CHAPLAIN | | Wed Jun 14 1989 09:14 | 7 |
| re .10
Do we REALLY want to revive the debate over the word "terrorist"
and what the word MEANS and to who? I think not. Suffice it to say
that Mairead was killed by criminals.
Thanks
|
| 592.12 | | STEREO::BURNS | YE3 Euro Tour 89' begins July 27th | Wed Jun 14 1989 09:30 | 28 |
|
Wait till "Culbert" gets in here this morning ......
OPERATIONS : We need more Disk Space .. :-)
I more or less agree with "Brother Larkin" about the contents
the show, on a scale of 1-10 I gave it about a 7. I could have
done with a little less glory for the one from #10 Downing St.
I'll leave comments to .9 for Paddy
keVin
|
| 592.13 | Be gentle with me Paddy! | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Wed Jun 14 1989 10:13 | 10 |
|
Re .12, re .9
Thanks Kevin :-)
Tell Paddy to be gentle with me!
Michael (who really should'nt write notes in the morning when his
brain is still in bed!).
|
| 592.14 | "they cannot take our minds" | NRADM::MCEVOY | | Wed Jun 14 1989 14:09 | 23 |
|
As an unbiased observer I thought last nights program pretty fair
...those of us from the islands should remember when we speak of
bias it would not have been possible to see Gerry Adams Or Mariad
O'Farrell interviewed on TV in either Ireland or the UK. .not to
mention the display by the hooded volunteers.
The best account I have seen on the GIB murders was "Death on the
Rock" which was produced about a year ago by Thames TV in the UK
and was at that time very critical of the Govt and the SAS in fact
the Iron Lady and her cohorts tried to have the prog removed.
One other point of interest relative to the use of the SAS in this
case .......can anyone tell me how many arrests the SAS have made
in Ireland since the troops arrived .. ...my bet is not a single
one.
rgds
des
|
| 592.15 | | KAOFS::G_LARKIN | Vidi Vici Veni | Wed Jun 14 1989 14:32 | 6 |
| RE: 11
Who's starting a debate ? That was the title of the show ...was
it not?
Gerry
|
| 592.16 | | USWAV1::CHAPLAIN | | Wed Jun 14 1989 15:51 | 11 |
| re .15
Yup, that was the title of the show. A misleading title, in
my occasionally humble opinion ;^).
Don't the actions of the SAS on Gibralter amount to terrorism?
I never heard any allusions to THAT possibility in the program.
My incessant spiel that terrorism is in the eye of the beholder
has become a barbituate in the notes file so I'll...just...be...
movin'...on...fer...now....
Bye
|
| 592.17 | | TPVAX1::CULBERT | Free Michael Culbert | Wed Jun 14 1989 20:38 | 80 |
|
RE: .9
Michael,
> British troops were in N.I. well before Bloody Sunday.
You are so right I think they have been there in one capacity
or another since the partition..... But it still doesn't make it
right.
> The Irish Government would NEVER send troops into N.I., because
> a. they would (not?) stand a chance against the British army.
So true, isn't it sad when we judge how much killing power a
army has, thus preventing a sane and moral move by some other weaker
country (don't even try to bait me into a discussion on the U.S.A
roll in world politics, you will lose.)
> b. they want N.I. as much as I want dog S*** in my garden.
Goes to show you much has to happen before it is a smart move
for the Free State to bring N.I. under her wing. What kind of garden
do you have 8*)
> There will not be peace in my time or Paddy's in N.I. (unless
>something totally unseen happens) Mainly because of attitudes held
>by the two communities . And the type of statements made by people
>(such as Paddy) on both sides, just continues to cause the alienation
> of both communities, and does nothing to bring them to-gether.
Michael, it sounds as though you have thrown in the towel before
the fight has started. Or maybe just maybe you don't see the need for
a United Ireland. I believe people can do just about anything if they
want it bad enough, and work at it hard enough. There WILL be peace in
N.I. in my life time because people like me all over the world are
working very hard for it. And you non-believers can stay off to one
side so as not to slow us down. Note Michael I NEVER said it would be
easy, we are not that naive, and we know many MAJOR changes have to be
accomplished, all that means is it will take a long time. I learned
many years ago that "The only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time".
A United Ireland is not the most popular topic in the South or
the North. But guess what, here in the states the majority of people
did not want to seperate from England but thank God a few 'terrorists'
decided to through that damned tea off the boat. 8*) What I am
getting at is maybe just maybe a United Ireland ain't such a bad
idea after all. Of course many changes will have to happen and
that will take years no generations but God willing I will see it.
