Conference tallis::celt

    Re .0: Although there are some correspondances, and even some gods
    are the same with only minor spelling or naming differences, the
    Gaul, Welsh and Irish pantheons are quite different from each other,
    and we know them from sources which are quite dissimilar.
    The Gaul-Britton pantheon is mostly known through the writings of
    the Roman writers (plus some Greek ones). The main gods were Teutates
    (or Toutatis, if you're a fan of Asterix comics), a thunder god,
    Belenos, Lug, a sun god, Cernunnos, who wears antlers on his head,
    and the goddess Belisama. The Roman writers tented to equate them
    to Roman-Greek gods, altough the links were usually very thin.
    The Welsh pantheon is known from the Mabinogion, the Welsh mythological
    cycle, and is an evolution of the Britton pantheon with very strong
    Irish influences. I could go through my mythology books to get more
    info, but on the spot the only names than come back to mind are
    those of the gods Llyr and Bran and of the goddess Rhiannon.
    The Irish pantheon doesn't show many gods, but many semi-gods and
    surpernatural creatures. It is known mostly from the book of conquest,
    which relates the four successive waves of colonisation in pre-Celtic
    Ireland, and from the Red Branch Knights cycle of Ulster (the
    adventures of Cuchullain) and the Fenian cycle (the adventures of
    Finn Mac Cumhail and his son Oisin -or Ossian-). The last two cycles
    are mostly heroic cycles rather than the tales of the gods, although
    the gods appear quite often in these. Note that all theses books
    evolved quite a lot in Christian times. The main Irish gods I can
    recall on the spot are Dagde, his wife Danu (goddess of the Tuatha
    De Dannaan), Nuada, king of the Tuatha De Dannaan, Lugh, the sun
    god (see the Gaul god Lug), and the blacksmith Goibhniu. The super-
    natural creatures include the Tuatha De Dannaan themselves, who
    were descended from Danu, the Fomorians, a race of giants who dwelt
    in Ireland before the men came and fought against most the successive
    invaders. The Sidhe (or fairies) are the Tuatha De Dannaan who remained
    in Ireland after most of them left to Tir Na Nog (the land of eternal
    youth); they live underground inside the hills.
    I think that's all I can remember for the moment. If you want more
    details, just say so and I'll look for them in my books.
    			Denis.

    Re: .1
    
    Thanks, Denis.  I didn't know the various pantheons differed so
    widely.  I'd be interested in seeing more, particularly the creation
    myths.
    
    A few questions.  Was Teutates the thunder god or was it Belenos,
    or neither?  I've seen similar names in a trilogy by Guy Gavriel
    Kay called _The Fionavar Tapestry_.  The books draw heavily on celtic
    mythology.  For those who are interested, the three books are:
    
    _The Summer Tree_
    _The Wandering Fire_
    _The Darkest Road_
    
    Maise MacCrann (aka. Wook Lee)

    I recommend you consult Celtic Mythology by Proinsias MacCana (Hamlyn,
    1970) for a very good overview of the subject.
    

	From what I recall, Teutates was more of a generic name
	for the leading/protector God of the tribe.  It is related 
	to the Celtic word for tribe (cf. Tuatha D� Danann, people
	of the Godess Danu )

	Our knowledge of Celtic mythology is very vague, because
	of the lack of written accounts.  As mentioned in .1, there
	are the Irish and Welsh epics, mainly written by Christian
	monks during the Middle Ages (9th - 13th century AD), which 
	clearly draw upon the pre-christian Celtic myths.  As far as I 
	know, only very vague traces of what might possibly be remains
	of Celtic mythology remain in medieval writings from the continent.  

	What we have left are mainly representations of mythological beings. 
	Sometimes a name is attached, but even these are often just Roman 
	equivalents.

	It 's a pity, because I too am fascinated by Celtic mythology.
	Yet, I think that the ever remaining mystery contributes to
	this fascination for an important part.

	I think it's only in place names that you can still find lots
	of remains of the myths.  Cities like Lyon, Leiden and Liegnitz
	all derive from Lugdunum (which means Fort(? I'm not sure of
	this anymore) of Lugh).  Names of major rivers like the Seine, 
    	Danube, also the Rhine I think, derive from Celtic Deities.

	Leo.

