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Conference tallis::celt

Title:Celt Notefile
Moderator:TALLIS::DARCY
Created:Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1632
Total number of notes:20523

572.0. "THE STATE OF THE IRISH LANGUAGE" by WILLEE::OROURKE () Tue May 16 1989 14:00

    From the May 7th Providence Journal:
    
    THIS IRISH MAN IS NOT SMILING
    -----------------------------
    	His beloved native language is dying, and he says the government
        doesn't care.
    
    His very name - Feilim O hAdmaill - speaks volumes about the Irish
    language.
    
    There's the strangeness of "Feilim," which has no English equivalent;
    the stand-alone vowel, without even an apostrophe; the way the "h"
    and the "A" seem transposed; and the fact that some letters seem
    altogether extraneous; hAdhmaill is pronounced Hamel.
    
    Yes, he says, the Irish language (He prefers you don't call it
    "Gaelic"; that sounds too "foreign") is difficult, which makes him
    even prouder that so many Irish people want badly these days to
    learn it, and sadder that politics get in the way.
    
    O hAdhmaill, a doctoral candidate from West Belfast, is touring
    this country to enlist moral and monetary support for a revival
    of the Irish language in Northern Ireland.  He says British authorities
    are trying to suppress the Irish language and, by extension, the
    culture.
    
    "I don't know whether it's bigotry.  I don't know whether it's racism
    carried over from an imperial attitude.  I don't know whether it's
    just stupidity.  I don't know if it's part of the great political
    chess game that's going on.  We don't know."
    
    The British government denies any animosity toward the Irish language.
    "Nonsense," said Brian Mawhinney, minisiter for education for Northern
    Ireland, in a telephone interview from Belfast.  "The government
    is not trying to suppress the language at all."
    
    Some unwritten rules - 
    
    But O hAdhmaill points to several unwritten rules against the Irish
    language which he says are evidence of the state's negative attitude:
    Irish is not taught in state-run Protestant schools.  It may not
    be spoken on any official level - in the legislature or in the courts.
    No child christened with an Irish name may be registered with the
    state; the state Anglicizes it.  At the two universities, no student
    may register using an Irish name.  In the prisons, no inmate may
    speak Irish or receive mail in Irish.
    
    There are no TV programs in Irish.  As for radio, the state-run
    BBC allows 15 minutes of Irish programming a day. (Unable to obtain
    a license, a group of northern Irish set up an illegal radio station
    which broadcasts non-political programming - traditional music,
    children's stories, rock music, etc.  Rather than acknowledge that
    it exits, says OhAdhmaill, the state leaves it alone.
    
    The only official law against the language prohibits the erection
    of street signs in Irish.  Lately, residents in some towns have
    protested by posting such signs anyway.  The police remove them.
    OhAdhmaill says, and the people post them again.
    
    To OhAdhmaill, such actions in an area of high unemployment, where
    there is little money for necessities, never mind street signs,
    are a testament to the people's strong desire to assert their
    Irishness.
    
    
    ******************************************************************
    
    The article continues on .....I'll have to try to finish it another
    day
    
    /Jen
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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572.1Language: the ultimate British RATHOLE.WREATH::DROTTERWed May 17 1989 11:41154
    re. .0 
    
    <He says British authorities are trying to suppress the Irish language
    <and, by extension, the culture.


     In times past, when trying to enlighten British noters in the E_F file,
especially about the genocidal policies that their government is perpetrating 
against the people in the north of Ireland, I often found it amusing the way 
the British noters would without fail, (as if invoking a "talisman" of some 
sort), attempt to divert notes containing any cogent facts or information, 
(about said genocidal policies in the north of Ireland) down the rathole of 
                              LANGUAGE. 
They would NEVER talk about the FACTS in the article, just note after note 
about "the language" used in the note: "The article wasn't delivered 
"properly", (Whatever that means!); "Not enough proof - it wasn't in the Sun"; 
The "language" used was not up to BRITISH CENSORSHIP "Standards", (I would 
certainly hope NOT!); and of course, it was always so much easier for British 
noters to revile the facts presented in that forum as "fighting words", 
rather than talk about the content presented, (even when the facts presented 
may have even come from a British source, like the Times), etc., etc. 
Ad nauseum.  