> However having said that the level of trouble isn't that big a
>deal. It is quite possible to live in N.I. and never come into any
>direct contact with any trouble. I would say that there is more
>trouble and possibility of direct personal harm happening to an
>individual in New York that in N.I..
Now is this the same as comparing apples and oranges? I assume
you mean New York City. Population 1988 of 7,164,742..... Hows the
crime rate in Dublin, Belfast,Derry,London ,or other major cities
in Ireland or England. Let's not get into the childish crap on gun
control and the likes ALL major cities has crime,murder etc.
I don't think there is one person of the age of reasoning in N.I
that hasn't been directly or indirectly been affected by the warfare
there.
Now for my comments on the show..... It was one of the most un-biased
shows I have seen I rate it a 6.5 on a scale of 1-10. Not enough
information on what the SAS knew and what prompted the murders.
That is probably what we'll never know But all in all it was nice viewing.
So Michael what is the answer????
paddy
|
| 592.18 | Have fun Paddy!! | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Thu Jun 15 1989 05:41 | 74 |
|
Hi Paddy,
(And I asked you to be gentle with me :-))
Actually my garden could do with some ferilizer!
Your quite right about my negitive thinking! But having lived in
N.I. for 26years of my life, I also know that the differences between
the communities are cultural primarily and you cant easily or quickly
change a persons culture.
It would be possible to come to some sort of "cease fire" but the
basic cause's of the "troubles" would be just under the surface
waiting to errupt at any time.
I like you believe that it makes sense to have a United Ireland.
I like you believe in a united Ireland. But it has to be with the
consent of all the people in the community. And it has to be done
peacefully! O.K. so the reason we have the problems we have to day
is because the plantation (etc) was'nt done with consent or peacefully
but two wrongs dont make a right!
The Provisional IRA is not the way to a Unite Ireland. Even the
majority of Catholics in N.I. (like my self) would agree to that.
Why? I hear you ask - well the answer is simple. They are not
terrorists they are not freedom fighters, the are gangsters. True
there are men and women who have high ideals in there ranks who
believe in the nationalist cause and believe that it is right to
use violence to achieve this (i dont agree but I respect there views).
But also the Provo's have a very active "business". They open drinking
clubs and other "shops" and sell the goods like anyone else, but
if anyone else opens in the area a similar enterprise they either
have to pay a fee to the IRA (protection money), or there premises
are blown up. Also they have a very lucritive business taking
protection money of local builders again so nothing will happen
to the new houses or offices that are being constructed. This sort
of activity is normally justified by the old story of the money
goes towards buying what ever is needed for the "struggle". But
having lived in the Province and seen the life styles of some of
the "top men" I can assure you that noty all the money goes in that
direction.
The main reason however that I would live in a United Ireland under
Provo rule is that they are a communist group.
This is not well documented and the guys I knew who were involved
on the political side were quite smart people. They openly admitted
that the took a certain smudge pride in taking money from the USA
(the worlds No.1 capitalist country) to finance their activities.
I know in recent years the tone of the politics has become some
what watered down and the manifesto is more socialist than communist,
but this is still not my way of thinking.
Finally the killing of innocent people, mainly tit for tat, is not
the mentality of someone I wish to run a country. Several of my
friends have died in this way (both catholics and protestants) and
it is futile.
I dont agree with a lot of what Britian does and has done in N.I.
but at this time it is the only viable alternative. With the exception
of the terrorism, the quality of life in N.I. is excellent, for
both communities.
Michael
Paddy you should have fun replying to that one. I dont know when
but one day we will meet and I think we'll have a really good debate.
Whilst it is obvious that we dont see eye to eye on a lot of things
I hope that at no time you take any personal offence at any of my
rantings. ---Long live free speech!----
|
| 592.19 | Irish Diplomacy at it's best .... | STEREO::BURNS | YE3 Euro Tour 89' begins July 27th | Thu Jun 15 1989 08:46 | 17 |
|
Re: .17 & .18
Well done lads ..... nice to see people being able to express
their views without resorting to personal attacks. I'm certain
that more lively debate will follow :-)
Paddy: Re. the elephant ......SPIT IT OUT !!!!
keVin
|
| 592.20 | | TPVAX1::CULBERT | Free Michael Culbert | Thu Jun 15 1989 11:35 | 43 |
| Michael,
I hardly ever take active, intelligent discussion personally.
You do bring a refreshing and mostly expert opinion to the table.
I have heard that protection money is paid to gangsters and the
like sad but true.
I understand the political direction of the IRA from the books I
have read and talking to many many people.
