Conference tallis::celt

    Leaprechauns have a perspective.
    
    The language is very mature, and developed.
    
    It like that because of its constant use for thousands of years.
    
    I find it very difficult to improve it, I don't find the same problems
    with my english.
    
    An t-Athar Nimhe.
    

    
    The state of the Irish Language in Ireland today - as a spoken/used
    language - is looking pretty bad in my opinion!  How many people
    do you know in Ireland would even be able to hold or understand a
    basic conversation in Gaelic?  Apart from news on tv/radio,
    the occasional program in Gaelic, some official documents etc the
    average Irish person has no contact with tha language!
    
    The kids in school think learning Gaelic is a waste of time - they
    will never use it outside of school so they have no interest in
    making an effort.  Once they leave school they dont have any use
    for it so its very quickly forgotten.
    
    I have several ideas as to why the language is in the state it is
    - the main one being that Ireland is moving with the times - the
    influence of the outside world on a small country with its own language
    will surely have a very big effect on it... the fact that the language
    was 'outlawed' by the English probably put a start to the decline
    of its use....by the time we were able to use gaelic again it was
    too late - the english language was 'in'.  This will probably cost
    me some pretty narky replies but I honestly dont think that very
    many Irish people really care about the state of the language -
    there is just too many other things that are more important to them
    - like unemployment, standard of living, etc etc...
    
    What can be done to improve it?  I dont think it can be improved!
    This is 1988 - the young people of Ireland just dont care enough
    about gaelic to want to 'revive' it ... learning french, german
    etc is of more importance/use to them ... its pretty sad but thats the 
    way it is I think ...
    
      /                                 
    Slan!                             
    
    Ann

    
    This like standard of living etc etc... are indeed important, of
    that there is no question.  However the loss of one's culture (native
    of otherwise) is indeed a sad state.
    
    FWIW
    
    				KO

Re .2

Maith a Cail�n, A�ne

I think you hit the nail on the head with

>    .....I honestly dont think that very
>    many Irish people really care about the state of the language -
>    there is just too many other things that are more important to them
>    - like unemployment, standard of living, etc etc...

I think people will obviously be more concerned with 'basic' survival
issues first, such as making a reasonable living first - and how many
people in Ireland currently are not able even to do _that_ currently.

I honestly think if Ireland weren't such a victim of mistakes made
in the mid-70s by some politicians, which I believe were largely
responsible for a lot of the economic problems the country is
currently having, the country would be a GREAT place to live.

Look at it !  Lovely countryside, reasonable climate - I know not
fantastic in the summer, but not terrible in the winter either - great
people, especially when you consider the hardships a lot of them are
going through just trying to get by.

If Ireland had the economy the US has - for example - we'd be
world beaters !!

Now, the question is....

	What can we do to get the country back on its feet.


Bernard, who's wearing his asbestos suit for some of the replies

    Leaprechauns do not breathe fire.
    
    I notice that some responsents are anticipating some withering
    replies to their inputs on the state of the language.......
    Oh! such little faith in the maturity of the readership.
    
    My tuppence worth.
    1. The language is alive.
    2. There are two types of regular user - Native speakers and
       those who choose to use it as a policy of revivalism.
    3. Most Irish people use it in its english translation - hence
       the unusual constructions in English that you find all over Ireland
       (North & South).
    4. There is a stupid stubbornness adopted towards the language by
       both the protagonists and those who are somewhat apathetic.
       4a THose who support it revival often take a fanatical and
          unrealistic approach towards the use of the language in
          everyday life (especially when dealing with officialdom).
       4b Those who are apathetic, usually quote the economic argument
          when trying to justify their own or others lack of knowlege
          of the tongue.
       Both of those approaches are UNREALISTIC. A, because you cannot
       force people, B, because the economic argument is too narrow
       when considering the value of a language.
    