   There is a definite, inbred reason why the British do this.

   Those of us who have been fortunate enough to have seen the north of 
Ireland firsthand, and who recognize the: "Big Lie" about that FAILED STATELET; 
the hysterical, paranoid censorship, (even of Playboy magazine, no less! Not 
for the 'naughty bits' either!!); and the Orwellian, nightmarish behaviour of 
the British government/military in that *Experimental Lab for Urban Counter-
Insurgency Tactics & Killing Fields for State-Sponsored Terrorism* (a.k.a. 
Northern Ireland), can see through this deceptive manipulation of LANGUAGE. 
And, judging by the article below, more and more Americans are catching on to 
the diseased, aberrant, homicidal policies of the British government, that's 
hidden behind the mask of such *innocent language* as: "security" forces,
"detainees", and "plastic bullets". ("plastic" bullets don't hurt people,
Do they??!) 
   While this article was written by an American for an American audience, 
and is not about the Irish language per se, it does touch upon the heart of 
the matter in Jen's base note: The English have tried to destroy the Irish 
language (and to be sure) the culture as well, by imposing and enforcing their 
native tongue upon yet another race of people. (How many other places in the 
world have we seen this done by the British?!!). And since the Irish have 
bravely resisted such efforts for so long, the brutal repression and genocidal 
policies have been, (geometrically?) proportionally "well laid on". (As they 
used to say when talking about "administering" the lash to the Irish.) 
I have circled one paragraph near the end of the article with asterisks, 
because it really tells the truth and should remove ANY DOUBTS held 
by Feilim O hAdmaill in the first note as to the motive of why the British 
government is doing this.


                      Same Language, Different Worlds
                               by Paul R. Reid
                        Boston Sunday Globe (3/19/89)


   There is a trap that snares most American observers of Northern Ireland:
Language. For most Americans, language is the cultural pale beyond which they
are unwilling to venture. When we hear a foreign language we are on notice that
we are dealing with a different culture, but when we hear English we breathe
relief and assume that there is a shared cultural bond. The assumption fails
the Northern Ireland test.

   Northern Ireland is a foreign country -- or part of a foreign country,
actually part of two foreign countries. The United States, Britain and Ireland
all share a common language, which muddies the waters for those trying to make
sense of what is happening there. The words are the same but they define vastly
different cultures.

   Northern Ireland's disputants address each other in English and that
should bode well for communication at some level. But listen. There are as
many languages disguised as English as there are facets on the political prism.
Every participant employs unique lexicon to articulate what is ideologically
significant to him. Every word is freighted with political content, every 
phrase a complex web, a weapon for the combatants and a source of peril for
observers.  

   You need an English dictionary: Is it Londonderry or Derry, free state, 
Erie or the Republic?  Is it Ulster or the six counties? The words are not 
value-free. Do the British rule or do they govern? Is it Brit or British, 
Protestant or prod, Catholic or papist? There are no neutral phrases.
	
   The American journalist in Northern Ireland must choose words carefully.
the political content inherent in virtually every expression, however, ensures
that the choice is bound to lend credence to somebody's position.  When the IRA
blows up a schoolbus, is it an IRA action or an IRA atrocity?  For that matter,
is it the "outlawed" IRA or just plain IRA? It depends on who issues the press
release.

   The British will speak of "a criminal act committed by members of the
outlawed IRA." A Republican would refer to the same act as a "military action
by IRA regulars." Is it criminal or political?  When network anchors refer to
the "outlawed" IRA, they are toeing the British line, whether they know it or
not (radio commentators during World War II certainly didn't refer to the
French resistance as the "outlawed" French resistance). A shared language,
however, allows seemingly innocuous expressions to skip unscrutinized into
everyday use.

   Even capitalization is a function of political proclivities. It's "unionist"
in Dublin, But "Unionist" in Belfast. It is likewise with loyalist, Republican,
nationalist, unionist, loyalist -- how the terms are used, with how much 
content, varies from county to county, farm to farm, from street to street.