My cousin is a socialist and we have had many long letters discussing
the differences between our two forms of government.
Understanding the culture of NI allows me the ability to agree with
some of what he believes in. If he only knows how it was growing up in
Belfast then he has a very limited scope of other governments.
Thus scoialism would seem to be the answer. I have asked him many
times to name me a country the size of the US that is socialistic that
doesn't have it's own set of problems. There isn't one. The masses of
Ireland will never go for a communist government. Simply because
communism is falling apart as we talk the only thing close to a
communistic lifestyle ic the Catholic Church especially the monastic
orders. My mother almost bopped me on the head when I made that
statement to her. I still think she has it out for me in some way
8*).
The two communities could learn to accept each other if, the economic
situation were different, the schools were intergrated, the million
other things started to happen, etc.
Simply put but very hard to accomplish is they must TRUST each
other in order to live and prosper. Trust only comes with consistant
delivery of agreed upon actions by both communities.
Well I've rambled long enough. If you come over to the North
while I am there I'll buy the first pint. It would be very informative
for the both of us and I'm sure we wiuld learn much.
And from me, don't take any discussion personal it is all just
words.
paddy
|
| 592.21 | Great Program on PBS the only station | HYDRA::GREENAWAY | | Thu Jun 15 1989 12:24 | 41 |
| keVin,
Thanks for the tip off on the shows viewing time. We had to drop
my in-laws at Logan Tuesday and might have missed it. When I told
my wife, a Dub, about it, she said, "Oh, it's probably one of those
biased Brit shows or niave US portrayal of the troubles of Northern
Ireland. She soon changed her mind.
We both thought the show was very unbiased and quite fair. I
would rate it highly at an 8 of 10, on it's content, understanding and
fairness of presentation. Like someone already mentioned, some segments
and interviews wouldn't have aired in Ireland and the UK.
I have grown to dislike the UK's Northern Ireland Sec Tom King, for
his never ending "her majesty" diatribe on the UK fair justice and
Tuesday's interview was no different. If you have to sit and listen to
him it's only fair to liston to Moriad and Adams. I liked the interview with
John Hume. He always seems to be well spoken on the North.
As I said to my wife I don't agree with the IRA, but I sympathise
with the North's troubles and the cultural uneveness, and recognise
the need for a strong force against the UK's military occupation.
I don't agree with a multitude of their efforts and agree that they
are mainly gansters with their own underground laws.
The fact that they are admitted Marxists scares me, since I just read a
biography on Lenin, and was amazed at how much can be accomplished
by a small minority extremely ruthless group (the Bolsheviks).
The tyranny in Russia is only now seeing a bit of light.
Today, China is a good example of how effective ruthless violence can
be. I heard last night that family and friends are turning in loved
ones and friends and the network pictures show people are afraid to
have their picture taken. The PBS show made a good point by stating how
the UK policies have fueled the fire over the years, only making the
troubles worse and IRA recruitment campaign boom.
I, like most, don't have a clean solution for NI. I used to
feel that if the UK pulled out and the Republic stayed out, an independent
NI would be the best solution. Unfortunately, this condition would
inevitably lead to a civil war type blood bath.
I could go on, but I just looked at the clock and gots to go...
Cheers,
Paul
|
| 592.22 | | SALTHL::MCCROHAN | Mike McCrohan @BPO Dtn 296-3040 | Thu Jun 15 1989 13:56 | 29 |
|
If I remember correctly, the Provos dont recognise the Dublin
government as a legitimate entity either. Their goal, as I
understand it, is not a united Ireland. It is a United Socialist
IRA_governed Ireland.
Paddy, If I might notpick...
> Thus scoialism would seem to be the answer. I have asked him many
> times to name me a country the size of the US that is socialistic that
> doesn't have it's own set of problems. There isn't one. The masses of
There are not many countries the size of the USA, period.
either in population or landmass. Those that are of the same
or larger population tend to be of the emerging/third world
variety, and have many issues other than Governmental models.
In essence, I dont believe your question is a fair one in that
there is no country of comparative size and developmental state
against which to compare.
And the USA has its own set of problems....I would equate the
AK47/Crack issue as being, to many US communities, on par with
NI to the UK or the Republic.
Yours from another perspective,
Mike
|
| 592.23 | Hup' ya boyo's ..... | STEREO::BURNS | YE3 Euro Tour 89' begins July 27th | Thu Jun 15 1989 15:05 | 21 |
|
Keep it Up lads .....
I do have a videotape copy of the programme if anyone wants to
borrow it for a day or two ...