     Re .2:I checked about the various members of the Gaul pantheon
     (what little is known about them) and the Roman gods they were
     (often with very little cause) equated to.
     So here we have:
     Teutates: Tribal or nation god (as was pointed in .4),the main
	Gaul god, but equated to Mercurius-Hermes, mainly because he
	was the god of trade and travellers (among other attributes).
     Ogmios: God of eloquence, equated to Hercules-Herakles.
     Taranis: God of thunder and lightning, sometime confused with another
	Gaul god, Sucellus, and equated to Jupiter-Zeus (guess why?).
     Cernunnos: the name means "the one with horns", because he sports
	deer antlers. I don't know to whom the Romans might have equated
	him.
     Belenos: Equated to Apollo-Phoebos.
     Esus: War god, equated to Mars-Ares.
     Belisama: Equated to Minerva-Athena.
    
    	As far as Creation myth are concerned, I'm not aware that any
     Gaul ones are known to us. And there are very few references to
     creation myths in the Irish book of conquests (that is, if I remember
     well, but I could be wrong there).
			Denis.

    re:.5
    
    �Cernunnos: the name means "the one with horns"...�
    
    That must make him the God of Love, equivalent to Eros/Cupid. :-)
    
    But seriously, I assume that he's equivalent to Herne the Hunter?
    (from British? mythology, not Roman.)
    
    --- jerry

    Re .6: Should I have written "the horny one", Jerry?    ;^)...
    But on the other hand, in French, horns and antlers are supposed
    to be attributes of the cuckolds... Is that the same in English?
    I've never been able to find out (not that I looked hard...).
    
    About Herne the Hunter, it's the first time I see it mentionned,
    so I couldn't tell for sure (he doesn't figure in the Britton or
    Saxon mythology books I happen to have), but the name Herne seems
    to be related to horns (same as the root cernu in Cernunnos).
    			Denis.

    re:.7
    
    Hmmm...I always wondered what the etymology for "horny" (at
    least the meaning of "sexually aroused") was.
    
    My dictionary doesn't say, though it does give a meaning, flagged
    as "archaic", of "to cuckold" for the transitive verb "to horn",
    as well as "cuckolded" for the adjective "horned".
    
    --- jerry

    re: .1
    
    Denis, can you supply more info on Goibhnui (how is the name
    pronounced?). A friend of mine  is a blacksmith  and would be most
    interested. He is a fellow piper and Pagan to boot!
    
    Thanks JohnB

    
    
    
    	RE: .9
    
    
    	Wasn't "Goibhnui" one of the characters in "Star Wars" ?  :-)
    
    
    
    	keVin

    Re .9: I'll have a look at that. Please excuse the delay in answering,
    I just came back from 3 weeks of vacation in Ireland 2 days ago.
    		Denis.
   

    Re .9: About Goibniu (that's how Pr. Thomas F. O'Rahilly spells
    his name, but I couldn't help on the pronunciation, you'll have
    to ask a Gaelic speaker): he is known as one of the 'Tr� dee Donann' or
    'na tr� dee d�na' in the early versions of the 'Lebor Gab�la'.
    The first phrase means he's one of the three sons of Donann, the
    second that he's one of the three gods with artistic skills. The
    second meaning is the most likely. The other two are Luchta and
    Credne. They appear to be forging weapons for the Tuatha D� Danann
    (or Donann) when they're preparing themselves for the second battle
    of Mag Tuired (or Moytura) which they fought against the Fomoire.
    Goibniu is the smith (or goba) who provides spear-points that slay
    all whom they touch. Cerdne is the worker in bronze (or cerd) and
    provides rivets for the spears, hilts for the swords, bosses and
    rims for the shields. Luchta is the wright (or soer) and makes shields
    and spear-shafts.
    Goibniu is primarily the Otherworld god in his capacity of artificer.
    The Otherworld-feast was called fled Goibnenn, or Goibniu's feast.
    Those who partook in this feast were preserved from age and decay
    (they became immortal).
    As the divine smith, Goibniu was naturally regarded as a wonderful
    builder (in some texts the house that Gobb�n Saer built is the firmament
    of heaven and in some lives of Irish saints, he's assigned the role
    of expert church-builder!...).
    His Welsh counterpart in the Mabinogion is Gwydion, or Gwydyon.
    All the above infos are from the book of T. F. O'Rahilly: Early
    Irish History and Mythology, published by the Dublin Institute for
    Advanced Studies.
    		That's about all I found about him.
    				Denis.

