Conference tallis::celt

 Wang - Plans to sell or close its Stirling, Scotland facility
	{The Wall Street Journal, 27-Jun-89, p. C21}
   Wang said its plan was to consolidate the personal-computer site's capacity
 by Sept. 30 into a larger facility in Limerick, Ireland, which will then have
 all of Wang's European manufacturing capacity. Wang also said it would
 announce "additional restructuring actions" in the next few weeks, but
 wouldn't elaborate. Wang said it hopes to sell the Stirling plant as an
 operating facility with the 239 employees in place; failing a sale, they would
 be out of a job in Stirling, but if the plant is shut, some of them will be
 offered jobs in Limerick, a spokesman said. 

 Apple - Plans to double size of Cork, Ireland, manufacturing plant
	{The Wall Street Journal, 26-Jun-89, p. B3} {MISG}
   Apple plans to double the size of its main manufacturing plan in Europe,
 said the Industrial Development Authority of Ireland. The agency, an arm of
 the Irish government, said here that Apple, "supported by IDA," will invest
 $60 million in upgrading the Cork, Ireland, plant. Apple couldn't be reached
 for comment.  {reprinted in its entirety}

    
    	This mail is probably directed more at the CELT noters based
    at home -
    
    	Ive been reading a lot recently about various new plants/plants
    expanding/ industries moving to etc etc Ireland... what is the REAL
    situation now with employment/unemployment in Ireland?  Will the
    new Financial Centre planned for Dublin - take off? - make any impact?
    - be as large as forecast????                                         
    
    	The unemployment figures dont seem to be going down AT ALL!?

        How will the "1990"/EEC (whoops EC!) regulations etc impact a small
    POOR country like Ireland??
                                                                    
    	Is there a light at the end of the tunnel (other than a train!)
    for the mess Ireland is in Employment-wise?
    
    	Ann
    

    It is dropping ever so slightly due to expansion especially in
    construction and commerce.
    But the sheer scale of the problem is not helped by the relatively
    high birth rate ,double th E.C average,and high taxes, which stunt
    effective job creation here
    Galway is not as badly effected as the rest of Ireland but there
    is still 5000 unemployed in the city alone(pop.40000).
    Jobs being created tend to be temporary in nature and often demand
    a high level of education,beyond the reach of most people here.
    Traditional forms of employment such as health and education are
    badly effected by a public service recruitment embargo and also
    by cutbacks in these areas.Teachers and Doctors are the worst effected
    and most have to emigrate.
    As unemployment has increased the popular public perception of blaming
    the unemployed for their predicament has all but dissappeared,but
    there is still widespread resistance to increasing public assistance
    because of high rates of personal income tax.
    It looks like a very long road ahead with a European solution being
    the only hope..............
    
    

    As a further item to -1,todays Irish papers cary a report from the
    republics Economic Social Research Institute detailing:-
    	o   Growth rates of 5% p.a to 1994.
    	o   80000 new jobs to 1994 and emigration "tumbling".
    	0   Inflation peaking at 5%.
    	0   The countrys debt dropping by 40% and the annual budget
    		moving into surplus.
    The report looks good from an economic point of view,for those in
    jobs but there will still be 13% unemployed in 1994.
    It now remains to be seen if the people will restrain wage and govt.
    spending demands as restraint is necessary in both to get rid of
    unemployment in the long run.Or will they be stupid enough to repeat
    the debacle of the 1970s................
    			The Galway Blazer.
    

            o   80000 new jobs to 1994 and emigration "tumbling".
    	
    	>>> any idea WHERE/HOW these 80,000 new jobs will be created?
    
            0   Inflation peaking at 5%.
            
    	>>> Whats inflation run at now?
    
            0   The countrys debt dropping by 40% and the annual budget
    		moving into surplus.
            
    	>>> again, whats the national deficit like?

                    It now remains to be seen if the people will restrain
    	            wage and govt. spending demands as restraint is
                    necessary in both to get rid of

    	>>> Human nature being what it is can you honestly see this
            happen??
    
    	Ann

    
    	p.s. to .5
    
    	You said in your mail that the forcast is for 13% unemployment
    	in 1994 - whats the rate of employment @ now?  
    	You said also that the BIRTH RATE is DOUBLE the rate of the
    	rest of Europe - is there anything going on in Ireland to try
    	to get these figures down?  Is there any 'awareness' of this
    	whole issue there at all?  or is it even seen as an issue??
    
    	Ann 

    1.	I.D.A predictions are for 30000 new jobs each year to 1992,this
    is gross  job creation and does not account for losses due to
    restructuring for single E.C market.
    
    2. inflation last year reached a low of 2.8% it is now 4% mainly
    due to housing price increases and rises due to Britains higher
    rate of inflation.
    Interest rates here are currently around 9% for long term loans
    		-much lower than Britain.
    3. National deficit figure (total debt) is �27 billion.
    Only last night a news article report 6 month borrowing requirement
    (yes, we are still borrowing!!!!!!!!!!) of �500M and an annual
    projection of �900M,this will be the first time that E.B.R will be
    under �1 billion.
           
    4.In a country that votes mainly conservative (74%),with a compliant 
    	Trade Union movement (so far) and with such widespread knowledge
    	of the problem it may work........
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			I HOPE......!!!!!!
    