As an aside note, a few of us will be at the "99" in West Concord
tonight around 5.30 to meet with John O'Reilly (JO'R from Texas)
See Note 568.*
And your're all welcome to join us for a "Jar" or two .....
Mr Greenaway don't forget to bring the Smoked Salmon :-)
keVin
|
| 592.24 | | TPVAX1::CULBERT | Free Michael Culbert | Thu Jun 15 1989 15:35 | 17 |
|
RE: .22
Mike,
You are so right with your statement, there are very few
countries that are the size or are close in population. So my next
question is, what countries that have socialism as a form of government
and don't have their own set of problems?
The US is far from a perfect place to live but it sure beats
the hell out of a lot of places I have been to.......
off to to real work
paddy
|
| 592.25 | | BOOKIE::DAVEY | | Thu Jun 15 1989 16:42 | 24 |
| re. Paddy:
> question is, what countries that have socialism as a form of government
> and don't have their own set of problems?
You could equally ask:
What countries that have capitalism as a form of government
don't have their own set of problems?
In both cases, none. Life's not so simple that all problems will
be solved by adoption of any particular type of government.
Speaking as a Brit (though no supporter of Mrs T) I found the PBS
program pretty fair-handed. It is so easy to come down on one side
or the other with simplistic solutions to NI's problems; I was
glad that they seemed to take neither side.
One more vote for a peaceful road to a united Ireland.
John
|
| 592.26 | A jug of wine, a loaf of bread... | BEING::DUNNE | | Thu Jun 15 1989 18:40 | 13 |
| Kevin,
Why don't you give us a little warning about these things :-)
On another subject: I hate to hear the problems in the North
referred to as cultural: people killing each other over religion
etc. I think not having the right to vote unless you were a part
of the property-owning majority is not a cultural problem. I also
think that if there were economic justice the average person
would not worry much about the religious difference.
Eileen
|
| 592.27 | Culture (in a dish) | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Fri Jun 16 1989 05:18 | 39 |
|
Re:20
I agree with all you statements about mixed education and trust,
being the way forward, infact its the only way forward. The problem
is that its the politicans on both sides thats stoping this happening.
Re:26
The problems in N.I. are cultural! (this is a generalisation but
its still a good 90% accurate).
The problems basically stem from two communities with very different
history's and very different views on how they would like to see
the future.
One side is basically Celtic in origin and due to history etc just
happen to be Catholic (in the main, there are quite a few people
now in N.I. due to mixed marriages etc who are Protestant by religion
but Celtic in there cultural thinking).
The Celtic faction feel strong ties with the Irish island and regard
it as home. And therefore wish that their part of that island was
united with the rest of it. Their traditional music, language, and
even sport has its origins in Gaelic culture.
The other grouping is Anglo-Saxon and feels a very strong link with
the rest of the United Kingdom, and again its just history and chance
that they happen to be mainly Protestant. And as before their whole way of
life is based on "British" standards, and have no desire to be part
of what the see as a foriegn country and culture.
As Paddy said in his earlier note is to mixed the two cultures to
produce a new one which can in some way come to terms with the
differences and make them the norm. Not easy but not impossible.
Michael
|
| 592.28 | | KBOMFG::KEYES | | Fri Jun 16 1989 08:28 | 32 |
|
If the NI problem was simply cultural I doubt if things would be
so bad. The absuse of power,justice,employment etc lay testimony
that its more that a cultural problem.An earlier note suggested
that the quality of life was excellent in NI except for the violence.
surely it was the lack of quality of life for the Nationalists that
gave birth to the Civil Rights Movement and then the Provisional
IRA...and These abuses are part of the reason the IRA continue to
get support.
I also see hope with Integrated schooling which has come mainly
from the people themselves and which was initally frowned by many
groups especially the Catholic church. I agree also with the last
note about the lack of progress by the politicians. Despite the
ANglo-Irish Agreement the violence has increased.Secterian Killings
are widespread.The follow up from London is to send in a certain
Army regiment to Belfast this summer who are noted for their outrageous
beheavior..Even the SDLP have called the decision incredible..So
much for the "policy of de-alienating The Nationalist Community.
The road to peace in NI is tricky..and in no way is it going to
happen if the paramilitaries from both sides are left out. Like
it or not they are role-players. Whilst both groups have their
fanatics...there are also reasonable(if thats the right word)
people who can and are willing to sit and talk. It was done before
in the 70's until it was undermined. The EEC must also surely have
a role to play.. it been a group that can be seen to have authority
and yet be impartial.
|
| 592.29 | Some reservations...... | TRIBES::CREAN | Capitalism is killing the butterflies | Fri Jun 16 1989 08:48 | 21 |
| Integrated schooling in NI........and what are you going to
teach in the schools?