    RE: .12
    
    Denis,
    Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to research this Goibhnui
    chap. My smith pal will be most interested. The subject obviously
    deserves more investigation on my part. I'll see what my local
    Library can come up with.
    
    Regards JohnB

    S'ydych Chi,
                                      
    Hi Guys - Don't forget that Britain was very tribal at one time
    and there has been a lot of "mix down" in the gods and religions.
    
    In Welsh Mythology there seem to be several other areas you could
    look at apart from the Mabinogion, which was written down fairly
    recently.  In the Romano-Celtic period some of the mythology is mixed
    up with "real" history.  Gwydion the smith is supposed to have made
    the Sword of Macsen Wledig, a Romano-Briton who rebelled against
    and invaded Rome, where he was defeated and executed. Later, in
    Arthurian legend, this was the sword "Excalibur" or "Caliburn"
    that was found for Arthur by Merlin.  Merlin has the Welsh name of
    "Myrddin Emrys" and Myrddin was the old Welsh god of the high places.

    A writer by the name of Mary Stewart has written some excellent
    books on the Athurian legend.  It's from this period that the cult of
    the dragon enters into Welsh Mythology.  Yr Ddraig Goch - The Red
    Dragon of Wales was the symbol of Arthur, overcoming the white
    Dragon of the Saxons at the heigh of the "Saxon Terror" when their
    longboats raided the North Eastern shores. I suspect that this was
    later borrowed back by the English as the St. George story.
    
    The Roman deity of Mithras was also widely worshipped in Romano-Celtic
    Britain, and I understand that this was true of Brittany, which
    was then called "Less Britain".  Mithras was a cult of the Bull
    that involved sacrificial slaughter and many secret rites.  Those
    guys are probably freemasons today.  There is a temple of Mithras
    in Hadrians Wall - a fortification that was built to protect Northern
    England from the ravages of the Picts. (Whatever happened to the
    Picts?).
    
    The "old gods" were gods of natural places such as the woodlands
    or a stream.  Ancient carvings to these gods often stood at crossroads
    or at a ford where a traveller might leave a morsel of food or pour
    a libation of water to the god in return for safe passage on their
    journey.  Some carvings contain a runic script that has not yet
    been deciphered so they could contain other names for the gods.
    
    These old gods would have a creature associated with them - the
    Merlin, or "Myrddin" is a falcon, and was the god of high places,
    Whereas the Owl would be associated with the god of night and darkness.
    (The Welsh word for Owl is "Gwenhwyfar" which translates to "white
    shadow" and is written in English as "Guinivere" - the name of Arthur's
    Queen.)
    
    Finally there is the druidic cult.  Very little is known of this.
    They may have used ancient stone circles as places of worship such
    as those at Avebury and Stonehenge.  There may also have been a
    bit of human sacrifice here and there, particularly when captured
    enemies were at hand.  The druidic religion is supposed to be based
    on sun and moon worship, which is why they used the huge stone circles
    as massive sundials during their rites.  The mistletoe was a plant
    sacred to the druids and was cut with a golden sickle during the
    rites. (This may even be something to do with fertility and may
    be related to "kissing under the mistletoe!).  Welsh folk festivals
    or "Eisteddfodiau" carry on a few of the traditions such as placing
    a stone circle wherever a national Eisteddfod is held while he bards
    still wear druidic robes.
    
    (If you think the druids were bad, then know that the Saxons would burn
    their victims in wicker cages to ensure a good harvest.)
    
    I'm a bit nervous of citing pantheons, because I feel that too many
    of them are actually borrowed gods, this "smith" thing goes all
    the way back to the ancient Greek legend of the Cyclops.
    
    Gyda'r gwir iawn,
    
    Colin

Note 400.14               Celtic Folklore and Mythology                 14 of 14

	>>(Whatever happened to the Picts?).

	"Picts.  Pictures.  They were painted blue."  Sir Kay 

	"And I am supposed to have managed your education."  Merlin


	"The Once and Future King" by T H White, 
	also an entertaining and informative book re: the Authurian Legend.  
	Camelot and the Sword in the Stone and etc are based on this book 
	as well.