    Ireland is among the last bastions of "Catholic philosopy" ie.
    have as many kids as you like and to hell with the rest of society.
    Contraception was illegal here until 10 years ago .
    A noted incedent of the 60s was the Contraception Train  Protest
    when a group of Dublin feminists went by train to Belfast (N.I)
    and purchased contraceptives for personal import into the south.
    That was ILLEGAL at the time.Todays law still restricts the
    availability of contraceptives to an inordinate degree.
    Only the AIDS crises prompted Govt. to introduce freer availability
    of condoms to single people.
    Even today they are only available in pharmacies
    at inflated prices. Some rural chemists refuse to stock them on
    "moral" grounds with consequent difficulty to those in their
    communities who wish to exercise a basic human right.
    As a result the birth rate in Ireland was very high in the 50s and
    60s (5,6 children per family was common 7 to 8 was not remarkable).
    Thankfully this has now changed as law enforcement is lax in this
    area but they are still difficulties in rural areas.
    Worst affected  are the poor who receive no govt. support for 
    family planning!!!!!!!! Only the well-off, who can afford kids anyway ,
    can afford the choice of not having them.
    Social Welfare does not stretch to Food and Clothes not mind "Luxury"
    items like contraception.
    They are classed as a luxury for V.A.T purposes!!!!!!!
    It is therefore not unusual to have large families on the dole.
    Large,rich families are very scarce.
    
                                                                      

    It all comes out in the wash......while the birthrate in Europe
    has fallen, Ireland's continues to flourish. In the 90's there
    will be a serious shortfall of available workers in Germany, 
    Holland, etc. Simple solution, the Irish will be commuting 
    to Europe to work, home for the w/ends etc. My advice, start 
    learning German asap.......This be the truth.
    
                   Murphy, who knows.....
                        
                      

    This is EXACTLY what is being planned at the moment.
    Traditionally Ireland,like a lot of other island nations,allowed
    its surplus population abroad for economic reasons but also for
    improved opportunities,in research and advanced education,for example
    one can only go so far on an island of 3.5 million people before
    one goes abroad.this is natural and acceptable.
    Todays version of emigration rancours the Irish because we have
    nobody but ourselves to blame for it,we were in control of our own
    affairs since 1922 and have not solved a problem traditionally
    blamed on our traditional enemy,the British.
    It has been referred to as "economic extradition","bleeding the
    lifeblood of our nation" and other such emotive stuff,but no 
    scientific study of future consequences has been made.
    One obvious consequence is an increase in the dependancy ratio,
    ie. ratio of workers to non-workers.As this increases taxation
    will increase to support them.This will make more workers
    leave the country,which will increase the ratio.....increase the
    taxes etc.                                 
    At the moment a plan is in place to increase the Language content
    in our Schools and colleges.This will allow us to relace the
    traditional destinations,U.S Australia,with E.C.
    A lot of emigrants today go to the states,where they are "illegal"
    they are cosequently treated like s##t,underpaid and given the most
    menial jobs even though qualified for something much better.
    In contrast E.C rules protect workers just like their own country
    they have a higher standard of living ,all that is missing is the
    Language.Ironically our present-day standard of languages is the
    lowest in Europe.I think we spend to much time(12%) learning Irish
    and other useless stuff.(History Literature etc.)........
     
    

    Other useless stuff.....history, litriture?????......GOOD GRIEF!!!!!
    
    

    
           "Will someone rid me of this turbulent priest?"
                                                    W.shake..
    
    In Ireland education is dominated by the Catholic establishment
    which places great emphasis on the Humanities,ie. History,Arts etc.
    The job opportunities in those fields are very few to say the least,
    ask any actor.The English A levels in Maths is 1 year ahead of our
    equivalent Leaving Cert Honours Maths course.
    Science in ireland is also neglected esp. practical engineering
    aspects of same.
    The education system may teach you Irish (spoken by only 100,000
    people here out of a total pop. of 3.5 million.) but we must rely
    on outside sources(family friends etc.) to teach us how to drive or
    maintain a car!!!!.A report from England expressed regret that 
    employers in England could not hire some Irish graduates for 
    senior building (engineering) posts in spite if their 
    excellent qualifications because they could not drive!!!  
    As to History only  the Irish version was thought in schools until
    recently ie. an endless tirade of abuse against the Invader which
    was so one-sided as to be tragic for the number of minds it
    corrupted into blind hatred of the English and may have led to
    the troubles in the North.
    Even today access to Science/engineering is very limited,esp.
    for girls,and accounts in some way for the scandalous disparity
    in incomes between men and women.
    Looked at another way we are throwing away half our potentially
    available workforce in slavish devotion to an outdated education
    system when we can least afford it.
    Ireland must now put all its resources into practical relevant
    courses that give at least a fair chance of employment.
    Shakespeare is fine but let him wait until our backs are off the
    wall and our bellies are full........
                                                           
    P.S I am O.K but 1million (unemployed+wives+kids) are not!!
    				Galway Blazer
    
    
    

    Emigration is a complex subject.  But I would think that on the whole
    Irish emigrants do OK in the US.  First off, they are treated socially
    much better than if they were in Europe.  There is no stigma attached
    with Irishness here in the US.  You are what you are.
    
    Several bills have also been passed in Congress and the US has granted
    more citizenship to those people of the "root countries" Ireland,
    Italy, etc...  Many of my Irish friends have recently acquired their green
    cards this way.
    
    I would agree though that many of the skilled workers are taking
    menial jobs than they would otherwise.  On the same token, the more
    imaginative emigirants will find ways around the "legal" problems and
    those are the ones that really prosper here.
    