Prior to 1922, all Irish primary schools began the day with
a hymn which had the chorus line..
I thank you God for making me
A happy English child.
Most of those advocating 'Integrated Education' in NI visualise
closing all Catholic schools and making all kids go to schools
nominally 'non-sectarian'. In NI, as in GB itself, fundamentalist
sects encourage their brighter members to become teachers in the
state system there to propagate ideas like the Bible being a
completely accurate historical and scientific document and their
being a hierarchy of races with the WASPs at the top and the
Irish somewhere near the bottom. They also hold that the British
government is unique in the world in that its' authority comes
not from a constitution or an electorate but direct from God.
|
| 592.30 | <contact> | KBOMFG::KEYES | | Fri Jun 16 1989 09:35 | 17 |
|
I dont think its that extreme in the NI integrated schools..but
you may be correct..Also the concept of integrated eduaction in
NI does not neccesarily mean the Kids all go to the same school..
Alot of what happens is that a bus load from say the Shore road
go down to the Falls for a few hours a week..and vica versa..In
many cases freindships are built out of these meetings..
We had a documentry in Germany recently where reporters monitored
these sessions...Comments such as "They actually seem like us"
and "its the first time Ive ever met one" speak for themselves.
It can only do good.
|
| 592.31 | | BOOKIE::DAVEY | | Fri Jun 16 1989 18:39 | 65 |
| re. .29
> In NI, as in GB itself, fundamentalist
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sects encourage their brighter members to become teachers in the
>state system there to propagate ideas like the Bible being a
>completely accurate historical and scientific document and their
>being a hierarchy of races with the WASPs at the top and the
>Irish somewhere near the bottom. They also hold that the British
>government is unique in the world in that its' authority comes
>not from a constitution or an electorate but direct from God.
I can't speak for NI, but I wouldn't have thought that this would
happen nearly as generally as your tone seems to suggest in GB's State
schools. Certainly that sort of teacher wouldn't have lasted
five minutes in any school that I went to England. That would be
if they ever got hired in the first place. And I went to a state
school in a protestant, Conservative, rural area. Certainly, in my
experience in school and from friends that went on to become teachers
in Britain, there is generally a strong enough feeling amongst the
teaching staff to deal with crackpots like this, religious or
otherwise. Believe it or not, Britain even has legislation to deal
with such overtly racist and discriminatory behaviour.
Actually, I do find it *extremely* hard to believe that anyone would
pursue such an overtly anti-Irish line in a British school. I'd
have thought that racism like this would (just as unjustifiably)
be directed at the Afro-Caribbean and Asian minorities in Britain,
where, as in other white-dominated countries, because of their skin
colour they are far easier targets.
I'm not denying there aren't religious/political extremists who
are teachers (in Britain, or indeed Ireland, the USA or anywhere)
but this seems to me to be a rather undeserved sweeping generalisation
about the state of the UK education system.
Re. the hymn (sung *every* day?) - remember that this was a time
when "England" was a general if inaccurate term for not only the UK
(of which Ireland was a part pre-1922) but the British Empire.
That's not to condone the use of the song, but we are in different
times now. Thankfully, I'd say that the majority of Britons no longer
have such delusions of Imperial grandeur (possibly with the exception
of our Prime Minister of the last 10 years, and some of her cronies).
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Britain should be proud
of its past (and present) treatment of the people of Ireland/Northern
Ireland. I'd say quite the opposite in almost every respect. Having
visited Northern Ireland last year, I as an Englishman found much of the
Loyalist flying of flags and slogans plastered over civic buildings -
"Belfast says NO [to the Anglo-Irish agreement]" etc. - offensive,
provocative and inflammatory.
Back to the question of integrated education, an integrated NI
education system could do worse than follow the US example, where,
by virtue of the Constitution, religion is kept out of the classroom
altogether - no religious assemblies, no religious education, no
school church services, no prayers. These are where most conflicts
are likely to arise amongst people with such distinct religious
points of view. Though I wouldn't pretend that the process of
integrating education would be easy, it is a vital first step.
We English aren't all bad you know - or is the Celtic Welsh blood in
my veins showing through :-)
John
|
| 592.32 | | USWAV1::CHAPLAIN | | Sat Jun 17 1989 09:57 | 24 |
| re .31 Hello John.
I believe as well that the Integrated School experiment in the
north of Ireland is, if nothing else, the most constructive step
toward alleviating the animosities between the two communities.
