Conference tallis::celt

    
    
    	I think the Wall Street Journal carried a similiar story yesterday.
    
    	This would have been the first time that the W.S.J. has ever
    	carried a story about the MacBride Principals.
         
    	Who is the Mulligan character ??	;-)
    
            
    	keVin
    
    

    
    
    	Correction ..
    
    	Change the newspaper from the Wall Street Journal 
    	to the New York Times.
    
    
    
    	keVin
    

      Well Joe this subject has clearly sparked a very heated discussion
    with the noters of this file.  So all of you out there count to
    ten before making anymore replies.  Maybe the discussion has taken
    on this level of involvement because of the perception that the
    issue is so large that it would be close to impossible to effect
    any reasonable outcome. Or is it that it doesn't affect us directly
    so its of minimal importance.  If you are from N.H. call your Rep.
    and get thier attention, just asking a question sometimes stimulates
    interest.
    
    paddy
     

      Now that about 6 states have MacBride-like principles, have any
    states disinvested from some of their pension fund investments due
    to violations of the MacBride-like principles?  i.e., How effective
    has the legislation been thus far?
    
    -george

      Yes there have been some disinvestment and what was disinvested
    was reinvested into companies that recognize the MacBride principles.
      
      The effects so far have been significant in that there is a strong
    lobbing effort to defeat the Bills where ever they are being introduced.
      
      There are some big companies there that are getting quite nervous
    over this bill and rightfully so.
    
      The bill, as I view it is trying to force equallity in the workforce.
    I don't see that as all so bad a thing to do.  Heck the world is
    trying to force South Africa to adopt similar measures. I'm not
    implying that S.A. and N.I are in the same boat but there are some
    similarities that seem to exist between them.
    
    paddy

    Ah, go on now paddy, be a bold lad...I think it a tremendously apt
    comparision, that of South Africa and the north of Ireland.  Perhaps
    the striking similarites will lead the more thoughtful among us
    who balk at the analogy to consider the huge potential for hypocrisy
    which lurks just beneath the "socially accepted" concern for the
    oppressed in S.A., as compared to the "proper" outrage directed
    at the behaviour of the minority community in the North.  The blunt
    truth is, and always has been, that racism, discrimination, and
    the abuse of human rights is NOT acceptable, be it in Africa OR
    in Europe. It must be universally castigated and combatted when-
    ever or WHEREVER, regardless of the "social proper" price to be
    paid.
     

.	Who is the Mulligan character ??	;-)
 
        
    Topaz's golf partner?
    
    
    -Dermot

Will the MacBride Principles reduce suffering by Catholics in NI?
They could, and I sincerely hope that they do.

Will they bring peace to NI?  I can't imagine their doing anything
to bring peace, because they don't address the issue of soverignty.

In fact, if the discrimination against the Catholics of NI ended,
I bet that support for a united Ireland would drop significantly
in NI.  Not that the people would want any less to be united, but 
simply because it is bad times that force people to act.  

In SA, this sort of reasoning has led to the odd situation where
those who want freedom and power for the black majority argue for
actions that will, in the short run, greatly increase suffering for
the black majority.  (I'm referring to divestment - even Sullivan
now favors divestment, because he says the Sullivan Principles
haven't worked.)  

Stories from NI sometimes hint at the same thing - actions that seem 
designed to polarize the communities even further, thus increasing the
suffering of the oppressed majority.  

Maybe I can put it this way:  if those who are working so hard for
NI's freedom had a choice of obtaining it, at the cost of great
suffering for the people of NI, or of an end to discrimmination and
a return to prosperity and civil liberties, but still under British
rule, which would they choose?

I'm not saying which is the right choice.  I'm just saying that the
MacBride principles can only help if those who fight for NI's freedom 
also support them.

I'd like to hear your comments.

	Larry

    While it is true the MacBride Principles do not refer to the issue
    of soverignty, they do represent a major step forward for Catholics
    in the area of civil liberties.
    
    It is important for several reasons.  First it focuses worldwide
    attention on Northern Ireland, and specifically, the plight
    of oppressed Catholics.  Second, it will encourage companies in
    Northern Ireland to leave religion out of hiring practices, jobs,
    working environment, etc. for fear of lost investment.  Eventually,
    and hopefully, this will put Catholics in a position of power, which
    if anything, will help in their cause for independence.
    
    I think that Britain fears MacBride principles because it will be
    a rolling stone for other political and economic sacrifices in Northern
    Ireland, and other Celtic provinces like Scotland and Wales.  I'm
    also sure they don't appreciate the comparisons (MacBride/Sullivan)
    of their "NI military training ground" to the Republic of South
    Africa, who they dearly comdemn every day on the BBC.

