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Conference tallis::celt

Title:	Celt Notefile

Moderator:	TALLIS::DARCY

Created:	Wed Feb 19 1986
Last Modified:	Tue Jun 03 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1632
Total number of notes:	20523

553.0. "MADOG, The Americas discoverer???" by COMICS::HWILLIAMS () Thu Apr 20 1989 11:35

I remeber an old welsh ballad which recounts the setting off one bright 
Spring day of a fleet of 24 sailing ships bound on a voyage of discovery.
The leader of this fleet was Madog, a welsh prince of the middle ages, after 
which the north wales seaside town of Porthmadog is named (Porthmadog literally
translates as Madog's Port).

This story was for a long time treated as a poetic fabrication.  However I
 recall reading somewhere that during the last century anthropologists
discovered that an isolated tribe of American indians on the east coast spoke a
form of dialect that was best described as "Pidgin Welsh". 

I dont know how accurate or true this claim was but it is certainly very
interesting. Columbus might not have been the first to reach the americas;
but he was probably the first to return.

Is there anyone (either side of the atlantic pond) who could throw light on
this intriguing story? [or merely comment upon it]

In anticipation,   Huw Erfyl Williams.

T.R	Title	User	Date	Lines
553.1	Pre-Columbian Celts	KLO::JOYCE	`Fri Apr 21 1989 12:06`	20
	There are some slants on this in the Topic 525, "The Celtic South?". I would be interested in a note that stimulated discussion on pre-Columbian Celtic discoverers of America. Just as an example, when the Vikings reached Iceland, they found Irish monks. There is no reason to disbelieve that Irish (or other Celtic monks) roamed farther afield. Books like Bob Quinn's "Atlantean" suggest that there was once a maritime civilization uniting the western shores of Europe and North Africa - could this culture have reached across the Atlantic? South American legends tell of fair-skinned men coming from the east, the Spanish later made great use of these. All plausible in a loose sort of way - what is lacking is hard evidence! Anyone got any? Toby
553.2	Error	KLO::JOYCE	`Fri Apr 21 1989 12:09`	6
	Sorry, "The Celtic South?" note is 527, not 525. There is also a previous note on mysterious ruin is New England that touches on this. Toby
553.3	US Invades Wales	VOGON::WALTERS	`Thu May 04 1989 09:38`	18
	I visited the May fair at the Amgueddfa Werin Cymru (Welsh Folk Museum) last weekend. The museum shop stocks a few hundred books on Welsh mythology, but not a single reference to Madoc could I find. However, There was an amazing story in one history book about Wales being invaded during the Napoleonic wars, by a French army led by an American general by the name of Tate. They were beaten off by a rag-tag army of Welsh farmers that was 50% women and the invaders surrendered before the redcoats could arrive. Apparently, one woman known as "Jemima Fawr" (great Jemima) captured 12 Frenchmen with a pitchfork. The only Welsh casualty was another woman, shot in the leg while defending her farmhouse with a broom. Never cross a Welsh woman...... Colin.
553.4	Another book on Madog	KLO::JOYCE	`Fri May 05 1989 06:05`	17
	I discovered another book in which information about Madog can be found. It is called "Westward the Course of Empire" by Bernard deVoto, and its UK publisher is Eyre and Spottiswoode. There is probably another publisher in the US, however deVoto is a well known US historian. The book describes the exploration of the territory of what is now the United States between 1528 and 1805. Madog crops up frequently. The "Welsh Indians" were a popular legend, stories kept cropping up of lost travellers finding themselves among people who could speak Welsh. However, this tribe always seemed to be just over the frontier. Happy reading! Toby