I also very strongly believe that religion has no place in the
classroom or any other public institution, and should be relegated
to the boundaries of church grounds.
The religious differences or any other assumed motivations for
the continuing division between Protestant and Catholic in the
north, however, are merely peripheral to the central issue which
has historically exacerbated that situation; namely ECONOMICS, and
the resentments that are fostered between two artificially created
classes of people (as ALL classes in ANY society are ARTIFICIAL).
The old wisdom that a comfortable middle class with decent jobs
and housing has no time for protest or confrontation is of parti-
cular relevance to the six counties. The simple fact is that the
Catholics in the north are discriminated against in all areas of
life that pertain to a better future and all the historical bull-
shit just serves to aggravate PRESENT grievances.
Thanks
-Frank
|
| 592.33 | Not so simple.... | TRIBES::CREAN | Capitalism is killing the butterflies | Mon Jun 19 1989 05:20 | 16 |
| Previous two....
This was the case when I lived in GB, though it may have changed
now. State Schools in GB (well in England, I never lived in Wales
or Scotland) had compulsory 'non-denominational' religious
instruction. This was a chore nobody wanted and any bible-thumper
was welcome to it. It was also noticable that school-teachers
were heavily represented in the leadership of the racist, bitterly
anti-Irish 'National Front'.
Regarding religion and schools in NI, religion is ONE aspect of
communal difference: they also play different games, listen to
different music, dance different dances etc etc.
J.P.C.
|
| 592.34 | | BOOKIE::DAVEY | | Mon Jun 19 1989 14:48 | 71 |
| re .32, Frank:
Agreed. And unfortunately Northern Ireland is not a prosperous part
of the UK anyway, exacerbating the economic inequality. It's
sad but true to say that in a society with a lower per capita income
those at the bottom tend to get trodden on even harder, especially
when there are extremists who will find scapegoats, whether they're
"lazy blacks", "lazy Catholics" or whatever. In many ways too, this
situation benefited the factory owners - the active discrimination
against Catholics meant that there was always a plentiful supply of
cheap labour. Now that employment opportunities are grim for both
protestant and Catholic (but still, however, especially if you're
Catholic) there is very little sense in continuing to perpetuate
those artificial barriers.
I'd like to hope that integrated education would give both Catholics
and Protestants in Northern Ireland the chance to see that there
really wasn't such a great deal of difference between the two sides.
It's not a magical cure-all, but at least it would be a start. The
discrimination has indeed been going on for hundreds of years; its
time to try to bring both sides together to begin to reverse the
process.
Re. .33
Well, I must say I am surprised at what you say about your schooling
in England. I have several comments to make (again drawn from my
experiences at school in England and from teacher friends):
- the requirement for a UK non-church-assisted school to provide
"non-denominational" - ie vaguely (Protestant-)Christian - religious
instruction, act of corporate worship, etc. has its legal roots in
the Education Act of 1944. Various factors have led to this being
widely ignored in recent years. The increasing number of immigrants
with non-Christian beliefs is one factor; the decreasing number
of teachers with any religious belief is another. I'd say that
very few non-church-related schools (in England at least) begin with
the once familiar hymns and prayers. I left school in 1982, and
it was years since I'd had to attend a religious assembly at school.
- The National Front and other neo-Fascist groups are miniscule
minorities and are not typical of British thinking nor of British
schoolteachers. They are anti-immigration, not specifically anti-Irish.
In areas of the UK where large numbers of Irish have settled, they may
be more directed against the Irish, but in most areas they pick
on people more noticeably "foreign" (whatever that might mean)
such as Asians and Blacks. The NF were in their heyday back in
the 70s, when they were capturing 100s even 1000s of votes in general
elections in certain predominantly-immigrant communities; thankfully
since then their numbers have dwindled considerably.
To infer that religious education in the UK is run by National Front
and similarly-minded teachers is about as sensible as saying that
geography in US schools is run by the Flat Earth Society. No, sillier.
It may occur in very isolated instances, but in most cases you'd
probably find that it's run by pretty normal people. In the days before it
seemed to fizzle out, I'd had RE lessons given by agnostics, a
Methodist, Catholics and low- and high-church Anglicans (I had no idea
what any of the others might have been). And this RE was far more
likely to be a discussion of (often humanistic) morals and/or
comparative religions (Judaeism, Hinduism, etc) than "reading from the
Scriptures", as happened in the old days. In many multiracial areas
(I grew up in a 99.9% white area), religious education has been
abandoned totally.
I don't think I'm na�vely defending the English school system; it's
just that I find your reporting of it difficult to equate with my
experiences, or of the experiences of friends of mine who grew up
in the system elsewehere in teh country.