    Here is an excellent example :
    Malta : 1st language - Maltese (spoken by everybody from the cradle)
            2nd language - ENglish (spoken by everybody from the cradle)
            3rd language - Italian (spoken by many after schooling)
            4th language - Arabic  (spoken by some after schooling also).
      To use the economic argument - why should Maltese be spoken at
      all, let alone as the 1st language ???
      To use the fanatical approach - why should any other language
      be spoken ??
      Malta is not a remote island, and it carries on a lot of business
      with the english speaking world (just like Ireland).
    
    No, I do not approve of the Irish as the 1st language approach to
    the rejuvenation of the language, and no I do not agree with the
    simple economic justification for the decay of the language.
    When I was in my early teens I had a very anti approach to the 
    language that was put there by my educational environment (NOT
    BY MY SCHOOL EDUCATION - BUT BY MY STREET EDUCATION). It was
    fashionable to knock the language amongst all my buddies on the
    street in Galway. Yet my grand-mother was a native speaker from
    the north-eastern side of Galway city, but I could never listen
    to her when she spoke - I deliberately closed my mind to the 
    conversation and I often remember how I used to shut her out.
       In my late teens for some reason that I cannot explain, I 
    altered my attitude and became more open, alas I was out of contact
    with my grandmother by then. Now I am reasonably fluent and
    I often regret the lack of opportunity to make use of what I have.
    I do enjoy Irish language programmes on Radio & TV. My enjoyment
    of this is VALUE to me and I or you CANNOT put a price on it.
    
    I do notice a big change though since my early teens - the antipathy
    towards the language has largely gone, it was replace by apathy
    at first, and now there is positive messages coming through. This
    positiveness is not necessarily followed up by positive action,
    but it is evidence of maturity in the approach.
    
    Irish was almost destroyed, as was many aspects of our culture.
    THe most damage was done by placing a fashionable antipathy into
    the Irish community to many things irish. Sadly many irish people
    took this on board very comfortably, and almost slave-like they
    proceeded to become the greatest enemies of their own culture.
    I am using culture now of which language is but a component.
    
    
    Snake wants English as 1st language and Irish as the medium of
    conversation and fun. There is room for it all.
    I asked a native speaking neighbour who was raised with only English
    until he was 7 years old, and with only Irish thereafter for his
    comment on how difficult it was for him to adapt (he's in his late
    '40's now). His reply was in English and yet it was also in the
    purest Gaelic : "Sure it is no weight on a man" (meaning the burden
    of an extra language).
    That is our problem - we are so hung up on the issue that we regard
    the language as a burden - like I used to.
    
    

                     /
    (Hi Mike! Conas ta tu?!  Happy easter by the way!)
            
    I agree with most of what you said Mike (.5) but I think that you have
    a biased view in that you are looking at the situation through rose
    coloured glasses - you come from an area where there are more native
    speakers than any other part of the country.  You were/are also lucky
    enough to have exposure to native Irish speakers too..which most people
    dont.
    
    Can you honestly say that the Average Joe Soap REALLY cares whether
    the Irish Language is dying when he has more pressing problems like
    the fact that he and half (or all!) of his family are unemployed,
    that the cost of living is so ridiculously high etc etc etc...?
                                                                  
    Have you looked at the current Irish Curriculum in Leaving cert.
    and Intercert levels nowadays? - the course is so boring and
    uninteresting that Im not surprised that the kids think Irish is
    a hopeless waste of time.  There is no sense of 'learning Irish because
    its part of our heritage'; that its what makes us different and special.
    The language will never be revived until you get the kids interested
    and it gets back to the fact that if you are facing a lifetime of
    unemployment after school, no facilities, no money, no prospects
    of improvment, drugs, drink etc etc the significance of the Irish
    the language tends to pale!   How can you improve the 'image' of
    the Irish Language amongst the younger generation?  Its hardly 'trendy'
    to be Irish never mind speaking gaelic!
    
    The adults of Ireland (the ones who learn Irish for 12 or more years
    and forget every word a few weeks after leaving school!) will need
    to be re-educated too - thats going to cost time and money and I
    honestly cant see the Irish nation "wasting" either of those commodities
    right now on something like gaelic.
    