No one has responded yet to the "what about the goddess" bit of
the question?  Which may be why some of you might be finding a
shortage of creation myths--the two subjects are closely
interrelated.  Some secondary sources:  Marie Louise Sjoestedt:
Gods and Heroes of the Celts; Anne Ross: Pagan Celtic Britain;
Alwyn and Brinley Rees, Celtic Heritage.  For primary sources,
Cross & Slover's Ancient Irish Tales, Myles Dillon The Cycles of
the Kings and Early Irish Literature and, for those of you with
access to it, the Dinshenchas, the Irish placename stories.  And
the folklore archives of UCD.

The original name of Ireland was Eriu, often described, as is
usual with Irish goddesses, in triple with her sisters.  The Book
of Invasions recounts how the goddess Eriu greets the invading
Sons of Mil, and asks only that her name be remembered.  You find
a great part of evidence in placenames:  Emain Macha, Teamhair,
Cnoc Aine, Sliabh na Cailliagh.  In Irish tradition, the goddess
is the land--the old mother.  The tradition carries on to this
day in the image of poor old Caitlin ni Houlihan.  The Old Sow,
etc.  In the Tain, look for Cuchulain's encounters with the
Morrigan, and with Scatach, and Medb herself  (I see Queen Mab
has been with you!).  In the stories about kings, read about how
a hero earned the right to kingship.

In order to rule, the king must first have the permission of the
goddess, whom he married after a series of initiatory trials.  If
he displeased her, or violated his geasa, his kingship was
reclaimed--usually violently.

Any of you with interest in or access to folklore track down
numerous references to the Cailleach Bheara, the Hag of
Beare--another Old Mother who survived centuries of systematic
obfuscation of this sort of information.  That's 'cause most of
this stuff was written down by Christians.

Speaking of which, re 400.9, the friend-of-pagan seeking info re
Goibhnui, parallels do exist between Gobain Saor and Wayland
Smith of British tradition.  The smith in tradition generally has
lots of wisdom, and the power of vision.  This comes of his
connection to Brigid, another triple goddess, of Smiths, poets
and physicians.  By the by, one source suggests that an obscure
"saint" of the Aran Islands and Ballyvourney, Gobnait, is the
feminine of Gobain-that she herself was a smith.  And a poet.
Certainly she was the local goddess in that rainy corner of Cork,
until they plopped a veil on her.  Her statue doesn't look like
any Moving Mary-of the wan blue eyes I've ever seen, however.
She stands on a beehive, and white deer are sacred to her.
Your tradition is crawling with goddesses, kids.  You just have
to shift your focus a bit.

--Scatach

    Can anyone tell me about the Riders of the Sidhe?
    
    I know that the Sidhe were supposed to be fairies of some description,
    but I don't know anything else about them.  I recently saw a painting
    of the riders in the 'Last Romantics' exhibition that was held recently
    at the Barbican and it reminded me of some Alan Garner books that I
    read as a child. I wondered if he was thinking of the Riders as he did
    often use Celtic myth in his books.
    
    The painting shows four riders.  One is carrying either a tree or a
    branch (not sure which), one a stone, another a sword and one a cup.
    
    Any information would be gratefully received.  I also wondered if there
    was any connection between the riders and the Wild Hunt?
    
    Aly

Random thoughts-

Your 4 riders are carrying the symbols of the 4 suits of the Tarot.

One book I have defines Sidhe only as The Fairies (of the Highlands).  Will be
doing more research soon.

Walt Disney's "Darby O'Gill & Little People" movie has little fairies riding 
horses.  If this is The Sidhe, they must be a well known.(?)

The Transcendental Meditation folks have a name for a high ranking TMer which 
sounds like sidhe, but I don't know if there is a mystical connection. 

You can find more Alan Gardner illustrations in the Junior Classics Illustrated 
series.  

What is the Wild Hunt?


- Skeezix

    
    The legend of the riders of the sidhe (a little late):
    
    The sidhe were/are the followers/people of Danu, the queen of a
    mystical race of immortals that once lived in Eire.  The riders
    of the Sidhe were a band of warriors that helped Lugh of the long
    arm defeat Balor one eye and his Formorians.
    
    the items they carry are:
    
    The Tree - I don't remember... :-(
    
    The Stone - No man who sits on the stone can lie, if he does the
    stone will emit a loud wailing stone.  This become the stone of
    kings at Tara.
    