John
|
| 592.35 | I luV scull!! | KERNEL::DICKSON | | Tue Jun 20 1989 11:07 | 10 |
|
re: 34
>in teh country.
Lets Talk about schooling first and then about whether to mix it
or not! :-)
Michael
|
| 592.36 | | TRIBES::CREAN | Capitalism is killing the butterflies | Tue Jun 20 1989 11:37 | 17 |
| Re .34
I have of course no strong knowledge of the situation in England
now as I have not lived there since 1972. However, regarding the
NF I think it is still around and still has some following among
teachers (when I lived there, most of the leaders were teachers).
It also appears that the organization has considerable support
in the prison service, as both Irish & Black organizations have
raised the matter.
When NI was being set up, at first it was proposed to have a
single school system based on the previous (all-Ireland)
'National School' system, but the Catholic Church withdrew
when the Protestant Churches forced the inclusion of Bible
Study in the curriculum.
|
| 592.37 | | BOOKIE::DAVEY | | Tue Jun 20 1989 12:11 | 6 |
| re . 35
Even in England, they taught me how to spell.. but they never
taught me how to type.
John
|
| 592.38 | | BOOKIE::DAVEY | | Tue Jun 20 1989 13:45 | 36 |
| Re. 36
Yes, the NF is still around in Britain, though it is polling little
if any of the vote these days (not that it ever polled more than
a miniscule percentage anyway). Far, far less than, say, the Front
National in France or the extreme right-wing Republicans in Germany.
Things have indeed changed a lot since 1972. The 60s/70s was a period of
immigration from former British colonies, and there was a racist
backlash against this, especially when things started to go bad
with the economy in the early 70s. The National Front and British
Movement were two neo-Nazi movements to come out of this. It might
be true to say that their leaders came from the teaching profession, but
remember the NF were never a large force in British politics. Dangerous,
maybe, but never a large force. The NF was also never known for being
an intellectual movement; its rallies would be attended mostly by
skinheads in steel-capped boots and with Union Jacks draped round
them, chanting racist slogans.
In the late 70s, there were a few local skinhead thugs who used to
visit my school playground to give out NF leaflets, but they weren't
tolerated and were given short shrift by the teachers who found out
about them. Much of their literature falls foul of the Race Relations
Act of 1974, so it is far easier to deal with in the eyes of the
law than it was before the law was passed. Also, many of the ethnic
communities are more integrated in British society now, and are no
longer seen as 'foreigners' as they were when they first arrived.
I can't speak for the prisons, as I've never been there!
It doesn't surprise me that the Protestant churches forced the spilt
of the NI school system in the first place. The brand of Protestantism
alive in NI is hardly renowned for its liberal tolerance.
John
|
| 592.39 | | TOPDOC::AHERN | Dennis the Menace | Mon Jan 27 1992 13:40 | 3 |
| Channel 2, in the Boston area, will be showing a 60 minute program, "A
Day in the Life of Ireland" at 8:00 tonight.
|
| 592.40 | usually this kind of stuff is only run on 3rd week of March | WREATH::DROTTER | | Wed May 12 1993 12:15 | 13 |
| Channel 2 (Boston) and I assume other Public Television stations as
well have an all-Irish line-up tonight, (May 12, 1993)
8pm. "Mark Russell Comedy Special." The noted satirist/comedian visits
Dublin (Should be faily obvious why this city was picked ;^>) Galway,
(another good city to make fun of;^>) and, Blarney Castle. WHich is
of course, Cork's practical joke on the rest of Ireland. ;^>
9pm "Irish Homecoming". 5 Americans search for their roots in Ireland.
10pm. "Understanding Northern Ireland." AN analysis of the conflict
there. Doesn't give anymore info on this program. I just hope it's not
another Brit government propaganda flick.
|
| 592.41 | OK I guess | TALLIS::DARCY | | Thu May 13 1993 10:07 | 7 |
| The "Understanding Northern Ireland" show was fairly unbiased.
The only point of contention that I had was that the announcer
said that during WWII Ireland was stolidly neutral, but he failed
to mention that many, many southern Irish volunteers fought for
the British against the Germans...
/George
|
| 592.42 | | WREATH::DROTTER | | Thu May 13 1993 13:18 | 83 |
| Just as I feared: some snot-nosed Brit announcer trying to portray
the situation in Ireland as "two warring factions of "ahhland"
(don't you just adore the way Brits pronounce the word, "Ireland?!" I do!)
being seperated by the brave, stoic, Britain - whose forces just
coincidently may or *may not* have overreacted *at times*.