   This is paradox, the antithesis of the paradigm of order within which
most Americans live and most American journalists operate. Two people speaking
the same language will at least be able to communicate in the United States,
but not in Northern Ireland. Optimistic cosmology holds that order will follow
chaos, but not in Northern Ireland. The seeming strength of cultural ties and
the seeming university of language serve to give the observer of Northern 
Ireland a false sense that what is so here must be so there. But the language
is different and the cultural bonds between both Ireland and Britain and the
United States are less strong than we think: We celebrate our English heritage
by wearing London Fog coats and toast our Irish roots each March 17th.

   Then we settle back and express shock that people just like us -- the
Northern Irish -- tolerate "an acceptable level of violence." For us there is 
an acceptable level of highway carnage, but not of political violence.  We
assume, therefore, that the same must hold true in Northern Ireland. They speak
our language, after all.
	
   But they don't. Perhaps if we remember that the people of those isles
produced masters of language such as Churchill, Toynbee, Yeats and Shaw, the
linguistic labyrinth will be more readily negotiated. The Irish and English
saw early on the utility of words as weapons, honed those weapons to effect
and can unsheathe phrases with the fluorish of swordsmen. When it comes to the
strategy and tactics of political dialogue these people have it all over us 
Yanks. They weave words together, we hammer them. The lubricity of their
language is masked by its commonplace ring. Their English is not our English.

*****************************************************************************
*   The British have spent 300 years trying to suppress Gaelic in Ireland,  *
*which serves as testimony to their respect of language's power in defining *
*culture. University of language is a prerequisite to assimilation.         *
*Republicans in Northern Ireland may speak English now, but it's not the same
*language the British speak -- or that we speak.  They're not assimilated and
*the English they speak bears witness. The British made language a weapon;  *
*the Irish have sharpened it to deadly effect.                              *
******************************************************************************
Americans should remove their cultural blinders and take note. 


                                End of Article.


----------------
Paul R. Reid is a columnist for the Transcript newspapers.
                
    
    
    
    Damn right they're trying to destroy the language.

572.2My experiencesKERNEL::DICKSONFri May 19 1989 06:1742
    Hello,
    
    This is my first contribution to this note and I hope to make more
    in the future. I was once quite active in a Irish "Soapbox" notes
    some years ago. Being from Northern Ireland and having lived there
    for twenty six years of my life I felt I could bring some sanity
    to the ranting and ravings of il-informed people with views based
    on summer holiday visits and one sided views.
    
    I purpose in writing to this note file is to try and do the same,
    as the same il-imformed people still seem to exist.
    
    -On language, I when to a school in Andersonstown West Belfast and
    as a Catholic school I had to learn Irish. (I was'nt very good but
    then languages have always been my weak point, even english, as
    you will see from my bad spelling). 
    
    What is interesting is that there is an "O"level and "A"level exam
    in this subjest. (These are the state recognised qualifications). 
    
    Again going to school in West Belfast where republicanism is the
    norm there where plenty of guys (it was an all boys school), who
    had Irish names and these were recorded as such on the birth
    certificates and indeed all state paperwork.
    
    It is true to say that street signs are taken down by the authorities,
    however in Seymore Hill (a protestant housing Estate where I lived
    most of my young life), also tried to put up Loyalist street names
    of their "so called" hero's, and these were taken down as well!!
    
    What I have found more sinister is the system in the South of Ireland
    (which I believe may have been changed recently), whereby even if
    a student had passed all their subjects in "high school"  if the
    did'nt pass Irish the record showed that they failed everything!
    
    I hope some of this helps put some sanity into the emotion of Ireland,
    and inparticular the North.
    
    Best Regards
    
    Michael
    
572.3they are coming to take you away !!KERNEL::DARCYBeam me up MaggieFri May 19 1989 06:4910
    Micheal,	
    	    On the subject of whether or not you passed your Leaving
    Certificate depended on passing the Irish exam has now gone. When
    I sat my final exams in 1981 I passed all other subjects but not
    Irish( I am sad to say I never got the hang of the language and
    have never passed an exam in all the time I attended senior school.
    
    Have fun
    
    Tom
572.4CHEFS::HOLOHANJFri May 19 1989 07:4717
    
    Micheal,
    
    Thankfully the system has been changed as stated in .3
    
    However, it was never the case that
    	> the record showed that they failed everything.
    