    The Sword - I forget its name, but it will hit any oppenent.
    
    the Cup - any host fed by this cup will not go hungry...
    
    for a better (and more detailed) description, pick up the riders
    of the sidhe by kenneth c. flint in your local bookstores sf section.
    (he is faithful to the legends, and tells a fairly good story...)
    
    There is no connection to the Wild Hunt, which is another legend
    about the Green Man which I don't remember right now... :-(
    
    grins,
    
    clark.

    part of the difficulty with dredging up Celtic Mythology is that the
    Celts were a people who felt very strongly about the power of the word,
    and although they had written language, or so most believe, they did
    not write down many of the things that were most important to them. 
    Many accounts of the Celts, speak of their worship in the vaguest of
    terms because, some speculate, they held them close against outsiders
    and when they made oaths in public, they were more likely to be sworn
    by "the gods my people swear by." rather than any specific deity.  Most
    things of importance in Celtic society were remembered by the priest
    classes including Druids, the theologian/holy-persons, the Bards,
    historians and spell-singers, and the Brehons, the lawyers and
    diplomats.  These traditions, laws and histories, were passed on orally
    from teacher to student through the generations, right up to the time
    of Patrick and the Christian invasion.  When Patrick drove the "snakes"
    from Ireland, he drove the pagans out and with them, caused the loss of
    many of those traditions.  Christianity has, at times, proved to be
    amazingly intolerant of other traditions and very destructive of them.
    
    
    One note regarding the often cited connection between English Druids
    and the great stone circles at Stonehenge and others.  Geologists and
    Archaeologists have dated the construction of most of the circles to
    times before the advent of druidic practice, to neolithic man.  Most
    now accept that the circles were not built by druids, but by their late
    stone-age predecessors and that the SDruids found them later and may
    have adapted them to their own use.
    
    
    Andrew
    

Whilst agreeing with much of what Andrew Priestley has to say in 400.20,
I'd like to discuss the effect of Christianity on Gaelic culture. Andrew wrote:

    These traditions, laws and histories, were passed on orally
    from teacher to student through the generations, right up to the time
    of Patrick and the Christian invasion.  When Patrick drove the "snakes"
    from Ireland, he drove the pagans out and with them, caused the loss of
    many of those traditions.  Christianity has, at times, proved to be
    amazingly intolerant of other traditions and very destructive of them.

In fact, the Celtic church was instrumental in preserving these traditions,
as the monks actually wrote them down, something that the bards and brehons were
required NOT to do. The Christian churches have proven on many occasions to
be destructive and intolerant of other traditions, but not on this occasion.

The effect of the Celtic church was twofold:
1/.	To destroy the druidic class and to convert Celtic gods into Christian ones
2/.	To write down the previously oral knowledge, thus freezing and preserving it.

The effects of 1/. have meant that many of our current saints have a very pagan feel 
about them (e.g. St. Brighid, who would appear to be none other than Eriu wearing a 
halo). I wonder if the grave weakening of Gaelic culture in Ireland has contributed 
to the weakening of Christianity, since the Church's success in Ireland in the first 
place was brought about by claiming Gaelic gods for its own? 2/. also helped in 
establishing the church, since it gave the monks the knowledge, and hence some of the
power of their rivals.

The actual cause of the demise of the oral tradition in Ireland was twofold:
1/.	The spread of Saxon law (and consequently the death of Gaelic law) destroyed
	the Brehon class, and with it their knowledge, insofar as it was purely oral.
2/.	The demise of the Gaelic nobility and the patronage they provided for bards
	and genealogists.
Both of these, of course, sprang directly from the spread of English power in Ireland,
which took place at in the 17th century (well over a millenium after Patrick)

Even so, the storytelling tradition has been particularly hardy, and it was recently 
possible to hear stories of Fionn Mac Cumhail and C� Chulainn that had never been 
written down (until the Irish Folklore Commision made a determined effort to collect 
them all).
I believe it to be dead now; though people still tell stories, they no 
longer (as far as I know) commit them to memory and attempt word-perfect reproduction.

Could anybody tell me the story of the Red Hand of Ulster?
Anything at all?