    Leaprechauns report developments
    
    In the context of this note there is some news for ye.
    The Fair employment agency (British government appointed body),
    which is charged with monitoring discrimination in employment
    throughout N.I. is under threat. There are moves afoot to abolish
    it by the Westminster gvmt.
    
    Snake is topical.
    

    
    
    	The first Legislative Hearing concerning the MacBride Principles, 
    	is scheduled for Wednesday, January 27th at 2:00 p.m. in Concord N.H.
                                                                       
    
    	Several Local/National Guest Speakers are scheduled to attend.

                               
    
    
    	keVin
    

>    The Fair employment agency (British government appointed body),
>    which is charged with monitoring discrimination in employment
>    throughout N.I. is under threat. There are moves afoot to abolish
>    it by the Westminster gvmt.

America's dear demented president has found a more effective method 
for getting rid of agencies whose actions he doesn't like: appoint to
head them people who don't think they should exist.  It did wonders
with our Environmental Protection Agency - did you know that there is 
no official proof that acid rain hurts trees or lakes?  But I digress.


>    I'm also sure they don't appreciate the comparisons (MacBride/Sullivan)
>    of their "NI military training ground" to the Republic of South
>    Africa, who they dearly comdemn every day on the BBC.

Funny, it was the British government who STARTED apartheid in South Africa -
the SA whites just continued it after independence.  Of course, the Great 
Britain of today ought not to be held accountable for all of the crimes of 
the Great Britain of yesterday, but at least they ought to acknowledge 
their past involvement.

	Larry

    Hang on, hang on, Thatcher does not condemn South Africa on the
    BBC, she's a staunch supporter of the bloody place.
    
    And despite many recent indications of the Tory Government attempting
    to control the BBC, it is still independent of them, as for example,
    the recent Panorama programme on Thatcher's 1000 Year Reich, which
    featured ex-colleagues who criticised her for her style and policies.
    There was then a phone-in on Radio 4 the next day where the BBC
    was criticised by callers for not being adulatory.
    
    Phillip

    re: .12
    
    I don't believe the argument on acid rain is whether or not it
    hurts trees, lakes, cows or whatever, but whether there is anything
    significant one can do about it as trees themselves cause most of
    the problem with acid rain.  And, it seems to me quite reasonable
    to do away with government bureaucratic monsters that serve no pur-
    pose other then to fatten employment rolls or political patronage.

re .14:  "...trees themselves cause most of the problem with acid rain."

They sure do!  Almost the whole of Germany's Black Forest is dying,
and that's causing a terrible problem!  However, Reagan (and his people) 
have never yet admitted that acid rain is a problem - they haven't even 
gotten so far as to say it's a problem no one can do anything about.

But as you say, it's beside the point - I meant it as an example of
technique that was (hopefully) humorous.  Also, I wanted to make it clear 
that I am not bashing Britain, my own country has the same kind of problem.

Certainly bureaucracies of the type you describe should be eliminated,
but were you talking about the EPA, or were you talking about a group
that publishes figures on discrimination in an area where the government
wants to ignore such problems?  Or is it some other orgainzation to which 
you are referring?  

	Keep on smiling,
	Larry

Re. .9

I have one or two problems with this reply, although I agree with
the central point that Catholic unemployment is much higher and
this is wrong and should be put right.

>    While it is true the MacBride Principles do not refer to the issue
>    of soverignty, they do represent a major step forward for Catholics
>    in the area of civil liberties.

Catholics in Northern Ireland have exactly the same civil liberties
as Protestants.    These are (almost) exactly the same civil liberties
as British citizens.   Discrimination against Catholics in public
organisations has nearly gone.   Discrimination in private companies
is still a problem, and is being dealt with.
    
>    It is important for several reasons.  First it focuses worldwide
>    attention on Northern Ireland, and specifically, the plight
>    of oppressed Catholics.  Second, it will encourage companies in
>    Northern Ireland to leave religion out of hiring practices, jobs,
>    working environment, etc. for fear of lost investment.  Eventually,
>    and hopefully, this will put Catholics in a position of power, which
>    if anything, will help in their cause for independence.

Catholics in NI are not oppressed.

Lost investment hits both communities equally.    Unemployment
breeds terrorism.    The MacBride principles therefore actually
encourage violence.    Blackmail from American pressure groups in British
affairs is no more welcome than similar British blackmail in America
would be.

Catholics in NI do not have a cause for independence.   They are always
either going to have to be part of Britain, part of a united Ireland,
or part of an independent NI.      Freedom for Catholics might
turn out to mean oppression for non-Catholics.     In fact, if the
British left it would mean oppression for both Protestants and Catholics
because their standard of living in a united Ireland or independent NI
would be much lower.