    On a pay scale it's all a tradeoff.  An emigrant working as a nanny
    makes on the scale of US$200 per week, no tax, free room and board,
    and usually a car.  So that would be equivalent to someone making
    about US$500 per week ($26,000) without all the extras.  Remember
    that apartments cost about $600-$800 per month in the greater Boston
    area. Construction workers pull in anywhere from $8 to $20 an hour,
    depending on how skilled, and again usually non taxed.  Incidentally,
    some Irish don't want to become "legal" because they eventually
    want to return to Ireland and they don't want to pay taxes.

    RE:.14
    
    When they acquire their Green Card they are back taxed for all the
    years they haven't paid tax !
    
    Gerry

    re .10 "In the 90's there will be a serious shortfall of available
    workers in Germany ....
    
    It is hard to see this: the west German Employment Agency
    (Bundesanstalt fuer Arbeit) has issued a study which predicts between
    3.5 and 6.5 million unemployed by 1995 in the Federal Republic.
    The coming slump in the auto industry will hit West Germany badly
    as the car workers are well organised and well paid - the metal
    workers union has 2,7 Million members and is the biggest in the
    world. 
    
    With around 27 Million unemployed between the USA and Europe it
    is a question of time before countries on the european fringe like
    Ireland can no longer export their unemployment. 
    
    Its not the education system or public spending which is the problem,
    it is the tendency to overproduction and slump und capitalism that
    is the cause.
    -Kevin Mannerings @FRS   

    
    	There are a few issues here I think:
    
    	re: 12% time spent in school spend learning Irish
    
    	- Is this a waste of time?????
    	I have two points of view on this - conflicting views! - learning
    	Irish instills a feeling of the uniqueness of being Irish, its
    	a part of our culture, if we dont teach it, the language will
    	die - and part of our heritage with it... On the other hand,
    	as you say 100K people speak Irish - the huge majority of these
    	being in the Gaeltacht areas, - the language is of no practical
    	use to kids today - those living outside the gaeltacht put up
    	with it because its a compulsory subject - its forgotten as
    	soon as they finish 6th year - and is never used outside school
    	anyway... is it worth spending 12% of school time on a subject
    	that is NEVER used, will never be applied, when the time could
    	be spent on more 'valuable' subjects??  
    
    	I think the 'blind hatred' of England/English is now a thing
    	of the past??? Isnt it???!
    
      	Whats happened to the myth "Ireland of the saints and Scholars"??
    	- our MATHS course is now behind Englands?? - Ive always believed
    	that the Irish education system is superior to the majority
    	of European countries - I firmly believe its far superior to
    	that of the US education system.  Why havent the schools and
    	pupils of Ireland caught up with the rest of the world - why
    	do girl students still have problems accessing the traditionally
    	male subjects?? (Engineering etc etc)
    
    	A LOT of the problems Ireland is having can be blamed directly
    	on the Irish and their lousy 'poor-mouthed' attitude - blaming
    	their problems on everyone else and 'expecting' a handout from
    	other countries just because its IRELAND is just not cutting	
    	it anymore!!!
                                             
    	Why do we HAVE TO export our educated youth??
    	Why does Ireland HAVE TO be a 'dead end' with its 3.5 million
    	people??  
        
    
    	<FLAME ON>
                            
    	I cant believe that the average Joe Shmoe (i.e. the un-rich	
    	average person) is willing/prepared to PUT UP with the situation
    	around Contraception in Ireland ... I dont agree that contraception
    	is a LUXURY item - hey, come on, if you dont want to get pregnant
    	you go out and pay for contraceptives!!  It IS possible to get
    	a prescription from (just about) any doctor... this is the 20th
    	century - even in Rural Ireland there is a large town close
    	by - even if the english say we cant drive!!! 8-}   I will grant
    	you to that those on Social Security contraception is possibly
    	in the luxury price range - but hey! If I have to do without
    	a pack of fags a week so that I can get contraceptives so that
    	I wont have another mouth to feed Ill do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    	Apologies if Im stepping on any toes here, but the Irish are
    	their own worst enemies sometimes!  Are there no plans/proposals
    	`in Ireland to try to make contraception free to the Poor? (which
    	is what any family on social security is afterall!)  
    
    	<flame off>
    	
    	Comments on being Irish here and the whole 'illegal' scene Ill
    	leave to another discussion!!
                                                              
    	Ann_prepared_to_take_the_Flack!!
    
    	

    	re .17
    
    	I have to agree with a couple of points in the previous note,
    namely the educational system in Ireland.  From what I know of the
    Irish system (admittedly very little), I am impressed, or at least
    was impressed, when I lived there from '80 - '82, with the level
    of knowledge of students up to the high school level.  Vocabulary
    and grammar of most children I ran into there was far superior to
    that of theior American counterparts.  General knowledge, IMHO,
    was also better than the average American student of the same age/grade
    level.  As an example, I gave a brief class on Computer Science
    to a class of "high school" girls preparing for their Leaving Cert
    (is that correct terminology?) and when I finished and let the Q
    & A period happen, I was taken aback by the intelligence and depth
    of some of the questions I was deluged with.  Having done a similar
    class here in the States to high-school level students, I saw a
    great difference in comprehension, or at the very least INTEREST,
    between them and these young Irish ladies.
    
    As far as the Irish language is concerned, 12% is hardly a waste
    of time.  You could as easily claim that History, or Philosophy,
    or any foreign language would be a waste of time.  Anything dealing
    with Irish culture and heritage is certainly something worth preserving
    and, indeed, encouraging!  Applicable or not, it is still a vital
    link with the traditions and history that are Ireland, and as such
    (I feel) should be a required subject for Irish students.  Again,
    just my opinion.
    