    What the record showed was the grades obtained in ALL subjects.
    If a failure grade was obtained in Irish then the student didn't
    receive his/her certificate - not a failed grade in everything.
    
    Therefore an employer could see how the student performed in all
    subjects regardless of the grade obtained in Irish.
    
    
    Jim.
572.5TPVAX1::CULBERTFree Michael CulbertFri May 19 1989 09:3617
    
    
    Michael,
    
      Welcome to Celt!!!!
    
      I do hope you become an active member here.   As I am known for
    ranting and raving about the North of Ireland. It is possible I
    am one of the il-informed you mentioned.  I am more than open to
    learning and discussing the issue be it here in Celt or through
    the mail.  
    
    Being as you are from Andersonstown, maybe you could explain what
    it is/was like there.  I plan to spend a week or so there this summer
    so I am particularly interested in hearing what it is like.
    
    paddy
572.6West Belfast has movedKERNEL::DICKSONFri May 19 1989 12:3215
    
    Paddy,
    
    Thank you for the welcome, (easy to see we're in a Celt conference,
    by the warmth of the greeting!).
    
    I will give a run down on the Andersonstown/West Belfast area, but
    I will open a new note as this probably is'nt the right place.
    
    I will go and open it now.
    
    See you there.
    
    Michael
    
572.7VUETOO::MCCROHANMike McCrohan @BPO Dtn 296-3040Fri May 19 1989 14:0712
It has been a few years, but I seem to remember that you
failed the (overall) Leaving Certicicate Examination if you
failed to achieve a pass grade in English, Irish, or Maths.

I also seem to remember that the Irish-pass requirement was removed in 
the mid '70s, but that the others remained.....



Welcome to Celt_notes.

Micheal MacCriomhthain
572.8supression doesn't workVAXUUM::WALTERSFri May 19 1989 15:1753
    
    As I've raised a few other questions on language and broadcasting
    in this note, I can't pass this one by.
    
    First, I have to say that don't forget that there are Celts that are
    British and because of this ambivalence I find note .2 more than
    a little offensive.  I don't endorse Gov't policy in NI, can't speak
    for others, but the Gov't only had 30% of the electorate in the last
    election.
    
    My initial reaction is, even if the government� withdraws education,
    suppresses official use of a language and discriminates against it in
    the workplace, what's stopping you setting up alternative education
    centres?  Performing plays in gaelic?  Holding poetry readings?
    
    As I said in a previous note, my grandparents were beaten in school
    for speaking Welsh, and forced to wear a sign around their necks saying
    "Not Welsh".  All part of the (then) gov't policy on language in
    schools.
    
    90 years on and:
    
    	o  Parents have the option to choose a Welsh school where all
    	   education is conducted in Welsh.
    
    	o  Welsh is an official language, with most road signs, documents
    	   bilingual.  Legal proceedings may be conducted bilingually.
    
    	o  There are thriving TV and radio channels broadcasting in Welsh.
    
        o  There are 250,000+ speakers and growing.  A new celtic language
    	   institute (includes Catalan!) opened in North Wales near Bala
           this year.
    
    How is it that Welsh survived and spoken Cornish was lost?
    
    Perhaps this has been accomplished by the people forcing change on
    central governments through organisations that are essentially
    non-political (Iaith, Urdd etc).
    
    It's all very well for US contributors to cry "Look at the Bully Brit
    Govt" suppressing the Gaelic.  God knows I'm no supporter of Maggie
    and her lapdogs, but this time it's got s*d all to do with them.
    
    If you *let* your language die, it's your own fault.  It's certainly
    my fault that I can't speak my own language very well - I've had plenty
    of opportunity to learn.
    
    (Let's have a little more reason with the emotion.)
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
572.9Irish language article - part 2WILLEE::OROURKEFri May 19 1989 16:3698
    
    Well, seeing as I've created quite a stir, I really should try to
    put in more of the article.  As I said it is quite long, but to
    get "both" sides, you really do need to read on.
    
    It will probably take a couple more entries to finish it.
    