    Like someone said in a previous reply - the Irish are their own
    worst enemies, always have been and probably always will!
                                           
    Anyway Happy Easter everyone - what I wouldnt do for a Cadbury's
    or Rowantrees Easter Egg!  I have 6 Club Milks that Id be willing
    to swop for some Cadbury's chocolate???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Ann

                                       

    While I can't comment on the current state of Irish, from what I've
    read here, it seems a bit similar to the situation of Korean among
    many Korean-American children, particularly second generation children.
    
    What I've seen is antipathy against the language because its supporters
    (ie. the 1st generation parents) are fanatical about wanting the
    children to learn.  I myself resisted learning Korean because I
    often felt forced to do so.  Nowadays, Korean is becoming an
    increasingly large part of my social interaction and it is moving
    me to learn more about my native tongue.
    
    So, in spite of being Korean, I deeply sympathize with both sides
    of the Irish language issue.  My advice is to remove the overt pressure
    for learning the language and provide a social atmosphere that
    encourages the use of Irish without appearing to mandate it.  Now
    that's awfully easy to say, but to actually put the idea into practice
    is a different matter.
    
    Wook (Lephrachauns call me Maise [for now])

Ok, then if you're not prepared to accept the economic arguments against
the sad decay of Irish usage, and Ann and myself would seem to be in
broad agreement there, look at the way the language is taught.

Firstly, for those not very familiar with the language, I think
speakers would agree with me in saying it is a highly irregular language.
Yes, it has a grammar, but like a lot of other languages, it has
plenty of exceptions to the rules.  Also the pronunciation and
usage varies enormously, depending where you are.

For example, most regions would agree that 'Look at that' would
translate as 'Feach ar seo'.  However, I've been told by native
Carna speakers - Galway area - that it's rude to use that expression,
and you use 'Breathnu', with a 'u' fada, instead of 'Feach'.

The point is that it's heard to learn when all you have is a dry
book and rote teaching.  Now, my eldest went to a _great_ Irish
speaking school in Bray, Co. Wicklow for a year and _loved_ it.

She had used no Irish before going there and yet had little trouble
in picking it up.  The trouble was people were _screaming_ for
places in that school because - I believe -

	a) It is very good.
	b) The paisti learn Irish.

Of course, with the general cutbacks in education in Ireland,
everyone is suffering.  So again economics raises it's ugly
head.

So I come back to my original argument.  Fix some of the basic
problems with the country and then people will have time and
energy to devote to some of the 'luxuries', which - unfortunately -
speaking Irish is.

Two other pieces of trivia.  One, the Bray school is run by a great
Co. Galway woman who is devoted to the job, children and language.
Two, you'd be surprised how much Irish you retain Ann when the rust
is shaken out from between the ears.  I think a lot of people 'forget'
the Irish because they're embarrassed to be heard using it, probably
like myself, because they can't speak it all that well.  However,
practise _does_ make perfect.
                                       
So how about more of in this notes file ??

    Leaprechauns would put it differently.
    
    Re .6
    Ann, if I was unemployed and in the chronic manner that you describe,
    surely a couple of things spring to mind.
    1. Apathy and resignation (this attribute pervades the unemployed
       in Ireland). What languages one speaks has nothing to do with
       this area. In fact is one is consigned to a life on the dole
       then surely time spent in education (free of charge of course)
       is one way of relieving the boredom.
    2. Resilience, some of the unemployed are determined to find work.
       Again language has no role to play. Everybody in Ireland is
       conversant in English. They are for the most part equiped to
       find work in many economies. If they can speak Irish and they
       emigrate then they are in the same boat as th eemigrant Maltese.
    
    Now for clarification purposes : I heard gaelic speakers but I NEVER
    listened to them - I was conditioned to reject the language.
    I was raised in Galway city when some of the "garrison town" mentality
    was still prevalent. Gaelic speakers were poor, ignorant, backward,
    stupid, and ridiculous. They were a culture apart (like the man
    who hails from Dublin 4 looks upon the "projected" image of the
    wild mountain men who populate the west of Ireland). My city is
    not like that anymore and in the past 15 years it has taken on
    board a cosmopolitanism that EMBRACES the cultural values of west
    alongside the other cosmopolitan values on an equal footing.
    In this new environment, I have heard MORE spoken gaelic than when
    I was younger and did not want to listen. 
    On Bernard's Bray experience, - I fully concur with your remarks
    on the quality of education in this area. The woman in Bray is
    the living proof that knowledge is not based in language, and that
    bi or tri-lingualism is not knowledge.
    