    On the contraception issue, it would make sense from a fiscal
    standpoint for the government to subsidise free contraception to
    families on the social welfare rolls, however the ever present
    influence of the Catholic Church plays a very large (too large!)
    part in the policies of the government, and the controversy involved
    in doling out contraceptives would, I fear, prove too detrimental
    to many a public figure, and therefore would not be risked by the
    majority.  Unless, of course, the situation has drastically changed
    in the past 7 years when I was living there last.  Until the majority
    public opinion is willing to go against Catholic doctrine of no
    contraception, I feel this is an academic discussion only.
    
    Nobody asked, just my opinion.
    
    	McQ.
   

    Regarding education in Ireland.....the problems are due to a 
    combination of circumstances.....the country is still growing
    up.....our parents who didn't have the oppertunity of going to
    school much past 14/16 years old.....firmly believed that their
    educating their children was to be the solution....they'd never
    have to face the same problems/embarrassments that they had to
    ......menial jobs/bad pay/no respect etc. Hence the firm belief
    in the academic.....But things changed so rapidly in the last 
    20-30 years.....the need for teachers declined (teaching was always
    some kind of special occupation, in with the priests etc.). The
    need for plummers, carpenters, electricians & engineers soared,
    and paid much better.....technical education, originally for
    the less intelligent, was now more & more desirable, but required
    a major change of thinking/outlook. (by parents/irish society).
    The biggest problenm arose when the economy hit the floor......the
    first casualties always being education, health & welfare. 
    Irish children seem to have a good, well rounded education, jacks
    of all intrests, but MASTERS OF NONE......no specialisation, which
    I think is more the goal here in the states.....hence the perception
    of the US education being inferior.....not exactly the truth......what
    we need is a combination of both.....specialisation with rounding,
    and I don't believe that these are mutually exclusive. But when
    the economies are shot, and in America, I guess the attitude is
    more "you get it if you can pay for it", experimentation in this
    field stagnates without the funding, so every one sticks with what
    they have "for now", except that "for now" in the Irish context
    is moving towards it's twentieth year. The damage is going to be
    felt in the future.....when you go into a classroom & find English
    being taught from the very same books (remember english 1,2,& 3
    prose, poetry & short stories), God they were boring 25-30 years
    ago, to go back and "encourage motivation" after all these years,
    very disheartening. There is more movement towards the sciences
    in many schools today, but imagine what might be if the cutbacks
    were elsewhere. 
    
    Will continue later......must go.
    
             M.

             
    	RE .18   Attached are some points that I AGREE WITH as
    	being the major causes for the ridiculous (for the 1980's)
    	situation in Ireland around contraception, the growth in
    	population (the only country in Europe!) in Ireland - Ireland
    	is one of the poorer country in Europe, with one of the highest
    	unemployment rates WHY WHY WHY is its population on the rise?!?!
    	
    
>>>    On the contraception issue, it would make sense from a fiscal
>>>    standpoint for the government to subsidise free contraception to
>>>    families on the social welfare rolls, however the ever present
>>>    influence of the Catholic Church plays a very large (too large!)
>>>    part in the policies of the government, and the controversy involved
>>>    in doling out contraceptives would, I fear, prove too detrimental
>>>    to many a public figure, and therefore would not be risked by the
>>>    majority.    	
>>>
>>>    Until the majority
>>>    public opinion is willing to go against Catholic doctrine of no
>>>    contraception, I feel this is an academic discussion only.           
   
    	Another point - will(/why?) the CATHOLIC CHURCH continue to have such
    	'control' in Ireland? - Im not saying this is all BAD - but until the
    	church (and the often PREHISTORIC-MINDED Priests etc. in Ireland) 
    	gets up to date with so many of its laws/rulings/doctrines on
    	social issues, the laws on contraception in Ireland will never
    	change... cant the Irish people see this - isnt anything being
    	done about this - is it even an issue there?
    
    	Ann_looking_foward_to_going_home_in_August!
    	
    

    I see a lot of disbelief out there re. contraception  but those
    who have stated the way things are are not kidding,I speak as a
    native born all my life here in Galway and should know.
    A year ago a T.V documentary on poverty in Ireland touched on the subject.
    A woman whose husband was unemployed for five years was being
    interviewed,she had 4 kids two of whom were born after her husband
    lost his job.The interviewer asked her why she went on and had the
    extra two kids when she knew well things were hard enough with 
    the first two to contend with. 
    Her reply was:-
    		1.It was none of his business anyway how many she had.
    		2.Council Housing would be available with 4 kids,the
    more you have the better your chances.
    This epitomises the attitude among the Welfare classes.
    Until the state gets involved in family planning there is no
    end in sight of our unemployment problem.Control of spending in
    this area is impossible with this attitude.
    At the risk of causing offence to feminists another little item
    of info there is an unmarried mother with 10 (ten!!!) children
    in Ireland ,2 with 9 and several with 8,7,6 etc.
    What I would like to ask is:-
    			where are the husbands?
    			what is being done to educate these women?
    			Who is fooling who?(unmarried mothers recieve
    more than if they were married and the fathers admitted liability).
    I got this info from a newspaper report of a document released every
    year by the dept. of Social Welfare.It is over a year old the situation
    today must be worse.
    One last question:-
    		When will people be made responsible for their own lives???
    
    
    

Re -.1
    

>        At the risk of causing offence to feminists 

    	Count yourself lucky that I'm not a feminist, because if I was
    I could cut your note to shreds.......
    
>    What I would like to ask is:-
>    			where are the husbands?
    Why ? 
    
>    			what is being done to educate these women?