    I really can't form a good opinion.  Being a fairly well educated
    American, I know a few things.....one of which, is how little I
    know.   When I visited Ireland, I did here some people speaking
    Irish & it sounded beautiful...almost lyrical.   As with many things
    in our modern world though, people don't seem to have the time or
    energy to learn what they don't "absolutely need to survive."
    
    
    Anyway, on with the article
    
    " Results of a survey - A recent survey taken in the town of Twinbrook,
    O hAdhmaill said, indicated that 70% of the households surveyed
    would like to learn Irish if given the opportunity; 55-65% of parents
    would like their children to attend a school where all subjects
    were taught in Irish.
        
    Contrary to O hAdhmaill claims, Education Minister Mawhinney says
    ther is little demand among Northern Irelanders to learn Irish -
    and he doesn't feel it's the state's role to create a demand, only
    respond when it arises.
    
    Still, a stack of newspaper clippings provided by O hAdmaill indicates
    that the issue stimulates strong anti-government feeling.  The stories
    describe the considerable uproar which arose when Mawhinney proposed
    a new curriculum which would have made it impossible to study Irish
    without first studying English and a foreign language.
    
    Mawhinney concedes he was forced back down - I listened to them.
     I said, "Fine."  He says he was only trying to ensure that Irish
    students keep pace with the European counterparts by taking French,
    German, or Spanish.  "Catholic children in Northern Ireland should
    not be put at a disadvantage."
    
    Mawhinney says that fewer than 1% of the people of Northern Ireland
    are fluent in Irish, which he says proves lack of demand.  If people
    were truly interested in learning it, he said, they would press
    harder for its inclusion in the public school curriculum.
    
    As it is, he said, Irish is offered in the Catholic shools, which
    95% of Northern Irish children attend and which do receive state
    funding - "so that doesn't sound like suppression."
    
    He also rejected O hAdhmaill's other charges.  "I'm glad you rang,"
    he said "because I fear you were being sold a bill of goods."
    
    It would be impractical for Irish to be spoken in the courts or
    legislature, he said, since so few people understand it.  And, he
    said, children christened with Irish names may in fact be registered
    that way with the state, as well as with the universities.
    
    As for radio and TV broadcasting, he said, those policies are not
    up to the state.  Contrary to what most Americans believe, he said
    the British Broadcasting Company is not run by the state but by
    a board of independent businesses.
    
    In the matter of illegal Irish street signs, the number of people
    who erect them is small and does not represent the majority's wishes.
    In short, said Mawhinney, the language is being used by a few as
    a political weapon against the state.
    
    OhAdhmaill admits that most of the people who wish to learn Irish
    are Catholic, but he insists that the issue transcends politics
    because Irish is the original language of both sides.
    
    "We think that the Irish language and culture could be one of the
    unifying things," he said.  "There are a lot of people talking bout
    the differences between us and, in fact, the Irish language is often
    seen by unionists as a difference.  What we say is that there's
    a lot of commonality between us and if we look far enough back in
    our history, we can see this heritage."
    
    *******************************************************
    
    There's still quite a bit of the article left....I'll have to save
    it for another day.   I do think this section raises two interesting
    points though.   Global competitiveness is getting more and more
    visibility.  American students are strongly encouraged to take Spanish
    because of the tremendous number of people in the world who speak
    it.  As a matter of fact, I heard an interesting stat, but can't
    remember the exact numbers.  Basically, it said that by the year
    2000 as many DEC employees will be able to speak Spanish as English.
    
    The other interesting thing is the concept of teaching in school
    those subjects that are 'popular' or in demand.  Surely, few high
    school students were clamouring for abstract geometry or midevil
    history, but we had to take them.  
    
    Just a thought....
    
    
    
572.10Y NINNAUFSADMN::REESEI never met a calorie I didn&#039;t likeFri May 19 1989 17:499
    re: .8
    
    Colin -
    
    Don't forget, we Welsh really are stubborn and tenacious buggers
    when you come right down it :-)
    
    Karen_who's_Welsh_is woefully_lacking_in_fact_but_not_in_spirit!!
    
572.11the state of the English languageEVER11::DUNNETue May 23 1989 17:005
    And if we're going to be ill-informed, let's be properly ill-informed!
    :-)
    
    Eileen