I must admit, the kid gloves were on for this one. Not the usual
heavy-handed crap the Brit media usually dishes out.
The *spin* was ever-so subtle. The almost impersonal delivery style
of the narrator was "good" - good for trying to cover up the
ever-so-slight delivered innacuracies. And, coupled with
what almost sounded like "admiration" when talking about Irish
nationalists like Bernadette Devlin or the nationalists actions
in the ghettos of West Belfast or Derry, (which in reality was
just the lack of the usual disparaging remarks that accompany Brit
narratives), it could almost pass for *unbiased reporting.*
For example, the coverage of the Bloody Sunday murders by the
Paras is usually portrayed by the Brit media as "Bully for our
side, the blighters got what they deserved." Here, it was a mono-toned
delivery of the basic facts - with one exception. Did you catch how
at the beginning of the description of when the Paras moved in, the
announcer said (paraphrasing): "this was a "usual" riot in Derry,
stones, bricks, bottles, followed by a reply of CS gas, rubber bullets
and water cannon. However, on this day things were different. blah,
blah, blah, and then the fatal shot was fired."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
An ever-so-slight BIG LIE delivered with such subtle innuendo.
The Paras, trying to cover-up their unbridled murder of 13/14 unarmed
civilians on Bloody Sunday all claimed to have heard a shot fired at
them by the IRA. Of course, no one including all the media covering the
march that day never heard anything. And too, last year, some of the
Paras involved in the Bloody Sunday massacre seem to be coming unglued
over what they did that day, were filmed in profile to hide their identity,
virtually confessed to that story being a hoax.
Clever huh?! Not really, just a really smooth way of the typical Brit
version of things, ie blaming the victim.
[BTW, Major recently nixed a re-opening of that biggest piece of lying
Brit cover-up, the Widgery Tribunal. Yes, he admits the paras killed
unarmed civilians that day, yes, the Widgery Tribunal was a complete
dirty Brit cover-up, NO, we won't re-open the investigation.
Case closed, Brit murderers walk the streets - free, and Gen. Ford gets
to keep his OBE.]
The rest of this very smooth propaganda was pock-marked with this kind of
"big lie glossed-over with glib tongue."
re: .41
<The "Understanding Northern Ireland" show was fairly unbiased.
As I pointed out above, the kid gloves were on for this one. similar to
the difference between "skim milk" (no fat) and "low-fat milk" (2%
fat), this program had an unusually low "Big Lie" content - for a Brit
program. But make no mistake about it, they were there.
As a matter of fact, George, the example you gave is a case in point:
The narrator said, "that during WWII Ireland was stolidly neutral".
The subtle spin was the use of the adverb "stolidly." Check it out.
Just because Ireland didn't want to get involved in Britain's war,
they're called "stolidly neutral." Because Ireland didn't want to get
involved in Britain's war with Germany, because it wanted to remain
neutral, it was described as "having or expressing little or no
sensibility; impassive; unresponsive to what might normally excite
interest or emotion."
Ireland was G.D. neutral. Nothing more, nothing less.
But typicaql of the Brits, when talking about Ireland, the word "stolid"
is applied. If the program were about Switzerland or Sweden, you can bet
the word "stolidly" would NOT be there.
And of course, as you aptly pointed out, they fail completely
(let's be blunt: deliberately) to point out how many, many southern
Irish volunteers fought for the British against the Germans.
Calling the program "fairly unbiased" is too much. Let's just say it
was "less dishonest" than usual.
|
| 592.43 | | KOALA::HOLOHAN | | Thu May 13 1993 13:20 | 7 |
|
George,
In all fairness you can't really blame them for
that mistake. The mistake of fighting for the
British that is ;-)
Mark
|
| 592.44 | | BONKIN::BOYLE | Tony. Melbourne, Australia | Thu May 13 1993 22:49 | 21 |
| RE <<< Note 592.42 by WREATH::DROTTER >>>
>..............................................many southern
>Irish volunteers fought for the British against the Germans.
Most men at that time fought against the Germans, rather than *for* the
British. There were 2 reasons.
1. They disagreed with what the Germans had done.
2. They had no work in Ireland and had little choice.
They joined the British army only because it was the closest army to
them that a) Paid money and b) fought against the Germans.
My father, like many Irishmen at the time, joined up. It took a lot for
him to swallow his pride and join an army who in the past had been
responsible for murdering his father in the streets of Dublin. His
dilemma was - join the British army or see his family starve.
Most Irishmen did not wait around at the end of the war for their medals.
They just took the money and ran.
|