    Educate them in what ? Is a woman not entitled to have a child if she 
    wants to, whether she be married or not ? If indeed some form of
    education is required then why do you single out the woman ? Should
    the men not be educated too ? Is it because of the traditional
    attitude that it's up to the woman to ensure that she doesn't get
    pregnant ? 
    
>   and the fathers admitted liability).

    A strange choice of words..........
    
	- Robin...... (an unmarried father)
    

    It is the state (ie. the general taxpayer) who is supporting these
    people.I have absolutely no objection to them having children in
    or out of wedlock as long as they take full responsibility for them.
    It is the taxpayer who is paying the tune and will continue to do
    so.
    There is currently very little done here to get the fathers to pay
    support to their dependants.I don't expect a single mother to be
    able to support herself but the fathers should be well able to.
    I hate the current situation where responsible people like myself
    who abstain from any contact to avoid the dangers of unplanned
    children are FLEECED in tax to support those who haven't the 
    self-control to do like-wise.
    People like me have been silent long enough and given the stage
    over to "free sex " liberals ,the permissive elements who started
    the whole thing in the sixties.In truth there is no such thing ass
    free sex .Someone has to pay for the consequences and this should
    be emphasised much more than currently.
    Last year in California,I think, a school had a programme of
    life-skills education where the children were given a doll.
    The rules were that the doll had to be minded just like a real child,
    they suddenly experienced the lack of freedom that child minding
    entails.Their attitudes to early marriage or sex changed radically
    after this experience.Far more education is needed in this area
    to warn people off unplanned unprovided-for relationships that 
    hurt EVERYONE in society.

    
    re.21
    
    ...I can hardly believe someone could write that.
                         
    Fully agree with Robbie in the last note.
    Of course Sex Eduaction is necessary  for BOTH womwn and men. However
    its not up to you and I to tell anyone how many kids they can have.
    
    >This epitomises the attitude among the Welfare Classes
    
    ...Are you for real!!!!!...Possibly some people find themselves
    better off Financially when on Social Welfare.. such a generalisation
    suggests you simply dont know what your talking about...worse it
    smacks of class elitism..I KNOW how much alot of Welfare people
    can suffer and the conditions they have to live in..Sure keep
    to your TV Documentaries while you sit back and have your good
    food etc....That will tell you the true story!!!!!!!! 
    
     Mick
    

    
    
    Wake up to the facts:-                  
    
    
    	The world population is increasing geometrically while the
    necessary resources are at best only rising linearily.
    Ireland will end up like Africa ,South America,and parts of
    Asia if we don't control population NOW.
    
    One way of getting resources in most countries would be to slow
    down or better still stop spending on arms etc.
    This option is not open for Ireland as we spend very little on
    them.We are already at rock-bottom as regards funds for Welfare
    etc. because we have a very high dependancy ratio,very little natural
    resources(no north sea oil or its equivalent) so any money spent
    has to be raised in taxes.
    
    We currently have the dearest petrol,cars,drink,goods etc. in Europe
    because of taxes.Our income tax is also very high.Those on over
    c.16000 pounds a year get no free medical aid at all,so have to
    take out insurance to protect themselves.All welfare handouts are
    severely means-tested so people are not inclined to work their way
    out of their predicament.
    My whole point is this, up to now it has been taboo in western society
    to talk of controlling population by external (ie. state) means
    but this may be the only option left to us if voluntary means are
    not tried now.(As is the case in China where couples are allowed
    only one child to stem the rapidly increasing population.)
    In former days it was illegal to perform autopsies in order to 
    research for medical reasons,countless millions died because of
    this stupid rule.Only when research began in the Rennaissance
    Period did some control over disease evolve.
    There must now be some coherent control over population in this
    country or we all suffer.This can be voluntary if we act now
    otherwise some war will handle it very nicely for us as they have
    done before down the ages.
    I dont blame the social welfare recipients nor do I attack them
    but I attack a system which condemns them to perpetual ignorance
    and dependancy because they did not know the consequence
    of their actions.People must now be told that immature irresponsible
    acts such as premarital relations without the proper precautions
    will condemn them to perpetual poverty unless proper plans are made
    to provide for the inevitable offspring.  
    In short the system must be subordinate to the general publics
    ability to pay.
    

    >.25
    
    No one is arguing that the system is perfect as it is..But in all
    seriousness...to give an example from China!!!!!..
    
    You will also have to agree I hope that the 'system' as you refer
    to is dictated to not only by the state but by the Catholic Church.
    You paint a picture of Social Welfare recipents as people who should
    be told by us "responsible" workers what they should do with their
    own lives...They have anough troubles as it is !!!
    
    >The system should be subordinate to the general publics ability
    > to pay!!!
    
    .......To pay for what????......And what happens those who suffer
    misfortune and the "system" has run out of Money...
    

    I'm sure most of the other celt file readers will join with 
    me in offering our deepest symyathy and condolences with your 
    suffering. Such a sad sad case.
    
    Apart from being one of the most pompus, obnoxious and, from the
    feel of your writing, frustrated people I've ever seen open their
    mouths in public, you're a sexist neanderthal. (nothing personal).
    
    The sex education that you recommend has been absent in Ireland
    because noone will accept the responsibility. The God-almighty
    catholic church doesn't approve, sex is for reproduction ONLY,
    and if these children are informed, it follows logically that
    they are going to go out and experiment. The majority of parents,
    who never had any sex education themselves, are generally too
    bashful to speak to their children and prefer to leave it to the
    schools and street corners. The school approach tends to be rather
    technical, in the biological sense, this is where it goes and this
    is what happens, no questions...good. 
    