I doubt you'd like it if "world-wide attention" was focussed on
parts of south Boston.

>    I think that Britain fears MacBride principles because it will be
>    a rolling stone for other political and economic sacrifices in Northern
>    Ireland, and other Celtic provinces like Scotland and Wales.  I'm
>    also sure they don't appreciate the comparisons (MacBride/Sullivan)
>    of their "NI military training ground" to the Republic of South
>    Africa, who they dearly comdemn every day on the BBC.

Britain spends vast sums of money on Northern Ireland, and this policy
gets more unpopular with British voters year by year.   The
reasons they do so are (1) the majority of NI citizens consider themselves
British and want to remain so and (2) if Britain pulled out there
would be serious hardship and bloodshed, because neither the Irish
Army nor the United Nations would be able to keep order.

The MacBride principles benefit no-one except MacBride, who gets
to see his name in the papers a lot.

Ireland is a wonderful country and well worth a visit, but sentiment
and lack of information are a dangerous mixture.   Please check the facts
and keep your hand on your wallet when the man with the charming Irish
accent and the collecting box next pays a call.    When he says he
wants money for "oppressed Catholics" he may mean the IRA.

Shane

    Shane, I can't possibly tell you, in such a limited format just
    how grand it was to read such a biased, narrow-minded, anachronistic
    compliation of dated, evasive, pejorative propaganda in aid of what
    is quite clearly, for those apart from the 'imperial' domain, an
    exercise in colonial attitudes and behaviour long since branded
    as both sadistic and prejudicial. I do so hope that my impressions
    are clearly stated. Cheers!
    
     

    Leaprechauns write ruefully.
    
    This news should probably be dedicated to its own note, however
    I think that he wouldn't have minded seeing it here.
    
    I learnt in the past hour the Sean McBride, the only holder of both
    the Nobel prize for peace and the Lenin prize for peace has died.
    He had been ill recently and obviously did not recover.
    
    He was the son of Willie Mc Bride and Maud Gonne-McBride.
    He was educated in Paris and was a barrister ( I believe).
    His father was executed by the British in 1916 as a leader of the
    uprising. He joined the IRA and fought in the War of Independence
    1919-21. He was a runner of dispatches during the Treaty negotiations.
    He was opposed to the Treaty and was part of the Four Courts garrison
    that surrendured to Michael Collins. He shared the same cell as
    one of the four executed (murdered) prisoners chosen to be shot
    in reprisal for the assassination of a pro-treaty T.D.
    He remained in Sinn Fein after De Valera left to form Fi�nna F�il.
    He became Chief of Staff of the IRA during the 1930's. He left the
    IRA to join a new political party called Clann na Poblachta. He
    joined with Fine Gael in a governemt in the late 1940's. He became
    opposed to Dr. Noel Browne's, "mother & child" scheme which brought
    down that government. He later founded Amnesty International.
    He was an eminent constitutional lawyer, amongst many other things.
    
    I'm sure there are others who could add to this man's legacy to
    his people, and to the world's people.
    
    Snake says - ar dheis D� go raibh a anam d�lis.
    
    

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 1520             Thursday  3-Mar-1988            Circulation :  5662 

        VNS MAIN NEWS .....................................   93 Lines


    The N Ireland Minister has announced proposals to make job selection on the
    basis of religion (in N Ireland only) illegal, and subject to fines and
    possible imprisonment. It is apparently primarily aimed at discrimination
    against Roman Catholics, but an RC trade unionist on radio 4 this morning
    said that there was also discrimination against protestants and that the
    legislation should apply both ways and to Britain as a whole. It will only
    apply to companies with 25 or more employees.

    Re .19
    
    All well and dandy but
    
    1) There's no timetable on when this job selection must be in place.
       Is it 5 years, 50 years, 500 years?
    2) The proposals should have come from the British Parliament, not
       Northern Ireland.
    3) Does that RC trade unionist understand that the unemployment
       rate for Catholic males in 2.5 times higher than their Protestant
       counterparts?  VNS doesn't give figures, but I do.
    
    Sounds to me like Northern Ireland politicians are doing this in the
    face of recent farses in their policy (Stalker, Birmingham, Aughnacloy),
    upcoming St. Patrick's day, and the MacBride efforts.
    
    Time heals all wounds, and wounds all heals...

    Tom King, the NI Minister, _is_ a British MP and member of the British
    Government. The farces you so rightly point to are the policies
    and actions of the British Government.
    
    Phillip