    We must improve the approach as Wook so intuitivly puts it, and
    stop looking for the excuses as to why we must not try.
    
    Snake sees a valuable debate.
    

    re: -1
    
    I still maintain tho' Mike that if people have more pressing problems
    on their minds they could care less if a language that a very large
    percentage of the population dont/cant use, is forgotten forever!
    
    I wasnt putting Galway 'down' either - its one of the nicest towns
    Ive lived in - but I still think that you have a small advantage over
    other areas of Ireland because there are more native speakers or
    more people 'aware' of the language due to the fact that the west
    of Ireland has a history of a good native speaking population
    
    Re Point 1. 
    
    > In fact if one is consigned to a life on the dole then surely
    > time spend in education (free of charge of course) is one way
    > of relieving the boredom
                
    - Somehow I cant see someone who is unemployed going to Gaelic classes
      - thats a luxury! Surely he/she would attend a class that would
      either help them find a new, more viable skill or else one that
      they could USE more in everyday life?  I come from a small town
      in Tipperary where unemployment is really high - most (granted
      NOT all and I am NOT making a generalisation just trying to clarify
      my point!)  of the people there are unemployed because there just
      is NO work in the area - they have skills that are no longer needed
      or no skills at all....what use of Gaelic classes have these people?
      - when I go home and see friends that havent worked for years and
      cant see any prospect of getting work all I see is anger, frustration
      and a general sense of apathy...they would laugh at the idea!
                                                                   
      But thats not the only side of the cause of the decline of the
      language  - just one facet and I think an important one.
    
      How are we to "improve the approach" ?  The Irish language has
      been in this condition for a long time - the longer it remains
      like this the less chance there is of getting it 'back'...no one
      would be more pleased than me to see it happen but I really cant
      honestly say I believe it will...
                                             
    Ann
    

    I was in Ballyferriter (Co. Kerry) at the weekend and in the pub
    everyone was speaking Gaelic. 

 ------- Forwarded mail received on 31-Oct-1992 at 17:10:09 -------

From:	VBORMC::"GAELIC-L%[email protected]" 
	"GAELIC Language Bulletin Board"
To:	Multiple Recipients of <GAELIC-L%[email protected]>
Subj:	Daon-�ireamh Thuaisceart �ireann 1991


Th�inig r�amh-thortha� an daon�irimh amach i rith na seachtaine.

Amach as an daonra ioml�n de 1,502,385, dubhairt 131,974 go rabh labhairt
na Gaeilge acu.

Dubhairt 142,003 go rabh Gaeilg acu i m�dh eighinteacht - labhairt, l�igheamh,
n� scr�obhadh.

F�gann seo go rabh an d� oiread daoine s�sta a r� go rabh Gaeilg acu i
dtuaisceart na h�ireann is a dubhairt an rud c�anna in Albain.

Ar nd�ighe, n� thug an cheist aghaidh ar fhadhb na l�omhthachta, ach is
fi� dh� rud eile a chur sa mhe�:

. ba �irde ar�s na figi�ir� d� gcuirf� ceist f� l�on na ndaoine a
  THUIGEAS an Ghaeilg (gan a bheith in ann � a labhairt n� a l�igheamh)

. t� fhios agam Gaeilge�ir� a dhi�ltaigh an fhoirm a l�onadh cionnas
  gur i mB�arla a bh� s�.

< Preliminary results of the 1991 census of Northern Ireland show that
  131,974 people out of a total of 1,502,385 claimed to be able to speak
  Irish, and in all 142,003 claimed to know Irish in some mode - speak,
  read or write.

Ciar�n � Duibh�n.

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