    The idea of any of the above delving into such issues as sexuality,
    sex as pleasure, orgasm, masturbation (male or female), homosexuality
    and lesbianism, contraception, abortion, responsibility etc. etc. seems
    a little remote to say the least. At least today there are plenty
    of books available that do explore these subjects, but you have
    to be intrested/know enough to be curious, then go and read it.
    (unfortunately doesn't apply to many). 
    
    Obviously the responsibility is the parents, but ours were victims
    of their circumstances and a large percentage are uncomfortable
    with the subject even between themselves, not to mention being
    forthcoming on topics alien to them.
    
    The permissive elements of the sixties that you condemn for starting
    this robbing of your paycheck, I applaud for removing the taboo
    and hopefully the parents of our generation will display more
    love/respect for their children by not leaving them to flounder
    in the dark, developing unneeded neuropses over a subject as natural
    as life itself.
    
    Please reread your notes and if many of your statements don't make
    your stomach sick.....you've got a problem. 
    
    (Must go....will be back).
    
                       Kevin.                                                            
    

    
    	.21 has made a LOT of VALID points - I dont know if a lot of
    you who are so upset with him are FROM Ireland but look at a few
    things here: 
    
    	If you are from Ireland you will KNOW what the extent of the
    problem around unemployment/ those on welfare REALLY is... I come
    from a town that has HUGE (I mean 1 in 3 and climbing)
    unemployment...yet the POPULATION of that town is GROWING - the
    number of people in this town on the DOLE, those on WELFARE is HUGE.
    Now Im NOT objecting to these people in any way, but let me tell
    you a story....
    
    	There is a section of this town that being always a 'rough'
    area, being habitated by 'poor' people - since the estate was built
    in the 20's.  The very large majority of people in this area have
    always been on welfare.  I know this area very well because I have
    friends who came from there and I live pretty near  it... There are
    about 50 houses in this housing estate - I can go thru all of those
    houses & if memory serves me correctly of those 50, approx 40 of them
    were on welfare, the fathers, older sons have NEVER worked (this
    may be a social issue - as in where a person is FROM determines
    whether or not he gets a job but lets leave that one aside for now)
    there are >10 <24 CHILDREN in EACH OF THOSE FAMILIES!!!! (A favourite
    game of ours was in the summer time to be standing at the street
    corner on a sunday night when the pubs closed to see all the drunk
    mothers and fathers going home with bags of fish and chips to the
    estate...) the Children of these families for the MOST part by the
    time they were 16 or so, were either pregnant, married, gone to
    england, living in other 'poor' areas of town... NONE of the kids
    from that area that I know ever got any further than 6th year secondary
    school - the majority didnt get to 6th class primary.  THERE IS
    SOMETHING VERY WRONG HERE... the children of these parents who 
    have so many kids, happy  because the welfare would go up too,are
    the ones who suffer!!! What do you do when you are a married woman
    and  know nothing about contraception - dont give me that s**t about
    it being a mans responsibility - the people in that area - the parents-
    didnt know anything about EQUAL RIGHTS - sex meant babies, which
    was the womans work/life/responsibility - and thats the way it was!
    the sad thing is I dont know/thing that its changing either...
    
    	One of my best friends when I was a kid came from there. Maureen
    wasnt very bright at school, she dropped out in 5th CLASS - I saw
    her last xmas when I was home - shes the same age as me - 26 - shes
    been married since she was 16, she has - AT AGE 26 - SEVEN CHILDREN
    - ages 1,2,3,4,5,7,8, has had 2 miscarraiges... she looks like shes
    40 years old - we went out for a drink:  We talked - she says that
    she has a husband who beats the crap out of her whenever he feels
    like it,but she doesnt mind this - her mother and most of her sisters
    have put up with the same.  Hes never worked either,  he doesnt mind
    this though, because his father and brothers have never worked either
    - he has never looked for a job! SHE SAYS that coming from that area
    (I dont want to mention names) what other kind of life could she
    have - shes never worked, things that a woman loves to have, shes
    never had, she can count the number of times shes been outside the
    town - in her life!!! - she is very bitter about her whole 
    existance/situation and whats worse - she knows that her children will 
    have the EXACT kind of life and the cycle will go on and on and on and on.
                                                         
    This is what needs to be addressed!  People who have spent their lives
    on welfare, cannot get out of the treadmill that they are on!  For
    example young people from Ballymun housing estate cannot get
    interviewed for a job because of their home address, and their accent
    - so they go on the DOLE, the circle goes on...  I worked one summer
    with an organisation that provided counselling in Sean McDermott
    street  area - the lack of self-respect, and self-advancement in
    some of those people, because the could see 'no point in trying,
    was just incredible - for the simple reason, that the effort of
    pulling themselves out of the situation was too much...
                                            
    The point of all this - I dunno!  Education for people who have
    no hope is pointless.  Jobs mean hope... get them jobs!!  
    
    	There is always the ones who will refuse jobs/the chance because 
    they are happy to remain on WELFARE and then the issue of those
    who dont/wont because of the income tax they will be 'better off' on 
    welfare than working... someone I know whose got three kids, was
    out of work for years after being made redundant, was happy when
    I met him last summer to be working - when I met him at xmas he
    told me he had to give up the job because he couldnt make ends meet
    and was getting more money on welfare than after tax when working!!!
    but lets leave  that too to another conversation
    
    	Ann_depressed_after_ALL_that... (sigh)
    	

>        friends who came from there and I live pretty near  it... There are
>    about 50 houses in this housing estate - I can go thru all of those
>    houses & if memory serves me correctly of those 50, approx 40 of them
>    were on welfare, the fathers, older sons have NEVER worked (this
>    may be a social issue - as in where a person is FROM determines
>    whether or not he gets a job but lets leave that one aside for now)
>    there are >10 <24 CHILDREN in EACH OF THOSE FAMILIES!!!! (A favourite

    So Ann your saying there's an estate with 50 families and between
    500 and 1200 children.............
    
