| Title: | Celt Notefile |
| Moderator: | TALLIS::DARCY |
| Created: | Wed Feb 19 1986 |
| Last Modified: | Tue Jun 03 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1632 |
| Total number of notes: | 20523 |
I posted this in the genealogy file. I thought there might be some
readers here who also might be willing to give me a bit of advice
about sorting out the genealogy from the folklore! My questions
are interspersed in [square brackets].
Thanks for your help!
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Note 265.22 Irish Surnames 22 of 22
SUPER::HENDRICKS "The only way out is through" 55 lines 6-JAN-1989 19:34
-< More info on McSherry/McSharry and some questions >-
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I just got a letter from my cousin last night, and wonder if anyone
would be willing to offer their opinions as to how much is genealogy
and how much is folklore!
This is about the McSherry name.
"The name was originally McSharry or MacSharry. Bundoran is loaded
with McSharrys but not with McSherrys.
The oldest known chieftain was Roderick ("Mad Roddy") McSharry,
who was the seventh son of a seventh son and HAD seven sons. The
family battlecry is "Mad Roddy McSharry and his seven sons! Lothar
[what is Lothar?] and the Blue Skies over it!". The McSharrys were
originally Scottish (Catholic) and emigrated to Ireland around the
time of Mary Queen of Scots. (Not during the plantations.)
The McSharry coat of arms can be found under the third coat of arms
for Foley. This has (McSharry) in parentheses. The McSharrys (many
of them) changed their name to Foley when things got hot over in
Ireland. There was also a McSharry tartan which was outlawed by
the British."
[My cousin goes on to relates the following story...does it sound
at all plausible to anyone? Sounds like a "B" movie to me.]
Sir John Payton was Ellen McSherry's grandfather. He was "Ascendancy
Irish" [what is that?]. May have been Protestant. Payton was a
Captain of the Bengal Lancers around the time of the Sepoy Mutinies,
of which there were many. He received a life baronetcy for heroism
on the battlefield [how can I check this?].
He lived in India for many years. He married an Indian woman of high
caste reputed to be a princess or maharani [I'm skeptical]. They had
one daughter, Ellen's mother, named Barbara Payton. She was educated
in India. She became very interested in the Irish cause and went to
Ireland and became the secretary of the Sinn Fein movement along what
is now the border between the north and south. Education for Irish
Catholics was punishable by death at that time, but since she was
educated in India she could read and write.
Barbara Payton married Charles Patrick McSharry and they emigrated to
the US when the British made things a little too hot for them.
They continued to be politically active in Sinn Fein. They would
return to Ireland when they could and return to the US when they
were on the run. "
I'm interested in any comments anyone has. I'm also interested
in advice on how to check out aspects of this story. Most of my
ancestors in Britain are common folks and I haven't done much
with people with baronetcies !
Thanks.
Holly
| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 485.1 | LUTECE::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Wed Jan 11 1989 03:17 | 39 | |
Re .0: Hi Holly,
You sure got a very interesting story there, but some details are
probably a little out of context.
As for the surname Foley, Mike Foley will tell you that it means
"plunderer" :^)...
Ascendancy Irish in this context means most probably a member of
the Irish aristocracy, (the landlords), who were in early 19th century
about 90% protestant (give or take some, I don't recall the actual
figure on the spot). I mention early 19th century because the main
Sepoy mutiny (the one that ended them all) was in 1857; it's the
only one which is well remembered: as a result of it, the East Indies
company had to leave the actual ruling of India to the British
government and about 10 years later Disraeli offered the crown of
Emperess of India to queen Victoria. About the baronetcy, I don't
have much info, but as nobility is still recognised in GB, there
must be some royal office in charge of nobility titles and this
office must have archives, this would be the first place I'd check.
As for Payton marrying an Indian woman, it's possible, but you're
right to be skeptical as it was very seldom that the Europeans mixed
themselves with Indians (at least to the point of getting married)
in the Indian Empire; better check that, but I've no idea how.
About education for catholics in Ireland, it was only at the
worst time of the Penal Laws (i.e. early 18th century) that it was
punishable by death. By the end of the century it had become legal
again (mainly, see the actions of Charles O'Connor of Ballinagar in the
-I think- 1780's about it). So the consistency of the dating should
be checked, as I think the term Sinn Fein was first coined in the
late 1840's or in the 1850's, and Sinn Fein as an actual political
movement was really known as such only from the beginning of the
20th century (but maybe the author was thinking to some other political
Irish movement).
Sorry about Lothar, but I don't see what it means, maybe I should
check in a Gaelic glossary... There were quite a lot of catholic
Scots who emigrated to Ireland at the time of the Scottish reformation
(e.g.: the Mac Donnell of Antrim), quite a few years before the
various plantations, which were mostly by either protestants or
dissenters, many of them of Scottish stock too.
Hope this helps,
Denis.
| |||||
| 485.2 | Dilip D'Souza will tell you differently | AIAG::GAVIN | Wed Jan 11 1989 11:37 | 5 | |
Re: Indians marrying europeans; I don't know about other European nationalities marrying Indians, but at least according to a friend of mine there are quite a few Indians with Portuguese surnames. Michael | |||||
| 485.3 | Chuck E. R. Law | GAO::MHUGHES | Wed Jan 11 1989 12:26 | 24 | |
Leaprechauns add.
Re .0 & .1
Sinn Fein was formed in 1910 by Arthur Griffith. It rose to prominence
only after it was blamed for the 1916 rebellion.
The most famous McSharry at the moment is the man that is blocking
access for U.S. hormone treated meat to the EC. He is the EC
Agriculture COmmissioner since Jan. 1st. (biggest EC protfolio).
Before that he was C.J. Haughey's right hand man as minister for
finance in the Irish government.
He is from Co. Sligo and not too far from Bundoran.
I think that you need to get your hands on some birth dates and
allied locations to kick this one off try starting with a granny
or grandad. Their certs. might give you dates for their parents
also.
Irish ones usually do.
Snake tries.
| |||||
| 485.4 | LUTECE::MAILLARD | Denis MAILLARD | Wed Jan 11 1989 13:00 | 7 | |
Re .2: Yes, you're right about it, but the Portugueses were the one
exception in all the European colonial empires: they were the only
ones to mix and intermarry with the "natives" in most of their
colonies. Maybe that's why they got less colonial problems than
the others until late in the 20th century. The English, on the other
hand, were among the most segregated versus their colonial "subjects".
Denis.
| |||||
| 485.5 | SINN FEIN, founded 1905 | EGAV01::JCREAN | Thu Feb 23 1989 03:59 | 6 | |
Sinn Fein was actually founded in 1905 by a William Rooney, who
died a few years afterwards. Arthur Griffiths then took over.
It is of interest that James Joyce's "ULYSSES", set in 1904, contains
several references to Sinn Fein. Joyce's memory was like everybody
else's, apparently.
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