    I'm sorry but I for one can't believe that. Please prove me wrong.
    
>        and  know nothing about contraception - dont give me that s**t about
>    it being a mans responsibility - the people in that area - the parents-

	I'm not saying it's solely a mans responsibility, maybe it's
    not even equal responsibility, but as long as the attitude prevails
    that its womens business then things won't change. That unfortunately
    is the case in rural Ireland.
    Both you and John who I presume are reasonably educated, at least,
    are still maintaining that its the women job (contraception etc.) and that
    they are the ones that need education, that makes me sad.
        
    Yes I am from Ireland born and bred. I left when I was 23 (6 years
    ago) for various reasons (so have my 4 other brothers and sisters).
    Forget about tax etc. I'll not be going back if I've to put up with
    the ridiculously narrow-minded attitudes I've been reading here over
    the past few days. Of course there are areas that are badly affected
    by unemployment, by bad housing, by poeple with attitude problems, by 
    lack of this that and the other, but this is the real world (1989). 
    Have a look at other countries and just compare. The Irish as a nation
    are not badly off. 
    
    Ireland is attracting jobs because of it's educated youth. The reason
    a lot of hitech is coming in is because of the skilled workforce
    available. Look at the balance sheet. People are investing in Ireland.
    Ask yourself why ? People are also leaving, yes, why not ? Not everyone
    that leaves has been forced to (there's 5 of us all volunteers!).
    Is it not a clear indication of how well people have been educated and
    prepared for life that they can get up and go to live/work in other
    countries ? If we were a nation of dumbos and didn't have the ability
    to go elsewhere then we'd be in trouble............ 
	
    	 - Robbie........
    

    I think .28 goes a bit over the top for abuse, and although I agree
    the opinions expressed by the man they havn't hung yet are a load
    of cobblers, he has a right to express them, he pays such a lot
    of taxes after all.
    
    Its depressing to read that the cause of unemployment and emigration
    is the permissive society, poor education and a lack of birth control.
    Individual behaviour is the cause of the problem and not the social
    system. Similar arguments were used during the Great Famine to refuse
    to provide emegency supplies to the starving although there was
    more than enough food to go round.
    Have to go, they are shutting down ...                             
    
    

Maybe before I WADE in here I should put on an asbestos suit, given
the heat of some of the replies.  Anyway....

At least part of the blame has to lay on the welfare system.  It's 
organized so that if you're on welfare, once you get ANY form of a
job you lose ALL welfare payments.  I know the amounts are not
high enough to sustain a reasonable standard of living, let's say
it's IR#100 per week for a family with 3 children, for example.
Problem is, if I get a job and I've been on welfare I'd have to make
IR#5,200 net, which is probably close to IR#8,400 before any
deductions are made.

Personally I believe it should be a graduated withdrawal from welfare.
If I had been getting IR#100 and I get a job that gives me IR#50
per week into my hand, then the welfare payments should be reduced to
IR#65 for example.  This gives me IR#115 per week, so it's worth my
while working AND I get a sense of self worth.  Plus some of my 
deductions go towards paying my own welfare costs.

Keep with the current system, and there aren't enough jobs that pay more
than 'the system' to get people off welfare.

I'm not going to get involved in the contraception issue.  From that point
of view, Ireland (Church, State, Educational  & Medical System and a lot of 
the people) are in the DARK AGES.  

Bernard - who's left and won't be going back in the near future....

    
    Not once did I apportion responsibility for birth control to men
    or women,I also believe that is a responsibility for all.
    To take a simple example,a lot of people boast about their conquests
    in the sexual arena when in fact nothing happened at all,peer 
    pressure may lead inmmature people to get their "share of the action"
    so to speak without any regard for the consequences.
    What may be humour in an adult,mature conversation may be misconstrued
    as cold facts by insecure people.A lot of people who end up in trouble
    said they thought everyone was at it because all their friends were
    talking of it.Only after the amazed shocks and stares do they realise
    the truth,that the jokes etc.were just that :jokes.  
    A guy I know got a girl he has happily since married pregnant outside
    marriage.I was sickened by the way all the "hard men" in the group
    retreated away from him when it happened.This may be small potatoes
    to some of you out there but in a small town in Ireland where everyone
    knows everybody elses business It was a harrowing experience for
    him.Two years later they were married once the internal difficulties
    too numerous to mention were settled,a place to live etc.
    With obvious due regard to privacy it is everyones responsibility
    to promote birth control and what used to be termed "sexual continance"
    ie. self control) in society.
    While 1200 children in 50 families must be apochryphal the underlying
    theme that is apparent is that families in those circumstances run
    back several generations.While nothing can be done to cut back on
    spending on those that already exist some future planning must be
    done to alleviate the situation in the future.
    The last note also mentioned child and wife battering,a recent study
    also showed this to be handed down from generation to generation.
    A T.V documentary about an abused daughter highlighted this when
    the victim discovered that her father the abuser was himself abused
    when he was young,it was only on this basis that she was able to
    forgive him,long after he was dead.Needless to say it was harrowing
    to watch.....
    When I mean education for living I mean it in a compassionate,private
    proffessional way.Such cousellors already exist but need more money
    to do their job right.It would be money well spent.

    Re:32
    Some time back Fine Gael proposed an income for all which would
    disregard whether the recpient was avaliable for work or not.
    Basically,everyone,regardless of income etc. would recieve a basic
    income on reaching 18 years of age.Childrens allowances would be
    expanded to cover their costs,given in trust to their parents.
    Gone would be any form of means testing for health social services
    etc.THis may mean higher taxes but everyone would be getting a return
    on their taxes and it would be bearable.
    In the present systam there is too much isolation between the different
    groups in society.Social Welfare has a stigma about it that would
    be eliminated if the basic income system was substituted for it.
    It would also allow people to work when the opportunity arises without
    fear of losing their welfare payments.
    In the present system a lot of time is spent tracking down "Welfare
    abusers" to deprive them of their payments when often the job 
    they are doing pays less,without the payment.These are called poverty
    traps in Ireland.Also full-time students do not get the dole in
    Ireland.I would have thought they were entitled to some support
    if they are making an earnest effort to get better qualifications 
    to get that precious job,but no .How the hell can anybody expect
    them to get work without education.Here in Ireland one must be
    available for work to get the dole,this rules out any 2nd
    or 3rd level education for many,but it is under review by the govt.
    at the moment,perhaps in 3 or 4 years time...........
    
    
    

    
   Note .32 
    
    Fully agree that the welfare payment system is a cause of alot of
    the problems. That sounds a fair idea about when one gets a job
    it should be worth its while. Welfare payments are bad in Ireland
    and when the protests get a bit vocal they are fed abit to shut
    them up. What about the availablility of free contraception and
    counseling for welfare recipents????????
    
    Eduaction is not made anyway easier for the poorer sections of the
    community either...Buying Books etc may be ok to some of us..but
    to others it can mean less food...And what about this effort at
    First Communions etc etc...I have a sister a primary school Teacher
    in Dublin where alot of the kids come from poorer backrounds..Do
    you know whats they worst thing for her??...Kids comming to school
    hungery....and she talks to them and to the parents and they spell
    out the story of how they try and make ends meet..How are you going
    to eduactate people on empty stomachs!!!..What about a school meal
    system????As for third level eduaction...what chance have they got!!
    
    I believe also that the problem of child abuse etc is bad in Ireland.. 
    and that envirnoment is also a big factor...
     

    
    	Jeez, attack me over a typo!!  8-}
    
    	correction to .29:
    
    >  houses & if memory serves me correctly of those 50, approx 40 of them
    .......
    >  there are >10 <24 CHILDREN in EACH OF THOSE FAMILIES!!!! (A favourite

    	should read 
    
    	"approx 40%  of them"
    
    	i.e. 40% of 50 families = 20 families with anything from 10
             to 24 kids - there were at least 3 families with 22, 23,
       	     and 24 kids in there - NOT an exaggeration, maybe I didnt
    	     explain that clear enuf
                                                        
         Im a woman - if *I* dont want to get pregnant/have any more
    kids ***I*** DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!  Its MY body!  If I know I cant
    support > n kids where 'n' is the number I have now, I consider
    it ultimately MY respobsibility to ensure that I dont have any more!
    Whether or not that responsibility is ensuring that my husband takes
    precautions or I do to prevent conception - its still MY responsibility!
    Similarly if Im single, and *I* dont want to get pregnant, its MY
    responsibility to ensure that either me or my partner is using a
    contraceptive...                                                          
                                    
    If the issue of not being able to AFFORD these preventative measure
    arises, and Im single - Id choose celibacy, if Im married and I
    cant afford it - WHAT THE HELL DOES A COUPLE DO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
    
    Ann
    	
    

    Thats more like it!!!!!
    I once read where lack of proper food in the early stages of growth
    lowered the later learning ability of a child.
    This is much better counteracted now to avoid more of the same in
    the future.
    The Holy Communion issue is hot news in Galway where illegal 
    moneylenders cashed in on the pressures put on parents
    to deck out their children in expensive once-off uniforms for these
    occasions.The resultant pay-offs hit the family budgets for months!
    Again it is an example of peer pressure placed by those in society
    who make the rules without due regard for peoples ability to pay.
    New circumstances demand new rules,ALL schoolchildren should be
    encouraged to wear their school uniform or some such standard 
    clothes on those occasions.The blatant display of wealth inherent
    in those traditional costumes sickens even me, although I have no
    direct experience of poverty.I can only begin to imagine what it
    must be like for those in poverty.
    For those who dont know what a communion outfit is it is best described
    as a like a wedding dress,white dress,matching veil,white shoes,handbag
    gloves etc.Something similar is worn at Confirmation.formal suits
    for the boys.These cannot be worn on any other occasion,but are
    usually bought new,a tragic waste of money in a poor family.
    Any more practical ideas that could tackle unemployment are very
    welcome.I liked the free school meals ,access to university etc.
    At the moment both are very lacking here but sadly we middle class
    take them for granted.Its the isolation of different sections I
    mentioned in an earlier reply.............                   
    

    I don't get it, sounds like we're chasing our tails......First "we're
    already at rock bottom as regards funds for welfare etc." Now we're
    suggesting free contraceptives, free school lunches and more
    accessability to universities. Meanwhile the catholic church is
    sitting back twiddling their thumbs, fully supportive of the idea
    that family planning will, at least partially, solve the economic 
    situation. 
    
    Do you suggest a means test before receiving permission to have
    a baby??? The rich folk have enough priveleges besides having a
    monopoly on child birth. I find what you're implying to be very
    kafkaesque. 
    
    Education and openness......yes.......what you're suggesting........
    very strange indeed.